Tyrant's Choice is pretty baller. One-sided Flame Rift is definitely playable in budget formats (Pauper/Peasant). A reason to go BR with burn, given that Bump in the Night is also a thing, though missing out on Fireblast is significant.
Mother of Runes is the most egregiously powerful and frustrating protection card to play against, IMO. The protections on almost everything else are secondary to their use, but her protection granting ability is just nasty good.
Oh she's strong for sure, but unlike, say Soltari Priest, a red deck isn't just dead to her. The game stays interactive because each color has answers to her and she takes a turn to get online and she can't protect both herself and another creature.
On topic: At 540 I think I would cube 5-6 cards in each guild section plus 4-5 lands. I like my guilds evenly distributed, but a lot of cubes simply opt to play the absolute best and thus, for example, play only 2 Boros cards but 5 Simic cards.
That really wasn't my point, but I agree that planeswalkers are interesting and fun. I've got no problem with the Swords though.
Cheers,
rant
Personally I dislike protection and have cut it entirely from my cube.
Entirely cutting protection strikes me as rather unfair to white, considering that you're basically saying no Mother of Runes, No Baneslayer Angel, No Soltari Monk, Priest, no Soldier of the Pantheon, no Mirran Crusader. That seems like a MAJOR MAJOR blow to white and how it plays.
Ah, I should have added a caveat that I cut all permanent protection from specific colors from my cube. Mother of Runes and Soldier of the Pantheon are still in, as they don't hose one color in particular and both of them can usually be removed by every other deck in the draft. I play none of the other creatures you mention, but white is deep enough that it doesn't need them imho. Baneslayer has indeed been replaced by Archangel of Thune as toomaxz suggest, and she won the last draft we did (together with Gideon Jura and Assemble the Legion).
I am also not adverse to temporary tricks like Shelter or God's Willing by the way, though those are not in my cube at the moment. White still has plenty of play in the efficient weenie department, tokens + anthems, blink effects and efficient multi-purpose removal, and thus is a good color in both aggro and control builds. I don't think protection needs to be integral to the way the color white plays out
That really wasn't my point, but I agree that planeswalkers are interesting and fun. I've got no problem with the Swords though.
Cheers,
rant
Haha, sorry, that was a bit of a hijack there. Personally I dislike protection and have cut it entirely from my cube. Then again, my cube is unpowered. If you run a powered cube cutting the Swords is kind of moot, since you are running power because you want epic BS games and Swords provide that those kinds of games I guess I was trying to kind of "reverse psychology" there and aks the OP how on earth his playgroup manages to enjoy power and things like the Swords and Jitte, but not planeswalkers. I think the planeswalkers are not near the top of the list of broken and fun/unfun (depending on your point of view) things you can do in a powered cube. Except for Jace, the Mind Sculptor that is, that thing is just retarded (and definitely belongs in a powered cube)!
In the end though you have to build your cube so that your playgroup enjoys it the most, and if that is a powered cube without planeswalkers, than that's the way it is.
It also bugs me that protection is stronger against some colors than against others. White, black and, to a lesser extent, blue can play mass removal, which works. Red's mass removal however does not work, because it's damage based. Green is screwed anyway, because it's removal is pretty much exclusively creature-based. Blue can also just counter creatures with protection from blue, since protection only works on the battlefield, and black has sacrifice effects.
Just imagine:
Green: "Bwahaha, this card is the bane of blue! Prepare to get crushed beneath its trampling hooves!"
Blue: "Counterspell."
Green: "What. Never mind, I drew another one."
Blue: "Float mana, Upheaval, drop protection from green creature."
Green: "Aw come on! How is that fair? I am never going to beat that card!"
Red: "Hehe, Stormbreath Dragon is pretty savage, amirite?"
White: "Ouch, take 4. Ok, time to Day of Judgment,"
Red: "Oookay, well played I guess..."
White: "Kor Firewalker."
Red: "Groan..."
So, you don't like the fact that the different colors have different strengths and weaknesses?
I love the fact that different colors have different strengths and weaknesses. I dislike that protection as an evergreen mechanic hurts some colors significantly more than others"
Quote from ThanoStar »
How does red's mass removal not work?
It doesn't work against protection from red, because it is damaged based, except for the occasional, and mostly inefficient, Flowstone Slide effect.
Quote from ThanoStar »
I have never seen a red mass damage spell "not work" unless it was countered, and there are plenty of red cards that go against blue. and defense grid is a card. Maybe people should learn how to play around things, this is supposed to be a strategy game, not a I want to resolve everything in my deck unopposed or I'll cry like a baby game.
I love counterspells, that is not the problem. It was just an example of blue having a tool against protection from green that green does not have. That is of course the reason protection from blue is often paired with the "can't be countered" clause, but that feels contrived to me. This might be a personal thing though.
Those are answers to counterspells, which I am fine with. They are not answers to protection from red/green cards. My point still is that counterspells provide blue with an answer to protection from blue effects, whereas red and green have (almost) no cards that can interact with protection from their colors.
Quote from ThanoStar »
In the red example there are plenty of creatures that have pro white, and plenty of red enchantments that do damage when a white spell is cast etc. Also, learn to not over extend into a DOJ. Kor Firewalker gains them 1 life per spell, so, out damage him?
That is the only thing red and green can do against protection from their colors: try to race. Which once again helps to illustrate the fact that protection is more effective against those colors than against white, blue and black. It also helps to illustrate how protection is a non interactive mechanic, since you just have to "ignore" the creature with protection and hope that you can race it. In my humble opinion, that kind of Magic is not the interesting kind of Magic. I much rather play interactive back-and-forth games. Games where control decks have to get more imaginative in their choice of finishers than dropping a large protection creature as their hard-to-remove threat. Games where red aggro isn't a dog to white aggro because there happens to be a protection from red bear that just wrecks every game.
Anyway, I think Magic would be more interesting if protection went the way of the dodo.
It also bugs me that protection is stronger against some colors than against others. White, black and, to a lesser extent, blue can play mass removal, which works. Red's mass removal however does not work, because it's damage based. Green is screwed anyway, because it's removal is pretty much exclusively creature-based. Blue can also just counter creatures with protection from blue, since protection only works on the battlefield, and black has sacrifice effects.
Just imagine:
Green: "Bwahaha, this card is the bane of blue! Prepare to get crushed beneath its trampling hooves!"
Blue: "Counterspell."
Green: "What. Never mind, I drew another one."
Blue: "Float mana, Upheaval, drop protection from green creature."
Green: "Aw come on! How is that fair? I am never going to beat that card!"
Red: "Hehe, Stormbreath Dragon is pretty savage, amirite?"
White: "Ouch, take 4. Ok, time to Day of Judgment,"
Red: "Oookay, well played I guess..."
White: "Kor Firewalker."
Red: "Groan..."
Protection sucks as an evergreen keyboard. Newer players often don't get the "can't be blocked by X" part, and almost never get the "is still destroyed by global X effects, unless that effect is damage based". As a mechanic it also blows because it promotes uninteractive gameplay. If you ever had that sinking feeling staring down a Sword of X and Y while playing an X and Y deck, you know what I mean. As far as I'm concerned it can go die in a fire (though protection from red obviously won't).
I hope MTG developers don't think like you do. Protection isn't really hard to understand. Being complex yet accessible for the masses is what makes a good product. If it becomes too easy to understand, MTG won't be as fun. I don't like how the game seems like it most absolutely evolve to appeal to newer players that can't be damned to learn the rules.
Magic already is an extremely complex game. It's rulebook contains so many pages that it is impossible for new players to learn every rule. Furthermore, it isn't set up in a way that lets newer player access the important information first. It is thus super important that the evergreen mechanics are resonant and intuitive so that this game can keep attracting new players.
Protection from might be resonant, but it sure isn't intuitive. Saying it is is turning a blind eye to all the misplays that happen when new (and even moderately experienced) players play with the protection mechanic. Those misplays don't happen because new players are to lazy to learn the rules, even players that try their hardest to absorb as much information as they can (and that is a lot!) make those mistakes.
In addition to being unintuitive, the mechanic furthermore promotes non interactive gameplay (even worse than hexproof does), which I think is bad. True-Name Nemesis is the ultimate example of this, and while you might think protection from red isn't as bad as protection from a player, against a mono-red deck it is just as worse. Kor Firewalker pretty much said:"Sorry mono-red players, but we decided your deck isn't viable anymore". Cards like that are just bad for the game. Any time protection is so pushed it becomes maindeckable, it basically shuts out a whole archetype. I think protection as it currently works is bad for the game.
I echo this sentiment. I would cut the Swords of X and Y long before I would cut planeswalkers (in fact I did in my cube), since the double protection on top of already strong effect turns games into a steaming pile of non interactive bs when playing against an X and Y deck. I can't fathom a playgroup that would frown upon planeswalkers and what they do to the game, but be okay with the swords.
Protection sucks as an evergreen keyboard. Newer players often don't get the "can't be blocked by X" part, and almost never get the "is still destroyed by global X effects, unless that effect is damage based". As a mechanic it also blows because it promotes uninteractive gameplay. If you ever had that sinking feeling staring down a Sword of X and Y while playing an X and Y deck, you know what I mean. As far as I'm concerned it can go die in a fire (though protection from red obviously won't).
In a nonpowered, "budget" cube like mine some cards, like Loam Lion and KotR, aren't really worth it. I really like Advent, since a 5/5 trample with flash is awesome value at 4 mana, and you can often ambush something with it.
Also don't agree with Simic being the runt of the litter. Mystic Snake, Trygon Predator, Lorescale Coatl, Kiora, the Crashing Wave, Simic Sky Swallower, Edric, Spymaster of Trest and Prophet of Kruphix are all highly playable.
Agreed - they are all playable and good (Prophet and Coatl are debatable, but you could maybe add Zegana and Shardless Agent in their place which are both nice), but not on the level of the very best that other guilds have to offer. Most pairs have at least one card that would really hurt to cut, but I can't say that too much for Simic. Just my opinion, of course.
Yes, those are good as well. I think the reason that cutting cards from Simic doesn't really hurt is because the power level doesn't drop much after a few cards so you can easily replace a card with something equally impressive and fun. Simic has a consistent batch of powerful and cool cards. There are still some cards left that have gone unmentioned between our two posts that I wouldn't mind seeing in a booster, like Temporal Spring, Kiora's Follower, Voidslime and Snakeform.
I also humbly suggest you try Lorescale Coatl. It's an absolute beatstick and sick with draw spells, especially Brainstorm (or Jace, the Mind Sculptor, but him I don't run). It's a must-kill creature for sure. Prophet is also awesome. 5 mana is a lot for something so fragile, but the effect steals games like nobody's business. "Oh, you don't play anything? Guess I'll deploy another threat then. Oh, you do want to play something? Guess I'll counter that then and play my threat next turn..."
Don't forget Gelectrode, that card is fun. Frostburn Weird is also pretty servicable as a flexible creature that can be played in defensive (blue) decks and aggressive (red) decks alike.
Trygon Predator and Electrolyze are both cube mainstays. I think Grim-Grin is cute if you have good sacrificial fodder in your cube (Gravecrawler, Bloodghast and Ophiomancer come to mind). Oversoul of Dusk seems oppressive. I'm not a fan of protection in general because it promotes non-interactive Magic games, and this guy has protection versus 3 colors, in addition to a restrictive mana cost. Mercurial Chemister was a bomb in RtR block limited, I imagine it's cute but less powerful in a typical cube. Brion Stoutarm is decent, but I personally run Firemane Avenger in it's place. I would run City of Traitors or Ancient Tomb as multiple-mana lands before I would run Scorched Ruins, since that card cuts hard into your colored manabase and land destruction kills you on the spot.
Who is going to be the first to post up a review/playtest?
I bought mine at the LGS for 20 bucks. I usually buy from Wal Mart but I figured for the same price I'd support a local small business. (I do not play at the LGS, I have my own playgroup and I host at my house) Now if they were gouging like a few places around here do...
Anyway.
Gotta get my hands on some sleeves and stuff but I'll post my results soon as I can for those of you like me concerned with the playability and fun factor.
I did not play this myself but two of my friends did. Basically, once the Jace deck gets going, it's really hard for the Vraska deck to win.
Yep, can confirm. It's now 12-3 or something like that? Jace buries Vraska in card advantage basically.
Oh she's strong for sure, but unlike, say Soltari Priest, a red deck isn't just dead to her. The game stays interactive because each color has answers to her and she takes a turn to get online and she can't protect both herself and another creature.
On topic: At 540 I think I would cube 5-6 cards in each guild section plus 4-5 lands. I like my guilds evenly distributed, but a lot of cubes simply opt to play the absolute best and thus, for example, play only 2 Boros cards but 5 Simic cards.
Ah, I should have added a caveat that I cut all permanent protection from specific colors from my cube. Mother of Runes and Soldier of the Pantheon are still in, as they don't hose one color in particular and both of them can usually be removed by every other deck in the draft. I play none of the other creatures you mention, but white is deep enough that it doesn't need them imho. Baneslayer has indeed been replaced by Archangel of Thune as toomaxz suggest, and she won the last draft we did (together with Gideon Jura and Assemble the Legion).
I am also not adverse to temporary tricks like Shelter or God's Willing by the way, though those are not in my cube at the moment. White still has plenty of play in the efficient weenie department, tokens + anthems, blink effects and efficient multi-purpose removal, and thus is a good color in both aggro and control builds. I don't think protection needs to be integral to the way the color white plays out
Haha, sorry, that was a bit of a hijack there. Personally I dislike protection and have cut it entirely from my cube. Then again, my cube is unpowered. If you run a powered cube cutting the Swords is kind of moot, since you are running power because you want epic BS games and Swords provide that those kinds of games
In the end though you have to build your cube so that your playgroup enjoys it the most, and if that is a powered cube without planeswalkers, than that's the way it is.
I love the fact that different colors have different strengths and weaknesses. I dislike that protection as an evergreen mechanic hurts some colors significantly more than others"
It doesn't work against protection from red, because it is damaged based, except for the occasional, and mostly inefficient, Flowstone Slide effect.
I love counterspells, that is not the problem. It was just an example of blue having a tool against protection from green that green does not have. That is of course the reason protection from blue is often paired with the "can't be countered" clause, but that feels contrived to me. This might be a personal thing though.
Those are answers to counterspells, which I am fine with. They are not answers to protection from red/green cards. My point still is that counterspells provide blue with an answer to protection from blue effects, whereas red and green have (almost) no cards that can interact with protection from their colors.
That is the only thing red and green can do against protection from their colors: try to race. Which once again helps to illustrate the fact that protection is more effective against those colors than against white, blue and black. It also helps to illustrate how protection is a non interactive mechanic, since you just have to "ignore" the creature with protection and hope that you can race it. In my humble opinion, that kind of Magic is not the interesting kind of Magic. I much rather play interactive back-and-forth games. Games where control decks have to get more imaginative in their choice of finishers than dropping a large protection creature as their hard-to-remove threat. Games where red aggro isn't a dog to white aggro because there happens to be a protection from red bear that just wrecks every game.
Anyway, I think Magic would be more interesting if protection went the way of the dodo.
Just imagine:
Green: "Bwahaha, this card is the bane of blue! Prepare to get crushed beneath its trampling hooves!"
Blue: "Counterspell."
Green: "What. Never mind, I drew another one."
Blue: "Float mana, Upheaval, drop protection from green creature."
Green: "Aw come on! How is that fair? I am never going to beat that card!"
Red: "Hehe, Stormbreath Dragon is pretty savage, amirite?"
White: "Ouch, take 4. Ok, time to Day of Judgment,"
Red: "Oookay, well played I guess..."
White: "Kor Firewalker."
Red: "Groan..."
Magic already is an extremely complex game. It's rulebook contains so many pages that it is impossible for new players to learn every rule. Furthermore, it isn't set up in a way that lets newer player access the important information first. It is thus super important that the evergreen mechanics are resonant and intuitive so that this game can keep attracting new players.
Protection from might be resonant, but it sure isn't intuitive. Saying it is is turning a blind eye to all the misplays that happen when new (and even moderately experienced) players play with the protection mechanic. Those misplays don't happen because new players are to lazy to learn the rules, even players that try their hardest to absorb as much information as they can (and that is a lot!) make those mistakes.
In addition to being unintuitive, the mechanic furthermore promotes non interactive gameplay (even worse than hexproof does), which I think is bad. True-Name Nemesis is the ultimate example of this, and while you might think protection from red isn't as bad as protection from a player, against a mono-red deck it is just as worse. Kor Firewalker pretty much said:"Sorry mono-red players, but we decided your deck isn't viable anymore". Cards like that are just bad for the game. Any time protection is so pushed it becomes maindeckable, it basically shuts out a whole archetype. I think protection as it currently works is bad for the game.
In a nonpowered, "budget" cube like mine some cards, like Loam Lion and KotR, aren't really worth it. I really like Advent, since a 5/5 trample with flash is awesome value at 4 mana, and you can often ambush something with it.
Yes, those are good as well. I think the reason that cutting cards from Simic doesn't really hurt is because the power level doesn't drop much after a few cards so you can easily replace a card with something equally impressive and fun. Simic has a consistent batch of powerful and cool cards. There are still some cards left that have gone unmentioned between our two posts that I wouldn't mind seeing in a booster, like Temporal Spring, Kiora's Follower, Voidslime and Snakeform.
I also humbly suggest you try Lorescale Coatl. It's an absolute beatstick and sick with draw spells, especially Brainstorm (or Jace, the Mind Sculptor, but him I don't run). It's a must-kill creature for sure. Prophet is also awesome. 5 mana is a lot for something so fragile, but the effect steals games like nobody's business. "Oh, you don't play anything? Guess I'll deploy another threat then. Oh, you do want to play something? Guess I'll counter that then and play my threat next turn..."
Also don't agree with Simic being the runt of the litter. Mystic Snake, Trygon Predator, Lorescale Coatl, Kiora, the Crashing Wave, Simic Sky Swallower, Edric, Spymaster of Trest and Prophet of Kruphix are all highly playable.
Yep, can confirm. It's now 12-3 or something like that? Jace buries Vraska in card advantage basically.