I love sunforger to death, so let me give you my personal favorite (ab)use for it: use it to fetch tithe, then fetch a mistveil plains with the tithe, and use the mistveil plains to tuck used instants (including tithe itself) back into your deck, so you can reuse them as many times as you want! This can get extremely nasty with, for example, holy day in a 1v1 game because you can fog them every turn without losing card advantage. If you're doing RWB, wrecking ball used repeatedly would be brutal too.
Sunforger is probably nastiest with RWU though, because you can use absorb and suffocating blast from it. if you're doing RWBU, you can even use punish ignorance, which is probably the best 4-cmc R or W instant in the game.
Oh, and keep in mind, mistveil plains can tuck sunforger so you can tutor it again, as long as you have enough tutors. you can also use oblation from sunforger itself to tuck sunforger, and net some card advantage while you're at it.
Depending on how your playgroup feels about it, you could have everyone build proxy EDH decks to convince them that it's fun.
lin sivvi, defiant hero seems like a lot of fun without being annoying. I've always thought ulasht, the hate seed could be pretty fun, with a deck full of mana elves. just keep recasting it and spraying more and more damage and making more tokens. It would crash hard from wrath, though. If you're introducing EDH, I wouldn't suggest using a competitive general.
well, i'm pissed about tolarian academy getting banned since I traded my pre-release vengevine for one (a trade that hasn't panned out very well financially, but since I hate type 2 and I've never liked green in general, I don't really care that much). That said, it's clearly busted beyond all reason and should have been banned a while ago...I'm just pissed that they took so long to do it, and were so emphatic that it WOULDN'T get banned when i traded for it... >:(
Channel is absolutely idiotic in this format. Again, they should have banned it ages ago. It's been said a thousand times, but it's sort of stupid to ban sway of the stars - a god-awful excuse for a card - while the old, unbelievably overpowered mana producers like channel, sol ring, and mana crypt are still legal - although they better not ban my damn mana crypt because I blew $30 on that thing exclusively to play it in edh.
staff of domination seems like it needed to be banned BECAUSE of rofellos, but without Rofellos it doesn't seem that great. I'm honestly really surprised rofellos is banned, I've played plenty of games against him and never considered him very nasty. With a handful of removal he runs out of mana pretty quickly, and with enough counterspells he ends up with a bunch of mana and nothing useful to spend it on. he's certainly no slouch but Teferi and azami always seemed like nastier generals to me. Whatever, though, I'm not going to play a mono-green edh anytime soon. sure sucks for the people who built rofellos decks, though.
if you don't mind me saying so, this looks more like a multiplayer deck, since you have a lot of "group hug" type cards which seem sort of pointless in 1v1. If you want the same colors of 1v1, I'd suggest Angus Mackenzie, he can really hose some decks. rofellos pretty much rolls over and dies as long as you can kill his eldrazi.
All the edh decks I've built so far have used blue, because in a big group game there's no more efficient way to win than an infinite combo, and there's no better way to screw up an infinite combo than counterspells, and there's no better color for counterspells than blue.
But people are getting whiny about some of my blue generals, even though I don't use any infinite combos, and so I'd like to try different generals/colors. But at the same time, I'd like to not lose to an obnoxious infinite combo on turn 6 in a 6-person game. So what do people think is the best way to prevent combos without drawing hate?
My first thought was black discard. Black doesn't draw nearly as much hate, and you can pluck your opponent's combo cards out of their hand before they get a chance to play them. Obviously it's a bit riskier than blue, but you could always throw in null brooch and the like, and black has the best tutors around to find that sort of thing.
Another thought is gaddock teeg, although he's bound to piss lots of people off. The other issue is that most targeted removal can still get rid of him long enough to combo out, if he's not adequately protected.
Please no more noinations or "This should be on this poll"s.
Also I despise Tetsuo Umezawa and just about every other card that is related to kamigawa block, and on top of that he is just a mockery of Royal assassin.
That is why he is on this poll you don't have to vote for him but I will:D
Good job voters 54 votes in 7 and a half hours racking up the votes quite fast.
Keep it up:D
again, i'm asking you - do you want to know what the worst card is, or do you just want to know what people THINK the worst card is? because there are lots of cards that aren't in the poll, but are far worse than the cards listed there.
if you just want to know what people THINK, then fair enough. But people are idiots - steamflogger boss, a perfectly decent 3/3 for 4 has more votes than mudhole? christ, people are morons.
also, why not hate on cards actually FROM kami if you hate it? tetsuo's only distantly related as far as i know. and he might be harder to use than assassin, but he's a fatter body and he can destroy blockers.
if i attack with 2 goblin guides, does my opponent reveal the top 2 cards, or just one? as the text reads: "Whenever Goblin Guide attacks, defending player reveals the top card of his or her library. If it's a land card, that player puts it into his or her hand." same goes for lurking predators...if i have 2 enchantments out, do i reveal one or 2 cards?
thanks!
both abilities go on the stack, then the resolve in reverse order. if the first one finds a land, then the next card will be revealed when the other ability resolves, and they might end up drawing two lands.
if the first one does not find a land, then the same card will be revealed again, and ostensibly not put into their hand (unless they activate something in between resolutions, i.e. brainstorm).
however, you will never reveal two cards at the same time.
EDIT: lurking predators is the same thing. you'll reveal one card. if it's a creature, put it into the battlefield. if it's not, you can keep it on top and reveal it again, and you'll get the same choice agian, or you can put it on bottom, in which case you'll get another chance when the next ability resolves.
After playing Trance, the game will treat the cards in your opponent graveyard as if they were in your graveyard, as far as playing them is concerned.
So yes, it works well with Yawgmoth's Will. And you can cast a Haakon, Stromgald Scourge that was in your opponent graveyard.
Correct. The cards aren't really transfered to your graveyard, you can simply play than as if they were in yours. In the same vein, if some of the cards in your opponents graveyard have an activated ability, you won't be able to use it.
According to the rules: "Buyback <-cost->" means "You may pay an additional <-cost-> as you cast this spell" and "If the buyback cost was paid, put this spell into its owner's hand instead of into that player's graveyard as it resolves."
So the card returns to your opponents hand.
thanks, that's what i figured. the reminder text on buyback cards must be out-of-synch with the official rules.
I think i need to make a deck that revolves around mill, type-changing, shaman's trance, and haakon now
I assume cards like goryo's vengeance will not work on enemy graveyard targets, since it's not being "cast" from the grave.
on a similar note, i assume that if you use memory plunder and pay a card's buyback costs, it returns to your opponent's hand? commandeer mentioned buyback but memory plunder did not.
in my opinion there are 3 important questions to ask yourself to determine how useless a card is:
1) is thing going to be useful very often in normal play?
2) is it possible to build around this card?
3) does this card do something better than other cards?
if the answers are:
yes, yes, yes: great card. (tarmogoyf)
yes, yes, no: fun casual card. (gelectrode)
yes, no, yes: generic good card. (baneslayer angel)
no, yes, yes: good combo card. (high tide)
yes, no, no: overcosted card (rakalite)
no, yes, no: bad combo card (chaoslace)
no, no, yes: niche sideboard card (leeches)
no, no no: OH GOD WHY???? (great wall)
you may have noticed that the cards in the former 4 categories are all pretty good cards, while the last 4 are awful. However, I would say that a card can only be the WORST if it is "no, no, no". leeches is viable vs a poison deck. rakalite is awful, but if you had the extra mana, you'd play it, use it, and get a benefit from it. chaoslace is bad but you can still build a deck that can get some decent use out of it.
There is absolutely no deck that could be built to use great wall effectively. The odds of it being useful are next to nothing. And on top that, there are cards that are more effective at doing almost exactly the same thing. leeches, laces, and rakalite are all bad, but they don't stand up the concentrated piss-stain that is great wall.
No, it's true. It was a typo made while printing up the playtest cards. It was left as is "because it was funny." See this article.
i know it was originally a typo (i actually read that exact article, for some reason) but they COULD have changed it if they wanted to. it didn't actually get printed as a typo. Obviously typos can happen at various stages, but they check over them before printing.
Sunforger is probably nastiest with RWU though, because you can use absorb and suffocating blast from it. if you're doing RWBU, you can even use punish ignorance, which is probably the best 4-cmc R or W instant in the game.
I can see the appeal of using black over blue, though, since you don't get many tutors in blue, and none in red. You've got drift of phantasms, enlightened tutor, steelshaper's gift, stonehewer giant, stoneforge mystic, fabricate, reshape, transmute artifact, and planar portal...that's all i can think of in my head, but you can also use mystical tutor to get steelshapers gift, etc. Black does give you a lot more tutoring options, though, so it might work better for an EDH deck around sunforger.
Oh, and keep in mind, mistveil plains can tuck sunforger so you can tutor it again, as long as you have enough tutors. you can also use oblation from sunforger itself to tuck sunforger, and net some card advantage while you're at it.
i know you made a mistake, I was defending All Is Dust's statements.
lin sivvi, defiant hero seems like a lot of fun without being annoying. I've always thought ulasht, the hate seed could be pretty fun, with a deck full of mana elves. just keep recasting it and spraying more and more damage and making more tokens. It would crash hard from wrath, though. If you're introducing EDH, I wouldn't suggest using a competitive general.
he means you can generate 3 mana turn 1 with crypt + a land. With sol ring, you have to use the land to play the ring, so you've only got 2 on turn 1.
crypt isn't as good in edh since games tend to go long. in vintage crypt is better imo.
Channel is absolutely idiotic in this format. Again, they should have banned it ages ago. It's been said a thousand times, but it's sort of stupid to ban sway of the stars - a god-awful excuse for a card - while the old, unbelievably overpowered mana producers like channel, sol ring, and mana crypt are still legal - although they better not ban my damn mana crypt because I blew $30 on that thing exclusively to play it in edh.
staff of domination seems like it needed to be banned BECAUSE of rofellos, but without Rofellos it doesn't seem that great. I'm honestly really surprised rofellos is banned, I've played plenty of games against him and never considered him very nasty. With a handful of removal he runs out of mana pretty quickly, and with enough counterspells he ends up with a bunch of mana and nothing useful to spend it on. he's certainly no slouch but Teferi and azami always seemed like nastier generals to me. Whatever, though, I'm not going to play a mono-green edh anytime soon. sure sucks for the people who built rofellos decks, though.
But people are getting whiny about some of my blue generals, even though I don't use any infinite combos, and so I'd like to try different generals/colors. But at the same time, I'd like to not lose to an obnoxious infinite combo on turn 6 in a 6-person game. So what do people think is the best way to prevent combos without drawing hate?
My first thought was black discard. Black doesn't draw nearly as much hate, and you can pluck your opponent's combo cards out of their hand before they get a chance to play them. Obviously it's a bit riskier than blue, but you could always throw in null brooch and the like, and black has the best tutors around to find that sort of thing.
Another thought is gaddock teeg, although he's bound to piss lots of people off. The other issue is that most targeted removal can still get rid of him long enough to combo out, if he's not adequately protected.
any other ideas?
again, i'm asking you - do you want to know what the worst card is, or do you just want to know what people THINK the worst card is? because there are lots of cards that aren't in the poll, but are far worse than the cards listed there.
if you just want to know what people THINK, then fair enough. But people are idiots - steamflogger boss, a perfectly decent 3/3 for 4 has more votes than mudhole? christ, people are morons.
also, why not hate on cards actually FROM kami if you hate it? tetsuo's only distantly related as far as i know. and he might be harder to use than assassin, but he's a fatter body and he can destroy blockers.
Spam/Troll Infraction.
both abilities go on the stack, then the resolve in reverse order. if the first one finds a land, then the next card will be revealed when the other ability resolves, and they might end up drawing two lands.
if the first one does not find a land, then the same card will be revealed again, and ostensibly not put into their hand (unless they activate something in between resolutions, i.e. brainstorm).
however, you will never reveal two cards at the same time.
EDIT: lurking predators is the same thing. you'll reveal one card. if it's a creature, put it into the battlefield. if it's not, you can keep it on top and reveal it again, and you'll get the same choice agian, or you can put it on bottom, in which case you'll get another chance when the next ability resolves.
thanks, that's what i figured. the reminder text on buyback cards must be out-of-synch with the official rules.
I think i need to make a deck that revolves around mill, type-changing, shaman's trance, and haakon now
sorrow's path + tamanoa + spitemare (+ urborg, tomb of yawgmoth...optional) = can win the game.
sorrow's path > sorrow's path
...
logic has no meaning!
seriously, sorrow's path is NOT THAT BAD. there are two ways to use it (that I can think of):
use lots of damage-loving creatures (see above, plus wall of hope, phytohydra, sprouting phytohydra, vigor, rite of passage, etc) and a way to tap it easily (i like urborg.)
give it to the opponent with political trickery, vedalken plotter, or shifting borders and tap it with rishadan port etc...possibly even untap it, then tap it again.
both of those strategies are decent. a card doesn't have to work in every deck to be good. it just has to be good in one deck.
great wall is useless in every deck. ever.
I assume cards like goryo's vengeance will not work on enemy graveyard targets, since it's not being "cast" from the grave.
on a similar note, i assume that if you use memory plunder and pay a card's buyback costs, it returns to your opponent's hand? commandeer mentioned buyback but memory plunder did not.
1) is thing going to be useful very often in normal play?
2) is it possible to build around this card?
3) does this card do something better than other cards?
if the answers are:
yes, yes, yes: great card. (tarmogoyf)
yes, yes, no: fun casual card. (gelectrode)
yes, no, yes: generic good card. (baneslayer angel)
no, yes, yes: good combo card. (high tide)
yes, no, no: overcosted card (rakalite)
no, yes, no: bad combo card (chaoslace)
no, no, yes: niche sideboard card (leeches)
no, no no: OH GOD WHY???? (great wall)
you may have noticed that the cards in the former 4 categories are all pretty good cards, while the last 4 are awful. However, I would say that a card can only be the WORST if it is "no, no, no". leeches is viable vs a poison deck. rakalite is awful, but if you had the extra mana, you'd play it, use it, and get a benefit from it. chaoslace is bad but you can still build a deck that can get some decent use out of it.
There is absolutely no deck that could be built to use great wall effectively. The odds of it being useful are next to nothing. And on top that, there are cards that are more effective at doing almost exactly the same thing. leeches, laces, and rakalite are all bad, but they don't stand up the concentrated piss-stain that is great wall.
i know it was originally a typo (i actually read that exact article, for some reason) but they COULD have changed it if they wanted to. it didn't actually get printed as a typo. Obviously typos can happen at various stages, but they check over them before printing.
haha, ok, i stand corrected. bizarre. i didn't even notice that. I'm amazed that sort of thing can happen, though.
anyway, mindless null as printed wasn't a typo, there was just a typo that contributed to its creation process. That's all i was saying.
EDIT: btw, my pick for the worst overall card - taking into account art as well as effect - celestial prism