Alright, this is all getting a little heated, so I'm going to lock it for now and let everyone cool down. I might keep it locked just because this is a hot button topic and the answers have pretty much already been provided, but we'll see...
Yes, yes, I remember she didn't stole it *from* Tarkir, but can't it be the same scroll? I don't know, it just seems like this is all connected. The scroll she stole is the one that teaches Ghostfire, which is a Ugin spell. Ugin looks to be connected to the Jeskai somehow, due to all the cards showing that, and the whole Ojutai thing about "forgetting that knowledge" suggests that. Am I really just tying stuff that can't be tied together?
Pretty much. It's important to remember that the Dragon Scroll wasn't just a "how to" manual for Ghostfire. It was also a map to Zendikar.
Aside from that, the Jeskai Scroll didn't exist until the khans were threatened by the dragonbroods taking over the clans.
And in fairness, Ugin seems pretty connected to the Temur as well as the Jeskai so...
I don't see anything about the Elder Dragon Wars remaining canon past the revisionist era over 15 years ago. Nicol Bolas' age, power, original duel, and losing to Umezawa are all I can find in canon for him as well, but nothing referencing the other ones, their importance, or even their names. Even the Dragons of Magic don't go into detail past the Primevals.
The Revisionist era is a bit of a problem in itself, because while they changed many of the preconceived notions established during that time, if they didn't directly address it, it was still considered canon. Out of the revision, it was mostly to set the stage for the Urza & Weatherlight saga by better defining the Brother's War and Phyrexia. Everything else is still canon despite coming from that era.
One could argue that they've changed Elder Dragon well well after the fact, except that still doesn't gel well because of the treatment they've given Bolas, which is built off of that history, though it doesn't reference his kin. Though he has mentioned they're all dead now and he killed some of them himself.
Not sure if anyone pointed this out already (probably yes), but Shu Yun's scroll is probably the Scroll of Ghostfire, the one Chandra steals from that monastery and that has Ugin's spell (Ghostfire) in it, right? The whole "Ojutai forces the Red out of Jeskai by making them forget/decline the bloodfire/ghostfire thing" points to that. Narset probably went after the scroll in the new timeline. This all is a giant red arrow pointing to Zendikar II, I think.
Shu Yun's scroll didn't exist until Sarkhan changed time.
I have been in the camp that Narset's spark ignited when Zurgo went to kill her. So being on a different plane would save her from the temporal changes of Tarkir. I'd imagine that Narset would come back to Tarkir eventually to find Taigam/Oujati leading "Jeskai", which would lead to major issues. And it make senses why she's called a "heretic" because she would be talking a time of Khans and when dragons are extinct. I dont think Mr. Oujati would appreciate that "blasphemy".
Being off world doesn't shield one from a change in one's personal history. Any other walker who had been to Tarkir will have their memories altered too.
How many times do I have to say it? Ugin is not confirmed as an Elder Dragon.
I said it was headcanon. In my mind there's no way in hell Ugin looks as much like Bolas as he does without some shared lineage.
The problem is, when you say that sort of thing in a public forum, you spread misinformation. I've had to debunk Ugin = Elder THREE TIMES in the past day. I don't want people propagating their headcanon. I understand where you're coming from, but there are people paying attention that will take the statement as the gospel truth.
@Elder; I don't mind the use of the term. A bit of headcanon here, but they are elders because they are the progeny of Ugin, who is an elder. Works for me. Your mileage may vary.
There, it says clearly, they hadn't talked about it and the elder in question was in regards to the age and not the race.
If you meant Ugin is an elder Dragon and that is why they are that way? Doesn't get around the problem that Elder has specific connotations and this has caused problems with two separate definitions being attributed to it.
For Akki_Akki, Its fine. This one time Akki_Akki will personally let the Rule of Cool go by scott-free. Normally outrage but as long as they didn't expand beyond the now seven alive from two Elder Dragons, Akki_Akki feels it is fine. If more did get printed Akki_Akki will expect those even newer Elder Dragons to be printed ten years minimum from now and even then that would be way too soon for Akki_Akki's liking.
It's also certainly not elegant that the two true living Elder Dragons in the storyline, Ugin and Nicol Bolas, aren't referred to as elder dragons in their planeswalker cards, but these five are. Can't help but think there could have been other flavorful type lines that were less problematic.
I thought Wizards were wiser but no, they just killed part of uniqueness of Nicol Bolas).
They didn't really kill it so much as confused the matter. It's not elegant and I'm certainly miffed with the decision, but I'm finding it hard to be really mad. I am deeply deeply annoyed though.
Considering that the Elder Dragon Wars lore is ancient and was practically a footnote even when it was created, I don't have a problem with this.
This is different from Phyrexians and slivers. Phyrexia had a massive impact on the story and game, the slivers weren't unimportant, and both of them keep showing up even in Modern-era sets. Comparatively, the average 1994 player looking through Legends packs would have no idea of the relevance of the Elder Dragon Wars, and would not attribute any meaning to the word "Elder" other than a cool-seeming signifier.
It honestly wouldn't be that bad if not for the fact that Nicol Bolas is still a thing and casts a very real shadow across the story.
I'm curious, what was the glimpse we got? I can't think of a card from the top of my head.
Well, in terms of cards we had Ramosian Revivalist, but I was actually talking about the fact that Bolas and Leshrac battled in the skies of Mercadia above the oceans.
As for the corruption, I was thinking of that because wasn't there a phyrexian hangar inside the mountain?
I'm honestly not sure if the Phyrexians built the hangar or if that was something the Mercadians already had, in which case they were just renting space to the Phyrexians. I'm inclined to say that was the case, but I don't have any actual proof.
it should actually be the dragons in FRF turned into the clan wedges that we have in Khans. They turn into elder dragons and become wedge dragons with more powerful abilities to make them mythic.
That isn't how elder dragons work.
I don't mean to snark, but...
At least they aren't wedge (since they were confirmed as ally-color)?
They are, however, redefining what elder bloody means, which is irksome because now I'm going to have to explain the damned difference between what Bolas is and what THESE are.
Also, would Mercadia still be on the table or has it been throuroughly corrupted by the Phyrexians in the meantime?
We saw a glimpse, albeit a very tiny one, of Mercadia in Future Sight. It looked fine.
The only real reason we have to think Mercadia was corrupted in any fashion was from Scourge and that has become increasingly dubious if not outright contradicted as time goes on.
Cities exist out of progress. They are W/U with a focus on U. As cities grow, people becomes less connected rather than more. So more Blue.
Cities can't really function without infrastructure and rarely without laws. They are products of societies seeking structure, so I would say they lean more white rather than more blue.
Of course Ravnica is a TERRIBLE example. Then again, all the souls are garbage flavorfully when you get right down to it. These are not worldsouls and trying to assign that is... misconceived at best.
Pretty much. It's important to remember that the Dragon Scroll wasn't just a "how to" manual for Ghostfire. It was also a map to Zendikar.
Aside from that, the Jeskai Scroll didn't exist until the khans were threatened by the dragonbroods taking over the clans.
And in fairness, Ugin seems pretty connected to the Temur as well as the Jeskai so...
The Revisionist era is a bit of a problem in itself, because while they changed many of the preconceived notions established during that time, if they didn't directly address it, it was still considered canon. Out of the revision, it was mostly to set the stage for the Urza & Weatherlight saga by better defining the Brother's War and Phyrexia. Everything else is still canon despite coming from that era.
One could argue that they've changed Elder Dragon well well after the fact, except that still doesn't gel well because of the treatment they've given Bolas, which is built off of that history, though it doesn't reference his kin. Though he has mentioned they're all dead now and he killed some of them himself.
Being off world doesn't shield one from a change in one's personal history. Any other walker who had been to Tarkir will have their memories altered too.
The problem is, when you say that sort of thing in a public forum, you spread misinformation. I've had to debunk Ugin = Elder THREE TIMES in the past day. I don't want people propagating their headcanon. I understand where you're coming from, but there are people paying attention that will take the statement as the gospel truth.
How many times do I have to say it?
Ugin is not confirmed as an Elder Dragon.
http://dougbeyermtg.tumblr.com/post/108287169989
There, it says clearly, they hadn't talked about it and the elder in question was in regards to the age and not the race.
If you meant Ugin is an elder Dragon and that is why they are that way? Doesn't get around the problem that Elder has specific connotations and this has caused problems with two separate definitions being attributed to it.
That being said, Tarkir's djinn and efreet are... weird. And we've NEVER gotten any actual explanation to them.
Only zombies who find somewhere safe to keep them.
I just said that a page ago...
Ugin is not actually confirmed as an Elder Dragon.
Doug talked about the fact that they hadn't really talked about it, and never came to a decision one way or another.
http://dougbeyermtg.tumblr.com/post/108287169989/i-noticed-that-in-the-planeswalkers-guide-to-fate
So, Ugin might be an elder Dragon, but it's not a given that he is an Elder Dragon.
It honestly wouldn't be that bad if not for the fact that Nicol Bolas is still a thing and casts a very real shadow across the story.
I'm honestly not sure if the Phyrexians built the hangar or if that was something the Mercadians already had, in which case they were just renting space to the Phyrexians. I'm inclined to say that was the case, but I don't have any actual proof.
http://dougbeyermtg.tumblr.com/post/112529400134
They are, however, redefining what elder bloody means, which is irksome because now I'm going to have to explain the damned difference between what Bolas is and what THESE are.
We saw a glimpse, albeit a very tiny one, of Mercadia in Future Sight. It looked fine.
The only real reason we have to think Mercadia was corrupted in any fashion was from Scourge and that has become increasingly dubious if not outright contradicted as time goes on.
Of course Ravnica is a TERRIBLE example. Then again, all the souls are garbage flavorfully when you get right down to it. These are not worldsouls and trying to assign that is... misconceived at best.