So after playing the deck some in two mans and 8 mans on modo I have a working list. tell me what you guys think about it. The gnaw's to the bone are strictly for the sheer amount of burn i face online, I don't know if I'd actually use them in paper.
Please use the DECK tags, it makes them look more pretty.
The list itself looks solid but I would suggest always having 4 Ingot Chewer in the board. You need it for tron and affinity, 4 of because they are good in multiples. Maybe cut a sudden death, 5 1BB kills spells seems excesive with the anger of the gods, dismember has some functionality in the twin MU too while also serving an important role in others. Burn is a very real threat so I suggest packing the hate at the GP (maybe even up it to three and take the shriekmaw out of the board).
You also don't need 4 Demonic Dread and you can easily get by with three which will open another slot in the mainboard (probably for another macabre, beast within or avalanche riders). It's good to have two of the cascade spells but you almost never want to see three because you will likely draw a living end by that point. (Keep in mind cascade is a may to cast).
thank you for that lengthy explanation of choices, It actually helps a lot.
I would like to comment on the Domri inclusion, I was playing the deck in the past and I had domri in the deck for the same reason rougue included it (for control) and while i found it to be helpful at times I never found it to be insane. I eventually cut it from the list and opted to be more proactive with the deck like splashing white for disruption.
I am going to be testing a little today and will post a list later for you guys to yell at me for how i built it wrong haha.
Also I has anyone been running into tron with maindeck relics? I have and its making playing this deck a pain in the butt on modo.
No problem I love this deck.
It's standard issue for tron to have 4x Relic of Progenitus main, less so with the decline of jund. It's a pain and is pretty much the only reason the match is difficult at all. It's super difficult to play around. The key is to slow roll your 1 mana cyclers. At the same time as laying down the land destruction so they can never get tron online. You need to feed the relic just enough that you have enough critters in the bin (be very precise with fetch lands) so a living end is threatening but not so much you're out of gas. You need them to force them to pop the relic then after the relic ability has resolved cycle all of your cheap cyclers so you have a really good board anyway.
Another way to force the issue is if you have a fulminator mage on board and lethal in yard you can cast living end and not sac the fulminator mage. If they pop the relic you get an opportuinity to blow up two lands with the mage and if they don't you get a really big field. It's a tricky situation and plays out a lot of the time like a punisher mechanic. It's a lot easier on paper because of the reads you get. The timing is absolutely key and while it might not be the most skill intensive match up it is one where a single incorrect sequence of cycling or land drops can end the game for you.
1.) Can be cast for 1 Mana, 4 Life or any combination therein.
2.) Deals with pesky cards like Ooze, Thalia, Cannonist, Exarch and Goyf (that X/X+1 toughness is sometime a make or break while setting up) early on.
3.) Sometimes Shriekmaw is just garbage that kills your own stuff and has limited recursion.
Sudden Death is not for any of those matches (Ooze, Thalia, Goyf). It's almost strictly for Splinter Twin and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker decks. Without storm/eggs in the format you practically don't see Cannonist out of them. Instead they'll set up spell skite and/or counterspell protection for their combo, or try to do it after you've rolled an LE. Sudden Death gets around every counterspell and spellskite and stops a kiki jiki combo dead. I think it's more run Sudden Death and Dismember rather than an or scenario.
Also, shriekmaw never kills your own stuff because it will always kill what it did on the first evoke, or something better (Baring ooze or DRS shenanaganary). Unless you make the meta call, it is a sideboard card because it can be dead.
@TheRogue
Thanks for the reply, it makes a lot of sense. I've never been a fan of the spell lands because I rarely feel threatened post LE and the times that I do I can usually back it up with hard casted fatties if I need to. I could see some utility against jund and maybe control where they really try to grind you out. I think I'll try domri out in my board soon but the colorless lands feel a little too greedy for my taste.
Wow, that looks like quite the list. I haven't given Domri Rade much thought in this deck but on paper he looks like the ultimate control hate card. It sounded like Domri didn't do much for you in those games though. Do you think it's just because you didn't play control or he is just awkward in general, sideboard only perhaps?
The mana also looks super awkward with no scars fastlands and tonnes of shocks and three colorless sources! You stated a couple of times that you couldn't find an LE on time. Do you think that is because of your mana and the bolt you have to take to cycle on T1? You also have 0 Jungle Weaver and only 3 Street Wraith. Do you think Domri is adequate replacement for cycling in games where you don't need LE on 3/4? The 3-3 split on mages and riders bugs me a bit too, is your curve okay like that?
I can't sell them for more than 3.35 each to bots, a week ago I could sell them for 3.65+. It just feels so gross when you go 2-1 and then 1-1 three times in a row and loose all of your profit to a **** draw when you 0-1.
I don't mind the online meta too much but my local meta is garbage. I played 4 mono red aggro decks in a row at my LGS at FNM which appearently isn't that unusual because it makes up more than 40% of my meta. I am dying to play against something that isn't mono red.
I wrote a program to goldfish Goblin Charbelcher. Wasn't as difficult as I had expected. Wouldn't be that hard to do the same for any non-interactive deck. Getting that sort of program to work with Magic Online would be the difficult part.
Though, as a bot programmer myself, it would be possible.
I think it's pretty trivial to write an AI for any combo or dedicated aggro strategy that can play well to perfect. I think the difficult part would be having the AI be able to figure out how to pilot any combo deck (I think doing that for aggro would be a lot easier). Most pros can pick up any deck and figure out the optimal way to play it and a good magic AI should be able to do that.
While you could just have a bunch of dedicated AI's for each combo deck programming one AI that can figure out what combo it is playing.
So first time posting and i have a question, exactly which version of the deck is better? the spirit guide version? or the more stable versions that splash white for sin collector and stuff? i feel the gp top 8 version that had the anger of the gods is missing out a lot on not having avalanche riders.
i'd post my list but my list is just a copy of a bunch of recent top 8 list.
for reference though the list I am talking about in the white splash version is the list run by _shipitholla in the vs's video against twoo.
anyways yeah, I just read back on the last 30 pages and now im stuck on what is the proper way to build the deck. Looking to build the deck for the richmond GP coming up. I already play it on modo so i can test any version i see fit.
I'll try and sum up most of those thirty pages:
SSG is largely a personal prefrence and lists make it far with or without it. It's good against control when you can power out T2 Fulminator Mage or BW and good against aggro when you can power out a T3 Living end with an extra dude in the bin. However if the situations are reversed and you have early LD vs aggro and early LE vs control you'll be worse off than if you had Jungle Weaver in that spot. The list with anger of the gods that made it far at antwerp likely faced a lot of aggressive decks like merfolk, burn, and affinity where land destruction would be less than stellar (which there was a lot of, I played 4 super aggresive decks there).
16 short of a full deck, from here it's generally good to pick and choose from:
4 or More additional cyclers:
Pale Recluse - Good against control and affinity because blocks collenades, resto angels, and inkmoth nexi all day. It's easier to cast than Jungle Weaver and lets You splash White.
Jungle Weaver - If you're heavy on the lands he might be your choice, he fills a similar role as Pale Recluse but is a little bigger and can't fix mana.
Twisted Abomination - Fixes mana and is mostly invunerable to bolts, if you fear lot's of divine verdicts I suggest running this guy.
Valley Rannet - Get's the beats in and is the best at fixing mana, but is vunerable to bolt.
Archetiects of Will - If you want to get your speed on this is the guy to do it. He is another 1 mana cycler but again he dies to a bolt.
2 or more additional lands:
Kessig Wolf Run - Gets around lingering souls tokens but has a high variance and is never a land you want to see in your opener.
Dryad Arbor - Allows you to cast demonic dread on an empty field, which is highly relavent against Control and Tron. He messes up combat math on a verdant catacombs and can be found on forest cyclers. In most matches you don't want to see it in your opener but in control and tron it's okay.
Beast Within - In our deck this is as close to an instant speed vindicate as was ever printed. I highly recommend playing 4 in your 75 due to the versatility they provide. They can hit lands, planeswalkers, grave hate enchantments, and creatures with troublesome abilities.
Avalanche Riders - More recursive land destruction. I feel like beast within is better against control because of the instant type, but more land destruction never hurt
7 or less Flex Slots - You can fill up pretty quick in the other sections and should have at most 7 flex spots:
Faerie Macarbe - Good against Jund, Meliera Pod, and key against affinity. It's also good against aggro and midrange when you're forced to living end again after they've built up a board. It also counters death rite shaman activations.
Shriekmaw - Another staple against scavenging ooze, it also works wonders against pod and merfolk.
Simian Spirit Guide - This increases the varience of the deck while also increasing the potential power. If you do run these make sure you are running at least 18 cyclers to make up for the lost consistency.
Anger of the Gods - Another good option against aggro and meleria pod. It acts as a little better than Demonic Dreads 4-7 against most decks where you want it.
Anything else you want that costs 3 or more mana
Sideboarding Options
Any of the Flex or LD Cards
Dismember - Good against super aggro and twin, however I think in many cases sudden death and a number of anger of the gods is a better combination.
Bow of Nylea - Has marginal use in the burn match up, most of its use will come from long and grindy matches where you want to cast multiple living ends, you can recycle most of your deck and get constant value.
Hammer of Pruphoros - Strictly for the control match up. You are able to have a constant stream of 3/3s and represnt lethal at any point of an LE.
Brindle Boar - A premier level hate card against burn, usually you gain 8 life which is enough to mount a huger counter offensive.
Spike Feeder - Burn enemy number 1. He plays around skull crack and flames of the firebrand at the same time as having marginal combat utility. He is better than brindle boar in this sense but is harder on the mana.
Gnaw to the Bone - When lifegain says go big or go home. In a typical game the first activation will gain 4-6 life and the second will get 6-14 which puts the game way out of burns reach. It also allows you to race aggro decks.
Slaughter Games - For the tron and splintertwin match up. You can usually resolve this in a timely manner and take out their win cons which puts the game out of their reach. Tron name: Wurmcoil Engine, Twin: Name Splinter Twin. It also wrecks other niche archtypes like Ad Naeseum or polymorph decks.
Blood Moon - If you play with enough land cyclers you know the hilarity that comes when they board in this card. It's almost never relavent and all your guys can cycle for 2 or R. This would come in against tron, control, and any deck with a greedy mana base. It seems like a win more considering the land hate we already pack.
Choke Against blue decks it's a better version of Blood Moon but
Boil Makes a lot of players scoop it up when uncountered, I feel it is much better than choke.
The most important thing is to be comfortable with a build of the deck. Because you don't interact until turn three it is critical to know when to mulligan and sequence your lands and cyclers correctly. Incorrect sequencing cost me a lot of close games when I was starting with the deck, that extra 1 or 2 life you get from fetches or shocks will add up and be relevant.
Not me, but I have a good friend who worked out in an oil field in the middle of nowhere. The employees were given satellite internet and he could play MTGO just fine, he could even double cue (which I would only suggest once you're really good at MTGO). His situation might be a bit different because it was company provided and likely better service than what you would get as a single customer.
I guess the games I had were pretty unrepresentative then because they were multiple rancor draws and I never saw youngwolf, or elite I just kinda played 3 or 4 dudes which he killed with double bolts to get past vines and then I wiffed for a few turns and died, and that was how the whole series went.
In a more represantive game is brindle boar really enough? It seems like it negates a single fireblast which doesn't seem like a whole lot. What other options are there?
I've been stopped pretty hard lately against burn. They just vaporize every creature I lay and lead me out of the game with curse of the pierced heart. Brindle Boar seems like nowhere near enough to help out. Ranger's guile from the board maybe? You guys have any suggestions?
Considering they won't have it back by christmas and the dev team won't be in session until the new year. I predict a gimped version of the daily events during the second first week of January Febraury.
So:
02/04/14-02/06/14 (Specifically at the end of the scheduled down time on the 5th)
His list comes to 56, so I think he just forgot to include them.
Please use the DECK tags, it makes them look more pretty.
The list itself looks solid but I would suggest always having 4 Ingot Chewer in the board. You need it for tron and affinity, 4 of because they are good in multiples. Maybe cut a sudden death, 5 1BB kills spells seems excesive with the anger of the gods, dismember has some functionality in the twin MU too while also serving an important role in others. Burn is a very real threat so I suggest packing the hate at the GP (maybe even up it to three and take the shriekmaw out of the board).
You also don't need 4 Demonic Dread and you can easily get by with three which will open another slot in the mainboard (probably for another macabre, beast within or avalanche riders). It's good to have two of the cascade spells but you almost never want to see three because you will likely draw a living end by that point. (Keep in mind cascade is a may to cast).
No problem I love this deck.
It's standard issue for tron to have 4x Relic of Progenitus main, less so with the decline of jund. It's a pain and is pretty much the only reason the match is difficult at all. It's super difficult to play around. The key is to slow roll your 1 mana cyclers. At the same time as laying down the land destruction so they can never get tron online. You need to feed the relic just enough that you have enough critters in the bin (be very precise with fetch lands) so a living end is threatening but not so much you're out of gas. You need them to force them to pop the relic then after the relic ability has resolved cycle all of your cheap cyclers so you have a really good board anyway.
Another way to force the issue is if you have a fulminator mage on board and lethal in yard you can cast living end and not sac the fulminator mage. If they pop the relic you get an opportuinity to blow up two lands with the mage and if they don't you get a really big field. It's a tricky situation and plays out a lot of the time like a punisher mechanic. It's a lot easier on paper because of the reads you get. The timing is absolutely key and while it might not be the most skill intensive match up it is one where a single incorrect sequence of cycling or land drops can end the game for you.
Sudden Death is not for any of those matches (Ooze, Thalia, Goyf). It's almost strictly for Splinter Twin and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker decks. Without storm/eggs in the format you practically don't see Cannonist out of them. Instead they'll set up spell skite and/or counterspell protection for their combo, or try to do it after you've rolled an LE. Sudden Death gets around every counterspell and spellskite and stops a kiki jiki combo dead. I think it's more run Sudden Death and Dismember rather than an or scenario.
Also, shriekmaw never kills your own stuff because it will always kill what it did on the first evoke, or something better (Baring ooze or DRS shenanaganary). Unless you make the meta call, it is a sideboard card because it can be dead.
@TheRogue
Thanks for the reply, it makes a lot of sense. I've never been a fan of the spell lands because I rarely feel threatened post LE and the times that I do I can usually back it up with hard casted fatties if I need to. I could see some utility against jund and maybe control where they really try to grind you out. I think I'll try domri out in my board soon but the colorless lands feel a little too greedy for my taste.
The mana also looks super awkward with no scars fastlands and tonnes of shocks and three colorless sources! You stated a couple of times that you couldn't find an LE on time. Do you think that is because of your mana and the bolt you have to take to cycle on T1? You also have 0 Jungle Weaver and only 3 Street Wraith. Do you think Domri is adequate replacement for cycling in games where you don't need LE on 3/4? The 3-3 split on mages and riders bugs me a bit too, is your curve okay like that?
I think it's pretty trivial to write an AI for any combo or dedicated aggro strategy that can play well to perfect. I think the difficult part would be having the AI be able to figure out how to pilot any combo deck (I think doing that for aggro would be a lot easier). Most pros can pick up any deck and figure out the optimal way to play it and a good magic AI should be able to do that.
While you could just have a bunch of dedicated AI's for each combo deck programming one AI that can figure out what combo it is playing.
I'll try and sum up most of those thirty pages:
SSG is largely a personal prefrence and lists make it far with or without it. It's good against control when you can power out T2 Fulminator Mage or BW and good against aggro when you can power out a T3 Living end with an extra dude in the bin. However if the situations are reversed and you have early LD vs aggro and early LE vs control you'll be worse off than if you had Jungle Weaver in that spot. The list with anger of the gods that made it far at antwerp likely faced a lot of aggressive decks like merfolk, burn, and affinity where land destruction would be less than stellar (which there was a lot of, I played 4 super aggresive decks there).
The absolute undinable core of the deck is:
4 Street Wraith
4 Monstorous Carbid
4 Deadshot Minotaur
Disruption 4 (4+ needed)
4 Fulmintor Mage
Combo Fixed 11
4 Violent Outburst
3 Demonic Dread
3 Living End
Land 17 (2+ Needed)
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Ingot Chewer
2 Sudden Death
3 Ricochet Trap
16 short of a full deck, from here it's generally good to pick and choose from:
4 or More additional cyclers:
2 or more additional lands:
3 or more additional land destruction
7 or less Flex Slots - You can fill up pretty quick in the other sections and should have at most 7 flex spots:
Sideboarding Options
The most important thing is to be comfortable with a build of the deck. Because you don't interact until turn three it is critical to know when to mulligan and sequence your lands and cyclers correctly. Incorrect sequencing cost me a lot of close games when I was starting with the deck, that extra 1 or 2 life you get from fetches or shocks will add up and be relevant.
But beware if you're playing against goblins that card can and will wreck you.
In a more represantive game is brindle boar really enough? It seems like it negates a single fireblast which doesn't seem like a whole lot. What other options are there?
Posts that contain nothing but strategy advice are off-topic in the Rulings forum. Spam warning issued. -Carsten
DrSpike already beat you to the punch.
Considering they won't have it back by christmas and the dev team won't be in session until the new year. I predict a gimped version of the daily events during the
secondfirst week ofJanuaryFebraury.So:
02/04/14-02/06/14 (Specifically at the end of the scheduled down time on the 5th)