Whent 3-1 at the tournament. Ended up loosing to zoo.
Game 1: I fizzled charbelcher for 6 damage. Then couldnt get another activation.
Game 2: He played a turn 2 gaddock teeg which shut me out.
What do you guys do about teeg?
Burning wish -> Pyroclasm (Or deathmark if you're running 2 land). It's suboptimal, especially since we run like 5/6 permanent mana sources, but it's all we got.
Seems to, err, suck. At least in belcher, and I'm not really seeing it anywhere else. Maybe affinity in place of Springleaf Drum? It's legendary though, which sucks.
What's everyone's thoughts on Deathmark in sb instead of Perish? Costs a ton less mana and is useful against a broader range of decks? From what I understand, Perish is mostly there for Progenitus, but you don't see many of such decks around.
Well for one thing in sweeps the average bant deck's field, which is fairly relevant lately. Also, not seeing progenitus is a meta thing. Sometime in my meta a quarter of the decks will be running him, sometimes none.
Also, it's generally card advantage, where deathmark will always be 1 for 1 (not including FoW shens). They fill different roles.
Now explain more about order of spells...you mean when I'm playing my accelerates or ? Example would help some too...
Also, the discarding of a spell for mana wouldn't count as a spell for storm correct?
It's kinda hard to give an example since there's so many possibilities but...
-If possible, keep spirit guides in hand until the last moment (this will help against Orim's Chant too).
-Lay out 0cc artifacts (especially Lotus Petal and Moxen with imprints) before playing rituals.
-Try to stay one mana ahead for what you're playing if possible (ie play Desperate Ritual when you have 3 in your mana pool, Seething Song when you have 4, etc.
As for your other question, I'm assuming you're talking about Spirit Guides? Correct, they don't add to storm.
I'm not too much help when it comes to sideboarding, if someone else could comment on that it'd be good.
Im going to my first legacy tournament this weekend, and decided to sleeve up Belcher!
Ill post list and what not at another time and try to report back sunday sometime!
Any tips or other thoughts towards this?
Don't keep a hand without a win condition. The only exception would be something like if you're playing against slow blue and your opening 7 have good mana and a couple Pyroblasts.
Don't keep something where you need 2 more mana to start. Something like if your mana producers are desperate ritual, seething song, seething song. Or Lotus Petal/Land/Land Grant/Mox/Spirit Guide, Seething song, LED. The reason for this is that you're going to need to draw no less that 2 cards to go off and often more, cause of colour issues or not the correct accelerants or whatever.
Make sure you know what order you should play stuff in when playing against Daze/Spell Pierce as well.
I forget Djinn costs 4 as well, the old printing makes it look like it costed 2, now if it costed 2 that WOULD be good. Stupidly good in fact. They'd never print that.
They did actually, and it costs 1G. It's called Tarmogoyf.
Tombstalker seems weak, you don't have much going to your grave. I think bitterblossom and manlands (and crucible) would be much better, as well as utility creatures (Shriekmaw, Fulminator Mage). I still think Dark Ritual is good, even though it sucks late game. Some land destruction spells would be good too. Wasteland is good too, especially with Crucible
Hey I'd like to bring up Path to Exile quickly. I know a guy who runs it in his Affinity deck (main) and it really seems to give it quite an edge. The ability dump his hand, turn all dude into huge threats (Cranial Plating), and refill hand a bit (Thoughtcast) makes the deck pretty nutty, then to have the ability to disrupt an opponent's field made it pretty scary. I've played against plenty of Affinity (don't actually play it myself) and the one with PtE definitely seemed like it had an edge on the others.
Just my opinion, hopefully it'll provide some food for thought.
I know that putting SDT on top doesn't save Lich...but again: how big is the chance that your opponent is able to Grip/Vindicate/Ring/Pridemage your SDT immediatly when Lich suddenly joins the battlefield? Wouldn't you play Lich after disruption/discard in the first place? I'd just keep him in my hands untill I've let them discard stuff or removed Qasali, whether with Gatekeeper, Goyf, Stalker, a blocking Nighthawk or Pulse, Smother).
Fair enough, I suppose I didn't fully think through the timing of playing it. But at that point, if you have the game under control/dealt with any cards that are answers, aren't Goyf and Stalker as good/better? Goyf might be a bit smaller sometimes, but easier and cheaper to cast, and Stalker will probably cost about the same and have the same P/T, but fly over the chump blockers. Plus, the only thing that stalker dies to that Lich doesn't (not counting things like royal assassin) is Terminate.
Although if you were going to use it, I agree that the deck shouldn't totally be built around it, just slightly built to accommodate it.
Do you know that it's really hard to get rid of SDT?
Quote from Phylactery Lich »
When you control no permanents with phylactery counters on them, sacrifice Phylactery Lich.
Putting SDT on top does not save Lich. It gets rid of him. In fact it'd be the worst artifact to put the counter on, seeing as there are many situations where you want to save SDT by putting it on top (Quasali Pridemage, Pulse, Vindicate, O-Ring), and to do that you'd have to sac the Lich. Normally they wouldn't try to use any of those on SDT unless they're just having a slow day, but if it has a counter on it, they know they're getting rid of the Lich for sure, whether you let SDT die or put it on top (which I'd recommend).
(talking about removing SDT) Seems like a wasted play as well.
So, assuming I understand what you're saying, you're saying it'd be a waste to use a Krosan Grip on an SDT? SDT is ridiculously powerful, especially combined with ~7 fetches, it'd hardly be a waste.
So that being said, what can I do to this badboy to bring it to a place it needs to be to compete?
Personally, I don't think this can happen, for a few reasons:
Swords to Plowshares/Path the Exile
Quasali Pridemage (or other things that can destroy artifacts, ie Vindicate and O-Ring and such)
MD bouce
Edict effects
Almost all decks in the format right now have at least one of these, or don't care about it (Lands, combo, stax, etc.). Thus, I don't really think it's worth it to build the deck around a slightly awkward creature if it's not a total bomb. No doubt, I'm sure it'll be a pain in certain games, but I don't really find it to be worth the slots if the deck has to change to accommodate it.
That being said, if you're set on using the Lich, I liked nightmaster's list. Darksteel Citadel looks kinda awkward with so much BB and BBB, and with Nantuko Shade, so I might personally bump Urborg up to 3. Despite it being legendary, there's a lot of wasteland running around and drawing more than one probably won't be bad all the time.
I have a question. I do not play this deck, but I was intrigued by the deck. Everyone seems to be of the opinion that it folds to control decks/FoW/Daze etc. What about running Pact of Negation in the 75? You are going to win when you go off, so you will never see the next upkeep.
Thing is, Empty the Warrens doesn't win right then, it generally wins two turns later. For this reason, Pyroblast is better. Generally against FoW, you can afford to wait a turn or two until you have the mana to go off +1 extra red for Pryoblast. In the two land version Duress can work fairly well too. Engineered Explosives/Wrath of Gods/Echoing Truths make things tougher, but the deck is based a lot on if they have an answer of now, not much you can do.
tl;dr - Pact is really only good if you're going far a Goblin Charbelcher win, which is only 4/11 of our business spells (Belcher, Wish, EtW)
On the UW build, have you thought of Harm's Way in the board? I know a guy who plays UW Merfolk and he absolutely love it in the board for the zoo match-up. If you get a chance, I'd really advise you to at least try it out in a few game vs. zoo. Swords already makes the match-up better (which I've heard is fairly dismal), but he's said Harm's Way really just frustrates the crap out of zoo players.
Is it true that Zoo is one of your worst match-ups? No personal experience with the deck, but I hope to build it at some point.
As for Street Wraith: I used to use that card, but When I realize it's making mulligan decision much harder to make right. It may be a mana source or needless wincondition, So I desided to cut them for more mana
I agree with this. I do run them, just cause I lack a full set of Chrome Moxen and and LEDs, but they're definitely what I board out first. Usually what me do is keep a hand where I need one or two more mana to combo off, or something like that. They'll probably get cut down the road as I get the rest of the pieces.
Pretty budget. Here's a hand I just got on TCGPlayer (so it's totally random
Lotus Petal
Tinder Wall x2
Rite of Flame
Seething Song
Manamorphose
Empty the Warrens
14 gobbos turn 1 is far from a God hand. I had to pass up quite a few T1/T2 Belcher kills while looking for an EtW hand and my list is sub par, lacking 2 Chrome Mox and all 4 LEDs. I consider a God hand to be a T1 Tendrils of Agony kill. Basically your whole hand has to be spells, two of which are Manamorphose, one of which is a Burning Wish, and it can make 6 mana. I've done it once, and it was in testing.
Was just wondering if anyone thinks with the current updates to the B/R list if:
1. Belcher is now one of if not they best combos in legacy
2. Grim Monolith will find a home in the deck list
Was just wondering cause I've been looking to sell my non-decked legacy stuff but with the banning of Mystical Tutor I have to look elsewhere. The last thing I want to do is sell my taiga, bayou, and LEDs that I'd need for a potential viable deck that I have built.
Belcher is one of the most random combo decks out there. Generally running Chrome Moxen, a Taiga, and in some lists Bayou as its only permanent mana sources, it's much harder to sit and disrupt your opponent and sculpt your hand. TES and ANT can sit there and Duress, Thoughtseize, Brainstorm, Ponder, Top and shuffle until they're ready to go off. Belcher most just tries to make a bunch of Gobbos T1 or Belches for >20 in their first couple turns and hope your opponent doesn't have an answer. Nonetheless, Belcher is a really good deck that can win on turn one without breaking a sweat. I play it myself and it's a blast. Last time I played it, which was last week, I went 4-0 using 1 Chrome Mox, 0 LEDs, and shock lands.
I'd keep the lands and LEDs, and build 1-Land Belcher. I think R/G is more consistent than RGB, with the same amount of potential explosiveness. It's a super sick deck and it can absolutely wreck house. Basically - go build yourself some Belcher and kick some ass
Burning wish -> Pyroclasm (Or deathmark if you're running 2 land). It's suboptimal, especially since we run like 5/6 permanent mana sources, but it's all we got.
Seems to, err, suck. At least in belcher, and I'm not really seeing it anywhere else. Maybe affinity in place of Springleaf Drum? It's legendary though, which sucks.
Well for one thing in sweeps the average bant deck's field, which is fairly relevant lately. Also, not seeing progenitus is a meta thing. Sometime in my meta a quarter of the decks will be running him, sometimes none.
Also, it's generally card advantage, where deathmark will always be 1 for 1 (not including FoW shens). They fill different roles.
It's kinda hard to give an example since there's so many possibilities but...
-If possible, keep spirit guides in hand until the last moment (this will help against Orim's Chant too).
-Lay out 0cc artifacts (especially Lotus Petal and Moxen with imprints) before playing rituals.
-Try to stay one mana ahead for what you're playing if possible (ie play Desperate Ritual when you have 3 in your mana pool, Seething Song when you have 4, etc.
As for your other question, I'm assuming you're talking about Spirit Guides? Correct, they don't add to storm.
I'm not too much help when it comes to sideboarding, if someone else could comment on that it'd be good.
Don't keep a hand without a win condition. The only exception would be something like if you're playing against slow blue and your opening 7 have good mana and a couple Pyroblasts.
Don't keep something where you need 2 more mana to start. Something like if your mana producers are desperate ritual, seething song, seething song. Or Lotus Petal/Land/Land Grant/Mox/Spirit Guide, Seething song, LED. The reason for this is that you're going to need to draw no less that 2 cards to go off and often more, cause of colour issues or not the correct accelerants or whatever.
Make sure you know what order you should play stuff in when playing against Daze/Spell Pierce as well.
They did actually, and it costs 1G. It's called Tarmogoyf.
Tombstalker seems weak, you don't have much going to your grave. I think bitterblossom and manlands (and crucible) would be much better, as well as utility creatures (Shriekmaw, Fulminator Mage). I still think Dark Ritual is good, even though it sucks late game. Some land destruction spells would be good too. Wasteland is good too, especially with Crucible
Just my opinion, hopefully it'll provide some food for thought.
Fair enough, I suppose I didn't fully think through the timing of playing it. But at that point, if you have the game under control/dealt with any cards that are answers, aren't Goyf and Stalker as good/better? Goyf might be a bit smaller sometimes, but easier and cheaper to cast, and Stalker will probably cost about the same and have the same P/T, but fly over the chump blockers. Plus, the only thing that stalker dies to that Lich doesn't (not counting things like royal assassin) is Terminate.
Although if you were going to use it, I agree that the deck shouldn't totally be built around it, just slightly built to accommodate it.
Putting SDT on top does not save Lich. It gets rid of him. In fact it'd be the worst artifact to put the counter on, seeing as there are many situations where you want to save SDT by putting it on top (Quasali Pridemage, Pulse, Vindicate, O-Ring), and to do that you'd have to sac the Lich. Normally they wouldn't try to use any of those on SDT unless they're just having a slow day, but if it has a counter on it, they know they're getting rid of the Lich for sure, whether you let SDT die or put it on top (which I'd recommend).
So, assuming I understand what you're saying, you're saying it'd be a waste to use a Krosan Grip on an SDT? SDT is ridiculously powerful, especially combined with ~7 fetches, it'd hardly be a waste.
Personally, I don't think this can happen, for a few reasons:
Almost all decks in the format right now have at least one of these, or don't care about it (Lands, combo, stax, etc.). Thus, I don't really think it's worth it to build the deck around a slightly awkward creature if it's not a total bomb. No doubt, I'm sure it'll be a pain in certain games, but I don't really find it to be worth the slots if the deck has to change to accommodate it.
That being said, if you're set on using the Lich, I liked nightmaster's list. Darksteel Citadel looks kinda awkward with so much BB and BBB, and with Nantuko Shade, so I might personally bump Urborg up to 3. Despite it being legendary, there's a lot of wasteland running around and drawing more than one probably won't be bad all the time.
Thing is, Empty the Warrens doesn't win right then, it generally wins two turns later. For this reason, Pyroblast is better. Generally against FoW, you can afford to wait a turn or two until you have the mana to go off +1 extra red for Pryoblast. In the two land version Duress can work fairly well too. Engineered Explosives/Wrath of Gods/Echoing Truths make things tougher, but the deck is based a lot on if they have an answer of now, not much you can do.
tl;dr - Pact is really only good if you're going far a Goblin Charbelcher win, which is only 4/11 of our business spells (Belcher, Wish, EtW)
Is it true that Zoo is one of your worst match-ups? No personal experience with the deck, but I hope to build it at some point.
Usually people just say something like "Burning wish and in response sac Lion's Eye Diamond."
EDIT:
I agree with this. I do run them, just cause I lack a full set of Chrome Moxen and and LEDs, but they're definitely what I board out first. Usually what me do is keep a hand where I need one or two more mana to combo off, or something like that. They'll probably get cut down the road as I get the rest of the pieces.
Here's the list I use (as of July 1st):
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
4 Tinder Wall
2 Wild Cantor
2 Chrome Mox
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Grim Monolith
4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Manamorphose
4 Rite of Flame
4 Seething Song
Pretty budget. Here's a hand I just got on TCGPlayer (so it's totally random
Lotus Petal
Tinder Wall x2
Rite of Flame
Seething Song
Manamorphose
Empty the Warrens
14 gobbos turn 1 is far from a God hand. I had to pass up quite a few T1/T2 Belcher kills while looking for an EtW hand
Belcher is one of the most random combo decks out there. Generally running Chrome Moxen, a Taiga, and in some lists Bayou as its only permanent mana sources, it's much harder to sit and disrupt your opponent and sculpt your hand. TES and ANT can sit there and Duress, Thoughtseize, Brainstorm, Ponder, Top and shuffle until they're ready to go off. Belcher most just tries to make a bunch of Gobbos T1 or Belches for >20 in their first couple turns and hope your opponent doesn't have an answer. Nonetheless, Belcher is a really good deck that can win on turn one without breaking a sweat. I play it myself and it's a blast. Last time I played it, which was last week, I went 4-0 using 1 Chrome Mox, 0 LEDs, and shock lands.
I'd keep the lands and LEDs, and build 1-Land Belcher. I think R/G is more consistent than RGB, with the same amount of potential explosiveness. It's a super sick deck and it can absolutely wreck house. Basically - go build yourself some Belcher and kick some ass