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  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Affinity



    Epochrasite is like a terrible enforcer. It comes out turn 5 as a 4/4 and cost you 2. Ew. Cut that for a thopter, enforcer, and mox (if you are going to play them they should be a 4 of). If you plan on using moxes, you should run 12 colored cards (thoughtcast, blast, thougthseize come to mind). Drop your glimmervoids for nexus. If you are getting mana screwed (for some reason), start chucking colored cards you can't play to mox.

    I have no idea who Master of Etherium is, but if I've never heard of it or seen it before in lists, it probably isn't a card that you want to run in affinity (I had to look up Epochrasite too). (oh it's a new card, it still is dubious).

    Also since mox is a color fixer and accelerant, you don't need 19-20 lands. I would say 17-18 is cutting it close (at 17 you'll get one land hands and not draw into another land goldfishing about every 20 hands).

    EDIT:
    Quote from Xwt
    Anyway, once we lose Cabal's Therapy, the Atog versions that often scoops to a resolved smother or any form of instant speed point removal spell might prove to week in the face of midrange decks, and I am personally likely to revert to Tarmogoyf/Sharpnel Blast versions.


    Running those cards over tog doesn't change anything, you still lose to the exact same cards (thought seize, smother).

    Quote from Kharlis01
    The main benefit of Drum over Mox is coloured mana creation. mox demands 2 of the same coloured spell to facilitate casting your non artifact (and maybe some of your artifact with shards stuff) spells, whereas drum allows you to cast those spells for the minimal cost of tapping one of your creatures.

    This in turn allows flexibility and consistancy at the cost of speed.

    Both are valid choices.

    (this isn't aimed at you but was prompted by)
    Yes, the two cards do slightly different things, no one can disagree with that. But people saying "OMG, drum is what made affinity fast again" are full of it. I've had people tell me that chromatic star is accelerant. Mox accelerates you the turn it is played, in return for card disadvantage. Drum speeds you up in return for (occastional) board disadvantage after the turn that it is played.

    I am not saying things like x card is strictly better. I say x card does this, while y card does this. I don't care what the circumstances are.

    Oh, and mox doesn't require that you have two cards of the same color, because that would mean you are land screwed and you wouldn't be playing them anyways (bar drum).

    Affinity as a mechanic, is lucksac. If it were a "good" mechanic you would run 40+ artifacts, a lot of them terrible (c'mon, arcbound worker? Ornithopter?). Getting explosive draws when the stars align and them thopters and platings go for the kill on turn 4 has nothing to do with consistency.
    Posted in: Extended Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Affinity
    Quote from Jhoira

    Im going to really question your knowledge of the deck. Have you ever played with Drum before? It is not only good with a Thopter. It is generally the correct play on turn 1 even if you have Arcbound Worker in hand, because it can set you up for a potentially explosive turn 2. Casting Drum on turn 1 will mean that your turn 2 Arcbound Worker is free and almost any Frogmite would be able to help Drum for mana. Drum sped the deck up by 0.5-1 turns.
    An example hand could be Turn 1 Land Drum. Turn 2 Land, Worker, Thoughtcast, Frogmite and still have 1 mana left for Star, another Worker or another Thoughtcast. You really ought to test Drum before you comment on it sucking.


    So this "explosive hand" is two lands, a star, a drum, two workers, a frog and a thoughtcast (with one card in hand). It is currently turn two. What's your clock? You win on what, turn 6 with a bit of good stuff. That's laughable.

    Quote from Jhoira

    Affinity may want speed, but Affinity also want more threats. Its no use having speed if you have nothing to play out with the Speed you gained. Mox will imprint a card, and there arent many colored cards in Affinity. Even though Mox may be faster in emptying the hand, it will suck as you have 1 less threat to play out. Drum may be 40-60% slower? However, Drum has no card loss and actually speeds up the deck, as well as color fixes for all colors. Again, I implore you to test it out before you comment. I would say your saying of Mox being better than Drum is unfounded and deserves to be challenged.


    Mox speeds up the deck one turn, on the turn it is played and for every turn after. Drum will never do that. Mox is faster period, by one turn (at the cost of one card).

    I did test it out, turn one anything that isn't going to kill is a waste of a turn. Your clock is zero, your opponent has forever to win until you play a threat. They have a free turn.

    Quote from Jhoira

    Again, from here, I think you did not test out Drum at all. As I said, Drum could work with any early creature, a turn 2 Frogmite, Worker or Ravager, or whatever else. Drum fixes mana. Drum is really ALWAYS the best turn 1 Drop Affinity wants as it really sets up a big turn 2. You wont be using a creature that can attack to tap for mana. As Drum is almost always a turn 1 play, and you would be tapping creatures with Summoning Sickness instead of those that can attack. Besides, attacking on 1 with a Arcbound Worker will hardly matter as compared to the extra speed you get from going turn 1 Drum. Go test it out before you assume.


    Drum costs 1. If you then use drum to get out a creature, it has paid for itself. It has not accelerated you. You are not a turn ahead. You traded a card in hand for one on board (not neccissarily a better board position).

    And again, I have tested it.

    Quote from Jhoira

    DotV had instant speed powers. DotV has triggered abilities and triggers on every artifact dying. DotV was a turn 1 play and is proactive and automatic. Rite is situational as it requires you to have a big power creature, as I said in my last post. If you dont have a big power creature, Rite is useless. Sacrificing a creature and 1 card for 3-5 damage is hardly worth it. Shrapnel Blast will at least make the trade worth it as the artifact to be sacrificed is most likely dying anyway. Just because the old Affinity won by DotV, a card that made Affinity 2 times as powerful as it is, doesnt mean the new Affinity has to conform to that way of winning. DotV was useful in all situations. Rite of Consumption is not.


    Then why did affinity run any flings (which was replaced by blast)? I hope every slow deck in the format runs ensnaring bridge just to force you to pay 2BBR just get try and get any damage in.

    Quote from Jhoira

    No. This is not true. If you truely have played out a game vs any aggro deck, you will know they often have perhaps a Kird Ape, a Tarmogoyf and maybe another x/1 creature on the board with 2 mana open for a burn spell or something. Affinity's creatures will most likely be 1 Ravager, 2 Frogs, 1 Thopter or 1 Atog or something. And in this kind of situations, Affinity does not have creature quality. Affinity will definitely not be in a good position to attack with all as it is unable to get through without making unworthy trades. With Fatal Frenzy, it can turn the tables on such a situation.
    Another thing would be true is that Fatal Frenzy could be used as early as turn 3. Say you had a Ravager or Atog on turn 2, your opponent has just played a 2/3 Kird Ape or Goyf or something, being able to attack with your creature, go all in, and Fatal Frenzy it for 25+ trampling power will get you the game in the bag before your opponent can even play out his hand.
    This is also particularly true against UW Tron cycling Decree for blockers to get to the next turn's Wrath or Slaver.
    Fatal Frenzy has it uses in many situations. You should test it too with an open mind to see how it works and how it can really turn the game in your favour and how explosive it is.

    And yet rites goes around the entire problem, interesting how you skipped that. And I guess you forget there is hard removal including burn. your entire example is conditional. I don't care about specific conditions in which the card is good. Lets all run mindslaver because it's good with these conditions and this board position. Not.

    Quote from Jhoira

    I did refute your claims. You chose not to accept my examples


    Ok, give no examples for when frenzy will be better and tell me why it's better. Irrelevant of board positions, why is frenzy strictly better.

    State how combat damage will get through more often than a spell.


    Quote from Jhoira

    And can I ask how many decks now have Fogs in their decks that can be used vs this deck? What are the fogs? I have also explained how to use Fatal Frenzy properly in order to not get 2 for 1ed by removal against other decks. I only serve to refute your claim that Fatal Frenzy is bad. Fatal Frenzy has its uses and is good in my opinion. The idea is that both Fatal Frenzy and Rite can get through creature removal and blockers. However, the catch is that Fatal Frenzy can deal MORE while Rite deals less and Fatal Frenzy has lesser chances of getting 2 for 1ed than Rite against counter decks.


    Back that up that there are more counterspells running around than counterspells, removal, and fogs. That is impossible. You are wrong. Rites will get through more often then frenzy.

    If you honestly need to be dealing 20 damage with frenzy instead of 10 with rites, you have other problems to be dealing with. And last I checked, getting into the red unblocked with huge fat is what affinity does, so rites can deal the same amount of damage as frenzy (without going all in) and gives you the huge advantage in the aggro matchup by turning back their clock.
    Posted in: Extended Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Next Level (and other Levels of) Blue
    Unless I'm mistaken, the deck was possible because it allowed free permission on any 3 cc cards of your choice. Now that you are flipping blind, you are going to have to add a ton of permission, repetitive cc cards, or rebuild the deck without counterbalance (aka affinity without artifacts).
    Posted in: Extended Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Affinity
    Quote from Jhoira
    Paradise Mantle required your creature to have Haste.

    Springleaf Drum can "activate" a creature the moment it enters play. (which means you could go Land, Drum, Thopter, Frogmite Frogmite on turn 1. etc.)
    Springleaf Drum does not need to "target"/equip a creature.

    These additional benefits mean that Springleaf Drum has a higher chance of emptying Affinity hands onto the board in the earlier turns than Paradise Mantle. Something which is noteworthy considering how this deck relies mainly on speed to gain advantage and win the game.


    Wow, I'm glad you can state the obvious differences in the cards. Either way, drum sucks unless you have a thopter to go with it. It is still terrible.
    Quote from Jhoira

    Meddling Mage on Pierre Canali's part was "secret tech" and this gave him an advantage over others, because they do not expect it from an Affinity deck.
    Paradise Mantle is strictly worse as compared to Springleaf Drum, regardless of whichever way you look at it unless Affinity actually benefits from "equipping". Paradise is nowhere near the "secret tech" over Springleaf Drum, which is clearly better and mostly agreed upon. Unless you have some way to prove that Paradise Mantle is equal to or better than Drum.

    I never said that Mantle was good. Go look at my post, I said it is a terrible card and the mox is strictly faster. Since you argue that affinity wants speed, you should run mox instead of drum, so why don't you? Simple, everyone is doing it so I guess it's a good idea (reguardless of what is "better").

    Drum only accelerates the second time you use it. Which in all cases, will be the turn after you play it (assuming you played something new that turn which you can tap down instead of something last turn that you might attack with).

    Quote from Jhoira

    Rite of Consumption is a Sorcery.
    Rite of Consumption requires you to sacrifice a creature first.

    What does this mean?
    Rite of Consumption will assumably only be used on a creature with large enough power, and this means the creature must either be Cranial Plating equipped or with tons of +1/+1 counters on it.
    Rite of Consumption will kill the creature first, the moment it is played. This means that if an opponent counters it, you just got 2 for 1ed by your opponent unless the creature has Modular and you have a spare creature on board to transfer to.
    Assuming you do not want to sacrifice a big creature yet, you will only sacrifice a creature with Cranial Plating on it, this means that you have to equip Plating, then play Rite, which means most of the time, no Plating = no good Rite unless you want to put all your eggs into 1 basket with a big creature.
    Rite of Consumption cannot be as versatile as Shrapnel Blast. Why? One of the advantages of Shrapnel Blast is that it can sacrifice a potentially dying artifact for 5 damage. Rite of Consumption is sorcery and cannot have such a usage, ever.

    And Frenzy can go 2 for 1 if they kill your creature. So? The reason why affinity was a ****ing good deck was because you didn't even need to go into the red zone to win. Affinity would get big, and you die from DotV, or you eat a fling.

    Quote from Jhoira

    Rite of Consumption to Fatal Frenzy.

    When you are attacking with Affinity. You do not have a flyer most of the time, and this means that your creatures can be blocked and can die. Fatal Frenzy makes a block highly unfavourable and can single-handedly deal 10+ damage over any blockers.
    If Fatal was successfully cast, it will almost always deal twice the damage as compared to Rite. This could mean the difference between your opponent dying immediately, or you gaining some life and your opponent still having some life.

    Vs a counter deck, Fatal Frenzy can be countered, and there will be no loss in card advantage. Rite of Consumption will result in a loss of a potential threat. Also, the usage of Fatal Frenzy was to captilise on a very fast win and to suddenly win. This meant that the Affinity player will be often attacking with everything, forcing an opponent to have to tap out every turn to cast creatures for blocking or to cast removal spells aimed at the creatures, or just die to beats even without Fatal.
    HOWEVER, the moment they are tapped out and blocks have been made, Affinity can get to work its magic with Atog, Ravager, Plating Attach, Modular and shift all the damage to an unblocked creature or a creature hindered by a Kird Ape block, for example. Fatal Frenzy would then be cast and give the creature trample and confirmation that the opponent will die to the Trampling Gigantic Creature.

    And here is a position that affinity would win anyways and any card would be win more.

    Quote from Jhoira

    If Affinity was beating down comfortably, there is no need at all to risk a Fatal Frenzy just to kill immediately on a creature and end up having that creature destroyed by removal.

    Any card is win more when you are going to win, who'd have thought?

    Overall, you didn't refute anything I said. Frenzy hits more walls than rites, but changes life totals for the same amount. Frenzy does more damage, but affinity never has had problems getting in damage.

    In all of your scenarios, only one of the three conditions was met to show that frenzy is better than rites, yet frenzy is much more likely to fail. I see you never mention rite getting through creature removal, or a fog, yet seemingly decks only run counterspells to 2for1 rite vs. frenzy. A player getting down lots of blockers is apparently good for frenzy and not for rites, even though they both go through blockers.

    You want to play frenzy, go for it, that is obviously your choice. Your justification is for it is wrong.
    Posted in: Extended Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Affinity
    Quote from Jhoira
    Springleaf Drum made Affinity faster than Mantle did.
    Mantle was subpar and provided hardly anything.
    There is a reason why last season's Affinity all ran Springleaf Drum and not Mantle. Dont try to talk crap here.

    Frenzy is INSTANT and Frenzy allows much much more damage, together with trample than Rites does. If you are going to run rites, you might as well run Shrapnel Blast, which is much better.

    I want you to look at what mantle does, and look at what springleaf drum does. Springleaf drum is marginally better (assuming that tapping down your own creatures is a good idea) than a crappy card.

    "All affinity" ran cards in PT Columbus and it was Meddling mage that won the day. Quoting "everyone" doing it is terrible logic. Mox speeds up the deck even more than drum and it isn't mainstream, and it was played by the only affinity player to T8 during the first season.

    Frenzy also hits three walls of ways to stop it, counter, removal, and fog, while rites only hits one wall. Rites kills the clock of any aggro deck you are playing against. Rites give you the bs wins that DotV used to give and ended up putting it on the BL. To "counter" rites you need to act proactively, and thus have a large chance of being wrong. To counter frenzy you only need to be reactive and thus can never be wrong.

    The fact that frenzy does more damage is irrelevant in that the changes in life total are exactly the same (except in control, where rite is significantly more likely to get through than a frenzy) between the same cards because frenzy is more likely to fail than succeed.
    Posted in: Extended Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Affinity
    Quote from some_bloke
    That really depends on your playing style and the metagame. I prefer the atog version with frenzies (or cleave, which I will test). Goyf is better for a slower gameplan. I think the full on speed deck is the one to go, as springleaf drum has sped the deck so much that it is possible to throw all causion to the wind and win on turn 3.

    Depending om metagame, I might have the goyfs in the side if there's too many hate decks around.

    Springleaf drum made affinity as fast as mantle made affinity.

    Frenzy is weak against aggro and control, Rites is weak against control, choose.
    Posted in: Extended Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Affinity
    Quote from ChrisNutton
    Maybe play 1 as it can be a game over spell, but also a poor top deck.


    Bad advice.

    Quote from Drepanididae
    Shouldn't Affinity just concentrate on winning asap?


    Good advice.

    Play cards that speed you up, or are strictly better versions and don't hurt you. The only time you should slow down to play a terrible card is to counter something that neuters you (aka kataki, moments peace).

    In any aggro matchup (not including mirror) affinity will remain aggro while the opponent switches to control (boros, goblins, RDW, etc.). If you want to play terrible cards put in 4 Erayo and call it a day. If you can arguable find that a card(s) speed you up, test it.
    Posted in: Extended Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Goblins
    Quote from skeeter_eater
    no, i understood the first time. (s)he is saying i said aggro is gonna be slower, which i didn't even imply in any of my posts, u can look in the posts above and do some of this "reading" if you'd like.


    Quote from skeeter_eater
    i would think the format is gonna slow down quite a bit.

    I think we can read quite well. You did not specifically say that aggro is going to slow down, but unless something is out of whack, aggro determines how fast the format is.
    Posted in: Decks for Critique
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Goblins
    Quote from skeeter_eater
    What do you guys think about the return of Dirty Kitty? there's a lot of ridiculousness rotating out and i would think the format is gonna slow down quite a bit. plus the fact that there were some pretty good additions to the deck since lorwyn has come out; vexing shusher and manamorphose are the first ones off the top of my head

    Unless they outright ban affinity again, things won't be as slow as you think.
    Posted in: Decks for Critique
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] 5c Get There
    Quote from Kijin
    The one mana, regardless of hybrid cost, doesn't really merit the +2/+0.

    +1/+0.

    The real thing is that toughness is worthless on anything with double/first strike. If you're attacking, it will kill a creature, it will do some damage, or it will force through something else, it will never attack and just die (unless you want it to?). It could be a 3/1 or a 2/1 and do its job more efficiently for the same price.
    Posted in: Extended Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Affinity
    If someone can find Bob Maher's really old article on Starcitygames, he gives examples of how to play pre-rot affinity vs RDW (jackle pup old). It shows the aggro vs aggro dynamic and how it is played when you understand board position.
    Posted in: Extended Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Affinity
    Quote from Boro
    I dislike Frenzy and Rite of Consumption, mostly because you need a creature to use both, and Frenzy isn't quite good vs Doran, which is a popular deck, and which smashed me twice in Vienna (I was playing Frenzy).

    Blast is a better topdeck, and if you feel that you REALLY need to beat Dredge, play Blast and Atog. If not, swap Atog for Somber.

    It all boils down to the meta but I dislike Frenzy.

    Affinity is a creature based aggro deck, the fact that Frenzy and RoC use creatures is moot. And you only gave evidence on why Frenzy might be bad in one matchup.

    RoC changes life totals by a lot, and I'd say it's good for the same reason lightning helix is good, it changes the math neccesary to beat an affinity deck. If you've seen a burn deck mirror, helix changes the tempo that makes whoever plays it (or plays more of them) win. RoC is the same. And besides, RoC goes around fog while frenzy doesn't.
    Posted in: Extended Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Affinity
    Quote from mEb
    What do you guys think; Mutavault or Blinkmoth nexus? The nexus has evasion, but I don't know how important that is in the deck (I started playing competitively after the ravager bannings). It's also an artifact and mutavault isn't, wich seems pretty important when your modular creatures die.

    The Nexus wins. Period. If muta was optional you would see it being run somewhere.
    Posted in: Extended Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Affinity
    Quote from Lordpenguin
    Do you suggest taking out Blast slots for it? I was thinking about running a 3-3 split of Blasts-Rites, and cutting maybe two Chromatic Star or something. I might only be able to fit a 3-2 split, in which case I'll need to playtest to work out which way round.

    That I'm still debating. Frenzy Tog Ravager Plating Rite is extremely powerful and gives you huge reach, but is not very mana efficient (doing multiple will take 4+). Will blasts make it easier to get the kill, depends on if frenzy + rite will leave them at 5(~).

    With the budget list, removing the playtest with it or without it, and you'll see the difference, then make a decision.
    Posted in: Extended Archives
  • posted a message on [Official Thread] Affinity
    Quote from morgan_coke
    I think Rite of Consumption is amazing in a deck that can also feature Cranial Plating. It's sorcery speed, so obviously not Fling level, but still, with the high probability of lots and lots of Plating equipped Ornithopters getting held up indefinitely by Bitterblossom tokens, Rite can really push through some damage and heavily swing a burn race.

    Rite is definately good enough to force a MD slot, even at sorcery speed.

    Especially true in frenzy decks, and puts this deck back near it's prebanned DotV/fling days. If you aren't building around this, you'll be losing to it.
    Posted in: Extended Archives
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