I think the problem with what you are proposing conceptually is that:
a) if you want to minimize the number of goblins in your deck, both Goblin Lackey and Piledriver would be under powered
b) if the power level of your Goblins are small, then Goblin Lackey is not scary as a threat
Given enough Goblins in your deck, Goblin Pilerdriver may have enough support. Goblin Pilerdriver, by the way, only really shines with either Goblin Warchief or Chieftain on the field, because you can catch your opponent off guard and go in for an alpha strike. As an attacker, it's actually quite poor due to the 2 toughness, as it is easily killed. In fact, against decks like DnT and Maverick, and even RUG, most players sideboard a number of Goblin Piledrivers out. If on draw against DnT or Maverick, it is even correct to take some numbers of Goblin Lackey out too (this actually goes against your point that Goblins being Lackey focused).
If you were to play Goblin Lackey, I think at minimum you should include some game-winning bombs, such as Siege-Gang Commander. Otherwise, the power level of Goblin Lackey is misused. You may even want to play Warren Instigator too.
Lastly, if you were to play Goblins as an aggro deck, Goblin Rabblemaster and Goblin Chieftains may be good additions if you ever consider upping your CMC limit.
Staschy55, I honestly don't have an issue with your trying to create something new. I do think you should post your deck at deck creations though. The thing is, the Goblins deck in this thread is very much a control deck, which is very unlike the Goblins deck your are proposing, or the deck that was once the best deck in the format. The very fact that this thread is under the Aggro section is actually a disservice for this deck, as new player may get the wrong impression of what this deck is all about. Goblin Lackey is a very strong card. But it was never its center focus ever. It was never even its center focus back in 2011 when Zoo was a DTB. The main point of this deck is to use cards like Mogg War Marshal and Rishadan Port to stall and grind the opponent out, so we can eventually beat our opponent through shear card advantage via Goblin Ringleader and Gempalm Incinerator. Traditionally, Goblins do very well in the long games. Now with one sides sweepers such as Zealous Persecution and Toxic Deluge thanks to the meta solution to TNN, even this not necessarily true any more. However, Goblin Lackey does play very significant roles. It plays as a stall. No player in the right mind would ever let Goblin Lacky connect because the outcome could be back breaking, which puts their creatures on the defensive. Against unfair decks, with the support from Wastelands and Rishadan Ports, we can close games out fairly quickly against unfair decks while preventing them from casting spells. And sometimes, we just get lucky and Goblin Lackey is unopposed vs fair decks, which gives us a very good upper hand, and usually means game. These are the reasons why we play Goblin Lackey. If the center focus was ever actually about connecting Goblin Lackey, we would be playing 8+ creature removal spells, not just 4 Gempalm Incinerators which is really only shine mid-game. The only reason why Tarfire is used now is because Tarmogoyf is no longer the boogieman is once was, and that Deathrite Shaman, Stoneforge Mystic, and Delver of Secrets are very powerful cards that we must answer early.
Thanks for such a thorough reply! I am mainly playing for fun, not trying to be competitive, so the deck not being tier 1 is perfectly fine for me. I am mainly interested in your list because it seems you tuned it for both duel and multiplayer, and that it never occurred to me that Norin may work in duels, even just for casual fun. My one friend already built a Kaalia deck. My other friends are building Skittles, Thraximundar, Marath, Will of the Wild, and Doran. No sideboards.
One thing, I noticed you have Word of Seizing but no Zealous Conscript? Isn't Zealous Conscript better because it can combo off of Kiki-Jiki, or do you guys not play with combos?
Hi dnLL, I like your take of Norin. I do have two questions though. Do you use this list in duels? If so, how well does it perform? I am mainly asking (seeing that you follow the French ban list) because some of my friends are getting into duel commander, and I was seeing if I can make my list work decently well in both duel and multiplayer, and not have to work on a completely new deck.
Don't worry about mixing foils. It doesn't matter. Most people I know prefer the Legends Karakas unless they plan to go all foil, so you may have a hard time trading. Legends Karakas are worth more too.
I don't like Manriki-Gusari because if your opponent has an active Jitte, Manriki-Gusari will not be equipped. To make it useful, you pretty much have fetch before your opponent gets their Jitte, which is not really a solution. I don't like O-Ring because it is a 3/4-mana solution. Disenchant may be descent because it gets rid of the problem for 2/3 mana, whereas Leonin Relic-Warder only stalls the problem until the opponent finds a removal. A Pithing Needle and 4 Revokers may also be enough to pin down an active Jitte.
For me, when I pick my basic lands, I usually look more symbolism. What card makes this deck unique compared to other decks. For Death and Taxes, the two cards are Flickerwisp and Mangara of Corondor. You really do not see them outside of Death and Taxes. That gives you eight unique plains from Shadowmoor and Time Spiral.
If you need more unique plains, you can always pick some out from Mirrodin because Aether Vial is probably the third most unique card in this deck. Maybe even Scars of Mirrodin because of Phyrexian Revoker.
I had been talking to my friends about the proper land count. Personally, I like my 23 land count with 4 Ports and 4 Wastelands; however, many of them only plays 22 lands by cutting a Mountain. If this were the case, assuming you play a full set of CoS, it means that you have 14 red source for goblins, and only 10 red source for spells. For goblins, we have a 86.1% to drop a red source on first turn, and a 60.5% on the second turn. However, if we had 15 red sources, we have a 88.2% to drop a red source on first turn, and a 65% on the second turn. It also brings our chances of getting pure red source on turn 1 from 74.1% to 77.8, which is important for Gempalm Incinerator. So in my opinion, if you were to cut one land out, it should not be a Mountain, but a Rishadan Port, because Goblins is a very mana hungry deck, and we can't be too greedy with our red mana. If you have Thalia in your main deck, it means that one of the Cavern of Souls may be named human, so you may also want to take another Rishadan Port out for a Mountain, though not necessary.
GundamGuy, I know you don't like goblins being under the aggro category, which is understandable, but what makes you think it is more fitting under the control category? With your metric of an aggro deck, the only decks that should be considered aggro are burn and tempo decks. If that were the case, then about a good quarter of the decks in the aggro category should also be in the control category (Maverick, Midrange Bant, The Rock, Nic Fit, etc.). Is that a fair assessment? Would it be better if there were a 4th category as "aggro-control" or "mid-range"?
magicmerl, I don't really know how you can say that Goblins and DnT are essentially the same deck, unless you said it out of whim. I mean, yes, both are mono-colored decks that runs Waste/Port/Vial with utility creatures. The deck philosophy though is completely different. Goblins tries to win through card advantage and board presence, while disrupting the board. That is not how Death and Taxes win. Death and Taxes on the other hand actively tries the shut the opponent strategy down with hatebears. In fact, the creature base of Death and Taxes is pretty much comprised of nothing but hatebears and utility. I have been piloting both Death and Taxes and Vial Goblins since 2007, and I honestly disagree with your statement. I do agree that Death and Taxes was very much an mid-range aggro deck before the release Phyrexian Revoker, and the release of Thalia last year brings it over the top.
Piledriver is also good because it acts as a pseudo-removal card. Sometimes, we can't use Gempalm Incinerator or Pyrokinesis to kill a Tarmogoyf because it is too big, however, we can use Gempalm Incinerator or Pyrokinesis to kill all the other creatures and force our opponent to trade with Piledriver. Piledriver just so happens have the ability to kill the opponent outright if unchecked or if your opponent leaves an opening. I think that's a healthy look of Piledriver.
I think it really depends on how you define aggro and control. If you define an aggro as a deck that goes for a straight up beatdown until you runs out of gas, like Zoo, then no, Goblins is not is not pure aggro deck. Goblins do have control elements through mana-denial and a toolbox that solves problems thanks to Matron, but that is not indicative of a control deck. Just because goblins try to establish a superior board position by overwhelming the opponent does not make it a control deck. A pure control deck on the other hand is defensive and reactive by nature. The goal of a pure control deck is to lock your opponent to the point they can't recover, and finish them off with a win condition. This is definitely not what Goblin does, though it may seem because we usually have a greater board presence. If I were to place Goblins between the two extreme spectrum, I'd definitely place it as aggro. To be more specific, it is a mid-range aggro-control deck, like Maverick. Death and Taxes on the other is a deck that started as an aggro deck, but eventually turned into a control deck, and is rightfully reclassified. I don't think Goblins is there yet.
Main
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Ballyrush Banneret
4 Captain of the Watch
4 Daru Warchief
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Field Marshal
4 Preeminent Captain
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Suppression Field
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
2 Karakas
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
9 Plains
Sideboard
4 Rest in Peace
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Null Rod
This deck is a house at a unknown meta. I have won twice at my local tourney before because people do not expect it. Suppression Field is a very relevant and underplayed card.
a) if you want to minimize the number of goblins in your deck, both Goblin Lackey and Piledriver would be under powered
b) if the power level of your Goblins are small, then Goblin Lackey is not scary as a threat
Given enough Goblins in your deck, Goblin Pilerdriver may have enough support. Goblin Pilerdriver, by the way, only really shines with either Goblin Warchief or Chieftain on the field, because you can catch your opponent off guard and go in for an alpha strike. As an attacker, it's actually quite poor due to the 2 toughness, as it is easily killed. In fact, against decks like DnT and Maverick, and even RUG, most players sideboard a number of Goblin Piledrivers out. If on draw against DnT or Maverick, it is even correct to take some numbers of Goblin Lackey out too (this actually goes against your point that Goblins being Lackey focused).
If you were to play Goblin Lackey, I think at minimum you should include some game-winning bombs, such as Siege-Gang Commander. Otherwise, the power level of Goblin Lackey is misused. You may even want to play Warren Instigator too.
Lastly, if you were to play Goblins as an aggro deck, Goblin Rabblemaster and Goblin Chieftains may be good additions if you ever consider upping your CMC limit.
One thing, I noticed you have Word of Seizing but no Zealous Conscript? Isn't Zealous Conscript better because it can combo off of Kiki-Jiki, or do you guys not play with combos?
Also, here is my Norin art:
Thanks!
sudo apt-get install libprotobuf-dev qtmobility-dev
If you need more unique plains, you can always pick some out from Mirrodin because Aether Vial is probably the third most unique card in this deck. Maybe even Scars of Mirrodin because of Phyrexian Revoker.
GundamGuy, I know you don't like goblins being under the aggro category, which is understandable, but what makes you think it is more fitting under the control category? With your metric of an aggro deck, the only decks that should be considered aggro are burn and tempo decks. If that were the case, then about a good quarter of the decks in the aggro category should also be in the control category (Maverick, Midrange Bant, The Rock, Nic Fit, etc.). Is that a fair assessment? Would it be better if there were a 4th category as "aggro-control" or "mid-range"?
magicmerl, I don't really know how you can say that Goblins and DnT are essentially the same deck, unless you said it out of whim. I mean, yes, both are mono-colored decks that runs Waste/Port/Vial with utility creatures. The deck philosophy though is completely different. Goblins tries to win through card advantage and board presence, while disrupting the board. That is not how Death and Taxes win. Death and Taxes on the other hand actively tries the shut the opponent strategy down with hatebears. In fact, the creature base of Death and Taxes is pretty much comprised of nothing but hatebears and utility. I have been piloting both Death and Taxes and Vial Goblins since 2007, and I honestly disagree with your statement. I do agree that Death and Taxes was very much an mid-range aggro deck before the release Phyrexian Revoker, and the release of Thalia last year brings it over the top.
With that said, Leonin Relic-Warder is good. It is no Qasali Pridemage though.
http://www.factoriademishra.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7402&start=120
Main
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Ballyrush Banneret
4 Captain of the Watch
4 Daru Warchief
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Field Marshal
4 Preeminent Captain
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Suppression Field
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
2 Karakas
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
9 Plains
Sideboard
4 Rest in Peace
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Null Rod
This deck is a house at a unknown meta. I have won twice at my local tourney before because people do not expect it. Suppression Field is a very relevant and underplayed card.