Nactal prevents any other agro strat other than WRG, They have the data to show this and so it's banned.
Meek simply draws out games and is a prison-like deck, which WotC deams "unfun".
That was when Punishing Fire was legal. It is an entirely different meta now. The Nacatl banning also provided exactly zero new aggro decks. Better to have Zoo and affinity as playable aggro decks rather than just affinity.
Martyr of Sands does the same thing but it is not banned. Sword was just one of the pre-emptive bans that is on there because WOTC didn't want Modern to start out with many of the same decks people were tired of from extended. It's been long enough that it should be given a chance in modern. I doubt it would even see much play since it doesn't really slot into any pre-existing decks. It would probably even make Tezzerator a viable deck.
AV and GGT can come off without a problem. Bitterblossom is edge case but it might come off. Meek and Nactal will NEVER come off.
Explain how Meek and Nacatl are never coming off. With power creep the way it's going Nacatl isn't nearly as good of a creature as he used to be ans will probably be outclassed soon. Sword is an easily disrupted slow combo. When you can easily win on the spot with other 2 card combos like Splinter Twin, how is Sword bannable?
Are we really considering a Snapcaster ban? The LAST card that is pretty much allowing blue to be a color in Modern? I mean, I get Wizards is scared of control currently, but they wouldn't be that dumb. Nobody is that dumb. They've already made control impossible to play in the format. Unless they are trying to balance the colors across all formats (since blue sees so much Legacy play, it needs to be balanced by having almost no modern play), then I don't see it happening.
I don't think people are actually saying it needs to be banned, just saying if they were to ban some thing this time around, it would be one of the most likely along with DRS and Pod. I predict no bans this time but not sure whether they will try an unban or not. I was actually hoping the meta would be more stagnant lately in hopes of an unban or two but we just saw two decks win GP's that hadn't before. Still hoping for any one or two of the following to be unbanned but I won't hold my breath;
-Sword of The Meek
-Wild Nacatl
-Ancestral Visions
-Bitterblossom
-GGT
Every card should have answers. I don't see what is so bad about having Abrupt Decay make it so players can't just lean on a single card and counter spells.
I agree. It's important to have answers in the format. Just because a card makes others less viable doesn't mean it should be banned. Blue control needs to adapt and play more cards that are immune to Abrupt decay like Geist or cards that don't care about it like Snapcaster Mage. An AV unban would help a lot too.
So what? I would much rather use a card to save me later on.
What one envisions as a fix, is not a fix at all for others. Just because you see those few things fixing the format for you, doesnt mean it actually fixes the format to the whole player base. Then again, no matter what happens, there is going to be a certain group unhappy how Wotc handles it.
I think the issue with Mental Misstep is that it's a high risk, low potential reward unban. There just doesn't seem to be much gained from it. I mean, did anyone ever really think "man, I'd love to check out Modern, but they banned one of my favorite cards, Mental Misstep"? An unban of something like Stoneforge Mystic might be very risky, but it could bring some new players to the format who want to play with the card but can't, create some new strategies, and benefit some decks.
Even assuming Mental Misstep is safe, I don't see it doing much positive for the format. And if it isn't safe, then it warps the format and gets banned again, which is bad.
The ideal thing would've been to not ban it right away and see how the format handled it, but we're past that point. I don't think Mental Misstep should be unbanned because I don't see any real gain from its unbanning, but I can see a lot of negatives arising.
The positives that I see to unbanning Mental Mistep is to slow down the format a bit and to decrease the amount of play certain cards see. For example, Bolt and DRS are the two most commonly played non-lands in the format and could use an answer to both of them. It's also a good answer to many cards on the ban list like Rite of Flame, Wild Nacatl, Ponder, and Preordain. The problem is the potential warping that MM could cause. The question is, Is it worth it to try an unbanning? I'm leaning towards maybe not, but I think my morbid curiosity really wants to see what MM would do to the format. I just wish it was given a chance in modern before being banned. Now, with a mostly stable metagame, it seems like a bad idea to try it out in modern at this point.
I find it funny that every one seems to think every single deck would play 4 MM. If that happened, then burn would just be the best deck because every one would be killing themselves. MM was warping in legacy because it had the benefit of being paired with Brainstorm and FoW. MM isn't as good in modern because the format is focused as much around 1 drops and you can't just pitch MM to FoW if you're opponent isn't playing a lot of 1-drops.
"Chance of Unbanning Grave-Troll resulting in something dangerous" is greater than "Chance of Unbanning Grave-Troll resulting in something that people actually play, but is not dangerous"
Then they will not unban it.
Its really weird, as both those seem like they are exceedingly small percentages.
If it does nothing, as most of us believe, the only gain WotC gets is that their banned list is one card smaller. Is dropping a list of 31 to 30 really going to be of any real gain? Probably not. It may even just draw more attention to the 30 that remain on the banned list and be a net negative for WotC.
If it does nothing positive for them, why would they bother?
Maybe we'll get him as a tack-on at some point when they feel they can unban something else.
But I don't think WotC is at the point where they want to unban something. The next two years of sets likely have a number of safety-valve cards for modern. Once those start rolling in, they may be more receptive to unbannings.
As much as forums may bemoan the state of modern, it is on a slow upward trajectory that very likely suits WotC's goals well enough. They could make moves to try to accelerate the growth, but any time they do that they are taking the chance (even if its low) to send the format spiraling downward. They have a proven effective tool for accelerating growth with Modern Masters sets, so there is little incentive to use a tool that could be good or bad like unbannings (or more aggressive bannings).
Well, the chance of GGT doing any thing in modern is just slightly above 0% so yes, I'm willing to take the risk. If Wotc was this cautious with all cards, then modern would die as a format. If unbanning GGT causes even one person to pull out their dredge deck and take it to a tournament then I'd say it's worth it to unban. There is absolutely no reason that it needs to stay on the ban list and the thinking here by some people is just mind boggling. GGT is a joke of a card to be on the ban list.
do you see oblivion ring played in high numbers? how about detention sphere? or vedalken shackles? or isochon scepter? these things (minus detention sphere) were lynchpins of decks prior to the release of RTR. so something happened that coincided with RTR that caused these cards to see a drastic drop in play. what do all these cards have in common? they're played in control/tempo shells. also, they're all 3cmc or less! hmmmmm.
also, twin is a deck build around protecting said combo. all in twin runs skites mainboard which get around the uncounterable clause. it main decks dispel and swan song to deal with other removal. post board, mizzium skin is sometimes boarded in solely to deal with abrupt decay. tempo twin works slightly differently. it sticks its 3cmc combo piece and whittles away at your life. they could kill it with decay, but now they're out a copy of the card and you probably have more combo pieces due to your filters. and if they ever tap that GB mana, you win.
i've considered swerve/redirect many a time in Uxx tempo builds and most of the time, its just a bad idea. you never have a full 4 in your board, so odds are you won't actually see it unlike your leaks/remands which are 3 or 4 ofs. decks built fairly to fight GB decks are either immune to abrupt decay (geist, resto angel, cards that get value when they ETB, clique, snapcaster) or ignore it (swarm strategies).
Yeah, it's called metagaming and it's a fundamental part of magic. Not every strategy and every card is going to be viable at all times. If it was I would be playing some thing like MBC or Goblins. At some point, GBx probably won't be a viable deck, then people can start playing their Shackles and Sceptors, then the whole process starts over again. This is the sort of checks and balances that are supposed to keep a format from getting out of hand, like Legacy does. This is the ultimate goal of large formats and to keep a ban list as small as possible so people can play what they want.
When people start talking about banning 1-for-1 removal is when we know some thing is wrong. Instead of banning, AD, why can't we just unban AV? Then the GB deck can 1-for-1 the blue deck all day long and they'll just draw more cards to fight through it.
Sure they do. They have access to every sanctioned Modern event. They have representatives at all large events watching games (and talking to the players). They have all the MTGO data. They have tons of data.
Yes, but that doesn't mean they have sufficient data to say that certain cards should stay banned. I doubt that they have really had any real testing potential unbans.
It seems that the only bans they have made that have had extensive testing are BBE, Seething Song, and Second Sunrise. All others have been based on past formats (like BB, SotM, Valakut) or have been knee-jerk reactions (Like P&P, Wild Nacatl, GSZ).
I will tack on to this that Hypergensis was a tier 1 deck back in extended so his argument there doesn't make sense either, the deck is way too powerful in a format with no FoW/Daze/etc.
Right. It was just tier 1. That was my point. It didn't need to be banned and I don't think it would need to be banned in modern if every thing except for Skullclamp was legal.
Yea cause Progenitus, Bogardan Hellkite, Angel of Despair, and Terastodon are totally as good as Emrakul and Grislebrand :rolleyes:. Hypergenesis was actually somewhat raceable if it resolved, in fact Kiblar did it in the quarterfinals of PT Austin. Grislebrand and Emrakul are much less raceable.
It's still not not a very consistent deck though. You can't play cantrips and any card draw has to be 3 mana or more.
Testing was showing that Hypergenesis was too good as well.
The banned list at minimum would be 10 cards at least.
Control destroys Hygenesis. Every time some one mentions it as a deck that needs to be banned I wonder if people remember how Hypergenesis was just another good deck in extended. The deck had no game against Faeries or DD/Thopter and could often be outraced by aggro
Just an idea
lets say during the next revision wizards unbans everything in modern and then waits 2-3 months before deciding to reban things that become too dominant. Sort of a palate cleanser/what is actually good for the format rumpus party.
With everything on the table what truly becomes broken and what do you think would be rebanned?
A minimal ban list would probably be just Skullclamp. I don't think there would be a deck that would be far and away better than every thing else. The power level though would be extremely high and you could probably only play 4-5 different decks and have a chance at winning a tournament. It would also be a huge combo fest.
That was when Punishing Fire was legal. It is an entirely different meta now. The Nacatl banning also provided exactly zero new aggro decks. Better to have Zoo and affinity as playable aggro decks rather than just affinity.
Martyr of Sands does the same thing but it is not banned. Sword was just one of the pre-emptive bans that is on there because WOTC didn't want Modern to start out with many of the same decks people were tired of from extended. It's been long enough that it should be given a chance in modern. I doubt it would even see much play since it doesn't really slot into any pre-existing decks. It would probably even make Tezzerator a viable deck.
Explain how Meek and Nacatl are never coming off. With power creep the way it's going Nacatl isn't nearly as good of a creature as he used to be ans will probably be outclassed soon. Sword is an easily disrupted slow combo. When you can easily win on the spot with other 2 card combos like Splinter Twin, how is Sword bannable?
I don't think people are actually saying it needs to be banned, just saying if they were to ban some thing this time around, it would be one of the most likely along with DRS and Pod. I predict no bans this time but not sure whether they will try an unban or not. I was actually hoping the meta would be more stagnant lately in hopes of an unban or two but we just saw two decks win GP's that hadn't before. Still hoping for any one or two of the following to be unbanned but I won't hold my breath;
-Sword of The Meek
-Wild Nacatl
-Ancestral Visions
-Bitterblossom
-GGT
I agree. It's important to have answers in the format. Just because a card makes others less viable doesn't mean it should be banned. Blue control needs to adapt and play more cards that are immune to Abrupt decay like Geist or cards that don't care about it like Snapcaster Mage. An AV unban would help a lot too.
So a healing salve for 1 dmg is good now?
The positives that I see to unbanning Mental Mistep is to slow down the format a bit and to decrease the amount of play certain cards see. For example, Bolt and DRS are the two most commonly played non-lands in the format and could use an answer to both of them. It's also a good answer to many cards on the ban list like Rite of Flame, Wild Nacatl, Ponder, and Preordain. The problem is the potential warping that MM could cause. The question is, Is it worth it to try an unbanning? I'm leaning towards maybe not, but I think my morbid curiosity really wants to see what MM would do to the format. I just wish it was given a chance in modern before being banned. Now, with a mostly stable metagame, it seems like a bad idea to try it out in modern at this point.
my mistake, I didn't notice the conversation switched to Jitte
Well, the chance of GGT doing any thing in modern is just slightly above 0% so yes, I'm willing to take the risk. If Wotc was this cautious with all cards, then modern would die as a format. If unbanning GGT causes even one person to pull out their dredge deck and take it to a tournament then I'd say it's worth it to unban. There is absolutely no reason that it needs to stay on the ban list and the thinking here by some people is just mind boggling. GGT is a joke of a card to be on the ban list.
Yeah, it's called metagaming and it's a fundamental part of magic. Not every strategy and every card is going to be viable at all times. If it was I would be playing some thing like MBC or Goblins. At some point, GBx probably won't be a viable deck, then people can start playing their Shackles and Sceptors, then the whole process starts over again. This is the sort of checks and balances that are supposed to keep a format from getting out of hand, like Legacy does. This is the ultimate goal of large formats and to keep a ban list as small as possible so people can play what they want.
When people start talking about banning 1-for-1 removal is when we know some thing is wrong. Instead of banning, AD, why can't we just unban AV? Then the GB deck can 1-for-1 the blue deck all day long and they'll just draw more cards to fight through it.
Yes, but that doesn't mean they have sufficient data to say that certain cards should stay banned. I doubt that they have really had any real testing potential unbans.
It seems that the only bans they have made that have had extensive testing are BBE, Seething Song, and Second Sunrise. All others have been based on past formats (like BB, SotM, Valakut) or have been knee-jerk reactions (Like P&P, Wild Nacatl, GSZ).
Right. It was just tier 1. That was my point. It didn't need to be banned and I don't think it would need to be banned in modern if every thing except for Skullclamp was legal.
It's still not not a very consistent deck though. You can't play cantrips and any card draw has to be 3 mana or more.
Control destroys Hygenesis. Every time some one mentions it as a deck that needs to be banned I wonder if people remember how Hypergenesis was just another good deck in extended. The deck had no game against Faeries or DD/Thopter and could often be outraced by aggro
A minimal ban list would probably be just Skullclamp. I don't think there would be a deck that would be far and away better than every thing else. The power level though would be extremely high and you could probably only play 4-5 different decks and have a chance at winning a tournament. It would also be a huge combo fest.