They might. That still wouldn't make Graft a good mechanic. Every creature with amplify might've been the coolest thing out there, but at the end of the day all it does is make a creature bigger. That's not that cool.
How do you know that, we only know of one graft card..
Unless you magically know all simic cards.
I know what GRAFT does. You do too. Note that I didn't say that all cards with Graft suck. I'm saying that the ability is fairly narrow, boring, and not that strong. Cytoplast Rootkin is a great card, but Graft isn't why he's a great card.
The ability to move counters from creatures with graft to a creature as you play that creature is just not that strong or that interesting of an ability. Lots of things interacting with counters ARE interesting or strong, and I suspect some of the graft creatures will have them. That doesn't make graft a good ability; it makes counters good.
With that view on Graft you could even say that haunt does nothing, cause after all: Haunt only removes cards from the game instead of sending them to your graveyard.
No; Haunt mechanically either repeats the CiP of a creature or repeats the effect of an instant/sorcery by associating it with a creature. In that case, the mechanic is fairly broad and limited only by the abilities that it repeats, similar to imprint.
This is probably the best of the graft cards. Or certainly high on the scale of good graft cards. Given the pattern from before, there's probably a couple of constructed-quality creatures with graft, about 4-5 good limited ones, and another couple that are basically chaff.
My problem is that graft as an ability is not interesting. There are a lot of things that you can do that are interesting with counters. You can do the spike mechanics of moving them around during combat, or spending them in various ways. You can refresh them using flicker type effects. You can make something giant at instant speed like modular could.
Graft, however, does none of these things. Furthermore, it doesn't even enable any of these things. All of these things are enabled by things other than graft Combat tricks? Can't do those with graft - graft is a sorcery-speed mechanic only. Paying for things using counters? Graft can only give you counters when it comes into play. You might get more counters, but there are plenty of other ways to add counters to things.
Basically, my argument is that if you removed Graft from all the creatures and just gave them whatever abilities they had + the counters from graft, they would be essentially as good or bad as they are now. That cytoplasmic whateveroid has graft is not what makes him good; it's his ability to move counters around at instant speed, his good P/T ratio, etc that make him good. He's good because there are other creatures with counters in the same set. That they have graft is immaterial.
I would not say that the graft mechanic is 'just a simple boring creature mechanic' as has been stated here. It reminds me of the Spikes of old, and let me tell you, those things were pretty broken when working together. Graft doesn't seem to do those things (like fog, draw cards, gain life,...) but you can start throwing +1/+1 counters around in combat, which seems pretty good at killing your opponents creatures and saving your own. Add blue to this mix and you get a deck that can easily generate the mana and has some bounce to start all over again (peel from reality anyone after distributing your counters??)
Moving counters around during combat is a good ability. It's a shame that's not what graft does.
Gaining things by spending counters can be a cool ability. It's a shame that's not what graft does.
If graft did either or both of these things (like the original ability did) I would think it was very cool. It doesn't. All it does is allow you to move counters from creatures with graft to new creatures when they come into play. That's all. That, by itself, is not that interesting.
VXF, that's been posted at least three times in this thread alone. Try and read the whole thing first.
This guy is probably at the end of the complex scale as far as graft creatures go. In theory you could do things based on graft triggers and the like (though again, nothing too complex; it is all sorcery-speed stuff) but there are only 12 mentions of graft, none of the other mechanics have done the typical 'explore this mechanic in odd ways' that they do with large set mechanics, etc.
At the end of the day, it's a way to move counters on creatures at sorcery speed. Interactions with this are not hugely wide. You can make bigger creatures, or you can kill smaller creatures by removing their last counters. If creatures have leaving play triggers, that might be interesting. If they have a ravager analogue that can cause things to flicker, that might be interesting. I don't bet on either.
Really, though - graft doesn't make these things that interesting. They'd be interesting without graft. Counters on creatures are interesting without graft. Graft doesn't do that much more, and that was my only point.
I'll say it this way: unless there is something like a ravager analogue for graft, it will be limited-only.
Also, I'm bugged because of what it used to be:
2: put a +1/+1 counter on target creature and that creature gains 'ability' until EOT. A very interesting combat mechanic, instant speed ability that can be tweaked for power based on the activation cost.
Man, Graft like that would have been SO much better. Moving counters at instant speed + granting abilities is a far more usable and interesting mechanic. Sigh. Does it say why they changed?
Thinking about it even more graft seems like it will be one of the strongest block mechanics. If we get some 1-3 drops that are solid you'll be seeing graft all over standard me thinks.
Once again to anyone whos saying its boring, look deeper. On the surface it looks sorta boring, but it is less boring than radiance, convoke, and bloodthirst. It is a level beyond those mechanics, it can do more than 1 thing.
Flexibility in magic=good
What other things can be done with graft than 'move counters to creatures as they CiP'? It doesn't seem like that part is particularly tricky.
So you may only move a (i.e. one) counter onto each individual creature you care to when this comes into play, correct?
Hopefully, I am going to give some judge a headache with this card and Ghostway.
Yeah. If you have 3 graft creatures and use ghostway, when they come back into play they would be able to move two counters from themselves onto the other creatures. As an example.
Actually, that's the sweet part... since graft can transfer the counters for free, just put +1/+1 counters on things without graft, and it works on them too. ^^ That's why it's not narrow... it works with things that don't have the mechanic.
That's not really a good way to describe narrow or deep as far as mechanics come. This mechanic is the very definition of a narrow one:
It only applies to creatures.
It only applies to CiP creatures.
It is a static ability that cannot be given to creatures in a relevant way (unlike first strike or vigilance)
It is sorcery speed.
That it happens to work with non-graft creatures is about as relevant as trample interacting with non-trample creatures.
The 'interesting' interactions come because it's CiP, not because it's a deep interaction - but those are the same interactions that spikes had. Graft is a far less interesting ability than spikes by itself.
Think of it this way: this creature and all other abilities surrounding +1/+1 counters have various interactions. CiP, removing counters to grant abilities, swapping counters, etc. Graft has nothing to do with any of those directly. All it does is allow you to move counters from creatures to other creatures at sorcery speed when that creature CiP. That's it. That's super-narrow.
quetzilla, I agree that the cytoplast is a good card, and he's a good card with things that produce or have +1/+1 counters. However, he's really good regardless of having graft. Do you really want to be taking counters away from him most of the time? Yeah, it can make big guys really big, but is that really that interesting of a mechanic? Graft is, IMO, a mechanic that really "Does what it says on the tin". There's not a whole lot of exploration of cool strategies or anything. It's not as usable as modular because it is entirely sorcery speed (barring playing instant-speed creatures); modular at least happened when things went to GY, which you can control in various ways. You can't use graft as a combat trick. You can't use graft to save creatures.
I was hoping that Graft would be a bit more evolving and more like Imprint, but it really appears to be this set's 'boring creature limited' ability, similar to bloodlust.
Also.... 3 grafters in play, play a creature... that creature gets 3/3 but may costs you one or even all three of them. IT definately creates a very unstable sort of inter-related aspect. I'm reminded a lot of unstable mutation
The ability is 'may', not 'must'. You can choose to lose the creatures if you want, but you don't have to.
It looks boring because it's entirely sorcery speed - the graft ability only comes into play when you play creatures. This guy would be good without graft. Graft doesn't do a whole lot for him specifically. In general, creature-related special abilities don't do a whole lot for me, and this one is not even a creature-related ability in combat; it only matters on CiP. Sigh.
Not the way Graft is templated on that card, no. Graft X doesn't allow for much else in the way it's used, both in reminder text and in ability. Which sucks, honestly; Graft looks to be particularly boring.
Pretty sure that this is the way they're going to do it. It's possible that there's a third cycle of split cards that does something even wackier - like a GW/UB type of split - but I doubt it. They're just too annoying to play with.
I don't believe this now, the split card is 1UW? Why would they make a split card with a Dissension guild when it is apparent that all of the split cards are from GPT and RAV guilds.
The split cards are from all 10 guilds. It's a cycle. It's only showing up in Dissension.
urza, my reasoning is that a split card can show up in the orb just fine. Trying the split costs in Crime/Punishment in the Orb both get hits. Trying these costs both do not. Therefore we can conclude that split cards are not automatically messed up in the orb - which was one of the arguments for the card's existence.
Just curious - how do you know that these are 100% correct? Normally I don't doubt things from magazines, but the lack of orbness bugs me.
The ability to move counters from creatures with graft to a creature as you play that creature is just not that strong or that interesting of an ability. Lots of things interacting with counters ARE interesting or strong, and I suspect some of the graft creatures will have them. That doesn't make graft a good ability; it makes counters good.
No; Haunt mechanically either repeats the CiP of a creature or repeats the effect of an instant/sorcery by associating it with a creature. In that case, the mechanic is fairly broad and limited only by the abilities that it repeats, similar to imprint.
My problem is that graft as an ability is not interesting. There are a lot of things that you can do that are interesting with counters. You can do the spike mechanics of moving them around during combat, or spending them in various ways. You can refresh them using flicker type effects. You can make something giant at instant speed like modular could.
Graft, however, does none of these things. Furthermore, it doesn't even enable any of these things. All of these things are enabled by things other than graft Combat tricks? Can't do those with graft - graft is a sorcery-speed mechanic only. Paying for things using counters? Graft can only give you counters when it comes into play. You might get more counters, but there are plenty of other ways to add counters to things.
Basically, my argument is that if you removed Graft from all the creatures and just gave them whatever abilities they had + the counters from graft, they would be essentially as good or bad as they are now. That cytoplasmic whateveroid has graft is not what makes him good; it's his ability to move counters around at instant speed, his good P/T ratio, etc that make him good. He's good because there are other creatures with counters in the same set. That they have graft is immaterial.
Moving counters around during combat is a good ability. It's a shame that's not what graft does.
Gaining things by spending counters can be a cool ability. It's a shame that's not what graft does.
If graft did either or both of these things (like the original ability did) I would think it was very cool. It doesn't. All it does is allow you to move counters from creatures with graft to new creatures when they come into play. That's all. That, by itself, is not that interesting.
VXF, that's been posted at least three times in this thread alone. Try and read the whole thing first.
At the end of the day, it's a way to move counters on creatures at sorcery speed. Interactions with this are not hugely wide. You can make bigger creatures, or you can kill smaller creatures by removing their last counters. If creatures have leaving play triggers, that might be interesting. If they have a ravager analogue that can cause things to flicker, that might be interesting. I don't bet on either.
Really, though - graft doesn't make these things that interesting. They'd be interesting without graft. Counters on creatures are interesting without graft. Graft doesn't do that much more, and that was my only point.
I'll say it this way: unless there is something like a ravager analogue for graft, it will be limited-only.
Also, I'm bugged because of what it used to be:
2: put a +1/+1 counter on target creature and that creature gains 'ability' until EOT. A very interesting combat mechanic, instant speed ability that can be tweaked for power based on the activation cost.
What other things can be done with graft than 'move counters to creatures as they CiP'? It doesn't seem like that part is particularly tricky.
Yeah. If you have 3 graft creatures and use ghostway, when they come back into play they would be able to move two counters from themselves onto the other creatures. As an example.
That's not really a good way to describe narrow or deep as far as mechanics come. This mechanic is the very definition of a narrow one:
It only applies to creatures.
It only applies to CiP creatures.
It is a static ability that cannot be given to creatures in a relevant way (unlike first strike or vigilance)
It is sorcery speed.
That it happens to work with non-graft creatures is about as relevant as trample interacting with non-trample creatures.
The 'interesting' interactions come because it's CiP, not because it's a deep interaction - but those are the same interactions that spikes had. Graft is a far less interesting ability than spikes by itself.
Think of it this way: this creature and all other abilities surrounding +1/+1 counters have various interactions. CiP, removing counters to grant abilities, swapping counters, etc. Graft has nothing to do with any of those directly. All it does is allow you to move counters from creatures to other creatures at sorcery speed when that creature CiP. That's it. That's super-narrow.
I was hoping that Graft would be a bit more evolving and more like Imprint, but it really appears to be this set's 'boring creature limited' ability, similar to bloodlust.
It looks boring because it's entirely sorcery speed - the graft ability only comes into play when you play creatures. This guy would be good without graft. Graft doesn't do a whole lot for him specifically. In general, creature-related special abilities don't do a whole lot for me, and this one is not even a creature-related ability in combat; it only matters on CiP. Sigh.
ferr, good point - I had missed that part.
Enemy colors (rare):
RW//WB (W)
BG//WB (B)
RW//UR (R)
UR//GU (U)
GU//BG (G)
Allied colors (uncommon):
GW//WU (W)
BR//UB (B)
BR//RG (R)
UB//WU (U)
GW//RG (G)
Pretty sure that this is the way they're going to do it. It's possible that there's a third cycle of split cards that does something even wackier - like a GW/UB type of split - but I doubt it. They're just too annoying to play with.
Just curious - how do you know that these are 100% correct? Normally I don't doubt things from magazines, but the lack of orbness bugs me.