Awesome suggestion for forge-tender - will definitely try.
I think most people agree at this point that titan is SB material, since it's difficult both to tutor and fetch, but can be house in grindy matchups (and the occasional mill). I personally play a Reveilark (with splicers) in his place in the main to handle UW control, but that slot may as well be another 3 CMC thing.
Thragtusk is a bit slow, especially considering double finks give enough lifegain to have an even burn matchup before siding, but if you like it in the main it's never bad.
Angel is bad as a gameplan to answer fast threats (e.g. plating) but is acceptable in the main, since: a) it swings and blocks in the air in clogged boards (bonus utility in creating a copy with Saheeli for lethal past souls/birds) b) it deals with fringe strategies or locks we can otherwise not handle. However, those matchups are usually favored after boarding anyway, so I haven't seen too different winrates with or without her in the main (but she is extremely necessary in the side).
P.S. Because I have marginal experience (only 1-2 won games due to Magus, which I think were lucky), are we (un)favored against valakut?
Appreciate the thoughts on the flex slots. I think Sun Titan is going to become Rallier #4 for now. I haven't faced Titan Shift yet, but I suspect it's a tough matchup, especially without Forge-Tender. They're running a fair amount of red removal which makes Magus mediocre, and we don't have a bunch of tools for stopping their combo. Aven Mindcensor is a bit awkward with a sorcery speed tutor, and I'm not sure we have room for Runed Halo or Worship.
Beat Grixis Death's Shadow, Tezzerator, Burn, and Gifts Storm. I just picked the deck up recently, so my thoughts are tentative, but hopefully still somewhat useful.
Rallier feels like a million bucks. It combines with Lotus Cobra for the most busted draws this deck is capable of, and is the key player in the value plan against decks like GDS and G/B/x midrange. Against GDS in particular, pulling back a Voice of Resurgence feels close to unbeatable. I'm currently experimenting with a 21 land build due in part to Rallier consistently buying lands back early on. T1 dork, T2 fetch, Rallier is a rock solid start.
This is probably the best Rallier shell in the format, and I think we ought to lean into it. I've been happy enough drawing multiples to consider adding the 4th Rallier in place of Sun Titan. Sun Titan is a monster when it lands, but 6 mana is an awful lot.
It's often right to just go for the combo if you have a Voice of Resurgence on the table. Especially with a Rallier heavy variant, you're often flooding the board with bodies, and even if they have a removal spell to disrupt the combo, they're giving you a 3/3 or better in the deal. Against decks with a lot of interaction like GDS, applying pressure on multiple fronts is huge.
There are a ton of viable options for the Evolution toolbox. I'm fairly confident in Pridemage, Ooze, and Witness. Less sold on Angel of Sanctions and Sun Titan. I've seen a range of opinions on those two, but I'm not sure where I land yet. In the board, I can't advocate strongly enough for Burrenton Forge-Tender, particularly with multiple Ralliers. It's more than just a defensive tool against Burn. It's the best tool we have against cards like Anger of the Gods, Kozilek's Return, and a Lightning Bolt aimed at Saheeli.
I can't imagine Standard attendance is down due to card prices given the cost of a tier 1 deck is lower than it's been in years. Larger print runs, special inserts, and the mythic rarity have all contributed a large drop in overall deck prices. Now-a-days, there are only a few cards that are worth the majority of a set's value, and those cards tend to retain their value as they transition into Modern.
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd look at PPTQs, the 18-month rotation plan, and how the last few iterations of the format played. PPTQs, in their sheer quantity are parasitic upon one another, and weekly fair such as FNM. The PPTQ system weeds out all but the most hardcore grinders, and they dominate the weekend schedule at many stores. While faster rotations helped reduce individual card prices, value of a card relative to its stay in Standard has stayed about the same (a $10 card in 24-month Standard might be worth $7.50 in 18-month Standard). Additionally, 18-month Standard also came at the expense of those that wanted to play with their cards for longer, and enjoyed a slower moving metagame. I think for a lot of casually/moderately active Standard players, this turned the rotation changes into a net negative. I think the single largest factor in attendance drops has been the format itself. We're going on 2 years of the generally consensus being down on how Standard plays. We've transitioned from a 4-color midrange blob format, to a hyper-linear high variation format.
3 Scooze, 4 path and 2 worship seem ok for dredge - never tried worship myself. 4 MD spell queller is a bit innovative - I don't think we've seen results with that card yet. Selfless spirit is not exactly a fast clock, but plays a role. The most questionable choice to me is the 3x Noble Hierarch - where is number 4 hiding? Surely 4 Nobles and 3 Birds is correct for 7 dorks?
The dork split leans towards BoP to help with red mana. (Wolf Run/Staticaster).
The Spell Quellers feel great in this list. You have them up on turn 2 most of the time, they obviously play well with CoCo, and they serve as blowout protection when you're going off.
The red splash also feels good. Wolf Run is a primo finisher, and great with Knight in general. The flex spots seem to be 1 Spellskite, 2 Selfless Spirit, 2 Scooze, 2 Pridemage. I love Selfless Spirit here. They blank sweepers, protect the combo, and act as a trick off of CoCo. I could see trying to find room for a 3rd in the 75 as we move forward.
@Siefer, with all those discards, I really wonder if you won't run too quickly out of fuel, before Haunted Dead can jumps into a graveyard. On top of that: what if the opponent has a sweeper or exiles? Seems like a deck impossible to rebuild once your plan is stopped. (need to wait 2 turns so you have 2 cards again to discard for haunted dead, and very hard to get Cryptbreaker again if they are in your grave.
I especially look for zombies since they have the "rebuild independent of what the opponent does" idea deep inside it.
In practice running out of gas isn't much of a problem. We don't need to keep playing lands beyond 5 (or sometimes 4), and our discard effects tend to generate card advantage as they go. Sweepers aren't scary as we can bring most of the relevant pieces back quickly. Descend upon the Sinful is certainly rough, but it's less common in this metagame. This deck is very similar to Bant Coco in its ability to rebuild from sweepers. Liliana can pull back vital pieces, and once we have a Haunted Dead and an Amalgam, the pressure is pretty consistent.
Step 1 is beating Bant CoCo. We have to do better than that, and at least hang with other decks in the format, but if you can't be Bant, you have no shot. Here's where I'm at right now.
Bant CoCo variants are around half the meta right now. Bant CoCo is similar to old Jund in that it squeezes every last drop of value out of its cards. It combines a staggering amount of card advantage, tempo, and board presence. Everything is a threat, and you'll fall behind if you're just trying to trade 1 for 1. Sweepers are good against them, but due in part to their ability to play at instant-speed, they're quite good at maintaining pressure through wraths.
One of the few things Bant CoCo is subpar at is directly interacting with your stuff. If you can establish an instant-speed value engine that meets or exceeds theirs, you've got something. Once I realized Relentless Dead was a trap, and freed myself of that slot commitment, the whole deck opened up. I think we want to lean into what this deck does well. The only deck better at playing on the opponents turn is Spirits. We have so many high value, tempo positive plays off the back of Cryptbreaker and Jace. Haunting Dead+Prized Amalgam+Voldaren Pariah is our premier power play, but mid-combat or end step Gisa's Bidding us our bread and butter.
Match-ups (WIP):
Abzan Mid-Range: Most everything they do is at sorcery speed, so we can punish them with patient play and exploding on their end step. They have to deal with our discard outlets or they can't keep up. We're soft to their planeswalkers game one, so it's important to keep the pressure on. From my testing, I think we're even to slightly favored in these B/G/x variant matches.
W/x Humans: Their nut draws on the play beat us (and everyone else), but in general, we have a ton of profitable interactions with them and this is a good match-up. Don't be afraid to trade cards 1 for 1 early just to stabilize. Just be mindful of Gryf's Boon variants surprising you with flying damage.
Bant CoCo: We're just good against them. We match their speed and card advantage, and we're better at playing on their turn than they are on ours. With a Cryptbreaker or Jace in play, their combat steps become fraught, and neither Avacyn or Selfless Spirit can do enough to save them. Dark Salvation is really good here. Due to their limited removal, it's hard for them to disrupt our plan, and Pariah flat out wrecks them. Be mindful of getting blown out by Dromaka's Command. That's one of their only ways to get over the hump.
Spirits: This one is rough. They're better at playing the flash game than us, and nearly everything they do counters what's we're about. What often happens in you'll succeed in assembling a board, but be a turn behind their aerial clock. Our silver lining is an unchecked Liliana. If we keep her in play, she can dominate the board.
Overall I'm loving this deck, and think it's well positioned, but it's far from optimal right now. I really want a 10th reliable discard outlet (what I would give for Merfolk Looter. Having a discard outlet online is what makes this deck tick. Our win rate is notably tied to whether or not we have an active Cryptbreaker, Jace, or Infiltrator in play. I've also been trying to figure out how to fit in a 2nd Murder. They're not super prevalent right now, but we can struggle against dinosaurs.
Hello fellow Zombie lovers. I am the creator of the other thread on this subject, Cryptbreaker Control. I created it because I have noticed the power the deck has at instant speed and was definitely not interested in any suggestions that involved cards that are unplayable in constructed like Wailing Ghoul. I am more invested in actually winning games than holding strictly to a zombie archetype or staying within an arbitrary budget. However since there are so many people on this thread I thought I would at least post a build and let you know some of my thoughts on zombies in constructed.
First and foremost, I would caution anyone not playing 4 Cryptbreakers and 4 Dark Salvations. I think that these additions are the core of the deck and the reason to play it.
I don't think some of the cards with the word "zombie" on them are actually good or have the right support. For example, Diregraf Colossus doesn't have enough self mill to enable it and half of the zombie creatures that are playable are token generators or use activated abilities instead of "cast".
Please let me know what you think. I have tested this deck a lot and would encourage you to do so as well. I won't post one of those outlandish claims like that it has an 80% win against Bant Coco but I do think the matchup is even to somewhat positive.
I think you're on point with a lot of your analysis, and my list is fairly similar.
Some thoughts:
We're absolutely a mid-game/control deck. This deck is at it's best when it's playing at instant speed.
I've found myself wanting hard removal versus bounce most of the time. We're a bit grindy and I don't think we can afford to use our resources just for tempo.
Submerged Boneyard is probably better than at least a couple of your islands. We're super black mana hungry, especially with Pariah.
Regarding Pariah, I really want 3-4 copies of her in the main. In addition to the strength of Cryptbreaker and Dark Salvation, I think the Haunted Dead+Amalgam+Pariah interactions are the backbone of the deck. It can all happen at instant speed, gets around Selfless Spirit and Avacyn, and leaves you with a 6/5 flyer on board. It's unreal good.
I'm worried about how parasitic the Ingest and Processor mechanics seem to be. Maybe it will play better once we get our hands on the cards, but this feels a lot like Splice and Arcane.
Certainly not the worst set (or even close), but it has looked pretty disappointing so far. Of what's been spoiled, the power level is noticeably weak, and the mechanics range from uninteresting (devoid) to parasitic (ingest/exile bonuses).
Appreciate the thoughts on the flex slots. I think Sun Titan is going to become Rallier #4 for now. I haven't faced Titan Shift yet, but I suspect it's a tough matchup, especially without Forge-Tender. They're running a fair amount of red removal which makes Magus mediocre, and we don't have a bunch of tools for stopping their combo. Aven Mindcensor is a bit awkward with a sorcery speed tutor, and I'm not sure we have room for Runed Halo or Worship.
2 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
2 Lotus Cobra
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Renegade Rallier
1 Eternal Witness
4 Felidar Guardian
1 Angel of Sanctions
1 Sun Titan
Spells (15)
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Saheeli Rai
4 Path to Exile
3 Eldritch Evolution
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Manglehorn
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Devout Lightcaster
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Stony Silence
1 Dusk/Dawn
Beat Grixis Death's Shadow, Tezzerator, Burn, and Gifts Storm. I just picked the deck up recently, so my thoughts are tentative, but hopefully still somewhat useful.
Rallier feels like a million bucks. It combines with Lotus Cobra for the most busted draws this deck is capable of, and is the key player in the value plan against decks like GDS and G/B/x midrange. Against GDS in particular, pulling back a Voice of Resurgence feels close to unbeatable. I'm currently experimenting with a 21 land build due in part to Rallier consistently buying lands back early on. T1 dork, T2 fetch, Rallier is a rock solid start.
This is probably the best Rallier shell in the format, and I think we ought to lean into it. I've been happy enough drawing multiples to consider adding the 4th Rallier in place of Sun Titan. Sun Titan is a monster when it lands, but 6 mana is an awful lot.
It's often right to just go for the combo if you have a Voice of Resurgence on the table. Especially with a Rallier heavy variant, you're often flooding the board with bodies, and even if they have a removal spell to disrupt the combo, they're giving you a 3/3 or better in the deal. Against decks with a lot of interaction like GDS, applying pressure on multiple fronts is huge.
There are a ton of viable options for the Evolution toolbox. I'm fairly confident in Pridemage, Ooze, and Witness. Less sold on Angel of Sanctions and Sun Titan. I've seen a range of opinions on those two, but I'm not sure where I land yet. In the board, I can't advocate strongly enough for Burrenton Forge-Tender, particularly with multiple Ralliers. It's more than just a defensive tool against Burn. It's the best tool we have against cards like Anger of the Gods, Kozilek's Return, and a Lightning Bolt aimed at Saheeli.
If I had to hazard a guess, I'd look at PPTQs, the 18-month rotation plan, and how the last few iterations of the format played. PPTQs, in their sheer quantity are parasitic upon one another, and weekly fair such as FNM. The PPTQ system weeds out all but the most hardcore grinders, and they dominate the weekend schedule at many stores. While faster rotations helped reduce individual card prices, value of a card relative to its stay in Standard has stayed about the same (a $10 card in 24-month Standard might be worth $7.50 in 18-month Standard). Additionally, 18-month Standard also came at the expense of those that wanted to play with their cards for longer, and enjoyed a slower moving metagame. I think for a lot of casually/moderately active Standard players, this turned the rotation changes into a net negative. I think the single largest factor in attendance drops has been the format itself. We're going on 2 years of the generally consensus being down on how Standard plays. We've transitioned from a 4-color midrange blob format, to a hyper-linear high variation format.
Thoughts?
The dork split leans towards BoP to help with red mana. (Wolf Run/Staticaster).
The Spell Quellers feel great in this list. You have them up on turn 2 most of the time, they obviously play well with CoCo, and they serve as blowout protection when you're going off.
The red splash also feels good. Wolf Run is a primo finisher, and great with Knight in general. The flex spots seem to be 1 Spellskite, 2 Selfless Spirit, 2 Scooze, 2 Pridemage. I love Selfless Spirit here. They blank sweepers, protect the combo, and act as a trick off of CoCo. I could see trying to find room for a 3rd in the 75 as we move forward.
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Spellskite
4 Spell Queller
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Selfless Spirit
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Courser of Kruphix
Spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Temple Garden
3 Forest
1 Plains
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Gavony Township
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Flooded Strand
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ghost Quarter
3 Negate
2 Worship
3 Izzet Staticaster
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Blessed Alliance
In practice running out of gas isn't much of a problem. We don't need to keep playing lands beyond 5 (or sometimes 4), and our discard effects tend to generate card advantage as they go. Sweepers aren't scary as we can bring most of the relevant pieces back quickly. Descend upon the Sinful is certainly rough, but it's less common in this metagame. This deck is very similar to Bant Coco in its ability to rebuild from sweepers. Liliana can pull back vital pieces, and once we have a Haunted Dead and an Amalgam, the pressure is pretty consistent.
4 Cryptbreaker
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Wharf Infiltrator
The Value
4 Gisa's Bidding
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Haunted Dead
3 Voldaren Pariah
The Removal
1 Sinister Concoction
3 Dark Salvation
1 Murder
4 Grasp of Darkness
3 Liliana, the Last Hope
The Lands
4 Sunken Hollow
4 Choked Estuary
2 Submerged Boneyard
12 Swamp
2 Island
2 Virulent Plague
2 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Ob Nixilis, Reignited
1 Dragonlord Silumgar
2 Ruinous Path
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Duress
3 Languish
Bant CoCo variants are around half the meta right now. Bant CoCo is similar to old Jund in that it squeezes every last drop of value out of its cards. It combines a staggering amount of card advantage, tempo, and board presence. Everything is a threat, and you'll fall behind if you're just trying to trade 1 for 1. Sweepers are good against them, but due in part to their ability to play at instant-speed, they're quite good at maintaining pressure through wraths.
One of the few things Bant CoCo is subpar at is directly interacting with your stuff. If you can establish an instant-speed value engine that meets or exceeds theirs, you've got something. Once I realized Relentless Dead was a trap, and freed myself of that slot commitment, the whole deck opened up. I think we want to lean into what this deck does well. The only deck better at playing on the opponents turn is Spirits. We have so many high value, tempo positive plays off the back of Cryptbreaker and Jace. Haunting Dead+Prized Amalgam+Voldaren Pariah is our premier power play, but mid-combat or end step Gisa's Bidding us our bread and butter.
Match-ups (WIP):
Abzan Mid-Range: Most everything they do is at sorcery speed, so we can punish them with patient play and exploding on their end step. They have to deal with our discard outlets or they can't keep up. We're soft to their planeswalkers game one, so it's important to keep the pressure on. From my testing, I think we're even to slightly favored in these B/G/x variant matches.
W/x Humans: Their nut draws on the play beat us (and everyone else), but in general, we have a ton of profitable interactions with them and this is a good match-up. Don't be afraid to trade cards 1 for 1 early just to stabilize. Just be mindful of Gryf's Boon variants surprising you with flying damage.
Bant CoCo: We're just good against them. We match their speed and card advantage, and we're better at playing on their turn than they are on ours. With a Cryptbreaker or Jace in play, their combat steps become fraught, and neither Avacyn or Selfless Spirit can do enough to save them. Dark Salvation is really good here. Due to their limited removal, it's hard for them to disrupt our plan, and Pariah flat out wrecks them. Be mindful of getting blown out by Dromaka's Command. That's one of their only ways to get over the hump.
Spirits: This one is rough. They're better at playing the flash game than us, and nearly everything they do counters what's we're about. What often happens in you'll succeed in assembling a board, but be a turn behind their aerial clock. Our silver lining is an unchecked Liliana. If we keep her in play, she can dominate the board.
Overall I'm loving this deck, and think it's well positioned, but it's far from optimal right now. I really want a 10th reliable discard outlet (what I would give for Merfolk Looter. Having a discard outlet online is what makes this deck tick. Our win rate is notably tied to whether or not we have an active Cryptbreaker, Jace, or Infiltrator in play. I've also been trying to figure out how to fit in a 2nd Murder. They're not super prevalent right now, but we can struggle against dinosaurs.
Thoughts and suggestions are welcome.
I think you're on point with a lot of your analysis, and my list is fairly similar.
Some thoughts:
We're absolutely a mid-game/control deck. This deck is at it's best when it's playing at instant speed.
I've found myself wanting hard removal versus bounce most of the time. We're a bit grindy and I don't think we can afford to use our resources just for tempo.
Submerged Boneyard is probably better than at least a couple of your islands. We're super black mana hungry, especially with Pariah.
Regarding Pariah, I really want 3-4 copies of her in the main. In addition to the strength of Cryptbreaker and Dark Salvation, I think the Haunted Dead+Amalgam+Pariah interactions are the backbone of the deck. It can all happen at instant speed, gets around Selfless Spirit and Avacyn, and leaves you with a 6/5 flyer on board. It's unreal good.