As things stand, unless Silicon suddenly is able to give an actual explanation for his actions, I'd be happy to lynch him today. The case made is strong, and like I said before he just kinda shrugged off the points made against him. I think it would do us some good to have everybody give their opinion on Silicon as scum or not and why. Heck, we might even finally have a lynch to end this second god-awful (pun intended) day.
I do believe I already gave the actual explanations. *looks back* Yes, yes I did, in post 1946. I would guess that this is the post you say that I "shrugged off" the accusations? Those are however the best explanations I can possibly give.
I am currently trying to reread some things. Hopefully I'll have another post tonight (no promises however).
1. Lurker. We know this. To some extant it's a Silicon thing to lurk, but this is pretty bad. Especially the large gaps in recent days. The last three posts coming over a period of more than two weeks. There are large gaps in posting during Day 1 as well. Lurking w/o excuse = scummy. Multiple gaps in posting of 4, 5, and more days = no excuse.
All I can do about this is apologize for this. Obvious I have lurked quite a bit this game and I can't change what has passed. Most of the lurking in this game has actually been a result of work running me ragged coupled with the thread growing like crazy while I'm not there, causing me to have to spend what little time I have trying to catch up).
Quote from Axelrod »
2. Non-committal. Day 1 he says he feels MD is newb town (which he's going to have a better read on if he's mafia, right?) but can't explain why he feels that way. Of course this feeling doesn't stop him from waggoning MD to death at the end of the day, while criticizing his "horrible" posting, which he has not himself mentioned once.
As I mentioned in response to your pbpa, I had seen no reason to tell everyone else that MD was making horrible plays when everyone else had already said so.
Quote from Axelrod »
He also walked the middle road re: Absolutionis. Voted him for the reason "he can get behind this." Get behind what, pray tell? Then hides behind Puzzle's questions. Then "unvotes" like a good cautious townie, except he makes sure to tell everyone he doesn't think Abso. is any less likely to be scum. Is then wishy-washy when portions of Abso's claim are supported.
I could get behind a wagon on Abso because at the point the game was beginning to stagnate, and I felt a wagon on someone new would help shake up the day.
Quote from Axelrod »
The Passdog incident appears to be more of the same. He dropped his first little dig at Passdog without explanation. When pressed, he does say he thinks Passdog is "most likely" scum, but can give NO basis for this feeling beyond his "gut."
When asked to clarify when his "gut" started speaking to him about Passdog, he points to post #743, where Passdog did not vote AH, did not FOS AH, but said AH was giving him "weird" vibes (and took the time to say specifically what was giving him weird vibes, which Silicon constantly fails to do). Silicon, it seems, wants to criticize that "attack" (if you can call it an attack), but even in his criticism, he says "the post he [Passdog] quotes does have one instance of a questionable usage of 'we'" In other words, Passdog is making at least a partially legitimate point. Yet this is the post which apparently makes Silicon think Passdog is "most likely" to be scum? That's incredibly weak, but since he took that dig, he had to come up with something, didn't he?
Now he's saying that it was Passdog's more detailed attack on AH in post #772 which made him suspicious of Passdog. He has to admit, however, that he never said anything of the sort at the time. What he said (in post #992,) was that he didn't know why he thought Passdog was scum. It was just a "gut" feeling.
At the time (post 992) I didn't know why I had Passdog as scum. When asked after that dig, I went and looked up what made me first start feeling like he was scum. When DYH asked me where my suspicions first started, I gave the spot where he first struck my scumdar. I'm unsure of why I did not mention the next post of Passdogs.
Quote from Axelrod »
What's his opinion on Az vs. me? The rumble in the jungle? he thrilla in Manilla? Right down the middle, baby. He can see valid points on both sides, but doesn't agree completely with either. And he doesn't even specify what points he agrees with or disagrees with. He just says it in a vague kind of way, then moves on to talk about something else. How helpful.
I don't know why I did not mention which points I agreed with, if you'd like I'll go back and post which points I agree with. I would right now, however I don't remember off the top of my head and I am pressed for time, so I can't go back and look currently.
Quote from Axelrod »
3. Aloof. This is where the whole "interesting" point comes in. What is he saying with that? Or trying to say? Well, it sounds like he's taking it all in. He's analyzing the situation. He's thinking about the possibilities. Which would be great if he was actually doing any of those things. His posted thoughts, however, display no such insight nor analysis. He neither makes nor refutes any of the arguments of the moment. He observes. Aloof. And occasionally remarks on how "interesting" it all is to make us think he's paying attention.
Again about all I can do here is apologize for saying "interesting" and not expounding on them. I will do my best to break this habit.
Quote from Axelrod »
4. Tons of agreement with other people. Lots of posts saying I want X to answer Y's question. I agree with X. This is kind of Buddy-buddy, in addition to being non-committal and is a great way to not post any actual content.
I apologize again.
Quote from Axelrod »
5. Meta-Game argument: This one comes from my personal perspective. If I assume Az is townie, then I wonder what the mafia must think of his (sorely misguided) attack on me. I'm thinking that, overall, they must be happy with it, two prominant posters going back and forth and no mafia being in the middle of it. If Az were successful in getting me lynched, great for the mafia. Another potentially dangerous townie down, plus, Azrael's credibility is shot.
For that very reason though, they have to be cautious. They don't want to whole-heartedly support Az in this (misguided) attack on me, lest their own credibility end up shot at the same time. They also don't want to defend me too strenuously - they want me lynched. Plus, how could they justify defending me too much? How could they be so sure I'm townie? So I imagine most mafia walking a middle line. Perhaps expressing agreement with a point here or there, perhaps not commenting much at all in an effort to stay out of it. Less likely to throw their full support behind one side or the other.
Why look, it's Silicon. Smack dead in the middle. He has made a grand total of 1 post commenting on the entire Az/Axel debate, to say he sees points on both sides. Other than that, he's lurking like Jack the Ripper to see how it all plays out.
Hmm... I can definately see how it can be viewed like that. I was not waiting to see how it played out however, I mostly just skimmed over the later posts really, as it was far too much of a distraction.
Quote from Axelrod »
EWP: I see Silicon has just posted his current feelings. How helpful. Still has not managed to specify what "play" in particular any player he listed has made which makes then suspicious.
I really gotta stop assuming people can read my mind I guess
As far as Jobie goes, his 'hammer' near the end of day one never sat well with me.
AH has made several posts recently that have given me the wrong feeling.
Quote from Axelrod »
I'm not sure what to say about him coming down on my side of the Az/Axel debate. I wonder, has my attack on him increased my credibility?
*sigh* No, I was already feeling that before your attack on me. Obviously I can't expect you to fully believe that, as I have never before mentioned it before in thread.
LOL. Axel is a little off with the word being used in the Princess Bride quote he's borowed, but the effect is the same.
Fezzini: Inconceivable! Inigo: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
That's where he's coming from, Silicon.
Ah thanks for clearing that up, it's been quite a while since I've seen that movie.
Hmm...
Well my suspicions currently are (in no particular order)
Jobie - his play at the end of day 1 was questionable, his play today was a bit better, however still questionable.
Az & Axel - their argument today has been large and distracting, overall I feel Az has looked more scummy for the argument.
AH has also given me some weird vibes lately... I should really get around to reread Passdog's case on him...
I should hopefully give more input tomorrow morning.
actually a creature gives all creatures wtih flanking flanking again is the missing one. Thus the playtest cards seem to have come through fairly well.
Didn't that creature have flanking itself though? That would mean there's at most 9 flankers, barring some missing reminder text or something.
Also something I notice that I don't believe has mentioned is the fact that there are no hybrid mana symbols.
Just one quick side note:
@silicon: Would you mind saying how I’m trying to be too much like town? This is more of an academic curiosity than anything else.
I thought I had explained this more clearly than I obviously have. You seem to be doing everything possible to look like town - vote record, keeping stuff straight, filing all the papers, polishing Axel's shoes, etc. This behaviour, while not bad, makes me suspicious, and having never seen you play before, it makes me a bit more suspicious that you could be a new scum trying too hard to be town. Nothing concrete of course, just a small ping on the scumdar.
Oh and looking back I did indeed miss one vote, and I apologize for that (curse your font Xyre :p), however I do still stand by my vote on ikerr.
566
Jumps on the Absolutionis wagon. This post is incredibly hypocritical--he has given NO opinion of his pwn about anyone the entire game--and the fact he recognizes it doesn't really make it less so.
I had given my own opinions on several players. Unfortunately for me, my opinions had already been voiced by others in the game. I can't explain a reason for it other than I don't get too many chances to respond to things first. A lot of times I'll go off to work (or to bed), come back and some event has occured and been responded to by most everyone else.
Quote from Axelrod »
709
This is interesting. Unvotes Abso. for the reason that he's "a might" too close to bein lynched. Says nothing to indicate he is any less suspicious of Abso. Then goes into some detail on why he doesn't like Tregit's "Pantheon Plan." Which I don't think people are particularly talking about at that point.
Says the Abso. wagon grew fast, but defends the speed by saying he thinks if could be full of townies who just wanted something to happen. Doesn't seem to think Abso is any less likely to be scum because of the speed.
I was not any less suspicious of Abso at that point, but before I unvoted he was two or three votes from being lynched (mosschop had counted 12 people voting him, but looking back I can only find 11). At that point I felt there was more to gain by talking a bit more, and leaving him at eleven or twelve votes was not comfortable to me.
Quote from Axelrod »
764
Says he's not thrilled with Abso's analysis. Says the fact that part of his claim have been "confirmed" helps "a bit." (this would be Aurorasparrow saying he's also a God from the GlassWright Series). Doesn't unvote.
Asks Cyan if he has any reason for believing there will be vanilla mafia. Minor fishing?
I didn't unvote here because I had no vote on anyone at the time. Just making sure your notes are correct here.
Quote from Axelrod »
981
Wishy-washy on AH. Doesn't see anything to make him think he's scum. Doesn't see anything to make him think he's town either. Take a dig at Passdog (who he has not so much as mentioned before). Goes back to voting Abso.
992
Passdog calls him on his dig. He states that he does think Passdog is "most likely" scum. For no reasons. Just a "gut" feeling.
Agrees with me that 1000 post days are too long.
Scummy.
995
More arguing with Passdog who is trying to press him to give an opinion on something.
1048
Now he's pressed a bit by DYH. DYH wants to know when he became suspicious of Passdog (whom he had never mentioned before). Silicon says it started around Post #743. Does not give any further explanation.
DYH asks why Passdog had not hit his scummy list before, and Silicon counters by saying DYH doesn't know when Passdog hit his scummy list because he never posted his scummy list. k.
DYH points out Cyan's confirmation of Abso as vanilla as a reason why many people may have gotten off the wagon. Silicon says he still surprised people got off as quickly as they did.
Alright, why are people still acting surprised that I "never mentioned" Passdog as looking scummy before? The post I mentioned that I thought he was scummy in was the first post I made after he started giving me large scum vibes. Yes I had posted after what I told dyh first gave me some scummy vibes, but the whole case against AH which came in post 772 is what started giving me really strong vibes (looking back I never mentioned this, though I could have sworn I had). I never like it when people replace in a game and immediately attack someone, just seems extremely scummy to me.
Quote from Axelrod »
1215
Jumps on the MD wagon. Says with all his "horrible" posts throughout the "entire day" he just can't believe him.
He hasn't said anything about MD for the entire day since the time he said he thought MD was newb town.
So you attack me for not forming any opinions of my own, and for not stating the one of same opinions as everyone else? Seriously, everyone else noticed that his posts were horrible, and had said so. I saw no reason to restate the obvious.
Quote from Axelrod »
1289
Expresses dismay at all the Night kills. Asks if anyone knows why there were so many?
As if anyone would be answering that question.
I asked if anyone had any ideas as to why there were so many, not if they knew why. I was puzzled at the fourth kill really - figuring mafia, sk, and vig killings. Which multiple people expressed ideas as to why there was a fourth kill.
Quote from Axelrod »
1911
His head wants to explode. Now we have both Cultists. INTERESTING (you keep saying that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.)
Doesn't "think" he agrees with people wanting to lynch kops, but that might change with a re-read.
I don't understand why you think I don't know what interesting means. It's true, I tend to use it a lot (as evidenced by your pbpa), but I say that when stuff perks my interest. I don't always specifically state what was interesting obviously, but that doesn't mean there was nothing interesting.
Ikerr already has 8(or possibly 9) votes without yours. I don't think you can play the 'vote for pressure' card and have it be applicable when the person is already under plenty of pressure and when your vote isn't going to change that amount of pressure. Just seems like you're trying to get onto his bandwagon with an appropriate reason, and instead are using the #1 bandwagonning reason this game.(Aside: Seriously, I've never seen the excuse 'vote for pressure' used so much, so early in a game..just because it's generally an accepted, if not great, reason for voting doesn't mean that it's not suspicious when people keep using it as an excuse). I won't even pretend to understand how someone can seem 'too townish'. Also, silicon, you say that you're keeping an eye on Fayul..why?
Ikerr has 8 votes with mine, I wouldn't say that halfway to a lynch is 'plenty' of pressure. As to why I'm keeping an eye on Fayul, do you really have to ask? And as to the 'too townish' thing perhaps I worded that poorly. He's doing so much to seem like town, that it raises my suspicion.
Sorry for not posting later on the other day, but I don't have much time, and the little I do have is being spent catching up on all the new posts in both games that I'm in.
On an unrelated note, Silicon's last post doesn't make me feel good inside. He promised a 'long post after re-reading', but the post that he provided was just a bandwagon unvote, and some logic that is, IMO, utterly nonsensical about why it would be okay to refuse to claim in a specialty game(especially factoring in that Sutherlands has already claimed Vanilla), even though it's generally frowned upon. To me, it seems like he wanted to get off of a bandwagon that clearly isn't going anywhere, but, didn't want it to look like he was bandwagonning in doing so, so he made up a reasoning for it and hoped noone would notice. He doesn't comment on any of the other things that are currently being discussed(Ikerr, Fayul, Night 1 Vigging, etc).
Please don't misquote me. I never promised a long post, I promised a post with content, and I delivered a small post with content. A 'bandwagon unvote'? I'm sorry I thought I actually gave a reason, oh wait, I did, you just skipped over it and went onto a slightly related topic, and took that as my reasoning. Just in case you're wondering, I'll post an overview of my vote on sutherlands:
1) random voted him
2) didn't like the way he was posting, so I kept my vote on him
3) after finally catching up on the thread, I unvoted him because his posting had improved, and I was no longer sensing scum from him.
As for my views on other subjects:
Vigging (in general, not just night 1): I've always believed that vigilantes should only fire if they are pretty darn sure that they will be hitting scum, and that they shouldn't fire randomly. Here is no exception.
Fayul - eh, keeping an eye on her. Can't really say anything else.
Ikerr - definately interesting, and I think it would be good to pressure him, and to that end I will vote Ikerr
other players who have aroused my suspicions: Most notibly are Cyan and Treigit, from their fairly recent posts. Sutherlands has not completely gone off my scumdar either. Another player that has been pinging my scumdar very slightly is atleseal, but the only reason he is is that I've never seen him play before and he seems to be almost too townish right now.
All right, read up. First thing I think I'll do is unvote
Why? Becuase I'm not getting nearly as strong of a scummy feeling anymore. His refusal to claim seems suspect at first, but I unless I'm mistaken (which I'm pretty sure I'm not), we should keep in mind that this is a specialty game, so there's a good chance that not all plays that are normally considered good/bad are considered the same in this game.
Now I'm going to go to sleep, I should give some more content later today.
Gah. Sorry for being gone so long, stuff came up and I couldn't exactly get on for a lot of time. I'm trying to catch up now, I should have a post with actual content within an hour or two.
And also, what an assumption, that kops' role is a non-standard doc and that there would definitely be a standard doc role in this game.
How is it that big of an assumption to make? The way kops worded his claim made it seem like he is not a standard doc (as axel pointed out in his post). I think Axel's question is a fair one to kops, and I would like to hear the answer as well.
I do believe I already gave the actual explanations. *looks back* Yes, yes I did, in post 1946. I would guess that this is the post you say that I "shrugged off" the accusations? Those are however the best explanations I can possibly give.
I am currently trying to reread some things. Hopefully I'll have another post tonight (no promises however).
All I can do about this is apologize for this. Obvious I have lurked quite a bit this game and I can't change what has passed. Most of the lurking in this game has actually been a result of work running me ragged coupled with the thread growing like crazy while I'm not there, causing me to have to spend what little time I have trying to catch up).
As I mentioned in response to your pbpa, I had seen no reason to tell everyone else that MD was making horrible plays when everyone else had already said so.
I could get behind a wagon on Abso because at the point the game was beginning to stagnate, and I felt a wagon on someone new would help shake up the day.
At the time (post 992) I didn't know why I had Passdog as scum. When asked after that dig, I went and looked up what made me first start feeling like he was scum. When DYH asked me where my suspicions first started, I gave the spot where he first struck my scumdar. I'm unsure of why I did not mention the next post of Passdogs.
I don't know why I did not mention which points I agreed with, if you'd like I'll go back and post which points I agree with. I would right now, however I don't remember off the top of my head and I am pressed for time, so I can't go back and look currently.
Again about all I can do here is apologize for saying "interesting" and not expounding on them. I will do my best to break this habit.
I apologize again.
Hmm... I can definately see how it can be viewed like that. I was not waiting to see how it played out however, I mostly just skimmed over the later posts really, as it was far too much of a distraction.
I really gotta stop assuming people can read my mind I guess
As far as Jobie goes, his 'hammer' near the end of day one never sat well with me.
AH has made several posts recently that have given me the wrong feeling.
*sigh* No, I was already feeling that before your attack on me. Obviously I can't expect you to fully believe that, as I have never before mentioned it before in thread.
Ah thanks for clearing that up, it's been quite a while since I've seen that movie.
Hmm...
Well my suspicions currently are (in no particular order)
Jobie - his play at the end of day 1 was questionable, his play today was a bit better, however still questionable.
Az & Axel - their argument today has been large and distracting, overall I feel Az has looked more scummy for the argument.
AH has also given me some weird vibes lately... I should really get around to reread Passdog's case on him...
I should hopefully give more input tomorrow morning.
Didn't that creature have flanking itself though? That would mean there's at most 9 flankers, barring some missing reminder text or something.
Also something I notice that I don't believe has mentioned is the fact that there are no hybrid mana symbols.
I thought I had explained this more clearly than I obviously have. You seem to be doing everything possible to look like town - vote record, keeping stuff straight, filing all the papers, polishing Axel's shoes, etc. This behaviour, while not bad, makes me suspicious, and having never seen you play before, it makes me a bit more suspicious that you could be a new scum trying too hard to be town. Nothing concrete of course, just a small ping on the scumdar.
Oh and looking back I did indeed miss one vote, and I apologize for that (curse your font Xyre :p), however I do still stand by my vote on ikerr.
I had given my own opinions on several players. Unfortunately for me, my opinions had already been voiced by others in the game. I can't explain a reason for it other than I don't get too many chances to respond to things first. A lot of times I'll go off to work (or to bed), come back and some event has occured and been responded to by most everyone else.
I was not any less suspicious of Abso at that point, but before I unvoted he was two or three votes from being lynched (mosschop had counted 12 people voting him, but looking back I can only find 11). At that point I felt there was more to gain by talking a bit more, and leaving him at eleven or twelve votes was not comfortable to me.
I didn't unvote here because I had no vote on anyone at the time. Just making sure your notes are correct here.
Alright, why are people still acting surprised that I "never mentioned" Passdog as looking scummy before? The post I mentioned that I thought he was scummy in was the first post I made after he started giving me large scum vibes. Yes I had posted after what I told dyh first gave me some scummy vibes, but the whole case against AH which came in post 772 is what started giving me really strong vibes (looking back I never mentioned this, though I could have sworn I had). I never like it when people replace in a game and immediately attack someone, just seems extremely scummy to me.
So you attack me for not forming any opinions of my own, and for not stating the one of same opinions as everyone else?
I asked if anyone had any ideas as to why there were so many, not if they knew why. I was puzzled at the fourth kill really - figuring mafia, sk, and vig killings. Which multiple people expressed ideas as to why there was a fourth kill.
I don't understand why you think I don't know what interesting means. It's true, I tend to use it a lot (as evidenced by your pbpa), but I say that when stuff perks my interest. I don't always specifically state what was interesting obviously, but that doesn't mean there was nothing interesting.
Ikerr has 8 votes with mine, I wouldn't say that halfway to a lynch is 'plenty' of pressure. As to why I'm keeping an eye on Fayul, do you really have to ask? And as to the 'too townish' thing perhaps I worded that poorly. He's doing so much to seem like town, that it raises my suspicion.
to those talking about akroma: she's not there, xyl's script checks every word in the oracle database, so that's confirmation that she isn't.
sweet kavu are back (though small in number)
madness! nice!
split second is at most on 10 cards: split has 10 while second has 11
interesting leng is in there, so possibly Library of Leng for one of the extras?
Please don't misquote me. I never promised a long post, I promised a post with content, and I delivered a small post with content. A 'bandwagon unvote'? I'm sorry I thought I actually gave a reason, oh wait, I did, you just skipped over it and went onto a slightly related topic, and took that as my reasoning. Just in case you're wondering, I'll post an overview of my vote on sutherlands:
1) random voted him
2) didn't like the way he was posting, so I kept my vote on him
3) after finally catching up on the thread, I unvoted him because his posting had improved, and I was no longer sensing scum from him.
As for my views on other subjects:
Vigging (in general, not just night 1): I've always believed that vigilantes should only fire if they are pretty darn sure that they will be hitting scum, and that they shouldn't fire randomly. Here is no exception.
Fayul - eh, keeping an eye on her. Can't really say anything else.
Ikerr - definately interesting, and I think it would be good to pressure him, and to that end I will vote Ikerr
other players who have aroused my suspicions: Most notibly are Cyan and Treigit, from their fairly recent posts. Sutherlands has not completely gone off my scumdar either. Another player that has been pinging my scumdar very slightly is atleseal, but the only reason he is is that I've never seen him play before and he seems to be almost too townish right now.
Hm.. so now we have both cultists, interesting.
I don't think I agree with the group suggesting to lynch kops, but that may change with a reread.
unvote
Why? Becuase I'm not getting nearly as strong of a scummy feeling anymore. His refusal to claim seems suspect at first, but I unless I'm mistaken (which I'm pretty sure I'm not), we should keep in mind that this is a specialty game, so there's a good chance that not all plays that are normally considered good/bad are considered the same in this game.
Now I'm going to go to sleep, I should give some more content later today.
How is it that big of an assumption to make? The way kops worded his claim made it seem like he is not a standard doc (as axel pointed out in his post). I think Axel's question is a fair one to kops, and I would like to hear the answer as well.
As for now, I think I'll leave my vote on Sutherlands, as there is not much reason to move it.
Vote Sutherlands.