After almost a year off of Magic, the siren call lured me back. So I'll be going to FNM tonight and sleeving up DredgeVine. Unlike most in the thread (at least that I've seen) I run DredgeVine with a Rites package. 1. I find it more interesting and fun; 2. I feel like it gives me a few more outs in a lot of matchups; and 3. I can sometimes sneak out a few wins because my opponents either aren't familiar with what I'm doing or end up focusing on the wrong thing. Make no mistake, this is a Vengevine deck at its core and that's almost always Plan A when I'm playing, but sometimes the sight of Elesh or Iona gets people distracted.
I know it looks odd in some spots, but I've had a fair amount of success with the build - at least when I regularly played; we'll see what happens after tonight having been gone a year. As stated earlier in the thread, this archetype really rewards experience and knowing your deck inside and out. I'm happy to report back on what happens tonight.
Dangit Pizza...just when I started to like my deck you bring up Varolz and now I'm wondering how I can slip him in.... That deck looks sweet, though with the Wayfinders and Lootings do you have enough stuff to reliably fill your graveyard or are you just relying on Varolz and Lotleth to make up the difference?
Also, just call your deck DredgelessVine and you're good. Still has dredge in the name!
re: Gnaw to the Bone - I still like one maindeck. I'd say 70% of the time it's a blank card for me. Either I'm winning or losing before it becomes a significant factor, but 30% of the time I use it as a fall back to either buy a little time or 'reset' my life total. It's not uncommon for me to lose around 8-10 life just from fetch-shocking myself, which puts me at a disadvantage against many (if not most) decks by halving the work my opponent has to do to win.
Another FNM, another 4-0 for me. We had 13 players show up so there was definitely more variety last night than there's been in the past. I'm very comfortable with my deck and how it has been performing. I recently made the switch away from Vexing Devils to Rotting Rats and I think it's for the better. And I added one Life from the Loam just to increase the dredge count as well as fix mana in a pinch. Really, the only slots I worry about from week to week are the Unburial Rites targets. Here's my current build if anyone's interested:
I need a revamp for this deck. Avatar of Woe was good for a while, but my meta changed. Now that I have fetches, Bloodghast is an option, but that Rites package just seems so much more inviting. So, Bloodghast or Unburial Rites + Elesh-Norn?
I don't care for rites since now you need white mana somewhere. I do like Vengeful Pharaoh though.
If you're running fetches, access to white, particularly with shocklands, shouldn't be an issue. As a current Rites-Vine player, I wholeheartedly recommend tossing them in. They are another angle to attack from and in some matchups are extremely relevant. Also, I ran Bloodghasts for a long time and eventually just cut them. While they do come back often, especially with fetches, they don't block. I'm already running Gravecrawlers. I don't need redundancy in the offense-only creature suite.
I'll echo what pizzap said about Gnaw and Skaab Ruinator. I run both, and in the past have doubled up on both (meaning I ran two copies of each maindeck) but that's really overkill. I've found 1x Gnaw to be helpful since I run the fetch package and depending on the opponent, it can be a stabilizing card early or late. Same with Skaab. It's there primarily to turn on Gravecrawler as well as be anther option to cast from the graveyard. The fact that it's a big body and a flier also helps in some matchups. But as pizzap alluded to, you only ever want to eat your non-recurring creatures (Crab, BoP, Vexing Devil, etc.) so multiples can be awkward and sucky.
However, both are among the first things cut post-board depending on matchups. I like having them there game 1 as catch-alls, but games 2 and 3 I'm usually on a set plan and know if I'll need them or not.
RE: Treasure Cruise - As one of the blue splash players I'd say that off first impressions, I'm indifferent towards it at the moment. 8 mana to draw three cards is not where it's at, but let's be honest, you're going to always delve something for a 'discount' on this spell. So the question to me then is, how consistently will I be getting max value from this card (i.e. U to draw three)? The answer is, probably not a high percentage of the time. In my build I run around 28 or so creatures, and of those 28 or so, there are around 13-15 that I want/need to stay in the graveyard and are not viable delve targets. Of course there are lands that I can delve away (I'm not running loam), but even some of our other sorcery cards have flashback that make keeping them in the graveyard useful, if not necessary. Because I run blue I also run Skaab Ruinator, which is essentially a 1UU+delve 3 creature, and I'd rather be getting a 5/6 flying zombie that turns on Gravecrawler with my delveable targets than just drawing three.
I'm not interested in working out percentages of how many times I'll have more than seven relevant cards in the graveyard that I'm willing to delve away, but my gut tells me it's low. So I'm really looking at a more realistic possibility of delving away three or four cards, which means I'm now casting this for 3-5 mana a pop in order to quasi refill my hand. Doesn't seem great. I'd rather spend 3 mana flashing back a Faithless Looting to dump cards in the graveyard than have them sit in my hand. It does me no good to draw three and end up with two Stinkweed Imps and a Vengevine with no opportunity to drop any of them in the graveyard, or worse, three lands.
Not to mention that this doesn't get better but actually gets worse in multiples, at least for my build. The first one you cast will probably have a decent delve discount, but as the game goes on, there will either be fewer cards in your graveyard or fewer delveable targets, which doesn't excite me.
I think the biggest issue for me though is that refilling my hand is not something I'm usually interested in doing in DredgeVine. I want cards in the graveyard, not my hand. Sure, I need something in my hand to deal with obstacles (removal) or to trigger Vengevines (creatures) but, particularly with the latter, I'm hoping that my hand is appropriately shaped to start the game or soon after and not because I drew two Gravecrawlers and a Lightning Bolt off a pseudo-Ancestral. Given the choice, I'd rather dredge and play out of my yard than my hand.
Maybe pizzap has a different opinion. It's worth testing just to make sure i'm not completely off base, but on the surface I'm not preordering a playset for day 1 inclusion.
I'll follow up my last post by reporting that I went 4-0 last night with my DredgeVine deck at FNM. I was reasonably happy with the deck and it's performance, though one of my wins came from my opponent not reading the cards and paying attention to board state.
Round 1 - Mono White Humans
Game one my opponent starts off with Champion of the Parish into Soldier of the Pantheon/Champion of the Parish on turn two which is enough to get there. Too fast for me to set up and get going. Game two he stalls out on land while I get turn three 3x Vengevines going. That was enough. Game three was more back and forth, but here's where my opponent made the mistake I mentioned earlier. He had me dead on board with a 2/2 Champion and a 2/1 Soldier and me sitting at 4 life. The only removal I had was an Abrupt Decay that couldn't target the Soldier and would only buy me a turn against the Champion anyway. So I decided to cast two Gravecrawlers (i.e. can't-blockers) and see what happened (also, no Vengevines in the yard sadly). He looks at the Crawlers, even turns the cards around to read them, and then decides to pass the turn. Um, ok? So I draw nothing relevant, and swing with the Crawlers, and he blocks one of them taking 2 from the other. The one Crawler kills one of his guys, hits the graveyard and I simply recast it. I pass the turn, he draws, thinks, and passes back. Rinse and repeat. I swing with both again and this time he blocks again, and...crisis averted. There was no way I should have won, but I'll take it. Gotta read the cards.
1-0
Round 2 - Mono Green Stompy
This matchup was against one of the newer players to modern in our store. Both games were over in relatively short order. The first game I returned 4 Vengevines to play at once and overwhelmed him. The second game I Rites'd back an Elesh Norn to wipe his board and lock it up.
2-0
Round 4 - Bant
This guy usually plays G/W Hatebears, but decided to switch it up into a Bant deck. It's not a bad deck, but my threats were more significant than his both games. That being said, playing against him was the toughest of the night and caused me to really slow down, sequence things correctly and make sure everything was in order. Both games were defined by me eventually Rites'ing back an Elesh Norn into play with him not being able to find his Supreme Verdict in time to restabilize.
4-0
Not the most flawless games of Magic I've ever played, but wins are wins and there were no times in any of the matchups where I felt overmatched or outclassed. I will say that I've been playing DredgeVine now for 3 months solidly (not to mention online frequently) and the familiarity with the deck has been a HUGE advantage for me. This really is a deck you need to jam frequently to understand all the outs, tricks and plays available because it doesn't really play the same way each time you play it against a variety of opponents.
Thanks to the new Kharns fetches that were spoiled, I will be picking up fetch lands for this deck. I was thinking something along the lines of 3 Verdant Catacombs, 2 Bloodstained Mire and 3 Wooded Foothills.
I've tried both and between the two I'd lean towards Bloodghast over Avatar of Woe, but that's if I had to choose. I don't really like either, but Bloodghast gets the nod for a few reasons. 1. If you're using a fetch manabase, he comes back early and often. 2. The few times I've actually had an Avatar in play, it seems to be answered quite easily. Rarely do I get the Avatar active and wreaking havoc, not to mention that I usually have a hard time just getting it on the battlefield in the first place (and I am fully capable of admitting that that is probably due to just dumb luck and random situations in games I've played).
The problem I have with Bloodghast though is that it can't block, which can be extremely relevant in the later game. Coupled with Gravecrawler you can have up to 7-8 creatures in your deck that only work one way. Risk/Reward for sure and I think both are definitely additions DredgeVine has to consider, but when a third of your creature base can't stop an opponent's creatures, that can suck. Another problem is that while it's fine and dandy to have a Ghast keep coming back, it does nothing to trigger Vengevine, nor is it a zombie to turn on Gravecrawler, etc. It usually feels like an almost-appropriate addition to the deck, but not the cog you need.
So what is the answer? I'm not sure. I've been dinking around with Vexing Devil in the Bloodghast spot lately which I've been reasonably happy with. The same types of arguments can be made about the devil (and have, so I won't rehash them here), but if it sticks, it can block (relevant) and casting it does trigger the Vengevine (relevant) which is enough for me for right now to give it the nod over Bloodghast in my deck.
All that to say that I'm the weird guy running DredgeVine with Unburial Rites, so take this for what it's worth.
Has anyone ever tried dream twist instead of hedron crab in versions of this deck splashing blue? By the looks of it, it seems like an almost ancestral recall for dredge?
I run the crab and I wouldn't ever consider swapping out for this. Particularly with fetch lands, the crab is milling often 6 cards a turn, and it gets insane if you have multiple crabs out. Second, the crab costs 1 blue once, while the cost to mill six from the twist is 3. Third, the crab is a creature which by nature turns on Vengevine, which twist doesn't. Finally, the crab is a body that in a pinch can block buying you time if needed. For all those reasons I wouldn't swap out the crab for the twist, nor would I add the twist in place of something else either.
@4554551n - I won't speak for creamy99, but I would think you'd want to increase the dredge count for two reasons. (1) dredge cards give you guaranteed Pack Rat discard outlets every turn; and (2) while grabbing the dredge card, you're also loading up your graveyard at a pace of greater than one card per turn, which is kind of the point of DredgeVine. If the gameplan is to get to three mana and sit back on a rat army, it's drifting away from the purpose of this deck. If Pack Rat exists in the deck as a nice backup/alternate plan in cases when needed, then there might be something there.
Another important (and probably obvious) thing - the tokens aren't cast, so they do nothing to 'activate' the Vengevines, which to me make PR more of a non-synergistic piece in the deck than I'd prefer.
Saying all of this, I haven't tested with it at all. PR is a powerhouse in the right build. I just don't know if this one takes full advantage of him.
Another night, another decent performance with the deck. I went 2-1 with it (we ended up scratching the fourth round for some reason), with my only loss coming to Affinity and poor mulligan decisions. A quick recap:
Round 1 - Junk Gifts
Game one he Raven's Crime'd me twice (thanks!) which got the ball rolling pretty early and he scooped once I had a few Vengevines on the table. Game two I got off to a slow start and he stuck an Elesh Norn that locked things up for him. Game three I fought through a Damnation and returned a Vengevine and hasty Bloodghast to seal the deal.
2-1 (1-0)
Round 2 - Affinity
Game one he landed two Vault Skirges and two Cranial Platings, but Gnaw to the Bone coupled with constantly dredged Stinkweed Imps eventually cleared the board for my Vengevines and Co. to take the game. Game two I should have mulliganed harder for my sideboard hate, but didn't and a turn three Etched Champion followed by a turn four Cranial Plating was enough to move to game three. Game three went to time and he got it in turns with the same game plan as game two. I may have had a chance to do something by Rites-ing back an Elesh, but he had previously exiled my white mana source and I had the wrong color fetch in my hand.
1-2 (1-1)
Round 3 - GW Auras
Game one he got out a Bogle and suited it up, but miscalculated on the combat math and left himself open for lethal on the swingback. Game 2 he landed an early Scavenging Ooze and I didn't draw any removal and that was enough. Game three I Rites'd an Iona into play naming white which effectively shut him down.
2-1 (2-1)
I'm relatively set on the mainboard, however I'm going to be making one small change: -1x Gnaw to the Bone, +1x Mystic Retrieval. I need something to get back the Decays and Bolts that I inevitably end up dredging or milling away and this is the best option I think I have. The sideboard as always is being tweaked and I plan on taking the following list to FNM later this week:
As much as Stony Silence hoses Affinity, with the Mystic Retrieval, I'm going to try relying on the Creeping Corrosion and Rakdos Charms to get there. We'll see if that works. Plus, I don't have to rely on an early white source to get the Silence on board.
I played DredgeVine again last night at FNM and to my pleasant surprise there were 9 of us so I actually got some more variety in my matches. I went 2-2 overall, but my two losses were close and with perhaps different lines of play I may have been able to change an outcome or two. The deck is solid and provides multiple lines of play, which I value, allowing me to switch gears depending on the situations. I felt like all my losses were due to my misplays or 'missed opportunities' rather than the deck's fault.
@creamy - I did what you suggested and mainboarded more removal and it definitely helped (and I didn't miss the Darkblasts at all).
Round 1 - Mono-Green Ramp
This was the first time I played against this fellow so I didn't really know what to expect. In Game 1 his mana dorks and enchantments ended up accelerating out a Primeval Titan and Pathrazer of Ulamog. I was one turn behind being able to stabilize and got some Kessig Wolf Run action in my face. Games 2 and 3 though I was able to overwhelm him with Gravecrawlers and Vengevines before he had a chance to set up.
2-1 (1-0)
Round 2 - GW Hexproof
Game 1 he rode a Dryad Arbor and a few Daybreak Coronets to the win before I found any relevant removal. Game 2 he boarded in his Scavenging Oozes and Rest in Peaces to fight my graveyard tricks, so I decided to 'play fair' and just cast a turn one Birds of Paradise which accelerated me into back to back Vengevines on turn three and four. Game 3 we both flooded out hard and he ended up finding a creature before I found anything to dredge or cast. Literally ANYTHING I could have found would have helped, but alas, them's the breaks sometimes.
1-2 (1-1)
Round 3 - Pod (Melira? - In either game I never saw a Melira or Viscera Seer, so I'm assuming, but it could have just been Junk Pod)
Game 1 was probably the craziest game with this deck I've played to date. He understandably doesn't have much graveyard interaction in game 1 so I pretty much have free reign to get things rolling and get my board set up, which I do. Long story short, I get him down to around 5 or so life before he plops down a Kitchen Finks and an Archangel of Thune. Awesome. I kept crashing in with creatures (I had the numbers) but I couldn't ever get over the hump and eventually the Archangel, Finks, and a few-turns-later Scavenging Ooze sealed the deal for him. All in all that first game took 35 minutes. So we shuffled up for the second game and got rolling with around 13 minutes left in the match. Game 2 he ended up getting out a Linvala, Keeper of Silence and a Restoration Angel before I could stabilize and that was that.
0-2 (1-2)
Round 4 - UWR Control
Much like Pod, my opponent had zero ways to profitably interact with my dredging in Game 1. This allowed me to build a board of 3 Hedron Crabs, 3 Vengevines, 1 Bloodghast and 2 Gravecrawlers. Still, he cast 3 Cryptic Commands (tapping my creatures) and flashed back 2 of them with Snapcaster Mage which stretched the game out a bit. But once he was out of Cryptic tricks, I overwhelmed him and swung for the win. Game 2 I switched to a more Gifts-Unburial package and went lighter on the dredging. On turn four I was able to Rites an Iona, Shield of Emeria into play (naming blue) and then follow that up the next turn by Rites-ing an Empyrial Archangel into play. That was enough.
2-0 (2-2)
Takeaways - (1) I wasn't expecting to see Pod and so my sideboard was not too helpful for that (Torpor Orb would have been nice). Also, I have to figure out a way to get rid of an Archangel of Thune. Abrupt Decay doesn't work and Lightning Bolt is too small. Perhaps I toss a Lightning Axe into the mix. (2) My UWR Control opponent misplayed in Game 2 when I Rites'd in the Iona. He had a Path to Exile in his graveyard and a Snapcaster Mage in his hand (with mana to cast) that he could have played targeting the Path to force me to name white instead of blue. He missed it, but I had no clue either because I wasn't paying too much attention to his graveyard. I need to be more aware of those things. (3) As lame as it sounds, GW Hexproof is relevant enough in my meta that I might just have to put a Back to Nature or two in my sideboard for that matchup (maybe in place of the Darkblast?). Otherwise I'm stuck one for one trading my removal with their enchantments and their curve is lower.
Overall though, I was really happy with the deck and the choices. I'm a fan of the Rites package because it allows another line of play mid-to-late game and I think it takes focus off of some of the 'smaller' things in the deck. Hedron Crabs have been all-stars for me allowing me to really dump a LOT of stuff in my graveyard. But those 0/2 walls look pretty innocuous when my opponent can see an Elesh Norn sitting in the graveyard.
I have always loved the Rites package in the old Dredgevine lists from the older days. I give you props for running it.
But, without any removal with the exception of 2 Darkblast, and cards that are usually sideboard cards, how do you even win? Life from the Loam is good, but as a 2 of with 22 lands, it definitely seems out of place. I can see the Gnaw to the Bone from taking all the damage with fetch and shock lands.
Personally, just from looking at this without testing it, I think that moving the Darkblast to the sideboard and cutting Life from the Loam maybe altogether and replacing them with either Abrupt Decay or Lightning Bolt would do you a lot of good. Even Lightning Axe has potential to work here, but without some decent removal, I find it near impossible to push through all of the necessary damage. Bolt deals the final blow to players, Abrupt Decay deals with Goyf and Lilliana. Getting these out of the way is essential.
Against the decks you said, Darkblast works well vs Soul Sisters, Affinity and Delver. It is terrible vs Pod, Control and Mono-G. Just seems logical to me to be a sideboard card. When I first started playing Dredgevine a year ago, I was gung ho on Darkblast as a 3-4 of because it could dredge. After a few months, I decided to switch it to the SB and replaced it with Bolt. Where I didn't reuse it, I was able to kill the annoying creatures Darkblast couldn't deal with and I started becoming so much more consistent and faster. Just trying to provide some useful suggestions. I'm sure someone from this thread can back me up on this.
I couldn't agree more with the Darkblast sentiments, and this was after playing it in just two matchups. On paper it seems great, but I found myself rarely using it and wishing it was something else in pretty much every game. Same for the Life from the Loam. While great in theory, I cast it once and it was there more for the Dredge aspect than it was for anything else. I didn't post the sideboard, but I had the full set of Abrupt Decay in there and would rather just have them main to start. I'll try either the Lightning Bolt or the Lightning Axe main and see how that works. You're right that I'm a little removal light at the moment. I'll tweak things around and let you know what sticks. Thanks!
Hey everyone. This is my first time posting on this thread, but I took Dredgevine to a Modern tourney tonight and wanted to post the results. Sadly though there were only three of us who showed up which means I only got two actual games in along with a bye. Still, I'll share the list here and continue to update as I play in other tourneys. We have a two regular Modern nights a week at our shop and Fridays get a better turnout. Anyway, here's the list:
In playing it tonight I only faced Bogles and Affinity, but in my meta we also have RUG Control, Soul Sisters, UR Delver, Melira Pod and Mono-Green Devotion, so I'm hoping to get some more testing in against the other matchups. I'll keep you posted.
In any case, here's the 75 I'm bringing tonight:
1x Blood Crypt
1x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
3x Polluted Delta
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Gravecrawler
4x Hedron Crab
1x Malfegor
4x Rotting Rats
1x Skaab Ruinator
4x Stinkweed Imp
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
4x Vengevine
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Lightning Bolt
4x Faithless Looting
1x Life from the Loam
2x Unburial Rites
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Golgari Charm
1x Batterskull
2x Darkblast
1x Godo, Bandit Warlord
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Ray of Revelation
2x Thoughtseize
I know it looks odd in some spots, but I've had a fair amount of success with the build - at least when I regularly played; we'll see what happens after tonight having been gone a year. As stated earlier in the thread, this archetype really rewards experience and knowing your deck inside and out. I'm happy to report back on what happens tonight.
Also, just call your deck DredgelessVine and you're good. Still has dredge in the name!
re: Gnaw to the Bone - I still like one maindeck. I'd say 70% of the time it's a blank card for me. Either I'm winning or losing before it becomes a significant factor, but 30% of the time I use it as a fall back to either buy a little time or 'reset' my life total. It's not uncommon for me to lose around 8-10 life just from fetch-shocking myself, which puts me at a disadvantage against many (if not most) decks by halving the work my opponent has to do to win.
1x Blood Crypt
1x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
1x Godless Shrine
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
Creature (27)
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Gravecrawler
4x Hedron Crab
1x Malfegor
4x Rotting Rats
1x Skaab Ruinator
4x Stinkweed Imp
1x Vengeful Pharaoh
4x Vengevine
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Lightning Bolt
Sorcery (7)
4x Faithless Looting
1x Life from the Loam
2x Unburial Rites
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Back to Nature
1x Batterskull
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Godo, Bandit Warlord
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Spellskite
2x Thoughtseize
If you're running fetches, access to white, particularly with shocklands, shouldn't be an issue. As a current Rites-Vine player, I wholeheartedly recommend tossing them in. They are another angle to attack from and in some matchups are extremely relevant. Also, I ran Bloodghasts for a long time and eventually just cut them. While they do come back often, especially with fetches, they don't block. I'm already running Gravecrawlers. I don't need redundancy in the offense-only creature suite.
Agreed on the Vengeful Pharaoh though.
However, both are among the first things cut post-board depending on matchups. I like having them there game 1 as catch-alls, but games 2 and 3 I'm usually on a set plan and know if I'll need them or not.
I'm not interested in working out percentages of how many times I'll have more than seven relevant cards in the graveyard that I'm willing to delve away, but my gut tells me it's low. So I'm really looking at a more realistic possibility of delving away three or four cards, which means I'm now casting this for 3-5 mana a pop in order to quasi refill my hand. Doesn't seem great. I'd rather spend 3 mana flashing back a Faithless Looting to dump cards in the graveyard than have them sit in my hand. It does me no good to draw three and end up with two Stinkweed Imps and a Vengevine with no opportunity to drop any of them in the graveyard, or worse, three lands.
Not to mention that this doesn't get better but actually gets worse in multiples, at least for my build. The first one you cast will probably have a decent delve discount, but as the game goes on, there will either be fewer cards in your graveyard or fewer delveable targets, which doesn't excite me.
I think the biggest issue for me though is that refilling my hand is not something I'm usually interested in doing in DredgeVine. I want cards in the graveyard, not my hand. Sure, I need something in my hand to deal with obstacles (removal) or to trigger Vengevines (creatures) but, particularly with the latter, I'm hoping that my hand is appropriately shaped to start the game or soon after and not because I drew two Gravecrawlers and a Lightning Bolt off a pseudo-Ancestral. Given the choice, I'd rather dredge and play out of my yard than my hand.
Maybe pizzap has a different opinion. It's worth testing just to make sure i'm not completely off base, but on the surface I'm not preordering a playset for day 1 inclusion.
Round 1 - Mono White Humans
Game one my opponent starts off with Champion of the Parish into Soldier of the Pantheon/Champion of the Parish on turn two which is enough to get there. Too fast for me to set up and get going. Game two he stalls out on land while I get turn three 3x Vengevines going. That was enough. Game three was more back and forth, but here's where my opponent made the mistake I mentioned earlier. He had me dead on board with a 2/2 Champion and a 2/1 Soldier and me sitting at 4 life. The only removal I had was an Abrupt Decay that couldn't target the Soldier and would only buy me a turn against the Champion anyway. So I decided to cast two Gravecrawlers (i.e. can't-blockers) and see what happened (also, no Vengevines in the yard sadly). He looks at the Crawlers, even turns the cards around to read them, and then decides to pass the turn. Um, ok? So I draw nothing relevant, and swing with the Crawlers, and he blocks one of them taking 2 from the other. The one Crawler kills one of his guys, hits the graveyard and I simply recast it. I pass the turn, he draws, thinks, and passes back. Rinse and repeat. I swing with both again and this time he blocks again, and...crisis averted. There was no way I should have won, but I'll take it. Gotta read the cards.
1-0
Round 2 - Mono Green Stompy
This matchup was against one of the newer players to modern in our store. Both games were over in relatively short order. The first game I returned 4 Vengevines to play at once and overwhelmed him. The second game I Rites'd back an Elesh Norn to wipe his board and lock it up.
2-0
Round 3 - Modified Modern Event Deck (B/W Tokens)
His manabase didn't help him as he was running Caves of Koilos, City of Brass and Windbrisk Heights (i.e. damage and enters tapped). All he did both games was cast Lingering Souls and/or Spectral Processions. That's neat, but I had Stinkweed Imps and Skaab Ruinators to trump them (not to mention Vengevines).
3-0
Round 4 - Bant
This guy usually plays G/W Hatebears, but decided to switch it up into a Bant deck. It's not a bad deck, but my threats were more significant than his both games. That being said, playing against him was the toughest of the night and caused me to really slow down, sequence things correctly and make sure everything was in order. Both games were defined by me eventually Rites'ing back an Elesh Norn into play with him not being able to find his Supreme Verdict in time to restabilize.
4-0
Not the most flawless games of Magic I've ever played, but wins are wins and there were no times in any of the matchups where I felt overmatched or outclassed. I will say that I've been playing DredgeVine now for 3 months solidly (not to mention online frequently) and the familiarity with the deck has been a HUGE advantage for me. This really is a deck you need to jam frequently to understand all the outs, tricks and plays available because it doesn't really play the same way each time you play it against a variety of opponents.
Here's the decklist I ran last night:
1x Blood Crypt
1x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Sacred Foundry
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
4x Birds of Paradise
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Gravecrawler
4x Hedron Crab
1x Malfegor
2x Skaab Ruinator
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Vengevine
4x Vexing Devil
Instant (6)
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Lightning Bolt
Sorcery (6)
4x Faithless Looting
2x Unburial Rites
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Back to Nature
1x Batterskull
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Godo, Bandit Warlord
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Spellskite
2x Thoughtseize
I've tried both and between the two I'd lean towards Bloodghast over Avatar of Woe, but that's if I had to choose. I don't really like either, but Bloodghast gets the nod for a few reasons. 1. If you're using a fetch manabase, he comes back early and often. 2. The few times I've actually had an Avatar in play, it seems to be answered quite easily. Rarely do I get the Avatar active and wreaking havoc, not to mention that I usually have a hard time just getting it on the battlefield in the first place (and I am fully capable of admitting that that is probably due to just dumb luck and random situations in games I've played).
The problem I have with Bloodghast though is that it can't block, which can be extremely relevant in the later game. Coupled with Gravecrawler you can have up to 7-8 creatures in your deck that only work one way. Risk/Reward for sure and I think both are definitely additions DredgeVine has to consider, but when a third of your creature base can't stop an opponent's creatures, that can suck. Another problem is that while it's fine and dandy to have a Ghast keep coming back, it does nothing to trigger Vengevine, nor is it a zombie to turn on Gravecrawler, etc. It usually feels like an almost-appropriate addition to the deck, but not the cog you need.
So what is the answer? I'm not sure. I've been dinking around with Vexing Devil in the Bloodghast spot lately which I've been reasonably happy with. The same types of arguments can be made about the devil (and have, so I won't rehash them here), but if it sticks, it can block (relevant) and casting it does trigger the Vengevine (relevant) which is enough for me for right now to give it the nod over Bloodghast in my deck.
All that to say that I'm the weird guy running DredgeVine with Unburial Rites, so take this for what it's worth.
I run the crab and I wouldn't ever consider swapping out for this. Particularly with fetch lands, the crab is milling often 6 cards a turn, and it gets insane if you have multiple crabs out. Second, the crab costs 1 blue once, while the cost to mill six from the twist is 3. Third, the crab is a creature which by nature turns on Vengevine, which twist doesn't. Finally, the crab is a body that in a pinch can block buying you time if needed. For all those reasons I wouldn't swap out the crab for the twist, nor would I add the twist in place of something else either.
Another important (and probably obvious) thing - the tokens aren't cast, so they do nothing to 'activate' the Vengevines, which to me make PR more of a non-synergistic piece in the deck than I'd prefer.
Saying all of this, I haven't tested with it at all. PR is a powerhouse in the right build. I just don't know if this one takes full advantage of him.
Round 1 - Junk Gifts
Game one he Raven's Crime'd me twice (thanks!) which got the ball rolling pretty early and he scooped once I had a few Vengevines on the table. Game two I got off to a slow start and he stuck an Elesh Norn that locked things up for him. Game three I fought through a Damnation and returned a Vengevine and hasty Bloodghast to seal the deal.
2-1 (1-0)
Round 2 - Affinity
Game one he landed two Vault Skirges and two Cranial Platings, but Gnaw to the Bone coupled with constantly dredged Stinkweed Imps eventually cleared the board for my Vengevines and Co. to take the game. Game two I should have mulliganed harder for my sideboard hate, but didn't and a turn three Etched Champion followed by a turn four Cranial Plating was enough to move to game three. Game three went to time and he got it in turns with the same game plan as game two. I may have had a chance to do something by Rites-ing back an Elesh, but he had previously exiled my white mana source and I had the wrong color fetch in my hand.
1-2 (1-1)
Round 3 - GW Auras
Game one he got out a Bogle and suited it up, but miscalculated on the combat math and left himself open for lethal on the swingback. Game 2 he landed an early Scavenging Ooze and I didn't draw any removal and that was enough. Game three I Rites'd an Iona into play naming white which effectively shut him down.
2-1 (2-1)
I'm relatively set on the mainboard, however I'm going to be making one small change: -1x Gnaw to the Bone, +1x Mystic Retrieval. I need something to get back the Decays and Bolts that I inevitably end up dredging or milling away and this is the best option I think I have. The sideboard as always is being tweaked and I plan on taking the following list to FNM later this week:
1x Blood Crypt
1x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Bloodghast
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Gravecrawler
4x Hedron Crab
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Skaab Ruinator
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Vengevine
Instant (5)
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Lightning Bolt
Sorcery (7)
4x Faithless Looting
1x Mystic Retrieval
2x Unburial Rites
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Angel of Despair
2x Creeping Corrosion
1x Gnaw to the Bone
1x Mystic Retrieval
2x Rakdos Charm
2x Ray of Revelation
2x Spellskite
As much as Stony Silence hoses Affinity, with the Mystic Retrieval, I'm going to try relying on the Creeping Corrosion and Rakdos Charms to get there. We'll see if that works. Plus, I don't have to rely on an early white source to get the Silence on board.
Here's what I played last night:
1x Blood Crypt
1x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
3x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Bloodghast
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Gravecrawler
4x Hedron Crab
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Skaab Ruinator
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Vengevine
Instant (6)
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Gnaw to the Bone
2x Lightning Bolt
Sorcery (6)
4x Faithless Looting
2x Unburial Rites
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Angel of Despair
2x Darkblast
1x Empyrial Archangel
2x Gifts Ungiven
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Spellskite
2x Stony Silence
@creamy - I did what you suggested and mainboarded more removal and it definitely helped (and I didn't miss the Darkblasts at all).
Round 1 - Mono-Green Ramp
This was the first time I played against this fellow so I didn't really know what to expect. In Game 1 his mana dorks and enchantments ended up accelerating out a Primeval Titan and Pathrazer of Ulamog. I was one turn behind being able to stabilize and got some Kessig Wolf Run action in my face. Games 2 and 3 though I was able to overwhelm him with Gravecrawlers and Vengevines before he had a chance to set up.
2-1 (1-0)
Round 2 - GW Hexproof
Game 1 he rode a Dryad Arbor and a few Daybreak Coronets to the win before I found any relevant removal. Game 2 he boarded in his Scavenging Oozes and Rest in Peaces to fight my graveyard tricks, so I decided to 'play fair' and just cast a turn one Birds of Paradise which accelerated me into back to back Vengevines on turn three and four. Game 3 we both flooded out hard and he ended up finding a creature before I found anything to dredge or cast. Literally ANYTHING I could have found would have helped, but alas, them's the breaks sometimes.
1-2 (1-1)
Round 3 - Pod (Melira? - In either game I never saw a Melira or Viscera Seer, so I'm assuming, but it could have just been Junk Pod)
Game 1 was probably the craziest game with this deck I've played to date. He understandably doesn't have much graveyard interaction in game 1 so I pretty much have free reign to get things rolling and get my board set up, which I do. Long story short, I get him down to around 5 or so life before he plops down a Kitchen Finks and an Archangel of Thune. Awesome. I kept crashing in with creatures (I had the numbers) but I couldn't ever get over the hump and eventually the Archangel, Finks, and a few-turns-later Scavenging Ooze sealed the deal for him. All in all that first game took 35 minutes. So we shuffled up for the second game and got rolling with around 13 minutes left in the match. Game 2 he ended up getting out a Linvala, Keeper of Silence and a Restoration Angel before I could stabilize and that was that.
0-2 (1-2)
Round 4 - UWR Control
Much like Pod, my opponent had zero ways to profitably interact with my dredging in Game 1. This allowed me to build a board of 3 Hedron Crabs, 3 Vengevines, 1 Bloodghast and 2 Gravecrawlers. Still, he cast 3 Cryptic Commands (tapping my creatures) and flashed back 2 of them with Snapcaster Mage which stretched the game out a bit. But once he was out of Cryptic tricks, I overwhelmed him and swung for the win. Game 2 I switched to a more Gifts-Unburial package and went lighter on the dredging. On turn four I was able to Rites an Iona, Shield of Emeria into play (naming blue) and then follow that up the next turn by Rites-ing an Empyrial Archangel into play. That was enough.
2-0 (2-2)
Takeaways - (1) I wasn't expecting to see Pod and so my sideboard was not too helpful for that (Torpor Orb would have been nice). Also, I have to figure out a way to get rid of an Archangel of Thune. Abrupt Decay doesn't work and Lightning Bolt is too small. Perhaps I toss a Lightning Axe into the mix. (2) My UWR Control opponent misplayed in Game 2 when I Rites'd in the Iona. He had a Path to Exile in his graveyard and a Snapcaster Mage in his hand (with mana to cast) that he could have played targeting the Path to force me to name white instead of blue. He missed it, but I had no clue either because I wasn't paying too much attention to his graveyard. I need to be more aware of those things. (3) As lame as it sounds, GW Hexproof is relevant enough in my meta that I might just have to put a Back to Nature or two in my sideboard for that matchup (maybe in place of the Darkblast?). Otherwise I'm stuck one for one trading my removal with their enchantments and their curve is lower.
Overall though, I was really happy with the deck and the choices. I'm a fan of the Rites package because it allows another line of play mid-to-late game and I think it takes focus off of some of the 'smaller' things in the deck. Hedron Crabs have been all-stars for me allowing me to really dump a LOT of stuff in my graveyard. But those 0/2 walls look pretty innocuous when my opponent can see an Elesh Norn sitting in the graveyard.
I couldn't agree more with the Darkblast sentiments, and this was after playing it in just two matchups. On paper it seems great, but I found myself rarely using it and wishing it was something else in pretty much every game. Same for the Life from the Loam. While great in theory, I cast it once and it was there more for the Dredge aspect than it was for anything else. I didn't post the sideboard, but I had the full set of Abrupt Decay in there and would rather just have them main to start. I'll try either the Lightning Bolt or the Lightning Axe main and see how that works. You're right that I'm a little removal light at the moment. I'll tweak things around and let you know what sticks. Thanks!
1x Blood Crypt
1x Breeding Pool
1x Forest
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
1x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Bloodghast
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Gravecrawler
4x Hedron Crab
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
2x Skaab Ruinator
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Vengevine
4x Faithless Looting
2x Life from the Loam
2x Unburial Rites
Instant (3)
2x Darkblast
1x Gnaw to the Bone
In playing it tonight I only faced Bogles and Affinity, but in my meta we also have RUG Control, Soul Sisters, UR Delver, Melira Pod and Mono-Green Devotion, so I'm hoping to get some more testing in against the other matchups. I'll keep you posted.
Did Montell Williams win an invitational recently?