This card is almost perfectly designed. It is Sword of Body and Mind's little brother. It is perfect for draft/limited and not really anything to write home about for constructed. It isn't your first choice in a mill deck or an aggro deck... so it won't have a home unless you need sword 4-8 for some inconceivable reason.
The most impressive part is how well they toed the line between constructed and draft/limited.
My Red, White, Blue and Green standard matte back Ultra-Pros are no good. The black ones are fine.
All my art back Ultra-Pro sleeves seem to be fine.
The only problem this really poses is for my EDH decks as the matte sleeves are what I stocked up on for 100 card decks, the art sleeves come 80 to a set which is not enough and buying 2 seems like overkill. I think in general my play group knows I'm not going to be using this to cheat, otherwise if it becomes an issue I'll just use the proxy card and clear sleeve the DFC's.
I think it is most likely that the block plays out more like a cycle of the seasons.
"The Flight of Goldnight. These angels are associated with the sun, in contrast with Avacyn herself. Once a year during the Harvest Moon season, the sun will not dip below the horizon for two full days, and during this time the moon isn't visible. Known as the Feast of Goldnight, this is the holiest day for the humans. It is the time when the Avacynian enchantments are strongest throughout Innistrad.
The Flight of Alabaster. These angels personify the Blessed Sleep and are associated with the Hunter's Moon season. They provide magic that wards against the desecration of dead humans.
The Flight of Herons. These are the angels of birth and purity and are associated with the New Moon season. Their magic is said to ward humans against harm in life (as opposed to the Alabaster host, which wards against harm in death)."
We begin in the Hunter's Moon with Flight Alabaster. Next we enter the New Moon with Flight Heron. This is a good time for Sorin to show up and challenge Liliana for power over the demonic forces she commanding or seeking. In the third set we enter the Harvest Moon and Garruk and Sorin chase Liliana off the plane while the Human's are strongest.
This plane seems like it is mostly going to give us a look at the never ending cycle of moon's, with a little back story occurring between the walkers. A good break from the last set's story driven arc.
I think that was the point. It makes them more available for Legacy/EDH players, while not saturating Modern with too much powerful mana fixing.
That was indeed the point. I can't see letting modern have 10 fetches available. Shocks are already in and so are enemy fetches. That seems more viable long term. Shocks make too much sense not to reprint in a return to Ravnica block.
Any allied fetch reprint will be outside of standard/modern for at least a few years.
Goyf gets a possible in with m13 only because I think the situational reprints have been testing the waters. If Goyf still seems too big for T2, we'll see him in a precon.
Return to Ravnica will bring the Shocks, unless WOTC isn't serious about selling packs and pushing Modern. They are though.
M13 will still just have allied M12/11/10 lands, they are just too perfect.
Allied fetches are not coming back anytime soon. I'm not sure it's healthy to have modern running with both sets of fetches. They might end up in some kind of pre-con product.
Pain lands are gone forever.
Goyf, he's gonna end up in something someday soon, though most likely in M13 or a pre-con product.
To paraphrase: it's not the cards that need to be banned. It's the decks which players choose to build that violate Rule 0: the Gentleman's Agreement to play games of multiplayer Magic that are interactive and fun.
Yes, exactly. Which is why the banlist is A. optional and B. focused on removing items that tend to turn any deck into a non-interactive one.
The qualifiers for banning are very clear on the commander website. They have been reiterated over and over on this thread.
Banning decks is impossible:
Explain how one bans a deck in a non-convoluted manner please. Do you ban executing specific combos? Do you think any such rule can be enforceable? The banlist is about setting an indication of what you shouldn't try to do and since a combo piece is banned, can't do.
Balancing edh is a contradiction in terms:
The attraction is the opportunity to play big bombs that you could never run in competitive magic and a wide variety of spells that singleton brings. Balance is something you do to a competitive sport, not theater. If you play EDH with your only goal being to win as fast and hard as possible every game... you are missing the MAGIC of it. You don't buy a Lamborghini because it's the most precision drive and best acceleration, you buy it because it's bombastic and flashy and fun. You shouldn't turn a Lambo into a McClaren, they can both exist separately. Not every car needs to be a McClaren.
Moxes scare new comers due to price:
They could certainly have a home, if they were accessible. Every EDH deck could use a few. As they aren't accessible, it becomes a matter of haves and have nots. All the sudden I realize you have a Lambo and I have to use a go cart. Sure some EDH decks are spendy, but we're talking mana bases here, most EDH decks have fairly affordable ones. Can the format survive moxes now, balance wise, probably as their real impact on games is not going to be insane usually, but psychologically I doubt it could keep drawing people in as well. It takes a lot of the friendliness away.
Sol Ring is readily available and has a limited impact on game outcomes as it is only mana acceleration and while it is certainly superb, it is no channel.
I'm going to assume you people know how to read, so any further argument that things are banned in EDH for being "broken" (whatever that means in the context of the format) shall be regarded as admission that you are illiterate.
Let's just end this all here and now. Audiox has summed it all up. If balanced edh is actually of interest to people... Play EDH with cards from the Modern format and use its banlist, just start playing it like a format and if anyone actually likes it then it will catch on. It won't, because that is not what EDH is about.
OP has stated the banlist is to keep spikes in line and in some ways it is, but it is to take away the crowning jewels not their power tools. The game is healthy that way and everyone gets to use those power tools we love so much.
It is my opinion (but certainly not only mine!) that a balanced format is more interesting than a warped format.
Now, if you didn't mean that, that's fine. But, I think you still have not established two things:
(1) The current format is unhealthy and/or imbalanced.
(2) The cause of the unhealth and/or imbalance is Sol Rung.
If you're going to make that claim, then I think you need to revisit the core of your article and the argument you've made. Because it is not the strongest argument by any means.
I think that's far too liberal a paraphrase of the comments from this article.
I'm going to second this. If you cannot clearly and concisely state your arguments for points 1 and 2, I think we are all done here.
Jace was not banned because he showed up in every deck, he was banned because he made only one deck playable. If sol ring made it so every EDH deck had to be <general A build A> then you would have a point and it would be warping the format. It isn't, because no such thing is true.
The first is quite possibly the best land for EDH ever printed when considered in the average of all known decks. The seconds is a superb mana accelerator. The third gives your general staying power and an early hit.
All three warp the format by your definition. I want all three in almost any opening hand and are auto includes. All three are above the curve significantly. Why is it only Sol Ring needs to go? Shouldn't all three go if we truly want to be rid of EDH auto includes across all colors?
At this point the thread has devolved completely into the anecdotal evidence and repetitive arguments that we've all seen before.
So here's one more thing to think about:
If Sol Ring still cost 1 but tapped for 3, would you want it to be banned in this format? How about 5?
If you'd still want Super-Sol Ring in the format, there's not much I can say to you. Game balance is not important to you. You value unpredictability so highly that you don't mind when one player starts the game with a massive resource advantage.
Now suppose you do want to ban it. But guess what: it still doesn't fit the banning principles of Commander! Super-Sol Ring is at least as nuts in Vintage as it is in Commander.
But the card is so overpowered that you may feel compelled to step in on power level alone. So now you're arbitrarily putting a line in the sand. This line doesn't split fair cards from unfair cards. It doesn't even split broken cards from the only-somewhat-unfair.
In terms of game balance (which is key to the long term viability of a game) Sol Ring was a design mistake, like many other well known cards from early in the game. It's way over the top on power level. This has been admitted repeatedly by even those who most staunchly oppose the banning. You'd be putting a dividing line somewhere between "what were they thinking when they printed this?" and "what were they smoking when they printed this!?"
Yes, in terms of outright balance it was a mistake and it will never be in standard again, but EDH is not standard and trying to balance edh is both a monumental task and a ludicrous idea. Try to balance planechase or archenemy. Balance simply isn't the point of EDH.
I think the metric you have to use is the typical plays in the format. At 2 the mana output isn't pulling you into a T4 win against the table typically. At 5 I think you're past the point of tolerability, but then we don't need to worry about banning such cards because they will never see the light of day. Even baby WOTC was able to see anything bigger than black lotus would be too much. The principles are for banning cards, not for card design. They are just cleaning up WOTC's messes.
Seems pretty ridiculous when you put it in the correct context right?
No, you are off the mark. A T1/T2 Black Lotus is not going to blow everyone out of the game unless you are playing EDH to piss people off specifically. Cost combined with their ubiquitous utility is, without a doubt what is keeping the moxen and the lotus banned. Drop the reserve list and reprint power nine and I'm sure they would be welcome back to the format. As it is, dual lands aren't that good compared to everything else available, otherwise I think they would see the axe too.
Sol Ring and Mana Crypt should be banned outright.
A T2 Koth can get someone ultimate by T4 making sure all creatures who enter the battlefield on the opponent's side gets pinged to death. Granted it takes resources to do so, but just that makes it insane.
T1 sol ring, signet/talismen ~ T2 Bribery~Prime Time or something of that nature? Just broken.
I'd like to see the cards get banned so I can stick something else less powerful, yet fun and competitive, within their place. It's too good.
You could do so certainly, but at that point you have to realize you are casting a very wide net given this is 100 card singleton. If something that hands you 2 extra mana is that good, what about the best tutors? The point has been made already, but who tutors for a Sol Ring? By that measure the tutors themselves and the options they open up are de facto better than Sol Ring.
I'd hate to think of the laundry list of bannings that would follow Sol Ring. EDH is by definition a casual format and the variance added by the 1 ring is certainly notable, but how often is it really the deciding point in a game? How often does it actually control a games outcome? Excepting degenerate combos that end the game T4 which can be removed via the actual combo peices.
By the above logic, no card should ever be banned. To be perfectly honest sol ring is more powerful than many of the cards on the ban list. The Moxen and Black Lotus. Only because Sol Ring someone became the Marquee card for the format do people not think it should be banned.
Sol Ring is > Moxen and Lotus? I'm not going to go there, let's just say I respectfully disagree.
Lets put it this way. Take any opening hand of Seven from any deck in edh. Now randomly remove one of those cards and replace it with sol Ring. Almost universely if the card you removed wasn't the only land in the hand, you just improved your hand by a significant quantity.
You can take almost any argument about why Sol Ring shouldn't be banned and replace sol ring with Black Lotus. And it really shows how ridiculous those arguments are. It is honestly a $6 Black Lotus. And since we don't make bannings based off of Monetary reasons (if we do, we need to ban Mishra's Workshop, Bazaar of Baghdad, Mana Drain, and Imperial Seal) I can't see a good reason why Sol Ring remain unbanned.
This is a big stretch and yes, I think money does enter into it. If the advantage given by dual lands wasn't so small in EDH I would guess they would have found their way on the list too. On the other hand if the cards you listed were as universally useful as duals or moxen I can pretty much assure you they would find their way onto the list.
To conflate colorless mana and colored mana is a pretty big jump right from the start. Sol ring certainly is a good card, but it doesn't really seem to fit into the same box you see it in.
Consider the banlist for EDH to have 3 ban categories. Say 1-3 scale on order of magnitude as a rough example.
1. Price: $$$
2. Power/Utility: effect on game state of bombs/combo pieces/resources
3. Universality: how well it fits into any deck
The ban is a result of the magnitude of all 3 multiplied.
Dual Land: 3/2/1, overall score of 6
Mox: 3/2/2, overall score of 12
Sol Ring: 1/2/3, overall score of 6
Black Lotus: 3/2/3, overall score of 18
Mishra's Workshop: 3/2/1, overall score of 6
Anything above a 10 is likely due for banning. This is the best explanation for how EDH bannings work that I can come up with for general resource cards. Obviously combo pieces and broken generals are something altogether different.
*Edit* Please do not break down my numbers, they are only an example. It is not useful to tell me my system is imperfect, I know that. It's just an illustration. I don't want this to devolve into arguments about what the scale should be.
If the answer to someone playing an unfun deck is to either ask them to change decks or stop playing with them, then why isn't that the answer to every powerful card?
How do you tell the difference between "unfun enough to ask them to change decks" and "unfun enough that this card can't be allowed in the format anymore"?
I think the simple answer here is some cards are simply guilty of being the reason the deck is unfun rather than the enabler of the things that made the deck unfun. Biorhythm is a non-interactive culprit. Sol Ring is simply a chaos element, which is not inherently unfun.
Trying to keep a lid on the worst offending cards is a good focus for the banned list, trying to make EDH balanced is a fool's errand.
Anyone who can honestly support the keywords vigilance... I am sorry you fellows are deluded. Consistency is key, and having some cards (like Akroma's Devoted, Noble Templar, etc) have the Vigilance written out, but some not, is inconsistent, sloppy, and idiotic. Write it out. And for all those saying "you can't do that without the text becoming microtext"... maybe that's a sign that Vigilance , should not have came to be in the first place.
Yeah, this game has never been anything but inconsistent. It has to change to stay alive. Imagine if we still had the templating from alpha. The color dot is the simplest solution to a mechanic that was determined to be worth the risk. It will be confusing for some, but this is an expert level set and that is where you take those design risks and make things more challenging.
The most impressive part is how well they toed the line between constructed and draft/limited.
All my art back Ultra-Pro sleeves seem to be fine.
The only problem this really poses is for my EDH decks as the matte sleeves are what I stocked up on for 100 card decks, the art sleeves come 80 to a set which is not enough and buying 2 seems like overkill. I think in general my play group knows I'm not going to be using this to cheat, otherwise if it becomes an issue I'll just use the proxy card and clear sleeve the DFC's.
"The Flight of Goldnight. These angels are associated with the sun, in contrast with Avacyn herself. Once a year during the Harvest Moon season, the sun will not dip below the horizon for two full days, and during this time the moon isn't visible. Known as the Feast of Goldnight, this is the holiest day for the humans. It is the time when the Avacynian enchantments are strongest throughout Innistrad.
The Flight of Alabaster. These angels personify the Blessed Sleep and are associated with the Hunter's Moon season. They provide magic that wards against the desecration of dead humans.
The Flight of Herons. These are the angels of birth and purity and are associated with the New Moon season. Their magic is said to ward humans against harm in life (as opposed to the Alabaster host, which wards against harm in death)."
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/stf/162
We begin in the Hunter's Moon with Flight Alabaster. Next we enter the New Moon with Flight Heron. This is a good time for Sorin to show up and challenge Liliana for power over the demonic forces she commanding or seeking. In the third set we enter the Harvest Moon and Garruk and Sorin chase Liliana off the plane while the Human's are strongest.
This plane seems like it is mostly going to give us a look at the never ending cycle of moon's, with a little back story occurring between the walkers. A good break from the last set's story driven arc.
That was indeed the point. I can't see letting modern have 10 fetches available. Shocks are already in and so are enemy fetches. That seems more viable long term. Shocks make too much sense not to reprint in a return to Ravnica block.
Any allied fetch reprint will be outside of standard/modern for at least a few years.
Goyf gets a possible in with m13 only because I think the situational reprints have been testing the waters. If Goyf still seems too big for T2, we'll see him in a precon.
M13 will still just have allied M12/11/10 lands, they are just too perfect.
Allied fetches are not coming back anytime soon. I'm not sure it's healthy to have modern running with both sets of fetches. They might end up in some kind of pre-con product.
Pain lands are gone forever.
Goyf, he's gonna end up in something someday soon, though most likely in M13 or a pre-con product.
Yes, exactly. Which is why the banlist is A. optional and B. focused on removing items that tend to turn any deck into a non-interactive one.
The qualifiers for banning are very clear on the commander website. They have been reiterated over and over on this thread.
Banning decks is impossible:
Explain how one bans a deck in a non-convoluted manner please. Do you ban executing specific combos? Do you think any such rule can be enforceable? The banlist is about setting an indication of what you shouldn't try to do and since a combo piece is banned, can't do.
Balancing edh is a contradiction in terms:
The attraction is the opportunity to play big bombs that you could never run in competitive magic and a wide variety of spells that singleton brings. Balance is something you do to a competitive sport, not theater. If you play EDH with your only goal being to win as fast and hard as possible every game... you are missing the MAGIC of it. You don't buy a Lamborghini because it's the most precision drive and best acceleration, you buy it because it's bombastic and flashy and fun. You shouldn't turn a Lambo into a McClaren, they can both exist separately. Not every car needs to be a McClaren.
Moxes scare new comers due to price:
They could certainly have a home, if they were accessible. Every EDH deck could use a few. As they aren't accessible, it becomes a matter of haves and have nots. All the sudden I realize you have a Lambo and I have to use a go cart. Sure some EDH decks are spendy, but we're talking mana bases here, most EDH decks have fairly affordable ones. Can the format survive moxes now, balance wise, probably as their real impact on games is not going to be insane usually, but psychologically I doubt it could keep drawing people in as well. It takes a lot of the friendliness away.
Sol Ring is readily available and has a limited impact on game outcomes as it is only mana acceleration and while it is certainly superb, it is no channel.
Let's just end this all here and now. Audiox has summed it all up. If balanced edh is actually of interest to people... Play EDH with cards from the Modern format and use its banlist, just start playing it like a format and if anyone actually likes it then it will catch on. It won't, because that is not what EDH is about.
OP has stated the banlist is to keep spikes in line and in some ways it is, but it is to take away the crowning jewels not their power tools. The game is healthy that way and everyone gets to use those power tools we love so much.
I'm going to second this. If you cannot clearly and concisely state your arguments for points 1 and 2, I think we are all done here.
Jace was not banned because he showed up in every deck, he was banned because he made only one deck playable. If sol ring made it so every EDH deck had to be <general A build A> then you would have a point and it would be warping the format. It isn't, because no such thing is true.
Commander, as indicated by the WOTC products released this year indicate that 3 cards are pretty much auto includes in every deck.
Command Tower
Sol Ring
Lightning Greaves
The first is quite possibly the best land for EDH ever printed when considered in the average of all known decks. The seconds is a superb mana accelerator. The third gives your general staying power and an early hit.
All three warp the format by your definition. I want all three in almost any opening hand and are auto includes. All three are above the curve significantly. Why is it only Sol Ring needs to go? Shouldn't all three go if we truly want to be rid of EDH auto includes across all colors?
Yes, in terms of outright balance it was a mistake and it will never be in standard again, but EDH is not standard and trying to balance edh is both a monumental task and a ludicrous idea. Try to balance planechase or archenemy. Balance simply isn't the point of EDH.
I think the metric you have to use is the typical plays in the format. At 2 the mana output isn't pulling you into a T4 win against the table typically. At 5 I think you're past the point of tolerability, but then we don't need to worry about banning such cards because they will never see the light of day. Even baby WOTC was able to see anything bigger than black lotus would be too much. The principles are for banning cards, not for card design. They are just cleaning up WOTC's messes.
No, you are off the mark. A T1/T2 Black Lotus is not going to blow everyone out of the game unless you are playing EDH to piss people off specifically. Cost combined with their ubiquitous utility is, without a doubt what is keeping the moxen and the lotus banned. Drop the reserve list and reprint power nine and I'm sure they would be welcome back to the format. As it is, dual lands aren't that good compared to everything else available, otherwise I think they would see the axe too.
You could do so certainly, but at that point you have to realize you are casting a very wide net given this is 100 card singleton. If something that hands you 2 extra mana is that good, what about the best tutors? The point has been made already, but who tutors for a Sol Ring? By that measure the tutors themselves and the options they open up are de facto better than Sol Ring.
I'd hate to think of the laundry list of bannings that would follow Sol Ring. EDH is by definition a casual format and the variance added by the 1 ring is certainly notable, but how often is it really the deciding point in a game? How often does it actually control a games outcome? Excepting degenerate combos that end the game T4 which can be removed via the actual combo peices.
Sol Ring is > Moxen and Lotus? I'm not going to go there, let's just say I respectfully disagree.
T1/T2 maybe, but one might also argue a time stretch T1/T2 in EDH is somewhat insignificant.
Given, Sol Ring is very good.
This is a big stretch and yes, I think money does enter into it. If the advantage given by dual lands wasn't so small in EDH I would guess they would have found their way on the list too. On the other hand if the cards you listed were as universally useful as duals or moxen I can pretty much assure you they would find their way onto the list.
To conflate colorless mana and colored mana is a pretty big jump right from the start. Sol ring certainly is a good card, but it doesn't really seem to fit into the same box you see it in.
Consider the banlist for EDH to have 3 ban categories. Say 1-3 scale on order of magnitude as a rough example.
1. Price: $$$
2. Power/Utility: effect on game state of bombs/combo pieces/resources
3. Universality: how well it fits into any deck
The ban is a result of the magnitude of all 3 multiplied.
Dual Land: 3/2/1, overall score of 6
Mox: 3/2/2, overall score of 12
Sol Ring: 1/2/3, overall score of 6
Black Lotus: 3/2/3, overall score of 18
Mishra's Workshop: 3/2/1, overall score of 6
Anything above a 10 is likely due for banning. This is the best explanation for how EDH bannings work that I can come up with for general resource cards. Obviously combo pieces and broken generals are something altogether different.
*Edit* Please do not break down my numbers, they are only an example. It is not useful to tell me my system is imperfect, I know that. It's just an illustration. I don't want this to devolve into arguments about what the scale should be.
I think the simple answer here is some cards are simply guilty of being the reason the deck is unfun rather than the enabler of the things that made the deck unfun. Biorhythm is a non-interactive culprit. Sol Ring is simply a chaos element, which is not inherently unfun.
Trying to keep a lid on the worst offending cards is a good focus for the banned list, trying to make EDH balanced is a fool's errand.
Yeah, this game has never been anything but inconsistent. It has to change to stay alive. Imagine if we still had the templating from alpha. The color dot is the simplest solution to a mechanic that was determined to be worth the risk. It will be confusing for some, but this is an expert level set and that is where you take those design risks and make things more challenging.