MTG Salvation

Hello. I want to offer my ten cents and perspective on Legacy without dual lands.

I used to own a full playset plus of the duals. When the price began to rise to insane levels and I hit some financial hard times, I sold all of them all.

Locally, a Legacy game night is the I only Magic night that works for me, so I built my old decks without duals and have been playing successfully and competitively with a combination of basics, fetch lands, shocks, and M10 tap lands.

I will concede on the optimization argument that with duals legacy is better, but only slightly and in very specific situations. but legacy can be played competitively and successfully without duals.

Some decks will be off limits, namely Delver and Zoo (though I think Zoo is out of vogue, currently).

Decks that can be successfully built and played without duals include Merfolk, Reanimator (U and R variants), MUD, Eldrazi, Miracles, High Tide, RDW, and Stone/Death blade. I am going to begin experimenting with Maverick soon.

I write all of this to encourage current and would be legacy players to look at this as an ACCESSIBLE format (not the inaccessible format that so many believe it to be) with decks that can be built at many different price points and in many different playstyles.

So I contacted a local store that allows full proxies for their Legacy tournaments to get the scoop. This particular stores requires that proxies be printed and in color- no black and white prints or a plains card with "Jace the Mind Sculptor" written on it won't work. I haven't played at this particular shop yet, but I plan on it soon.

This interaction got me to thinking..... What do shops and players stand to benefit by allowing proxies (fake cards) in tournaments?

From a player perspective, it allows more people to enter the tournament and because more people can enter the prize payout will be larger. Also, from a player perspective there are no limitations to deckbuilding.

From a store's perspective, I would argue that a store will benefit from allowing proxies. To begin, by allowing proxy Legacy tournaments, stores would most likely sell more Legacy staples and Legacy cards. Sure, a player could go out and just proxy an entire deck, but from my experience the use of proxies (fake cards) would be used when price or scarcity are too prohibitive in acquiring the needed/desired cards. So while a player might be prone to proxy a Jace, Liliana, Dual land, or Tarmogoyf in a Legacy deck, the more reasonably priced cards they would likely desire to have the real thing. It is, afterall, called cardboard crack. Also, by hosting proxy Legal tournaments, the general interest and participation in the format will grow. Stronger player bases would likely be created and everyday MTG sales would increase at the store that allows proxies versus the one that doesn't- in my experience the better a store does with it's tournament scene, the better they do with card sales as well. Also, many players (younger players especially) would likely be prone to proxy expensive and hard to find cards when they are outside of their reach, however as they age and their disposable income goes up the likelihood that they will wind up buying those rare and expensive cards increases.

So by allowing fake cards, in my theory, both the players win and the stores win. More players, bigger winner payouts, and unlimited deck building options for players. Increased card sales and a larger and more dedicated group of players for stores.

The only problem with the high quality proxies and fakes being produced in China, people's homes, and elsewhere is the threat that they pose to collections values. As it stands now, even the best "proxies" that I have seen (the ones that will slide by everyone when sleeved) are easy to detect outside of sleeves.

I have dug further and further into the proxy situation and I have come to understand that StarcityGames used to run Vintage tournaments that they allowed proxies in. From what I can gather, that was the event that (to some extent) legitimized proxies in the Vintage community and which is now making it's way to the Legacy community.

My interest is in the game of Magic. I used to be interested in the value of my collection, but that interest has basically become extinct over the last year. I am coming into contact with more and more proxies and "fake cards" from China and elsewhere that are just amazing. Some of these feature digitally altered cards. Some are printouts of the online Magic Power 9 and Dual Lands which are foiled and have alternate art so that no one will think they are real. Some are Chinese proxies that look nearly identical to the real thing (minus the texture of the card or sometimes having colors that are slightly off). In the end, I don't care if someone is playing with real cards, proxies, or fakes. I do not buy or trade with individuals. My interest is solely on the game. If a 15 year old kid can't afford a Legacy or Vintage deck, but can come up with a nice mix of cool looking proxies and real cards mixed together. Cool, let's play Magic. If a 40 year old doesn't want to play with his real dual lands because the price has skyrocketed, but he will play with some Chinese proxies that look legit. Cool, let's play Magic.

In the end, for me, this is about a game. A game I want to play. I don't want to be restricted by a cards rarity, scarcity, or value. I don't want to be restricted by the horrible No Reprint List- a list that did nothing but stifle the game and put a severe handicap on both Vintage and Legacy as formats.

For me, it's just about the game.

I would be the first to stand up and say that attempting to sell fake cards as the real thing is wrong, but if someone wants to play with those cool looking fake cards even in a sanctioned tournament (hey, it might be against WOTC's rules, but they have no idea what is being played at the tournaments! All they get is a computer data entry showing who played and who won and lost. The validity of the cards in the decks is beyond their scope of information.), I'm 100% cool. If someone beats me playing with fake cards, then they were the better player, had better luck, or perhaps just a better matchup that I or my deck had.

It's a matter of preference, I suppose, but ultimately, especially in the coming years, I think that players will want to play with proxies and fakes more and more (especially in lieu of escalating prices and the scarcity of some cards) and I think that the stores that allow proxies in their tournaments will see larger turnouts, larger and more dedicated player bases, and increased sales of real Magic cards.

I posted a question a week or so ago regarding deck checks at high level tournaments (inquiry what judges check on when doing a deck check) a week or two ago. I posted that question after encountering some incredibly high quality "proxies" from China. I have now encountered even more of these "proxies" over the past week. The quality of the "proxies" is incredibly high and the only distinguishing feature between them and real cards is that the cards have a glossier finish to them and some (not all, SOME) of the cards show variations in color. In sleeves, however, the cards are indistinguishable from the real thing. They are so nice that some "proxies" were sleeved and mixed in with a deck, the deck was given to me to peruse (in the sleeves), and I was unable to distinguish the real cards from the "proxies". This coupled with watching some videos on YouTube of people making actual proxies (nothing that would ever pass for the real thing, not because the quality is bad, but because the art is different) got me to thinking the following....

There are people at home all across the world that can make their own Magic "proxies". You can easily buy "proxies" from China. These "proxies", especially when sleeved, are nearly identical to the real thing. At some point someone is going to perfect the art and real cards will be absolutely indistinguishable from "proxies". However, in the meantime, I have come to believe 100% that there are fakes, "proxies", and forgeries of one stripe or another being played with at FNMs, at local Legacy and Modern tournies, at SCG and other higher level events, and likely even on the Pro Tour.

How often have you shown up to an FNM on the day of a release only to find that one of your opponents already has every single copy in their deck of some highly sought after Mythic Rare from the new set? There is a finite number of real, old school dual lands, but how is it that more and more people are showing up to play Legacy with all the required duals and everything else necessary to play?

I have come to believe that fake cards are everywhere. They might not be traded and sold en masse yet, because the technology isn't quite there (at least of the ones that I've known have been proxies), but in sleeves where they are virtually indecipherable from the real thing?

So what do you think? Have you ever encountered someone in a tournament that you believe or suspect was playing with fakes? Has anyone ever been busted? How often have you had a deck check performed against you? Anyone care to admit ever having played with known fakes? Have you ever played or owned a card that you believed to be real and only later realized (perhaps when trading it or selling it to someone) that it was a fake?

In all my years of playing Magic I have only been deck checked one time. In the past I have played with (in black backed sleeves) Collector's and International Edition cards whose corners had been rounded- they weren't rebacked, they still had the gold CE/IE borders, but with the black sleeves no one had a clue. This was in a low level local tournament.

Every Vintage Magic tournament that I am aware of currently allows proxy cards. Proxies are used regularly and knowingly in EDH/Commander, 5-Color, and some of the other "casual", alternate formats. I know of local Legacy scenes that have now jumped on board and allow unlimited proxies.

In my view, WOTC has specifically facilitated this problem with the Reserved List, but we are now seeing cards that are not on the reserved list "proxied". Everything from Tarmogoyf and Jace the Mind Sculptor to Splinter Twin and Ugin the Spirit Dragon and all Mythics and Rares and a lot of uncommons and commons in between.

If a card reaches a high price, why wouldn't one look for a cheaper option?


What is more important? The game or one's collection value?

And I will leave you with one more thought....

If the "fake" is as good as the real thing... Is it really a "fake"?

I do believe there are many counterfeits being played at tournaments because once they are sleeved up it's hard to tell. I have never played in a tournament were a judge pulled my deck apart and check my cards with a loop and black light. It would be to time consuming for judges to have to deck check every player in a big tourney. Top 8 may work but what about FNM events? I would have to put my trust in a low level judges hands. Counterfeits are really bad for the game but it's up to Hasbro to put a end to it. I don't buy high end cards anymore because of the fear of getting fakes. I have also sold off my high end stuff because I do believe that counterfeits will hurt the secondary market if not put to a end.

The one thing wizards could do is devalue the cards to a point were counterfeits cards aren't as profitable. Wizards should do a vintage version of Modern Masters with different art work so the originals would hold value. It would be a cash boon for wizards and grow the vintage player base at the same time. At 20 dollars a pack LGS's would make out like a bandit.

Quote from MaximumC »

Why do you (and others, not just you) keep using the terms for proxies and fake or counterfeit cards interchangeably? I'm genuinely curious about this. It seems like there's a strong reluctance on the part of many people in this thread to acknowledge the difference between an obvious proxy and a counterfeit that tries to pass for real.

I think this is really a very important distinction we have to make. Proxies are obvious fakes while counterfeits are intended to pass itself off as real. Proxies are like monopoly money. Its only use is in-game and no one will exchange or offer to exchange real currency for it. Fake bills which are intended to be circulated in the general economy are counterfeits.

The mock up card you made at home is a proxy. The high quality Chinese knockoffs you paid money for are counterfeits.

Quote from ForceOfTheDragon »

(Fakes) might not be traded and sold en masse yet, because the technology isn't quite there...

The tech is up to the task. Has been for quite some years.
It would be the bad fakes that a regular fella like you and I could tell. The good fakes we wouldn't be able to, as the good fakes would be using the proper materials to get the job done just right.
Thing is, this is a niche hobby, I'm sure organized crime has better things to make money from. The only people who would consider this kind of scam are people who know how to print this stuff.
Remember too, that magic cards do differ a bit, they're not all exactly the same. I've got a playset of Narcomoeba's that are all slightly different.

Quote from Ebonclaw »

If you can make fakes on that level, why would you be inclined to sell them for pennies on the dollar though? And if they're still expensive, then what's the benefit to making fakes?

Well you wouldn't. You'd trade them, sell them whatever at a *good deal* price so you can sell them quickly, without making it look like stolen merch.


I honestly don't care if my opponent had a Force of Will that was a yellow piece of paper with FORCE hand-written on it.
As long as their deck abides by the typical deck-building rules I'm happy to game on, win or lose.

For the record, deck checks are not executed for authenticity's sake in mind, though I feel that if it becomes a problem, deckchecking a few cards in top 8 competitors for authenticity is not a bad proposal. Deck checks are implemented to ensure that the decklist a player registered is what the player is playing within an event.
I have no issues at all if someone wants to use a "medium grade" proxy. When I made a proxy for my Tabernacle, I intentionally avoided making it as accurate as possible because if there's one thing I don't want it's people thinking is that I would ever have the intention or capability of passing it off as the real thing that stays safely in my binder. Trying to make proxies as identical as possible is a dangerous road to be walking down, even if you have nothing but honest intentions. If I ever meet a new player at the shop, and they had some high quality proxies, I would make a mental note to probably just no do business with them unless I have my loupe on hand.

I recently encountered a player at a local FNM who had a counterfeit playset of Tarmogoyfs in his deck. He had received these from an online retailer (I don't know which one, nor do I know if it was from ebay). When he received them, he knew they were fakes and was refunded his money for his purchase. He is a long time member of our local community and has played in many events here. On this particular day, he had the fakes in place of his real ones (his real ones were in another deck) and forgot to take them out and replace them with the real cards. He called the judge on himself when he discovered this. Unfortunately, because the FNM had already fired, he was DQ'd from the event, and was reported to the DCI. He was given an opportunity to write a letter to the DCI explaining the situation, but I have not seen him at the shop since.

Quote from ForceOfTheDragon »

So what do you think? Have you ever encountered someone in a tournament that you believe or suspect was playing with fakes? Has anyone ever been busted? How often have you had a deck check performed against you? Anyone care to admit ever having played with known fakes? Have you ever played or owned a card that you believed to be real and only later realized (perhaps when trading it or selling it to someone) that it was a fake?

I've been deck-checked a couple times, but I suspect the judge is just verifying my list. Most of my high end cards are bought online, and I suspect Card Kingdom is not selling me fake duals! But I've bought a few high end cards locally, so you never know I guess.

As for your first question, I don't care in the slightest! Using quality fakes does not give my opponent any advantage above and beyond playing with the actual cards. Why should I care? As long as my LGS is making enough money to stay open, I am happy. In fact, the player with fakes might be indirectly helping the LGS by bolstering the Legacy scene!

Like you say, you can tell up close, so I'm not going to be sucked into trading real cards for these. It blows my mind that nobody has successfully reverse engineered magic cards. The "state of the art" printing technology is over twenty years old! Why nobody can yet replicate these with precision boggles my mind.

Quote from ForceOfTheDragon »

Tossing a couple cards out for discussion that I think would be interesting to see legalized in Legacy-- or at the very least given a trial run.

1. Mishra's Workshop. This card has only one deck that it can realistically go in-- MUD. MUD is a fringe deck that occasionally posts good results. The deck is fringe with lands that produce two mana and a number of other mana producers (ie Mox Opal, Grim Monolith). Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see Mishra's Workshop being legalized breaking or warping the format. If anything, legalizing Mishra's Workshop will just open up MUD to be a bit more legit contender.

Ignoring the immediate problem in unbanning a card that's already over $500 and is on the Reserved List, Mishra's Workshop doesn't open up MUD to be a bit more legit contender, it opens it up to becoming the best deck in the format... by a significant margin, no less.

Do you think Black Lotus is an overpowered card? How about a Black Lotus that doesn't sacrifice itself and can be used repeatedly? Because that's what Mishra's Workshop gives you. Even when you're not living the dream of turn 1 Trinisphere (which effectively wins you the game on the spot), you're able to more consistently get Chalice of the Void at 1 on the first turn or Lodestone Golem on the second. Because that's what happens when you get access to a repeatable Black Lotus in addition to your 2 Sol lands. It's like playing against Belcher in how invaluable disruption like Force of Will is to stop the opponent from essentially winning the game on the first turn or two, but unlike Belcher, the deck just shrugs after getting that turn 1-2 bomb countered and goes on its merry way and beats you anyway with its next bomb.

2. Sol Ring. Legacy, by and large, relies on spells that cost three or less and many of the spells are a bit color intensive and require at least two mana of a specific color to be used to cast it (ie Liliana of the Veil, Baleful Strix, True Name Nemesis). Like Workshop above, I don't see Sol Ring being legalized as a format warping card. It would be great in a MUD deck, but beyond that where would it fit or warp the format?

Interested to read what others think about those two cards. Again, I don't think either would warp or severely alter the format, but they could both make MUD a bit less fringe and more of a competitive deck.

MUD would already be the best deck in the format by a long shot with just Mishra's Workshop; exactly why it would need to be even better is unclear. Anyway, Sol Ring is an inherently warping card because of its simple ability to produce more mana than it cost to make and able to do so immediately and repeatedly (at least Dark Ritual is one-shot). Every deck is going to be running that card, and if you're not running it, then your deck isn't good.

Quote from ForceOfTheDragon »

Quote from Tanro »

I've seen a few people who had to put basic lands into their deck because they had REALLY BAD FORGERIES

....

So does that mean that good or high quality forgeries are legal?

No. It means they are harder to distinguish. I've never seen a judge do a bend or light test. I have observed one using a jeweler's loupe to inspect a card. It passed.

What I am saying, is the high quality chinese forgeries are not as widespread as hyped. We had 2 domri rades with poker card texture on the back come through a few months ago. But you could tell them apart as soon as they were unsleeved. Never had any really high quality forgeries beyond that in my store in the past 5 years.

As long as the proxies are good. If a card looks the same and plays the same as the real thing what does it matter to the game, there's no difference. All i care about is if people can play the game. That said I like real cards.

magiccards.info



If you arent using pretty ones like this, then no. No proxies. That being said I have printed plenty of decks off of that site and they are wonderful for casual, playtesting, and getting new people into the mtg/legacy scene. I introduced so many people to magic with The Gate its not even funny.