After reading the past few posts on chrome mox, I can say that if it were legal nothing good would come of it. If the goal is to slow down the format, chrome mox being unbanned is a step in the other direction.
One card for an additional mana source? Yep definitely not broken lol.
EDIT: Just so we're clear yes I understand with the chrome mox it's two cards out of your hand, still leads to degeneracy though.
I'd say that it's effect is less degeneracy and more that it makes decks partially homogenized. Basically, unless there's a very good reason not to, you should be starting every deck with 4 Chrome Mox, if it's legal. If anything though, it makes traditionally "fair" decks (aggro, control, ramp, and midrange) better against "unfair" (combo) decks. Admittedly, I think labeling decks "fair" or "unfair" is a bit loaded, but it's how the developers seem to think of things.
I would order cards safe to come back in this order of the ones Mortal Coil listed...
1. Dread Return - even though I've read all the "proof" here of a turn 2 Iona, I just don't see it
2. Sensei's Divining Top - it is only an issue because of players taking too long (I guess that's enough, but it's sad)
As a former legacy player, have have been on the receiving end of a mad rush of multiple zombies from Dredge too many times. Shaped my thinking not to go to any legacy FNM without at least 4 pieces of grave hate. ------ Would Dread Return enable those mad rush of zombies here?
Sensei Top... would this bring to life the Counterbalance-Top kind of decks to modern? If I'm going to lose, I prefer the swift death from aggro .. than to be staring at someone fix their top deck with "top" for who knows how many number of times already.
Besides those two. I agree with the others things you said.
It is not nearly as bad as in Legacy, since many of the really good supporting tools (be it Cabal Therapy, Breakthrough, LED or Ichorid) are not legal. This means, while the peak performance is similar (winning on turn 2 based on a Hugs into Dread Return into Griselbrand into Dread Return into Zealot for lethal with a theoretically turn 1 win), the consistency for this is way lower. However, turn 2 wins are already rather feels bad man so I basically see no reason at all to unban it.
Greetings,
Kathal
This. My dude, the last thing you want is Dread Return available to Dredge.
Having played against amulet enough to more or less understand it, I can say with confidence that it has the greatest variance of any combo deck I have ever seen. Unlike an infect or storm combo where, if you can stop the key card you can cause them to lose a lot of resources titan doesn't really put itself far behind when it goes off and faces disruption. If you remove the titan, they just have extra mana to play another or any other wincon. But the deck is a bad midrange deck without amulets. I'm around .500 against it on burn and 3-0 against it since picking up grixis shadow.
Honestly, if dredge, tron and phoenix are going to be on top, amulet is definitely a good pick. Though I'd also consider infect if I had the budget.
I'm surprised Amulet didn't get banned over Summer Bloom when they had the chance. But then again, everyone thought the deck was dead without Bloom - joke's on them now
Honestly, I'm happy they didn't ban it into the ground. I don't buy the hype around the current incarnation of the deck. It's just another resilient combo package with a few low percentage early wins. The only thing exceptional about it is that it doesn't rely on the graveyard as much as other combo shells, so people often don't build sideboards with cards that work well against it. I don't really get why people get resentful about losing to a combo deck, but I see it a lot, since I'm on Dice Factory Combo in paper. It's not as resilient to hate as Amulet combo, but it's got a better early win chance.
Burn is a powerful, fast, proactive, INEXPENSIVE deck, so.... It's always good? You scoop it up to Soul Sisters or other wonky decks, but the large number of free wins outweighs that most of the time.
I think the issue is that Modern Dredge doesn't have cards like Breakthrough or even Golgari Grave-Troll for that matter to put gobs of cards into the graveyard. Then they only have Narcomoeba as super free and quick creatures to sacrifice to the casting cost of Dread Return. The deck would be very different. Yes, a turn 2-3 Iona, Shield of Emeria, among others, would be extremely annoying. But I agree with ElectricEye (maybe it is showing our biases) here.
In my experience, Dread Return only needs Narcomoeba and Bloodghast as free creatures. GGT is great, but not required for combo dredge to function. Breakthrough is amazing, but Faithless Looting gets the job done. If they traded Bridge from Below to the banned list to get Dread Return off of it, it would still cause problems with cards like Lingering Souls to fuel very cheap reanimation. It's less of a problem than it is with Bridge, but it will always be an issue. I should clarify though- Manaless or Landless Dredge doesn't work well in Modern or NBLM and isn't really an issue. The only difference between Combo Dredge and Aggro Dredge is how many turns they expect to kill you over. Combo Dredge kills in 1 turn, basically. Aggro Dredge will kill you over 2-4 turns, but is way more resilient to hate.
Dark Depths in my opinion, is not close to being unbanned. When Dark Depths was legal in Extended, everyone ran Repeal and Bitterblossom. Is that the format you want? All UB? I don't mind, but I doubt others would enjoy it.
While Dark Depths is obviously never coming off the banned list, I think you're vastly overselling how effective it is. It's strong, but it's pretty straight forward to counter: Ensnaring Bridge, Needle Hexmage/Stage, Path/exile spells, sac spells, or bounce spells. In my mind, the most problematic element about this card isn't the speed or the effect, it's the fact that basically any deck that runs lands can get rejigged to run the combo and still be efficient. That means you have to respect it, even if the actual effect isn't even that strong in the scheme of things.
I would order cards safe to come back in this order of the ones Mortal Coil listed...
1. Dread Return - even though I've read all the "proof" here of a turn 2 Iona, I just don't see it
2. Sensei's Divining Top - it is only an issue because of players taking too long (I guess that's enough, but it's sad)
3. Chrome Mox - it's free mana and having 2 mana on turn 1 leads even more to a Chalice vs. 1 mana spell format
4. Dark Depths - the card just twists the meta. unless there's other really powerful stuff going on, you need a reason to not just be running this -> 12 discard spells, Repeal, Bitterblossom, and the Combo.
5. Umezawa's Jitte - makes it a format of who draws Jitte first because most decks will run 4.
6. Artifact lands - just really stupid in Affinity, KCI's gone so that's no longer a threat
Never ever, not even in no banned list Modern - Skullclamp - card's just stupid good, an engine that you can't beat in a fair game. May not matter if Modern is 75% unfair.
I dunno. Without Ironworks, the only other cards that are actually problematic with the Artifact lands are Mox Opal, Cranial Plating, and Arcbound Ravager. Without Ravager and Plating, Affinity goes back to being Robots, which is a lot less impressive in my experience. Likewise, Jitte just doesn't really cut it. 9 times out of 10, unless you've got a hard lock on the opponent, you'll lose the turn you drop Jitte to a combo or a boardwipe. In my experience, the only really playable Equipment currently is Batterskull, and even then only as a combo piece in. Also, do not dismiss how strong Skullclamp is in "unfair" strategies, like Dredge, Affinity, and Elves. Clamp is just a fundamentally broken card.
Top is probably a little too much card selection to have with Fetches for Modern, I think. But in terms of power level, I agree that it's a very borderline case. That said, sitting through someone playing a deck with Top, but unfamiliar with how to use it is one of the most boring and aggrivating things about NBLM. At least with Eggs-like decks you can step away for a second to get a hot dog, but with a Top deck, everything you do has 30 seconds of hemming and hawing over the top three cards of their library before you can move on... only for your opponent to do it again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and... I digress. The funniest thing about it is that they'll often lose since they blow so much mana making sure they have the perfect order of their top 3, that they don't have enough to actually answer your play. It's kind of noob trap card in a way.
As for cards that would improve the Meta: Containment Priest is a must have. Having it in the format would help a lot, since it answers so many shenanigans.
I don't think Belcher is the reason Chrome Mox should stay on the banned list. You actually can build a fairly consistent Belcher deck with just Chrome Mox, and Mox Opal as your mana base, shockingly enough, but that's beside the point really. Chrome Mox is an incredibly swingy card, especially on the play, when you're up 2 mana to nothing on turn 1. It gives most aggro, midrange, and control decks a huge leg up if they get to start with it, to the point where the advantage can easily snowball way out of control. I'd argue that the reason Fairies was so dominant was the Chrome Mox into Spellstutter Sprite starts. The only way to compete is to run 4 Chrome Mox yourself. It's a major issue in terms of deckbuilding balance. If you're building a deck with colored spells, it's usually correct to start with 4 Chrome Mox. Heck, half of the reason Tezzerator is so strong in NBLM is that it can afford to run Chrome Mox and Mox Opal, allowing some truly absurd turn 1 plays. Trust me, Chrome Mox should stay banned, and was absolutely a design mistake. There are three cards on the Banned List that absolutely need to stay banned or Modern will no longer be a fun format for most people: Skullclamp, Dread Return, and Chrome Mox. I can conceive of ways that you could make a meta to balance Dark Depths, Umezawa's Jitte, the artifact lands, or Sensei's Divining Top, but those three just break the game in half. You'd need to completely rework the rules to make them fair.
Ignoring the Chrome Mox debate for a minute here, I am going to have to disagree that those 3 cards are the ones that should stay banned forever in modern.
The other two I believe to be Sensei's Divining Top and Eye of Ugin. The first one causes time delays in the format and potentially makes miracles tier 0. The second one - well we saw what happens when Eye and Temple are legal at the same time.
Dread Return makes dredge somewhat better than it is currently, but it doesn't solve any of dredge's problems. It still loses to the same graveyard hate that it currently does.
Back to Chrome Mox.
Chrome Mox is a very powerful card yes, but even though it has broad applications across the format not every colored deck is going to want to play it. It's still card disadvantage in the end. Noble Hierarch is also fairly swingy on the play, and many decks would prefer to play that than Chrome Mox.
Chrome Mox is, IMO, a way for decks that do not have access to Aether Vial, Mox Opal, mana dorks (birds, hierarch, arbor elf), Tron Lands, Eldrazi Lands, or red Rituals to compete against these decks by trading card advantage for mana. Tezzerator? Please show me a list and how you are going to reliably play both Mox Opal and Chrome Mox in the same deck when they each require you to play cards that do not synergize well together (Opal requires artifacts, Chrome requires non-artifacts)
I've never really had much issue with activating both Moxen with this list, and it beats the pants off of everything except the mirror and White Weenie.It's a little less explosive than the versions with Gemstone Caverns, but it's a bit more consistent.
It doesn't fit into any of the current top decks. Phoenix, Dredge, Humans, Spirits, Death's Shadow, Hardened Scales, Tron, UW control, Amulet, Rock, Jund, Burn, Whir Prison.
The only deck it fits into is Ad Nauseam, and even there its awkward and probably worse than Spirit Guide. So can someone explain this to me? Are there any decks I am forgetting?
Chrome Mox makes Modern Belcher a thing, and nobody wants that. Even if it wasn't for Belcher, think about what that card does. Fast mana only speeds decks up, and the decks that would most want something like this are fast combo decks. Does Modern really need to be faster and even more unfair than it currently is? No, it does not. So Chrome Mox would not be a good card to put into Modern.
I don't buy the argument that Belcher suddenly becomes playable with Chrome Mox. It's still a glass-cannon deck, much like Griselbrand combo and Cheerios. These type of strategies tend to mulligan terribly and fold to commonly played sideboard effects
We are at a point in Modern where free mana is considered offensive (and for good reason IMHO). Mox Opal, according to a previous announcement, is on the "watchlist) for a potential ban. Why on earth would they unban the best free mana artifact available in the modern cardpool if they find Mox Opan offensive?
I think his points stands. Modern Belcher is going to need a lot more than just Chrome Mox to become "playable." And when I say playable, I realize that everyone has a different definition. Some people believe that only UR Phoenix, Dredge, Amulet, Whir Prison, and Grixis Shadow are playable right now and I can't fault them for that line of thinking (yes, even with the 1 win that a Jund Titanshift deck did this weekend) We are talking about giving yourself the BEST chance, not just spiking a tournament with a deck that put you at a disadvantage from the start, even if you out tested all other 2,000 players at the GP.
Even though many of us assume it, I don't think Wizards has ever said explicitly that Mox Opal to be close to a banning. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong here.
But I do believe that your point also stands because Wizards seemingly does not want (and I say this loosely because honestly there isn't any proof) fast mana to be prevalent in Modern. I guess there technically is proof with Rite of Flame and Seething Song banned, but other cards are not banned. This is the most likely conclusion one can have.
My point is that you can't blame someone for questioning the line of thinking - Chrome Mox won't get unbanned because of Belcher because Belcher has no relevance in the current meta and there is some percentage of players over 0% that don't believe Belcher to potentially be a problem if Chrome Mox is unbanned. My own opinion is that I don't think it currently should be unbanned, but I think it's close. I think 5 unbannings down the line, it SHOULD come off. I just don't know if that time period is 2 years or 22 years.
I don't think Belcher is the reason Chrome Mox should stay on the banned list. You actually can build a fairly consistent Belcher deck with just Chrome Mox, and Mox Opal as your mana base, shockingly enough, but that's beside the point really. Chrome Mox is an incredibly swingy card, especially on the play, when you're up 2 mana to nothing on turn 1. It gives most aggro, midrange, and control decks a huge leg up if they get to start with it, to the point where the advantage can easily snowball way out of control. I'd argue that the reason Fairies was so dominant was the Chrome Mox into Spellstutter Sprite starts. The only way to compete is to run 4 Chrome Mox yourself. It's a major issue in terms of deckbuilding balance. If you're building a deck with colored spells, it's usually correct to start with 4 Chrome Mox. Heck, half of the reason Tezzerator is so strong in NBLM is that it can afford to run Chrome Mox and Mox Opal, allowing some truly absurd turn 1 plays. Trust me, Chrome Mox should stay banned, and was absolutely a design mistake. There are three cards on the Banned List that absolutely need to stay banned or Modern will no longer be a fun format for most people: Skullclamp, Dread Return, and Chrome Mox. I can conceive of ways that you could make a meta to balance Dark Depths, Umezawa's Jitte, the artifact lands, or Sensei's Divining Top, but those three just break the game in half. You'd need to completely rework the rules to make them fair.
Dreadhorde Arcanist seems like it should work well in Rx Burn and maybe even UR Phoenix. The main issue I see with it is that it's fairly vulnerable to removal, but the upside of a free spell a turn is probably worth it. I don't think it's comparable to Snapcaster, though. I'd compare it to Aether Vial and say that it's probably a little less efficient, but with a bit more card advantage potential.
Invade the City looks like a solid threat for UR Phoenix decks. I don't know if its better than Crackling Drake, but it is cheaper, which is nice.
Vivian's Arkbow is borderline playable. I could see an argument for it in Vizier Druid combo decks as a way to tutor out a kill combo, but I don't think it's better than Recruiter in that shell. I could also see a hypothetical creature-based ramp deck wanting it, but I'm not really aware of deck that can utilize the Arkbow in Modern. It isn't a Survival of the Fittest replacement, it isn't a Birthing Pod replacement, and I don't think it's quite strong enough to spawn a new archetype.
Flux Channeler is interesting. It's got an obvious home in Dice Factory Combo, but I'm not sure how "win more" it is. I do know that I'll have fun trying her out though.
Karn, the Great Creator seems to be pretty... situational at best. He's basically 2 Artifact Wishes stapled to a Stony Silence. I mean, it's neat that he can almost be a 1-card combo with Mycosynth Lattice, but you've still got to actually cast, resolve, and protect the Lattice. He's powerful to be sure, but I'm drawing a blank on any deck that would actually be more effective with him in it's 60. I can definitely see him as a sideboard card in Tron though. I could be mistaken on this guy, and he might be strong enough to spawn a new archetype, but I don't see him taking over Modern. It is cool that he can kill opposing Chalice of the Voids with his +1.
Kaya's Ghostform is a very interesting card to me. On one hand, it's initially card disadvantage, and is basically a do-nothing spell. However, the fact that it's a 1-mana card that could allow you reuse planeswalkers after they ultimate in B is pretty interesting, especially since you can immediately use their abilities again right after. I could see an Esper or Sultai Superfriends deck running a few of these in the 60. It's almost like a mini Sun Titan.
Dovin's Veto is a nice upgrade on Negate for UWx control. Not much to say on it either way, but it will see play.
Angrath's Rampage is almost playable. I like the modal nature of it, but the decks that need this effect need it at instant speed. So close, yet so far.
Ral, Storm Conduit looks like a solid choice for Jeskai Control sideboards. He's a little too expensive for his effects in Phoenix or Storm, but he's great as a way to grind out prison decks and control decks. Turning Lightning Helix into 8 damage and 6 life is pretty strong with his -2. Heck, even Lightning Bolts become 8 damage for 1 mana, if I'm reading the way his -2 interacts with his passive correctly.
Weren't both BBE and DRS legal during the TC meta? Also, Scapeshift, even with DTT, wasn't as good as people think it was. I was on it at the time, and my dude, that deck was a pile. It was way too slow for the format, was in the unenviable position of getting smacked around by Pod and Delver, and wasn't able to fuel DTT properly.
DRS was banned in January 2014 and Khans of Tarkir was released on September 2014 so no, DRS was not legal by the time Treasure Cruise entered the format
This.
Also you were right that Dig Scapeshift had problems with the 2 best decks in the format, but was actually pretty strong outside of those. That's scary because Wizard's had already decided to ban those cards.
Really? I remember it being pretty... well, bad, against everything except Tron and Ramp decks, which it ate for lunch. It just didn't have the interaction to protect itself against midrange or control's interactive elements, other combo decks just outpaced it, it raced poorly against aggro in general because the sweepers really weren't up to par, and it could only barely fuel DTT at all. Honestly, Azcanta and Growth Spiral make the current decks a lot stronger and more flexible. It's actually a pretty solid pick into Izzet Phoenix, since you can run Anger of the Gods and Echoing Truth pretty easily, though Death's Shadow is tough.
IMO Wizard had two paths back in the day, two decision which would been shaping the whole format. One was the Path they took, ban Pod, TC, DTT. That was the more conservative Path, since it was still done with the "what-a-mole" mentality of trying to keep the ever increasing powerlevel of non rotating formats down (especially Modern). The rest is history.
The other one would not to go that route and instead go the unban route of unleashing more cards into the format, things like Stoneforge and BBE would have been great cards back than, but it would have been the more risky path, since no one could say, where this would have lead too.
So, to get back to your initial question, yes, Pod needed to be banned, cause they decided to continue "whack-a-mole". Pod in summer already had peak performances (and that was with a more harmful environment), although in the Kiki Pod version. When TC and DTT entered the format, Rhino.Pod (or rather Angel Pod) became the (in my opinion) second best deck in the format, only DTT Scapeshift (which nobody played for w/e reason, echo champer syndrome I assume) was better. Pod had a decent to great match-up against all the Tier 1 meta decks, either they outvalued any value deck (BGx and UWR) or could keep on par with the card advantage of TC Delver. That combo decks (as in pure combo decks like Storm, Ad Nauseam, Griselbanned or something like Amulet Titan) where either non existent (cause they either didn't "exist" yet (Amulet Titan or Dredge), got no attention at all (Griselbanned, Ad Nauseam) or were considered bad decks (Storm)) helped Pod a lot. Combo and somewhat big mana (depends on which Pod version you played) were the worst match-ups for Pod. Only Infect with the freshly printed Become Immense (in conjunction with Probe) and Affinity were the only top tier decks (which saw play) could have been labeled as a combo deck back than. Sure, there was still Burn with the freshly printed Eidolon (just one set old), but even against that deck Angle.Pod had little to no trouble (Kitchen Finks into Resto into Rhino is gg).
So, tl;dr: Given the path they have chosen back then, it absolutely needed to get banned.
Greetings,
Kathal
Weren't both BBE and DRS legal during the TC meta? Also, Scapeshift, even with DTT, wasn't as good as people think it was. I was on it at the time, and my dude, that deck was a pile. It was way too slow for the format, was in the unenviable position of getting smacked around by Pod and Delver, and wasn't able to fuel DTT properly.
It says
Most modern players are ok with Xerox styled decks being the best decks and anything better and different tends to end up banned. Goes on to suggest that this is a player perception issue rather than a card power and Brian DeMars agrees that he couldn't think of a rebuttal for this.
Now that is what lead me to preordain it also leads us into the murky twin water. so instead of that do we have any eternal format players able to highlight times when Xerox was bested and something got banned?
In Modern, the most infamous example is probably Pod. It took a giant dump on Delver, the UR Xerox deck of the time period, and it got banned. Was the deck actually OP? At the time, it was a surprisingly borderline case despite ballooning to over 20% of the meta due to how soundly it beat Delver, which was pushing 15% itself, IIRC. It was one of the early examples of when people began to cotton onto how the Meta might become imbalanced by indirect means.
Twin was inferior to Scapeshift and Jeskai Ascendancy as Dig decks. The Jeskai Ascendancy deck abusing Dig Through Time came out very late. It played like a Jeskai Control deck in the early game, but instead of killing you with Celestial Colonnade and Snapcaster Mage+Lightning Bolt, it used Jeskai Ascendancy and Fatestitcher with plenty of cantrips, including Gitaxian Probe. It felt like an improved version of Scapeshift, as it could interact more with the opponent in the early game yet it could kill faster. Once Dig Through Time was banned, the deck disappeared, as there is no other card capable of refilling your hand for so few mana that allows you to play a grindy game. Since then, Wizards has done a good job, unbanning Ancestral Vision and Jace and printing Teferi and Search for Azcanta as card advantage engines that can't be abused by combo or aggro decks.
I would say that the Twin lists I saw around in the TC meta weren't well optimized for Dig, rather than that its objectively worse than Jeskai Ascendency combo or Scapeshift. No Probe, No Bauble, no looting, and more of a focus on being able to grind it out with Snapcasters were the hallmarks of that era of Twin. When you run Dig in Twin, you're not playing the control game at all. It's an all in combo deck with a few pieces of interaction to protect your combo or stall for a turn or two. It's pretty good, too. Based on how that performs in NBLM, I'm pretty convinced that even without Chrome Mox it would have performed quite well in Modern.
I am curious since you commented on the Treasure Cruise ban, do you think Dig Through Time would be in line with the current power levels in Modern? When TC and DTT were banned, WotC assumed they had to ban both as TC would be replaced by DTT in every deck (which I disagree). It would be interesting to have an idea on how powerful the card is perceived by someone who has a chance to play NBLM as I think it would be in the same group as Birthing Pod, Green Sun's Zenith or Punishing Fire
No. Of the two cards, I would say that DTT is the more problematic card over all, even if it didn't get its time in the lime light. I would be in favor of allowing Treasure Cruise back in Modern before I'd ever consider DTT. Treasure Cruise's issue is how splashable it is. It's usually correct, or at least a reasonable choice, to run 2-4 TC in most fair decks and splash blue. Cruise could have been printed at a fair cost even with Delve, though. UU7 would have been good, but not overly splashable, I think. Having run both in a variety decks in NBLM, I'd say that if a deck can support UU, it should be running 2-3 DTT- though it just breaks combo decks in half. Honestly, Dig is almost worth its normal CMC. Look at the top 7, take 2 at instant speed is way too good for 2 card combo decks. Twin with DTT is absurdly consistent, and if you know they have DTT, you have to treat them as having the combo in hand. Yes, it's really expensive, but that effect is hard to argue with. With Delve, DTT is probably a better card than Impulse at finding combo pieces for 2 mana, just to put this discussion in perspective. In my experience, the only deck where there's even a discussion over which is better, is UR Storm. If you're playing Swathstorm, then objectively DTT is just better, but if you're playing any list that runs PiF then Cruise is probably a little easier to support since it's less reliant on its Delve Cost in practice.
All of that said, bear in mind that a lot of this is based on what the Meta pressures of NBLM are: Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, and Mental Misstep are the main "counters." Fast Mana through Chrome Mox is way more common.
Everyone jumped on the Delver bandwagon because the deck was dirt cheap for an Eternal Format, but Twin was probably the deck which would have broken Dig once Pod was banned.
There is always some new deck for people to complain about. Some new card. You can modify your deck or play a different one. Once this set drops most current decks are probably going to be made lower tier. Granted I do disagree with a lot of their bannings. They essentially ban combo every chance they get. Anything they want to label "Unfun" is banned. Well that's super lame. I don't even like combo but it is part of the game. That new Serra the Benevolent they are printing is stupid oppressive having a permanent emblem worship. They have gotten worse at designing magic sets over the years with the colors not being balanced at all. Blue now does everything with other colors lagging behind in design space. The banning of Gitaxian Probe is uncalled for. I'm looking at the ban list now. I see a lot of killed decks that I used to play against.
While I agree with the basic sentiment, it is always sad to see decks get pushed out of a format by a ban, I think playing some NBLM might give you some perspective on why certain certain cards need to be on the ban list. Gitaxian Probe is honestly worthy of a ban. It's less about it fitting into every deck (because it really, really doesn't) and more about how it makes "all in" decks way too safe. While there are some questionables on the list right now, by and large it's a pretty decent pick of the cards that break, warp, or make the format toxic to play in for most players. Sure, Stoneforge Mystic and Preordain really have no business on the banned list, and Green Sun's Zenith, Splinter Twin, Hypergensis, Birthing Pod, and Punishing Fire are all pretty in line with the current levels of power in Modern. However, even though Ascendancy Combo died because of Treasure Cruise's banning, it's definitely for the best.
Tunneling in on the decks that have been banned away without thinking about how those decks affected the format as a whole is a bit disingenuous.
I could see Death's Shadow Jund being too good with Sylvan Library. I do not want that card because of that deck to be honest(although I LOVE the card)
I dunno man. Library is probably a bit too slow for any Death's Shadow build I'm aware of. The only somewhat competitive deck I can think of right now that Sylvan Library would go in is BG Rock. It would also put Bant Wilderness on the map, though. That said, Library is highly unlikely to get a reprint in its' current templating. I could see them trying a "fixed" version, but I doubt it. The main thing I'd be looking for are new enemy colored commands, and maybe a monocolored charm cycle. Miscalculation, Complicate, and the Onslaught Decrees could be neat, too.
Many of us have been searching for that for years. I've personally fallen to Grixis Death's Shadow, which ticks all those boxes.
Agreed on all of those points except the first - consistency. This is GDS' biggest issue, and if we figure out a way to solve it, it will absolutely dominate the format again.
I mean, it's about as consistent as a deck running 8 relevant creatures is gonna be... lol.
My kingdom for a free card draw spell though. Probe without the Peek effect would be a dream come true.
I think you're seriously underestimating the deck. I'd say that out of the currently 30-ish most played decks in modern it only has 3 bad matchups. Jeskai and UW primarily due to cryptic circumventing the welding jars/needles, and burn which is actually closer than expected.
It doesn't surprise me that many former kci players are turning to the deck as the next best mox opal deck, it's hard to master but has a very high ceiling.
from what ive seen of the deck its worst matchup is itself. not as bad as something like boggles or grishoalbrand, but its draws are polarized enough that the average suffers for it.
Not really. Bogles and Grishoalbrand are actually pretty bad against Whir Prison, IMO; they're just too flimsy and linear. The worst match up is by far BGx midrange. Abrupt Decay beats Chalice and Bridge (with no Jar, obviously), targeted discard is extremely effective against the deck before it gets an Academy Ruins online, and Goyf/Tasigur/Flayer/Ooze are fantastic threats against Whir Prison if they can't protect their Bridges, which they rarely can if they've been slowed enough. Grixis Death's Shadow is a close second, since they have the same discard as GBx but get countermagic to shut off your Whirs and kill you much faster. Tron is a pain in the neck too since they can topdeck Karn, Ostone, or Ugin to wipe your board. UW control is also great against Whir prison thanks to cards like Negate, Detention Sphere, and Stony Silence out of the sideboard.
I would say that Whir prison is well positioned against many of the decks that are currently popular (Izzet Phoenix and Dredge in particular) and it uses many of the same cards as the KCI decks.
ah yeah, nothing to disagree with. im an idiot and for some reason i thought you guys were talking about hardened scales affinity. my reply was aimed at hardened scales seeming inconsistent much like bogles or grishoalbrand.
as for URx whir decks im not worried about them getting out of hand, decks like BGx, UW control, and tron can handle them fairly easily. even with a bunch of needle effects pushing through countermagic and the walkers threatening to ultimate is typically too much to handle, and tron just...does tron things. tron destroys lantern, and i dont see anything that would change that dichotomy in URx whir.
On paper Tron might look like a poor matchup but it ultimately has a really hard time fighting through Damping Sphere, the multiple Sorcerous Spyglass and the Tec Edge+Crucible lock. Lantern tries to lock the player out in a different manner, one which is much harder to achieve against Tron due to the sheer amount of relevant threats and Chromatic Sphere.
The same goes for BGx, with Whir serving as copies 5-8 of any needed artifact along with the 4 Ancient Stirrings the deck is redundant enough to consistently land a Bridge with one of the 4 Welding Jars through disruption. Then you only need to find a needle effect for Liliana and the game will eventually drag out until you´ve found enough Jar/Bridges that the few Decay effects won´t suffice. Post SB the 4 Spellskite make it even harder to get a Bridge off the table and Whir also brings in additional needle effects + Sai.
The deck is by no means easy to play and a big factor, at least in paper, is actually the clock. If you´re playing against someone who, either out of stubbornness or inexperience refuses to concede, then the games can often go to time since actually winning the game is a very tedious process, especially game 1.
I´ve played with and against Whir a good amount recently and I believe the deck is a serious contender to be the next best deck in modern. With KCI gone which was one of the worst matchups, and many KCI players gravitating towards picking the deck up themselves I reckon we´re going to see alot more of it in the near future.
Not really. KCI was actually a pretty decent match up in my experience. Also, targeted discard is a great answer to slow down Whir Prison, since the earliest Prison can cast it is turn 2 (outside of a double Mox opening). BGx can easily run 8 efficient Targeted discard spells and 12 efficient "Destroy target Permanent" effects in their 75. Turn 1 targeted discard will hit Whir. Every time. Post board, Abzan in particular is noteworthy as a nightmarish match up because they get spells like Stony Silence and Rest in Peace which do a lot to make Prison very, very vulnerable to BGx's removal.
The main issue with Tron is that you aren't able to shut them off fast enough that the speed bump of Damping Sphere is enough. They can actually afford to wait 7-8 turns to cast Karn or Ugin against Whir Prison. You need at least 3 Pithing Needle effects to shut off their relevent removal, Damping Sphere, at least 1 Bridge, and either Academy Ruins + Spellbomb or Crucible + Rivulet. This is game 1, before they board in Bombs, Needles/Spyglasses, and Relics (if they forgot them in their 60 for some reason).
Don't get me wrong- Whir prison is a fantastic deck, that's well positioned in the meta and quite resilient to many forms of hate... but it is far from unanswerable. It's just really good against decks that trade away resiliency or interactivity for speed. Specifically, decks like Bogles, Grishoalbrand, Dredge, Living End, Izzet Phoenix, and similar strategies. If a deck is looking to go long though, it's usually a pretty bad match up.
I'd say that it's effect is less degeneracy and more that it makes decks partially homogenized. Basically, unless there's a very good reason not to, you should be starting every deck with 4 Chrome Mox, if it's legal. If anything though, it makes traditionally "fair" decks (aggro, control, ramp, and midrange) better against "unfair" (combo) decks. Admittedly, I think labeling decks "fair" or "unfair" is a bit loaded, but it's how the developers seem to think of things.
This. My dude, the last thing you want is Dread Return available to Dredge.
Honestly, I'm happy they didn't ban it into the ground. I don't buy the hype around the current incarnation of the deck. It's just another resilient combo package with a few low percentage early wins. The only thing exceptional about it is that it doesn't rely on the graveyard as much as other combo shells, so people often don't build sideboards with cards that work well against it. I don't really get why people get resentful about losing to a combo deck, but I see it a lot, since I'm on Dice Factory Combo in paper. It's not as resilient to hate as Amulet combo, but it's got a better early win chance.
Fixed it for you.
In my experience, Dread Return only needs Narcomoeba and Bloodghast as free creatures. GGT is great, but not required for combo dredge to function. Breakthrough is amazing, but Faithless Looting gets the job done. If they traded Bridge from Below to the banned list to get Dread Return off of it, it would still cause problems with cards like Lingering Souls to fuel very cheap reanimation. It's less of a problem than it is with Bridge, but it will always be an issue. I should clarify though- Manaless or Landless Dredge doesn't work well in Modern or NBLM and isn't really an issue. The only difference between Combo Dredge and Aggro Dredge is how many turns they expect to kill you over. Combo Dredge kills in 1 turn, basically. Aggro Dredge will kill you over 2-4 turns, but is way more resilient to hate.
While Dark Depths is obviously never coming off the banned list, I think you're vastly overselling how effective it is. It's strong, but it's pretty straight forward to counter: Ensnaring Bridge, Needle Hexmage/Stage, Path/exile spells, sac spells, or bounce spells. In my mind, the most problematic element about this card isn't the speed or the effect, it's the fact that basically any deck that runs lands can get rejigged to run the combo and still be efficient. That means you have to respect it, even if the actual effect isn't even that strong in the scheme of things.
I dunno. Without Ironworks, the only other cards that are actually problematic with the Artifact lands are Mox Opal, Cranial Plating, and Arcbound Ravager. Without Ravager and Plating, Affinity goes back to being Robots, which is a lot less impressive in my experience. Likewise, Jitte just doesn't really cut it. 9 times out of 10, unless you've got a hard lock on the opponent, you'll lose the turn you drop Jitte to a combo or a boardwipe. In my experience, the only really playable Equipment currently is Batterskull, and even then only as a combo piece in. Also, do not dismiss how strong Skullclamp is in "unfair" strategies, like Dredge, Affinity, and Elves. Clamp is just a fundamentally broken card.
Top is probably a little too much card selection to have with Fetches for Modern, I think. But in terms of power level, I agree that it's a very borderline case. That said, sitting through someone playing a deck with Top, but unfamiliar with how to use it is one of the most boring and aggrivating things about NBLM. At least with Eggs-like decks you can step away for a second to get a hot dog, but with a Top deck, everything you do has 30 seconds of hemming and hawing over the top three cards of their library before you can move on... only for your opponent to do it again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and... I digress. The funniest thing about it is that they'll often lose since they blow so much mana making sure they have the perfect order of their top 3, that they don't have enough to actually answer your play. It's kind of noob trap card in a way.
As for cards that would improve the Meta: Containment Priest is a must have. Having it in the format would help a lot, since it answers so many shenanigans.
So here's the Tezzerator deck I'm on in NBLM:
1 Academy Ruins
2 Inventors' Fair
1 Ipnu Rivulet
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Island
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Seat of the Synod
2 Tolaria West
Artifact
2 Welding Jar
1 Witchbane Orb
4 Chrome Mox
4 Mox Opal
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sorcerous Spyglass
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Chalice of the Void
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Damping Sphere
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Spellskite
4 Whir of Invention
2 Thirst for Knowledge
2 Repeal
Sorcery
4 Gitaxian Probe
Planeswalker
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Bottled Cloister
1 Ghoulcaller's Bell
1 Pyrite Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Damping Sphere
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Spellskite
1 Walking Ballista
2 Sai, Master Thopterist
I've never really had much issue with activating both Moxen with this list, and it beats the pants off of everything except the mirror and White Weenie.It's a little less explosive than the versions with Gemstone Caverns, but it's a bit more consistent.
I don't think Belcher is the reason Chrome Mox should stay on the banned list. You actually can build a fairly consistent Belcher deck with just Chrome Mox, and Mox Opal as your mana base, shockingly enough, but that's beside the point really. Chrome Mox is an incredibly swingy card, especially on the play, when you're up 2 mana to nothing on turn 1. It gives most aggro, midrange, and control decks a huge leg up if they get to start with it, to the point where the advantage can easily snowball way out of control. I'd argue that the reason Fairies was so dominant was the Chrome Mox into Spellstutter Sprite starts. The only way to compete is to run 4 Chrome Mox yourself. It's a major issue in terms of deckbuilding balance. If you're building a deck with colored spells, it's usually correct to start with 4 Chrome Mox. Heck, half of the reason Tezzerator is so strong in NBLM is that it can afford to run Chrome Mox and Mox Opal, allowing some truly absurd turn 1 plays. Trust me, Chrome Mox should stay banned, and was absolutely a design mistake. There are three cards on the Banned List that absolutely need to stay banned or Modern will no longer be a fun format for most people: Skullclamp, Dread Return, and Chrome Mox. I can conceive of ways that you could make a meta to balance Dark Depths, Umezawa's Jitte, the artifact lands, or Sensei's Divining Top, but those three just break the game in half. You'd need to completely rework the rules to make them fair.
Invade the City looks like a solid threat for UR Phoenix decks. I don't know if its better than Crackling Drake, but it is cheaper, which is nice.
Vivian's Arkbow is borderline playable. I could see an argument for it in Vizier Druid combo decks as a way to tutor out a kill combo, but I don't think it's better than Recruiter in that shell. I could also see a hypothetical creature-based ramp deck wanting it, but I'm not really aware of deck that can utilize the Arkbow in Modern. It isn't a Survival of the Fittest replacement, it isn't a Birthing Pod replacement, and I don't think it's quite strong enough to spawn a new archetype.
Flux Channeler is interesting. It's got an obvious home in Dice Factory Combo, but I'm not sure how "win more" it is. I do know that I'll have fun trying her out though.
Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage could be a budget replacement for Liliana of the Veil in 8-rack.
Karn, the Great Creator seems to be pretty... situational at best. He's basically 2 Artifact Wishes stapled to a Stony Silence. I mean, it's neat that he can almost be a 1-card combo with Mycosynth Lattice, but you've still got to actually cast, resolve, and protect the Lattice. He's powerful to be sure, but I'm drawing a blank on any deck that would actually be more effective with him in it's 60. I can definitely see him as a sideboard card in Tron though. I could be mistaken on this guy, and he might be strong enough to spawn a new archetype, but I don't see him taking over Modern. It is cool that he can kill opposing Chalice of the Voids with his +1.
Kaya's Ghostform is a very interesting card to me. On one hand, it's initially card disadvantage, and is basically a do-nothing spell. However, the fact that it's a 1-mana card that could allow you reuse planeswalkers after they ultimate in B is pretty interesting, especially since you can immediately use their abilities again right after. I could see an Esper or Sultai Superfriends deck running a few of these in the 60. It's almost like a mini Sun Titan.
Dovin's Veto is a nice upgrade on Negate for UWx control. Not much to say on it either way, but it will see play.
Angrath's Rampage is almost playable. I like the modal nature of it, but the decks that need this effect need it at instant speed. So close, yet so far.
Ral, Storm Conduit looks like a solid choice for Jeskai Control sideboards. He's a little too expensive for his effects in Phoenix or Storm, but he's great as a way to grind out prison decks and control decks. Turning Lightning Helix into 8 damage and 6 life is pretty strong with his -2. Heck, even Lightning Bolts become 8 damage for 1 mana, if I'm reading the way his -2 interacts with his passive correctly.
Really? I remember it being pretty... well, bad, against everything except Tron and Ramp decks, which it ate for lunch. It just didn't have the interaction to protect itself against midrange or control's interactive elements, other combo decks just outpaced it, it raced poorly against aggro in general because the sweepers really weren't up to par, and it could only barely fuel DTT at all. Honestly, Azcanta and Growth Spiral make the current decks a lot stronger and more flexible. It's actually a pretty solid pick into Izzet Phoenix, since you can run Anger of the Gods and Echoing Truth pretty easily, though Death's Shadow is tough.
Weren't both BBE and DRS legal during the TC meta? Also, Scapeshift, even with DTT, wasn't as good as people think it was. I was on it at the time, and my dude, that deck was a pile. It was way too slow for the format, was in the unenviable position of getting smacked around by Pod and Delver, and wasn't able to fuel DTT properly.
In Modern, the most infamous example is probably Pod. It took a giant dump on Delver, the UR Xerox deck of the time period, and it got banned. Was the deck actually OP? At the time, it was a surprisingly borderline case despite ballooning to over 20% of the meta due to how soundly it beat Delver, which was pushing 15% itself, IIRC. It was one of the early examples of when people began to cotton onto how the Meta might become imbalanced by indirect means.
I would say that the Twin lists I saw around in the TC meta weren't well optimized for Dig, rather than that its objectively worse than Jeskai Ascendency combo or Scapeshift. No Probe, No Bauble, no looting, and more of a focus on being able to grind it out with Snapcasters were the hallmarks of that era of Twin. When you run Dig in Twin, you're not playing the control game at all. It's an all in combo deck with a few pieces of interaction to protect your combo or stall for a turn or two. It's pretty good, too. Based on how that performs in NBLM, I'm pretty convinced that even without Chrome Mox it would have performed quite well in Modern.
No. Of the two cards, I would say that DTT is the more problematic card over all, even if it didn't get its time in the lime light. I would be in favor of allowing Treasure Cruise back in Modern before I'd ever consider DTT. Treasure Cruise's issue is how splashable it is. It's usually correct, or at least a reasonable choice, to run 2-4 TC in most fair decks and splash blue. Cruise could have been printed at a fair cost even with Delve, though. UU7 would have been good, but not overly splashable, I think. Having run both in a variety decks in NBLM, I'd say that if a deck can support UU, it should be running 2-3 DTT- though it just breaks combo decks in half. Honestly, Dig is almost worth its normal CMC. Look at the top 7, take 2 at instant speed is way too good for 2 card combo decks. Twin with DTT is absurdly consistent, and if you know they have DTT, you have to treat them as having the combo in hand. Yes, it's really expensive, but that effect is hard to argue with. With Delve, DTT is probably a better card than Impulse at finding combo pieces for 2 mana, just to put this discussion in perspective. In my experience, the only deck where there's even a discussion over which is better, is UR Storm. If you're playing Swathstorm, then objectively DTT is just better, but if you're playing any list that runs PiF then Cruise is probably a little easier to support since it's less reliant on its Delve Cost in practice.
All of that said, bear in mind that a lot of this is based on what the Meta pressures of NBLM are: Chalice of the Void, Counterbalance, and Mental Misstep are the main "counters." Fast Mana through Chrome Mox is way more common.
Everyone jumped on the Delver bandwagon because the deck was dirt cheap for an Eternal Format, but Twin was probably the deck which would have broken Dig once Pod was banned.
While I agree with the basic sentiment, it is always sad to see decks get pushed out of a format by a ban, I think playing some NBLM might give you some perspective on why certain certain cards need to be on the ban list. Gitaxian Probe is honestly worthy of a ban. It's less about it fitting into every deck (because it really, really doesn't) and more about how it makes "all in" decks way too safe. While there are some questionables on the list right now, by and large it's a pretty decent pick of the cards that break, warp, or make the format toxic to play in for most players. Sure, Stoneforge Mystic and Preordain really have no business on the banned list, and Green Sun's Zenith, Splinter Twin, Hypergensis, Birthing Pod, and Punishing Fire are all pretty in line with the current levels of power in Modern. However, even though Ascendancy Combo died because of Treasure Cruise's banning, it's definitely for the best.
Tunneling in on the decks that have been banned away without thinking about how those decks affected the format as a whole is a bit disingenuous.
I dunno man. Library is probably a bit too slow for any Death's Shadow build I'm aware of. The only somewhat competitive deck I can think of right now that Sylvan Library would go in is BG Rock. It would also put Bant Wilderness on the map, though. That said, Library is highly unlikely to get a reprint in its' current templating. I could see them trying a "fixed" version, but I doubt it. The main thing I'd be looking for are new enemy colored commands, and maybe a monocolored charm cycle. Miscalculation, Complicate, and the Onslaught Decrees could be neat, too.
So... Street Wraith, basically?
Not really. KCI was actually a pretty decent match up in my experience. Also, targeted discard is a great answer to slow down Whir Prison, since the earliest Prison can cast it is turn 2 (outside of a double Mox opening). BGx can easily run 8 efficient Targeted discard spells and 12 efficient "Destroy target Permanent" effects in their 75. Turn 1 targeted discard will hit Whir. Every time. Post board, Abzan in particular is noteworthy as a nightmarish match up because they get spells like Stony Silence and Rest in Peace which do a lot to make Prison very, very vulnerable to BGx's removal.
The main issue with Tron is that you aren't able to shut them off fast enough that the speed bump of Damping Sphere is enough. They can actually afford to wait 7-8 turns to cast Karn or Ugin against Whir Prison. You need at least 3 Pithing Needle effects to shut off their relevent removal, Damping Sphere, at least 1 Bridge, and either Academy Ruins + Spellbomb or Crucible + Rivulet. This is game 1, before they board in Bombs, Needles/Spyglasses, and Relics (if they forgot them in their 60 for some reason).
Don't get me wrong- Whir prison is a fantastic deck, that's well positioned in the meta and quite resilient to many forms of hate... but it is far from unanswerable. It's just really good against decks that trade away resiliency or interactivity for speed. Specifically, decks like Bogles, Grishoalbrand, Dredge, Living End, Izzet Phoenix, and similar strategies. If a deck is looking to go long though, it's usually a pretty bad match up.