Completely disagree here from my point of view. You can proxy all your stuff you whant to have for spening Zero$ or you can start your printer and print your proxies or are ya to lazy to do so?
I'm not a P9 holder or any close to this price/rarity, but since Magic exist some cardprices are rising while others are falling. A big complicated business has been build around Magic, so don't come with this "everyone should have everything he whant's to"-mentality in a tradingcard game wich exist far longer as you play it... Why you don't quit and play yugeligooo ?
Actually even the creators of the game essentially agree that cards should be fairly inexpensive and very accessible. Magic is not a game that is enhanced by $100 goyfs. It keeps potential customers on the sidelines and that is a bad business model. Now WoTC needs the secondary market to some extent, especially the brick and mortars that run tournaments, but if they could cap singles prices at $20 by printing higher volumes they would. Unfortunately there is not really a good way to do this when you need to estimate at the original print run how much will be needed long term. With Magic having grown about 100% past sets, even recent past, are in drastically inferior supply. Not addressing the issue with reprints would be folly as its their chance to print money. That is precisely why they are embracing the success they are having with the different pre-con products, people want them and they make good money on them.
I'll just stay away from the reserve list issue here, it's been done to death.
I dont think reserved list has anything to do with card value.
Isnt Future Sight supposed to be a bunch of cards that are previewed from future sets anyway? Doesnt that mean that they have to eventually reprint Goyf? Its possible I could be wrong, as I have been wrong exactly once in the past.
Right, I know it is different. It seems that some think there may be an unofficial undisclosed "do not reprint for secondary market price consideration" list or policy which would preclude such items as Tarmogoyf from possible reprint in favor of ignoring the issue of their prices or banning those cards. I was only commenting on this idea.
Seems like banning goyf could be a viable solution afterall, first you can't release it again as it will hurt prices but without a release new modern players are unable to have access to it. Banning goyf will not hurt prices too much since it is still a legacy staple.
I am curious as to what you think WoTC's policy is on secondary market prices and reprints. What $X.XX do you think is the line in the sand after which a card is unofficially on the reserve list?
If the policy really is to use a $25.00 price point to reprint cards before they pass $25.00 in an attempt to control prices, then ban anything seeing play much above that price point I expect Moderns life span to be very short indeed.
It makes infinitely more business sense to reprint anything and everything that becomes popular, the reserve list issue aside, in every format. Given the current status of the reserve list, Modern is the place to make the stand and reprint, reprint, reprint and maintain the most accessible and profitable companion to standard possible. If they miss this opportunity the long term future of Magic is almost certainly in jeopardy.
The reserve list, while a mistake, is largely unimportant from a business stand point. Legacy and Vintage can die quietly and fall off like a vestigial tail when the time comes (20 years?, 100 years?, I'm not certain when but I know it is inevitable). They do not have the same luxury with Modern as it will be what allows a financial buffer in case they ever release a set or block that bombs. Modern price control is of the essence to WoTC's long term viability.
Clearly, this scenario is just as likely as someone wanting to force G/W beats or wishing to avoid playing black.
Now we're insulting the intelligence of people who make draft decisions based on reasons besides monetary value?
So, take this scenario. It's later tonight and I've hopped into a draft online wishing to explore a U/W fliers deck. My first pack contains Liliana of the Veil and Murder of Crows. With 40 Innistrad booster packs stocked up from various winnings, I don't need to worry about the 6 tickets Liliana would net me in the worst case scenario of not winning any packs in this particular draft. As such, I stick to my plan of forcing U/W and take the Murder. You'd say that I'm not an intelligent person?
A. Money is all that matters in life and Magic. If you play the game and don't worry about endlessly increasing your monetary position you are not smart.
B. Playing a game should be about PLAYING the game. You do what is better for your game.
I think that is a good way to sum up everything so far on this whole discussion. Choose A if you're not financially secure, B if you are.
Magic is no longer a collectable card game. Too many reprints of valuable cards with all of these stupid special releases. I wanted to play a reanimator deck and didn't own entomb so I bought 4. 4 x $40 = $160. Now they will drop to what? $5? Wizards should NEVER reprint cards once they go over $10 on the secondary market.
col·lect·i·ble also col·lect·a·ble (k-lkt-bl)
adj.
1. That can be collected: a collectible loan.
2. Worthy of being collected: collectible antique coins.
n.
One of a group or class of objects, such as period glass or historical memorabilia, sought by collectors.
Noun 1. collectiblecollectible - things considered to be worth collecting (not necessarily valuable or antique)
Created to be collected
A "manufactured" collectable (often referred to as a contemporary collectable) is an item made specifically for people to collect. The terms special edition, limited edition and variants such as deluxe edition, collector's edition and others, fall under the category of manufactured collectable and are used as a marketing incentive for various kinds of products, originally published products related to the arts, such as books, prints or recorded music and films, but now including cars, fine wine and other collectables. A limited edition is restricted in the number of copies produced, although in fact the number may be very low or very high.[5] A special edition implies there is extra material of some kind included. Some companies that produce manufactured collectables are members of The Gift and Collectibles Guild.[4]
col·lect 1 (k-lkt)
v. col·lect·ed, col·lect·ing, col·lects
v.tr.
1. To bring together in a group or mass; gather.
2. To accumulate as a hobby or for study.
3. To call for and obtain payment of: collect taxes.
4. To recover control of: collect one's emotions.
5. To call for (someone); pick up: collected the children and drove home.
v.intr.
1. To come together in a group or mass; gather. See Synonyms at gather.
2. To take in payments or donations: collecting for charity.
adv. & adj.
With payment to be made by the receiver: called collect; a collect phone call.
I guess I am missing where the idea of a collectable card game indicates no reprints ever. Star Wars CCG issued unlimited reprints all the time with white borders. The terms TCG and CCG are interchangeable. Trading cards such as baseball cards are collectable. The fact you CAN collect something in no way assures you of its eternal increase in value. This is not and never has been marketed as an invest-able card game. Investing in collectables is notorious for price fluctuations and a lack of liquidity. How's your Beanie Baby retirement fund looking?
This small increase would, it seems to me, be smaller than the 25% increase than the consumer would see if they purchased the packs themselves. Thus, it would be wiser for the consumer to just buy more singles than packs.
This is a valid point. Singles will see changes but rather than 25% across the board you could expect that most everything except chase rares and mythics will remain constant. They will instead have to makeup the difference.
Current box price to vendor $70 (I'm estimating from my LGS preorder box price of $85 a box)
36 rares, likely 4.5 mythics, estimate 1/5 of rares and mythics are chased
31.5*0.2=6.3 chase rares $5 estimated avg value each
4.5*0.2= 0.9 chase mythics $30 estimated avg value each
3.6 non-chase mythics $3 estimated avg value each
25.2 non-chase rares $1 estimated avg value each
Estimate box value $94.50 seems about right on, average return of $25 on vendors $70 investment.
Now increase the vendor price to $87.5 and assume only chase cards prices increase and vendor needs the same $25 per box to make any money after labor of opening, sorting and selling cards.
31.5*0.2=6.3 chase rares $Y estimated avg value each
4.5*0.2= 0.9 chase mythics $X estimated avg value each
3.6 non-chase mythics $3 estimated avg value each
25.2 non-chase rares $1 estimated avg value each
assume a standard spread between rares and mythics, X=6*Y
112.5= 36 + Y + 6Y
Y= 11
X= 65.5
So if pack prices increase 25% expect up to a 100% increase in chase card values. In sets like WWK with a single chase mythic a $200 JTMS would not have been unreasonable. Now sure you could dilute the price increase by upping normal rares a bit, but the reason they sell for so little is no one will buy them for any more. Only chase cards can find buyers at higher prices.
Unless WOTC can smooth the value curve by making nearly all mythics playable in tournament quality standard decks, a 25% increase would be a lethal shock to the player base, regardless of whether you buy singles or packs.
If the packs go to 20 cards with a Foil in every pack then I say go for it. Or if they put something nutty like a bunch of reprints for modern in the packs then I'm on board.
People seem to miss out on the fact that you have already been paying more for your cards. Did you forget that they took away a common so that you could get lands? Last time I checked Lands went for about a penny.
If they added a foil slot in 100% of packs, $5 a pack could probably be justified without hurting sales much. Just adding commons or uncommons back would not do it.
Alternately adding a cards with the (M) set symbol that are modern legal reprints would also go over well even if they would somewhat complicate drafting, etc.
A jump to $5.00 each would only help if WOTC believes they cannot actually print enough cards to meet demand at $4.00 a pack.
I think that each color needs a counter-like effect with it's own flavor rather than just straight up countering a spell.
3R- Remove target spell from the stack with two time counters on it.
1B- counter target spell. Put X 2/2 zombie on the battlefield under that spell owner's control where X is that spells CMC.
2G Enchantment- Instants and sorcery spells on the stacks are enchantments in addition to their other types. (Not sure if this would work, but it would make spells vulnerable to naturalize effects.) W- I don't feel that White really needs help in this area.
I think this is definitely a route that could be taken to a limited degree.
R- counter target spell, choose a card at random from that players deck, they may cast it without playing it's mana cost.
Theme: Chaos
B- counter target spell, Pay life equal to the spells mana cost.
Theme: blood for power
G- counter target spell, that spells controller puts a x/x elemental token into play under their control with x equal to the spells mana cost.
Theme: Life and growth
W- counter target spell, unless that player pays W or 2 .
Theme: Law
I'm not going to guess at what mana costs would be balanced, but I think each effect at least makes sense and could be printable. If you spread them over many sets.
Yes, that money does dissolve. These same people would have already been in the store on release weekend to draft so it's not like they're just delaying their purchase. That money they have in their pockets on pre-release weekend will now go to something else. Maybe into our store, maybe not.
By that logic if set's all released a week earlier, your store would make more money, this makes no sense at all. I think you need to rethink this a little.
Yes, it is punishing us. No, it's not pushing away casuals to have side drafts unless that is ALL you do is draft. Wouldn't you say it would be a dumb idea for a store to hold nothing but drafts for pre-release? Of course. It takes away options. That's precisely what WotC has done here, take away options. So yes, I know it won't work because I know my customer base. I know customer bases at several stores, and I know that this change in no way helps the stores because it removes options and doesn't add any new ones. Anyone that knows business will tell you that it's a bad idea.
You only get X amount of product. You can offer Y sealed players a chance to play or Z draft players. Each sealed spot takes twice the packs of each draft spot. The more drafters, the less sealed. Unless you have never had to turn a single customer away because you were out of spots, then yes, you are pushing out the casuals that WOTC wants to cater to at the prerelease. If you have never been full up and out of packs for sealed, then WOTC wants to offer you less product because you are helping flood the market before the release.
Our booster drafts on Saturday are populated primarily by three types of people: Those that have a poor record due to a poor sealed pool and don't want to keep losing with a crappy deck, those that don't want to pay $25 or more for an event, and those that don't have all day for a tournament and want to play a quick booster draft. Those players just got screwed. So did we, as while we get that first type of person in the store, the other two have NO REASON AT ALL to come to our store now. More money lost, thanks Wizards!
On that day, yes, sure. Now they do have a reason to come release day. At my store we got 64 attendees to the sealed, up from about 48 back in shards. On top of that we had at least 30 people who wanted to draft, plus players in the sealed that wanted to drop and draft after a few rounds. Now maybe your store is massive, but just seating 64 people is a feat for my store. Moving the drafters to the following weekend, which was usually almost barren is a great move and maximizes the ability to provide customers a great experience.
Even worse, once again these idiots didn't come up with anything to replace this program to help appeal to the customers they are driving away. It's ridiculous and short-sighted.
It's a week, are the drafters permanently disinterested in drafting if it isn't at the prerelease? Does the money in their pockets dissolve? You were using your sealed product to push drafting more easily maximize sales. That is a smart move, but it isn't what WOTC wants, if you lose a lot of money and many other stores do the same, count on WOTC to change its mind.
As for the casuals, they don't have to draft if they don't want to. DUH. No one is holding a gun to their head and forcing them to draft. It's nice to have the OPTION there though, and it's stupid to punish the players that like to draft.
It's not punishing anyone, it's focusing. And yes, it is pushing away casuals to have drafts, unless you get unlimited quantities of product, the more the draft, the less there is for sealed. You don't know this won't work, just that it is counter to how you have been running your business, which has been working. Can you really say that this cannot, if marketed to your customers correctly, lead to higher sales? Do you know for a fact you have completely tapped your local casual market?
Change sucks, even when it's for the better, but later, it doesn't.
I am pretty happy about this. Our store has too keep upping the amount of people they register for the prereleases due to demand. About half drop as soon as drafts are announced then run in every round of the draft while even more people show up at draft time. This makes the store extremely crowded all day. We had 64 for ISD and we used to be full at 48. For ISD they at least held off the draft until after the sealed went to top 8, luckily they all split as we had to get my friends little brother home... and he was 4 at that point.
Now Launch parties actually will get attendance and people won't farm the prerelease for mythics to sell.
Ah, well I guess that answers that then, plus today's Planeswalker's Guide to INN article that explains that lycanthropy on INN is the result of the "Spirit of the Wild" deciding to randomly mess with people rather than a specific infection or curse shows that they're putting their own spin on warewolves.
I am really glad they decided to mix it up and keep them separate.
Only special vampires make new vampires.
Zombies are made in labs, not just by being bitten by zombies.
Werewolves are influenced by the spirit of the wild.
I would really have detested a set that often ended in games with Black zombie vampire werewolves on the field.
Actually even the creators of the game essentially agree that cards should be fairly inexpensive and very accessible. Magic is not a game that is enhanced by $100 goyfs. It keeps potential customers on the sidelines and that is a bad business model. Now WoTC needs the secondary market to some extent, especially the brick and mortars that run tournaments, but if they could cap singles prices at $20 by printing higher volumes they would. Unfortunately there is not really a good way to do this when you need to estimate at the original print run how much will be needed long term. With Magic having grown about 100% past sets, even recent past, are in drastically inferior supply. Not addressing the issue with reprints would be folly as its their chance to print money. That is precisely why they are embracing the success they are having with the different pre-con products, people want them and they make good money on them.
I'll just stay away from the reserve list issue here, it's been done to death.
Indeed, that is my one disappointment in the Premium deck series... but I buy them anyway because the decklists are just so good.
Right, I know it is different. It seems that some think there may be an unofficial undisclosed "do not reprint for secondary market price consideration" list or policy which would preclude such items as Tarmogoyf from possible reprint in favor of ignoring the issue of their prices or banning those cards. I was only commenting on this idea.
I am curious as to what you think WoTC's policy is on secondary market prices and reprints. What $X.XX do you think is the line in the sand after which a card is unofficially on the reserve list?
Knight of the Reliquary saw reprint at around $15.00
Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker saw reprint at around $25.00
Stoneforge Mystic saw reprint albeit with banning in modern at $25.00
If the policy really is to use a $25.00 price point to reprint cards before they pass $25.00 in an attempt to control prices, then ban anything seeing play much above that price point I expect Moderns life span to be very short indeed.
It makes infinitely more business sense to reprint anything and everything that becomes popular, the reserve list issue aside, in every format. Given the current status of the reserve list, Modern is the place to make the stand and reprint, reprint, reprint and maintain the most accessible and profitable companion to standard possible. If they miss this opportunity the long term future of Magic is almost certainly in jeopardy.
The reserve list, while a mistake, is largely unimportant from a business stand point. Legacy and Vintage can die quietly and fall off like a vestigial tail when the time comes (20 years?, 100 years?, I'm not certain when but I know it is inevitable). They do not have the same luxury with Modern as it will be what allows a financial buffer in case they ever release a set or block that bombs. Modern price control is of the essence to WoTC's long term viability.
A. Money is all that matters in life and Magic. If you play the game and don't worry about endlessly increasing your monetary position you are not smart.
B. Playing a game should be about PLAYING the game. You do what is better for your game.
I think that is a good way to sum up everything so far on this whole discussion. Choose A if you're not financially secure, B if you are.
col·lect·i·ble also col·lect·a·ble (k-lkt-bl)
adj.
1. That can be collected: a collectible loan.
2. Worthy of being collected: collectible antique coins.
n.
One of a group or class of objects, such as period glass or historical memorabilia, sought by collectors.
Noun 1. collectiblecollectible - things considered to be worth collecting (not necessarily valuable or antique)
Created to be collected
A "manufactured" collectable (often referred to as a contemporary collectable) is an item made specifically for people to collect. The terms special edition, limited edition and variants such as deluxe edition, collector's edition and others, fall under the category of manufactured collectable and are used as a marketing incentive for various kinds of products, originally published products related to the arts, such as books, prints or recorded music and films, but now including cars, fine wine and other collectables. A limited edition is restricted in the number of copies produced, although in fact the number may be very low or very high.[5] A special edition implies there is extra material of some kind included. Some companies that produce manufactured collectables are members of The Gift and Collectibles Guild.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectable
col·lect 1 (k-lkt)
v. col·lect·ed, col·lect·ing, col·lects
v.tr.
1. To bring together in a group or mass; gather.
2. To accumulate as a hobby or for study.
3. To call for and obtain payment of: collect taxes.
4. To recover control of: collect one's emotions.
5. To call for (someone); pick up: collected the children and drove home.
v.intr.
1. To come together in a group or mass; gather. See Synonyms at gather.
2. To take in payments or donations: collecting for charity.
adv. & adj.
With payment to be made by the receiver: called collect; a collect phone call.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/collect
I guess I am missing where the idea of a collectable card game indicates no reprints ever. Star Wars CCG issued unlimited reprints all the time with white borders. The terms TCG and CCG are interchangeable. Trading cards such as baseball cards are collectable. The fact you CAN collect something in no way assures you of its eternal increase in value. This is not and never has been marketed as an invest-able card game. Investing in collectables is notorious for price fluctuations and a lack of liquidity. How's your Beanie Baby retirement fund looking?
This is a valid point. Singles will see changes but rather than 25% across the board you could expect that most everything except chase rares and mythics will remain constant. They will instead have to makeup the difference.
Current box price to vendor $70 (I'm estimating from my LGS preorder box price of $85 a box)
36 rares, likely 4.5 mythics, estimate 1/5 of rares and mythics are chased
31.5*0.2=6.3 chase rares $5 estimated avg value each
4.5*0.2= 0.9 chase mythics $30 estimated avg value each
3.6 non-chase mythics $3 estimated avg value each
25.2 non-chase rares $1 estimated avg value each
Estimate box value $94.50 seems about right on, average return of $25 on vendors $70 investment.
Now increase the vendor price to $87.5 and assume only chase cards prices increase and vendor needs the same $25 per box to make any money after labor of opening, sorting and selling cards.
31.5*0.2=6.3 chase rares $Y estimated avg value each
4.5*0.2= 0.9 chase mythics $X estimated avg value each
3.6 non-chase mythics $3 estimated avg value each
25.2 non-chase rares $1 estimated avg value each
assume a standard spread between rares and mythics, X=6*Y
112.5= 36 + Y + 6Y
Y= 11
X= 65.5
So if pack prices increase 25% expect up to a 100% increase in chase card values. In sets like WWK with a single chase mythic a $200 JTMS would not have been unreasonable. Now sure you could dilute the price increase by upping normal rares a bit, but the reason they sell for so little is no one will buy them for any more. Only chase cards can find buyers at higher prices.
Unless WOTC can smooth the value curve by making nearly all mythics playable in tournament quality standard decks, a 25% increase would be a lethal shock to the player base, regardless of whether you buy singles or packs.
If they added a foil slot in 100% of packs, $5 a pack could probably be justified without hurting sales much. Just adding commons or uncommons back would not do it.
Alternately adding a cards with the (M) set symbol that are modern legal reprints would also go over well even if they would somewhat complicate drafting, etc.
A jump to $5.00 each would only help if WOTC believes they cannot actually print enough cards to meet demand at $4.00 a pack.
I think this is definitely a route that could be taken to a limited degree.
R- counter target spell, choose a card at random from that players deck, they may cast it without playing it's mana cost.
Theme: Chaos
B- counter target spell, Pay life equal to the spells mana cost.
Theme: blood for power
G- counter target spell, that spells controller puts a x/x elemental token into play under their control with x equal to the spells mana cost.
Theme: Life and growth
W- counter target spell, unless that player pays W or 2 .
Theme: Law
I'm not going to guess at what mana costs would be balanced, but I think each effect at least makes sense and could be printable. If you spread them over many sets.
By that logic if set's all released a week earlier, your store would make more money, this makes no sense at all. I think you need to rethink this a little.
You only get X amount of product. You can offer Y sealed players a chance to play or Z draft players. Each sealed spot takes twice the packs of each draft spot. The more drafters, the less sealed. Unless you have never had to turn a single customer away because you were out of spots, then yes, you are pushing out the casuals that WOTC wants to cater to at the prerelease. If you have never been full up and out of packs for sealed, then WOTC wants to offer you less product because you are helping flood the market before the release.
On that day, yes, sure. Now they do have a reason to come release day. At my store we got 64 attendees to the sealed, up from about 48 back in shards. On top of that we had at least 30 people who wanted to draft, plus players in the sealed that wanted to drop and draft after a few rounds. Now maybe your store is massive, but just seating 64 people is a feat for my store. Moving the drafters to the following weekend, which was usually almost barren is a great move and maximizes the ability to provide customers a great experience.
It's a week, are the drafters permanently disinterested in drafting if it isn't at the prerelease? Does the money in their pockets dissolve? You were using your sealed product to push drafting more easily maximize sales. That is a smart move, but it isn't what WOTC wants, if you lose a lot of money and many other stores do the same, count on WOTC to change its mind.
It's not punishing anyone, it's focusing. And yes, it is pushing away casuals to have drafts, unless you get unlimited quantities of product, the more the draft, the less there is for sealed. You don't know this won't work, just that it is counter to how you have been running your business, which has been working. Can you really say that this cannot, if marketed to your customers correctly, lead to higher sales? Do you know for a fact you have completely tapped your local casual market?
Change sucks, even when it's for the better, but later, it doesn't.
Now Launch parties actually will get attendance and people won't farm the prerelease for mythics to sell.
I am really glad they decided to mix it up and keep them separate.
Only special vampires make new vampires.
Zombies are made in labs, not just by being bitten by zombies.
Werewolves are influenced by the spirit of the wild.
I would really have detested a set that often ended in games with Black zombie vampire werewolves on the field.
It is in all likelihood mono-black mana wise, but full of reanimation targets from across the board.