EDIT: something to consider about Jace, Memory Adept: if your opponent happens to have Volrath's Stronghold or a Zenith you can't counter, suddenly your finisher doesn't win you the game anymore (it happened in our latest draft).
I saw Jace's Ingenuity in the pictures but failed to check the list itself, sorry. Discussion about Withdraw seems interesting, how often would you say you bounce one of your own creatures? And how often do you bounce two of theirs?
Well Treachery and Bribery are both on deck to come back in if test cards like Invisible Stalker don't work out and/or I become unhappy with the performance of another card. But Control Magic simply hasn't worked out very well for us. We found it really great against bigger creatures such as Meloku or Kokusho for example. Not only does it trade up on mana in those scenarios, but those creatures are more likely to be untapped than cheaper creatures when you want to steal them. Also in those situations it presents them with a "question" that they then have to provide an "answer" for. Often, in the case of things like Grave Titan, there simply isn't a readily available answer.
However, with the nature of this cube being very tempo oriented atm, setting up a good Control Magic isn't all that easy. There are very few bomb targets, so not only does it often steal a weenie, but a lot of the time that weenie is tapped and has already provided an ETB effect. On the other hand, Sower and Shackles have been excellent cards and as I mentioned, Treachery is the next card in line to come back in. I also considered Threads of Disloyalty at one point but decided against it.
I like almost all of your changes expect for Azure Mage and RSZ. I thought Azure Mage was really overrated even in M12 draft and I think being able to get card advantage off of Fireball is more important than potentially re-drawing Zenith. I also think Call of the Her d is better than Ohran Viper. Viper was really mediocre for us and I think the two threats that Call provides is more useful overall.
Wondering why you're not running Brimstone Volley or Reckless Charge. Seems like both would be pretty decent in your creature-heavy cube.
We tested both of them and neither was very good. Reckless Waif only flipped once or twice in the three months that its been in the cube; so it had to go. And I don't really like the 3-mana burn spells because they are very inefficient against a lot of creatures. The morbid was about 25/75. Overall, even though I hate Char, it's more consistent than Volley and I think I like Rhystic Lightning better as well.
Also, what section of the cube are you most satisfied with at this point, and why?
I think the red section. There isn't much I'm unhappy with in that section and it's the section that receives the least amount of experimental changes and additions. The only thing that I want to see in upcoming sets is a few more solid creatures like Stormblood Berserker and Stromkirk Noble.
*Edit: Oh I read it as Reckless Waif. Reckless Charge is something that I've actually been wanting to try out. I could see potentially swapping Rift Bolt out in order to test it. But is it really better than a burn spell?
So here it is, finally. I was really interested in seeing your list because of your comments. From a first glance, I like it. There are certainly some interesting choices (and maybe even more interesting omissions), but that was to be expected!
It seems black does not follow your rule of not playing six mana creatures. I can see how Grave Titan easily justifies that, but why Kokusho? Is it for the combo potential?
Kokusho is basically in there for combo potential with Recurring Nightmare which i'm fine with for right now since black is the weakest color in our cube right now. I'm playing around with black's configuration to see what is most effective which is why there is so many "free spells" atm. I really want to see how effective they are and how willing people are to play them. Snuff Out has always been an all-star and we like Slaughter Pact more than Doom Blade since it allows you to curve out and remove their creature and also creates some interesting surprise moments.
I am so glad your cube actually exists!!! It looks like fun to draft but I would totally be out of my comfort zone. That isn't really a bad thing though. Does Trinket Mage do well with only 18 targets?
I would like a couple more acceptable targets for him but he's a nice card for the blue artifact based deck since grabbing a simple Mox is more than acceptable and grabbing Top and Pithing Needle is also pretty good. I've even splashed him in aggro in order to grab Skullclamp.
I prefer Repeal to Into the Roil as well. Repeal is very insane against aggro decks and fair against other decks; Into the Roil is simply fair all the time.
Ya Geist is insane; it really keeps decks honest. And sometimes they just don't have an answer for it but even if they do most decks can't afford to take two hits from it. It's best when you have a good amount of bounce and removal. I think you should test it and although I know you love Absorb, I think Venser is a more interesting card and adds more strategies to the cube whereas Absorb is simply a solid counterspell that can be replaced by similar cards.
Wow. After all your harsh negative attitude towards to many great cube cards, I was expecting your list to be more cutthroat than this. There's a lot of stuff in here that I feel is pretty bad and/or doesn't belong in a powered 360 list. Hm. Not what I expected at all.
While it's true that I have called cards bad in the past, I would hardly call any of them sacred cows other than Armageddon. Off the top of my head I can remember calling stuff like Aftershock, Deso Angel, Flame Javelin, and Juggernaut bad. I'm sure there's others, but I remember those being the most controversial. I don't think it's that unreasonable since Aftershock is highly debated, Flame Javelin and Jugz rightfully got cut, and Deso Angel is also falling out of favor. I knew I would take a lot of heat for my Armageddon comment, but as you can see literally every threat in this cube costs less than it and in the 3 years of cubing we've done it hasn't been impressive. Sorry if my attitude seems harsh but emotion is hard to convey over the internet and I simply speak my mind.
Gideon's Lawkeeper is pretty mundane for a powered 360 list.
Agreed, he hasn't been very good but I'm waiting for a better one drop to be printed. I actually think Champion of the Parish is close to being good enough for 360. Weathered Wayfarer has been requested by my group and will likely be swapped in.
You have a ton of WW creatures in here, and some of 'em just don't hack it at 360. Serra Avenger and KotWO are particularly out of place at this level, IMO.
I think the XX creatures aren't so bad as they help to push mono-colored strategies. KotWO has been a consistently solid performer though.
Fiend Hunter and Stonecloaker are pretty suboptimal at 360.
Stonecloaker is the weakest 3-drop I run in white, but Fiend Hunter has been much better than I expected and can generate some nice tempo swings.
No Exalted/Baneslayer Angel? Hm.
Exalted was far too slow, too much investment, and too easy to remove for all the mana you have to pump into it. Baneslayer is a good card but it's not exciting and easily removed or bounced. We really don't like expensive creatures that don't immediately impact the board. The tempo swings were too great when it got bounced or removed.
No Reveillark? That card is ridiculous, and would be a bomb with the number of low-power toolbox creatures in this cube.
Yeah I expected him to be a great card too, but he never really worked for us. The lack of immediate impact and the fact that sometimes he didn't get two targets back ultimately led us to cut him.
No Sun Titan is another head-scratcher.
He was too expensive and sometimes he didn't have great targets.
Enlightened Tutor is a great card and should go in here.
Shrine of Loyal Legions is a pretty terrible card. With the high concentration of artifact removal in this cube, it's dangerous to continue to curve out with this on the board. It can get popped so easily and you get nothing for your mana investment.
It's currently in for testing.
Honor of the Pure doesn't hack it at this level.
I like to support a couple niche mono-colored cards that are insane in specific decks.
There's a crazy lack of great 4cc noncreature cards in here. No Wrath of God? No Day of Judgement? No Moat? I guess the best aggro comes from removing all the good control cards...
Wrath may come back if we feel the need for it, but most of the time the controlling decks use creatures to combat the aggro decks.
Catastrophe is a sick bomb, and should be in here, but a lot of cards should be.
It was too slow for us.
Windbrisk Heights was a win-more card that was either unnecessary or terrible when we played it.
It was terrible when we first tried it as well, but it's been quite a bit better with the increased token support and cards like Blade Splicer and Hero of Bladehold.
..........
Riftwing Cloudskate and Invisible Stalker. Hm. Blue cards are better than this.
We like Riftwing for the tempo decks. Stalker is still in testing.
Dungeon Geists is an okay card for large C/U cubes, but is super weak for a 360 powered list. Tradewind Rider is slow and weak for its mana investment.
I really want to test Geists since Frost Titan was such a beating for us. Tradewind has been great in U/G and U/W tokens.
Control Magic and Deep Analysis are two amazing 4cc blue spells that are missing.
Control Magic costs more that almost every threat in this cube so it often trades down on mana and steals a tapped attacker which didn't help the blue deck stabilize. We've never liked Deep Analysis.
Treachery and Bribery are both bombs too, and should go in here; even with your low cc creatures.
Time Spiral is pretty good, and should be in here IMO.
These three are the next cards on deck to come back in; but all of them are a little too slow for this cube.
..........
Dusk Urchins, Gatekeeper, Chittering Rats, Rager, Throat Slitter ...there's an abundance of mediocre black 3cc creatures in here. Like, a ton of pretty bad cards.
The problem we encountered with black aggro last time was that it lost to other aggro decks. These guys help shore up that weakness and I think they are all-around fine cards that give you value. There aren't many acceptable options for black 3cc creatures; Bone Shredder and Bane are fine, but Shredder isn't good in aggro and Bane is a little slow.
Reanimate? Animate Dead? Necromancy? Where are all your reanimation spells?
Animate Dead and Necromancy are very good, but we don't have the necessary support for the reanimator deck atm. We aren't playing enough outlets and/or reanimation targets. On top of that, only one person has ever enjoyed playing reanimator in our playgroup and he's currently on hiatus. They are decent in non-dedicated decks, but oftentimes they are too situational.
..........
You have a lot of RR creatures. I'd scale them back and find some more with better casting costs.
Siege-Gang Commander and Inferno Titan are pretty good creatures. I'd play both of them for sure.
Inferno is a totally insane card I agree, but it was playing more like a 3 colored card. Red decks never wanted to play him and he often was just splashed in RUG or UWR decks. Those colors have access to other finishers. He's a recent cut so we'll see if his presence is missed.
Pillage wants to play too. As does Chandra 1.0 and some other good X spells.
Chandra and the other X spells were too slow for our typically red decks. I would run normal Earthquake, but the redundancy is too much for this size. Pillage isn't needed as there is plenty of artifact hate and we like to maximize damage-dealing spells in our red decks.
..........
Green could use one or two more fatties.
I don't think there is many good options for these. Woodfall Primus is good but doesn't see much play since cards like Vengevine and Thrun are more efficient.
Beast Within looks pretty loose. Bramblecrush is a better option, IMO. Giving your opponent free 3/3s is a drag.
I was a huge skeptic of Beast Within, but it's been better than we expected.
Reach/Cultivate are both great ramp cards and sources of green card advantage.
They are good, but we prefer the mana dorks since they increase the value of equipment in your deck and can help kill your opponent. They are also cheaper and ramp you in earlier stages of the game.
..........
No Celestial Colonnade, Psychatog, Creeping Tar Pit, Prophetic Bolt, Trygon Predator, Mystic Snake? Ram-Gang and Sculler are pretty weak for 360, IMHO.
Colonnade and Tar Pit are insane, but I don't want to increase the amount of fixing. Tog is ok but I prefer Sygg and we don't need the discard outlet for reanimator. I think Viridian Shaman and friends are just better than Trygon. Mystic Snake is in the list. Ram-Gang is borderline but a good card for mono-red to have access to. I like Sculler but I might test Lingering Souls.
..........
I think City of Brass needs to be in at the very least.
I don't want to increase the amount of fixing. It's sad because I can't even use my foil 8th edition City.
It's kinda a wall of text, but like I said above ...I'm shocked with the list TBH.
Stonecloaker: This is definitely the weakest white 3-drop creature I run; however, it's a nice trick that can help you dodge removal and re-use an ETB effect. This will be cut for the next great white 3-drop.
Invisible Stalker: This is a new addition primarily in response to the great success it's seeing in standard. I heard this card is a nightmare in draft too. It's either terrible or overpowered but I think it's nice to have a niche card like this that you need to keep in mind and respect.
Tradewind Rider: This guy has been very good. We support blue tempo decks and he is great there as well as in U/G and U/W token strategies. He can dominate the board in certain situations. I'm surprised more cubes, especially large ones don't run him.
Unmask: One of my friends really loves this card so that's partially the reason it's in. It's a decent card but not spectacular. One of the changes that I made to my black section is the re-addition of the black aggro strategy. The problem that we encountered with the black aggro last time we ran it is that it loses to the other aggro decks. That's the reason I want to get as many "free spells" into black, so that you can curve out and disrupt their curve at the same time.
Stigma Lasher: The XX costing guys really aren't as bad as a lot of people seem to think. Having them around also helps mono-colored decks pick up playables since they are less likely to be snagged by other drafters. The life-gain clause can be good depending on their deck; it can be imperative against cards like Batterskull and Wurmcoil.
Lash Out: We really like this card as it is efficient against creatures, lets you smooth your draw, and it just feels unfair when it 3/3's them. It can even 2 for 1 against PW's.
Hidetsugu's Second Rite: This card is in solely for the fun-factor. It adds a very fun mini-game for the pilot and on top of that it can win games that no other card can win. It's also a card that needs to be respected since its presence alone causes players to be wary of their life total hitting 10.
Scryb Ranger: This is one of our favorite green cards. It does a lot of good things for a very cheap price. Not only does it keep a variety of creatures from attacking you (V-Clique for example) but it also ramps you if you miss a land drop and double ramps you if you have a mana dork. Also, it can flash into play and untap something like Vengevine for example in order to ambush an attacker. There was another game where I had Scryb Ranger and Tradewind Rider in play with a couple other dudes. The ability to re-use tap effects can be very backbreaking.
Sygg, River Cutthroat: He's a great engine card that our playgroup enjoys playing with. Since we play aggro-tempo blue decks he is more at home in our cube than cubes with a traditional blue section. He's a really unique card that's more important than something like Oona.
Hex Parasite: Hasn't been tested but PWs have been getting a little out of hand and I think it's becoming a needed addition.
Reserved. Also, sorry for the somewhat ugly formatting. I'll fix that later. Pictures will come later as well. Also, not every card has been tested in this list since I JUST decided to re-power my cube after a long period of playing Unpowered.
Hello everyone and welcome to my cube thread! This is where we can discuss my cube and card choices. The primary purpose of this thread is to act as a resource for prospective and current cubers and provide insight on cube design. I feel that my cube is pretty close to being complete, although I frequently patch my cube if I feel the need for a balance change or a certain card consistently underperforms. Feel free to ask why I am, or am not, running a certain card and I will be happy to discuss my success or failure with that particular card. Any comments are welcome!
Basic Cube Information and Explanations:
Mission Statement: The overall goal of this cube is to create a balanced drafting environment that is fun, skill intensive, and supports a variety of aggro, midrange and control archetypes while simultaneously maintaining the highest possible power level for a cube.
Total number of cards: 360.
After much playtesting I decided to trim the cube down to 360 cards. This allows for the construction of powerful decks with no weak links. Pack quality is high and archetypes reliant on specific cards can be consistently drafted. Additionally, cards that are weaker in larger lists become much stronger in ours; for example, Ranger of Eos, Stoneforge Mystic, and Trinket Mage.
Color Breakdowns: There are 50 cards of each color, 50 colorless cards, and 60 guild cards.
Power Level: This cube is Powered.
Our group has extensively tested Powered and Unpowered lists and ultimately I decided to settle on a Powered environment. There are some archetypes that just don't work in an Unpowered cube and cards that fit into those archetypes (e.g. Tezzeret the Seeker) aren't really that good. Additionally, cards like Viridian Shaman (which was never that great in our Unpowered) become far more powerful when they consistently act as three mana 2/2 sinkholes.
Miscellaneous Information: This cube contains Portal cards, allows Sideboards, contains no Snow cards, and does not allow Un-Cards. We draft the cube once or twice a week with an average of four to six drafters. When we draft with an even number of drafters higher than two, we form teams and play. Teams are assigned randomly before the draft and matches are best of three; a match win is worth one point. Once everyone from opposite teams has played each other, the team with the most points wins.
His -7 makes them draw 20 cards.
However, with the nature of this cube being very tempo oriented atm, setting up a good Control Magic isn't all that easy. There are very few bomb targets, so not only does it often steal a weenie, but a lot of the time that weenie is tapped and has already provided an ETB effect. On the other hand, Sower and Shackles have been excellent cards and as I mentioned, Treachery is the next card in line to come back in. I also considered Threads of Disloyalty at one point but decided against it.
We tested both of them and neither was very good. Reckless Waif only flipped once or twice in the three months that its been in the cube; so it had to go. And I don't really like the 3-mana burn spells because they are very inefficient against a lot of creatures. The morbid was about 25/75. Overall, even though I hate Char, it's more consistent than Volley and I think I like Rhystic Lightning better as well.
I think the red section. There isn't much I'm unhappy with in that section and it's the section that receives the least amount of experimental changes and additions. The only thing that I want to see in upcoming sets is a few more solid creatures like Stormblood Berserker and Stromkirk Noble.
*Edit: Oh I read it as Reckless Waif. Reckless Charge is something that I've actually been wanting to try out. I could see potentially swapping Rift Bolt out in order to test it. But is it really better than a burn spell?
Kokusho is basically in there for combo potential with Recurring Nightmare which i'm fine with for right now since black is the weakest color in our cube right now. I'm playing around with black's configuration to see what is most effective which is why there is so many "free spells" atm. I really want to see how effective they are and how willing people are to play them. Snuff Out has always been an all-star and we like Slaughter Pact more than Doom Blade since it allows you to curve out and remove their creature and also creates some interesting surprise moments.
I would like a couple more acceptable targets for him but he's a nice card for the blue artifact based deck since grabbing a simple Mox is more than acceptable and grabbing Top and Pithing Needle is also pretty good. I've even splashed him in aggro in order to grab Skullclamp.
Hope that helps explain some choices here!
Stonecloaker: This is definitely the weakest white 3-drop creature I run; however, it's a nice trick that can help you dodge removal and re-use an ETB effect. This will be cut for the next great white 3-drop.
Invisible Stalker: This is a new addition primarily in response to the great success it's seeing in standard. I heard this card is a nightmare in draft too. It's either terrible or overpowered but I think it's nice to have a niche card like this that you need to keep in mind and respect.
Tradewind Rider: This guy has been very good. We support blue tempo decks and he is great there as well as in U/G and U/W token strategies. He can dominate the board in certain situations. I'm surprised more cubes, especially large ones don't run him.
Unmask: One of my friends really loves this card so that's partially the reason it's in. It's a decent card but not spectacular. One of the changes that I made to my black section is the re-addition of the black aggro strategy. The problem that we encountered with the black aggro last time we ran it is that it loses to the other aggro decks. That's the reason I want to get as many "free spells" into black, so that you can curve out and disrupt their curve at the same time.
Stigma Lasher: The XX costing guys really aren't as bad as a lot of people seem to think. Having them around also helps mono-colored decks pick up playables since they are less likely to be snagged by other drafters. The life-gain clause can be good depending on their deck; it can be imperative against cards like Batterskull and Wurmcoil.
Lash Out: We really like this card as it is efficient against creatures, lets you smooth your draw, and it just feels unfair when it 3/3's them. It can even 2 for 1 against PW's.
Hidetsugu's Second Rite: This card is in solely for the fun-factor. It adds a very fun mini-game for the pilot and on top of that it can win games that no other card can win. It's also a card that needs to be respected since its presence alone causes players to be wary of their life total hitting 10.
Scryb Ranger: This is one of our favorite green cards. It does a lot of good things for a very cheap price. Not only does it keep a variety of creatures from attacking you (V-Clique for example) but it also ramps you if you miss a land drop and double ramps you if you have a mana dork. Also, it can flash into play and untap something like Vengevine for example in order to ambush an attacker. There was another game where I had Scryb Ranger and Tradewind Rider in play with a couple other dudes. The ability to re-use tap effects can be very backbreaking.
Sygg, River Cutthroat: He's a great engine card that our playgroup enjoys playing with. Since we play aggro-tempo blue decks he is more at home in our cube than cubes with a traditional blue section. He's a really unique card that's more important than something like Oona.
Hex Parasite: Hasn't been tested but PWs have been getting a little out of hand and I think it's becoming a needed addition.
Hope that helped!
Basic Cube Information and Explanations:
Mission Statement: The overall goal of this cube is to create a balanced drafting environment that is fun, skill intensive, and supports a variety of aggro, midrange and control archetypes while simultaneously maintaining the highest possible power level for a cube.
Total number of cards: 360.
After much playtesting I decided to trim the cube down to 360 cards. This allows for the construction of powerful decks with no weak links. Pack quality is high and archetypes reliant on specific cards can be consistently drafted. Additionally, cards that are weaker in larger lists become much stronger in ours; for example, Ranger of Eos, Stoneforge Mystic, and Trinket Mage.
Color Breakdowns: There are 50 cards of each color, 50 colorless cards, and 60 guild cards.
Power Level: This cube is Powered.
Our group has extensively tested Powered and Unpowered lists and ultimately I decided to settle on a Powered environment. There are some archetypes that just don't work in an Unpowered cube and cards that fit into those archetypes (e.g. Tezzeret the Seeker) aren't really that good. Additionally, cards like Viridian Shaman (which was never that great in our Unpowered) become far more powerful when they consistently act as three mana 2/2 sinkholes.
Miscellaneous Information: This cube contains Portal cards, allows Sideboards, contains no Snow cards, and does not allow Un-Cards. We draft the cube once or twice a week with an average of four to six drafters. When we draft with an even number of drafters higher than two, we form teams and play. Teams are assigned randomly before the draft and matches are best of three; a match win is worth one point. Once everyone from opposite teams has played each other, the team with the most points wins.
My Top Cube Cards
White:
1) Elspeth, Knight Errant
2) Gideon Jura
3) Stoneforge Mystic
4) Mother of Runes
5) Path to Exile
Blue:
1) Ancestral Recall
2) Time Walk
3) Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4) Mana Drain
5) Tinker
Black:
1) Dark Confidant
2) Bitterblossom
3) Recurring Nightmare
4) Mind Twist
5) Grave Titan
Red:
1) Flametongue Kavu
2) Koth of the Hammer
3) Sulfuric Vortex
4) Hero of Oxid Ridge
5) Rolling Earthquake
Green:
1) Survival of the Fittest
2) Thrun, the Last Troll
3) Garruk Relentless
4) Tarmogoyf
5) Noble Hierarch
Multi:
1) Ajani Vengeant
2) Kitchen Finks
3) Geist of Saint Traft
4) Bloodbraid Elf
5) Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
Cube List:
White:
White Spells:
Blue:
Blue Spells
Black:
Black Spells:
Red:
Red Spells:
Green:
Green Spells:
Guild:
U/W
U/B
U/R
U/G
W/B
W/R
W/G
B/R
B/G
R/G
Colorless:
Colorless Spells:
Colorless Lands: