MTG Salvation

Quote from Murderdog

So its okay and fair to screw the other guys that are playing for those spots during this crucial round?

I honestly want to know if that is the generally accepted practice. That the other people who played all day are cool with people conceeding others into top 8. I just know I would be furious if it happened to me, but I dont play at these tournaments.

Then perhaps you shouldn't comment on them? The person in 8th place usually has one more win than the people in 9th and 10th place. For example:

8th place - 30 points
9th place - 27 points
10th place - 27 points
11th place - 27 points


Let's say the person in 8th place gets paired against the person in 10th place. The person in 9th place is paired against the person in 11th place. Guess what? The person in 10th place *cannot* make Top 8. The person in 9th place and the person in 11th place *can* make Top 8. Totally unfair, but usually how it works because of breakers.

Because of tie-breakers, if the person in 8th place losses to the person in 10th place, they will not make top 8. Now the person in 8th is ALREADY AHEAD, they are ahead a win. If the person in 10th doesn't scoop to them, they are screwing over the person in 8th. The person in 9th and 11th have already lost more games, yet you think they deserve it over the person in 8th?

Quote from lyme

In my honest opinion the tone of this thread is completely fine. Players that bully other players in tournaments need to be berated by other players. Thats why bullies do what they do, because they get away with justifying it.

Asking for a concession is not "bullying" a player. People who are here suggesting I'm an "elitist prick", "everything that is wrong with Magic" and should be "beaten up in the parking lot"? That's bullying.

I have never been anything less than civil with players during a game. I'm not a bad guy, I'm not going to flip out on you because your sleeves are scuffed or you need to use the bathroom. I'm not going to get angry at you because you need to take a phone call - it's a game, and yes, there are players who will flip on you about all that sort of stuff.

But there is a reality here about how tournaments work. If you go into tournaments thinking "me, me, me... I'm the Highlander, it's all about my wins, playing every match, being the most awesome ME I can be" you're in for a world of hurt in the long run. Magic is, as someone else put it, more Nascar than Golf. You need that buddy who helps you pull into first, you need that guy who gives you tips, parts, etc... to give you an edge.

Without it? You're honestly not as good of a player. Much like Poker, there's a social aspect to this game, that, like it or not, separates competitive and less-competitive players.

Quote from Kurraga

So what's this?


Because getting "everyone I know, every single person in my network of Magic players" to help you succeed against someone who didn't give you the easy and possibly undeserved win isn't collusion?

It's an explanation of how the Golden Rule works. If you dick me over, and I'm sitting around with my friends going "man, John Smith completely screwed me out of Top 8 just to get 9th place", what do you think happens when they see John Smith in a tournament later?

What do you think my attitude is going to be towards John Smith later? What do you think hobby shop owners in the area who make tens of thousands off of my groups of friends think about the guy who reduced the number of tournaments my group is buying cards for?

It's not some intentional thing where we're following you around ruining your life, this isn't the mob, I'm simply explaining what's a natural occurrence when you make a habit of causing problems for other tournament players. Trust me, if you irk enough people, you're going to find yourself without a lot of Magic players. Hell, I know tournament players who have made such a habit of being rude at PTQs that *casual players* in the area know about them and avoid them like the plague.

We all know "That Guy" that no one wants to play cards with. When you screw someone out of Top 8, you can become "That Guy".

Quote from Nick_

I can't seem to get the reasoning behind being against IDs and concessions. Sure, you might say that it's "unethical" and "well, because you scooped him into top8 that kid over there didn't get it!" but those aren't points that, to me, are as valid as the reasons why you should ID or concede to someone.

I've been on both sides of this. I've been scooped into top8s, I've drawn into countless top8s, and even been the one to scoop someone into other top8s. The reason I scooped him in was simple. It was the right thing to do - he was win-and-in and I couldn't make it into top8 even with a win. Rather than beat him and knock him out of contention, why not just let him advance to the next round? There's nothing wrong with that. The arguments against scooping seem to suggest that the only way Player A gets into top8 is if Player B concedes to him, but hey, Player A can still beat B and it might as well have been a concession to save time and stress. And if that knocks someone out of top8, well, if A won through actually playing, guess what? Player C would still have been knocked out of top8. There's no under the table scheming here. It's just being a decent person.

I'm not sure if you go around relishing every chance you get to put someone down, but personally I don't. I like to help people, and if that means I have to miss top16 to get you a shot at a Blue Envelope, well, have fun in top8 buddy.

The difference between the players at the top of the standings and those at the bottom complaining about IDs and concessions removing integrity is simple - aside from the huge gap in playskill, the better players don't care about little prizes like packs. You might think "Gee, I won 6 packs guys! This was really worth it!" but that's nothing compared to the invite and airfare. We're here for the competitive aspects of the game, not to lose money by showing up and walking away with a few packs.

And by the way, giving someone product because they conceded to you isn't collusion unless you say you'll concede for the product. (And personally, it's not even a factor in scooping. I do it because it's the right thing to do. I don't even own any Magic cards so it's not like I care about half a box or whatever. I borrow everything from dealers/friends on site)

I agree with you 100% (obviously) but one thing you have to keep in mind is that the majority of people reading what we're posting aren't pro players. In their mind, the reason they're not a pro player is because of everything else in the world:

Luck
Cheating
Collusion
"Teams"
Scooping
Netdeckers
ETC

In their mind, they're this brilliantly intelligent Magic player who just doesn't have the luck / time / friends / money / whatever to be a pro. So, if scooping / IDs give them another way to say "oh yeah, that's totally what is keeping me off the Pro Tour" then they're happy.

If it creates something they can claim is an "ethical" debate, they're even happier, because now they not only get to say "it's your fault I'm not a Pro", but also "I'm morally better than you".

-

Of course it's completely ridiculous that people would screw over another human being when they have nothing to gain from it, but suggesting Magic players on the whole are socially aware or thinking from the other person's shoes is giving them a lot more credit than they deserve.

Quote from RiverWalker

it makes it SEEM highly organized, and highly proliferated such that it is socially problematic NOT to yield to the group's will.

You're being a little paranoid. We're not going into tournaments strong-arming people into concessions. You ought to look to the people who are arguing against me, they're the ones saying they want to "beat me up in the parking lot".

If what I'm stating seems strong, keep in mind I'm making it clear because unfortunately Magic players as a lot are sometimes socially oblivious. It doesn't occur to people that the guy the shafted in a trade, cheated at a draft or dicked out of a Top 8 is going to be playing them at other tournaments.

I see the same group of people at the top tables of every tournament I attend. I do everything in my power to keep a socially positive atmosphere between us. Why? Because we need each other at various points, whether it's a last-minute card trade or a draw into Top 8.

It's not that they're planning to screw me or anyone else over, it's that if they're not my friend, they have no reason to help me.

Quote from RiverWalker

ok, THAT sort of social repurcussion, I got no issue with. those sorts of things, are just being ... unpleasant, with no real purpose to it.

I was worried what you were referring to was more someone being very strict on rules, but in a "well technically that IS how its supposed to be played anyway..." sort of way, rather than proactively antisocial ways. or simply playing hard every game, or that sort of thing.

No, Austin just has a habit of suddenly, mid-game deciding that shortcuts that were perfectly acceptable in Games 1 and 2 are now suddenly unclear in Game 3, because he's losing. He tries to spring judges on people to his advantage, but the reality is that judges are too smart for that, immediately they go "okay, you're trying to get a ruling to win the game, rather than play it out"

Obviously that pisses quite a few people off, because in reality shortcuts are accepted for a reason - they make tournaments go faster (understandably important when you have to play 10 rounds in a day). He makes tournaments longer, and that's bad ju-ju when we're all tired and hungry.

Quote from RiverWalker

but what you are talking about in this case, is social engineering totally apart from the game. its avoiding playing the game to take advantage of a lacking non-game structure. thats ethically a different ballgame, and is IMO, very unkosher.

What I'm talking about is a system that happens without people being aware of it. One of the rules of life is that people have an opinion of you whether you're aware of it or not. When you take the time to actively look at those opinions, you'll realize how they impact you.

Some people have a "Highlander" mentality about Magic. That's ultimately damaging, if you're too self-centered you're going to piss off a bunch of people, hurt your chances of finding a good test group, hurt your chances of making friends, etc...

The reality is, Magic is NOT a single-player game. Magic isn't even a 1-v-1 game, even in tournaments. It is a team driven game, it really is a socially driven game, Pros really do work together. You really can't be the superstar with a billion talents. Kibler isn't as good of a deck builder as Chapin, who isn't as good of a player as Kibler, who isn't as good of a drafter as LSV, and so on... there's just a reality to how the game works.

Quote from RiverWalker

is there a... movement... or something... to redesign the system to work better? because it sounds like it severely needs it.

There are changes occurring in how tournaments are structured. In reality the system needs to move towards embracing a more team-driven nature, not less, the "Highlander" era of Magic never existed, and even in fantasy it's over.

The best players are all a byproduct of team-design and testing these days.

Quote from RiverWalker

if what it takes to win, is compromising my ethics, then I'm not interested. I am not saying people should be antisocial, but I AM saying that EXPECTING people to concede rather than trying to do the best they can, even if its 9th, rather than 8th, is unreasonable.
and what you are describing, SOUNDS TO ME like it is unethically manipulating the system via collusion.

Well it's not. The system is built for concessions, it understand exactly that. Your highlander view of Magic is pure fantasy, it never worked that way, it's not going to start working that way.

The right conclusion has been drawn by you though, you can't handle competitive Magic because it requires playing in a way that you're not comfortable with. That's fine, it's not for everyone.

Quote from RiverWalker

and I am truly curious, what would HAPPEN, theoretically, that is so different or negative, with the current, broken system, if EVERY GAME was played through, with every player trying their best. what would result so differently, compared to with all this "teamwork" and such you describe as being so important... or whatever.

I don't understand how these "teams" and such work, when the game isn't actually a team "thing".

The best players would still be the best players. We would always be teams before we went into the tournaments. You would now be asking judges to sit down and see if games were "legit", did that draw happen because they really ran out of time, or did they intentionally play to a 1-1 and run out of time on the third game?

Did that player intentionally lose, or did he really just misplay?

Or is what you're suggesting an actual highlander mentality? Magic would be absolutely horrible if competitive players thought in that way, and it would be even worse for casual / semi-competitive players. Good-bye netdecks, good-bye real testing results, good-bye tips articles, sideboarding information and meta guidelines. Good-bye strategy articles, good-bye team games and multiplayer.

Quote from RiverWalker

Subrosian, can you appreciate that from some ethical perspectives what you are doing is dancing around a loophole of enforceability, in order to cheat the system?

When the DCI Floor Rules explicitly document the acceptability of intentional losses, scooping, etc... then how is what we're doing "dancing around a loophole"? The rules state clearly that players may concede, there is no rule against asking a player to concede, how is that "wrong" or "unethical"?

Quote from RiverWalker

serious curiosity, in what ways is he not friendly, and how does it hurt him?

He routinely gets into rules arguments with players, for example, if a player casts Oblivion Ring without clearing indicating a target, he'll call a judge and say that player gestured with their hand towards some incorrect target, and that it's too late to take it back. He caused a 30 minute tournament delay because of that one time.

He's the kind of guy who will bolt his own creature in response to a Fireball and try to argue that it fizzles.

As far as consequences go, people won't give him rides when he needs them, they're hesitant to loan or trade him cards, and tournament organizers are inclined to side with his opponents on "he-said, she-said" rulings because of his reputation.

Quote from RiverWalker

legal or not, strategic forfeit in the way you describe, does corrupt the integrity of the game/competition, and is a form of cheating. that it is not against the "letter of the law" because such an explicit ruling would be unenforceable, does not mean its not cheating and detrimental to the game.

No, that's exactly what it means. If the rules ALLOW something then that something isn't cheating. Otherwise I could arbitrarily say that *anything* is cheating. If you drink a soda during a game, I should label that cheating since the caffeine is clearly *enhancing your performance* and I, as a non-caffeine consumer, am at a disadvantage. Oh you smoke too? Double cheating.

As far as the "integrity" of the competition is concerned, Magic is a game about wizards using their *guile* and *talents* to win a war. If I can convince you to concede without casting a single spell, guess what? I'm a pretty awesome Wizard. You think the planeswalkers the players represent don't have allys? You think they fight every battle to the death? You think Magic tournament are cage matches?

You're sorely misguided.

Quote from RiverWalker

if the social environment is such that it is reasonably expected to get a payoff, then it is ethically the same as if a bargain was explicitly made.

is it not the foundation of any tournament system, that each game is played between two opponents that are wholeheartedly trying to win every single game? and does not each instance of someone NOT following this standard of play, damage the integrity of the competition, reduce the very meaning of winning?

No, the foundation of the tournament system is that we have a structure in which players play out a number of Swiss games. The goal of those games is to make it into Top 8, where players will then play single-elimination in order to win. During the Swiss, should a player become ineligible for Top 8, they are no longer fighting. If that point is reached during pairings, they should scoop prior to games being played.

The tournament system is faulty, period, the better player doesn't always win, the guy who fights it out and has the great heart doesn't always win. Magic is a game with a luck factor at every end. The guy in 7th place gets paired up because, arbitrarily, his opponent won 0.01% more games than the guy in 8th place. The guy in 8th place gets paired down arbitrarily, and now will potentially be usurped by the guy in 10th place who, often, actually lost or drew a whole 'nother round.

The guy in 9th place is often completely screwed over due to some complexity of pairings, and can't get into Top 8.

The reality is that the system we use for Tournaments was never built to handle the number of players we have today. The size of tournaments is insane, when literally making Day Two can come down to *breakers* over actual wins, you have a tournament scene that has exploded. With that comes concessions.

Your idealism is all very noble, but it's hugely flawed, and driven by individualism. You need to let that go if you want to be a serious competitor, we're not in this just for ourselves. At the end of the day, you need friends, you need a team, you need a PLAN if you want to win tournaments, not just because the competition is fierce, but because the sheer *volume* of players, matches, etc... that go into it means that even the best player in the room is often struggling.

Brian Kibler doesn't Top 16 tournaments where he is the best player with the best deck. And he has people on his side.

It's not a perfect competition, at all, so the reality here is no, players can't fight it out every time in Magic. I wish they could, I really do, I wish I could be the idealist and go "OOOOOOOOGHHH FIGHT TO THE DEATH!!!!".

Unfortunately Magic isn't that way. If you sit there claiming you're going to screw people out of Top 8, great, good for you, really, go for it. Will it help you more than it hurts you? Will you be denying more people their dreams, and harming your chances of meeting that guy who gives you that great deck that wins you a Grand Prix, or meeting that team that helps you make Regionals? Probably, but if some misguided Highlander mentality is what does it for you...

well, more power to you

I see people who are playing in drafts talk with their friends when making their picks. I hate that crap, especially when their friends are going around the table seeing what people are picking. If I see anything like that happen I immediately get up, get a refund and leave that shop.

No need to support a hobby shop that allows cheaters to ratings boost by rigging drafts.

Quote from Murderdog

subrosian, If you and you friends think its dick for playing your rounds as they are assigned to you, you and your elitist friends need a reality check. You guys have your little crew or whatever, but playing the games and the matchups as they are given in a tournament is fair and having you and your friends all of a sudden gang up and show disrespect to someone becuase they are just playing the matchups sounds pretty childish. All you and your friends are doing is swaying the tournament in your favor and making it less fair for people not in your group.

If you cannot make Top 8 and I can, and you decide you MUST play it out, 95% of the time you will lose ANYWAY, period. That's not "arrogant" or "elitist" that's a cruel reality called "we practice, quite a bit, more than you do". Unless you believe that God himself has come down and given you some gift that makes you better than people who practice more than you, spend more time with the game than you do, work with better teachers than you do, etc....

In other words, unless you have the arrogance to suggest that you somehow deserve to win more than people who work harder at the game than you do, you shouldn't be expecting the win in the first place. Playing it out creates the possibility of lightning striking, i.e. you win. Why do we have to do that? Why do we have to give you the opportunity to get lucky, instead of the people who worked harder getting what the ultimately earned?

Quote from Xcric

you are everything that is wrong with competitive magic.

Crappy players who show up to PTQs and Grand Prixs, go 1-2 Drop and wreck your breakers for Top 8 are everything that is wrong with competitive Magic. Decks that cost $1000 to assemble because every netdecker on the planet demands them is what's wrong with competitive Magic. Little idiots trying to swipe your bag, whine at you, play incorrectly and have their friend steal your bag while you're in game is what's wrong with competitive Magic.

People who play well and expect a level of respect from their opponent? Yeah? Really? That's what's wrong with Magic?

Quote from emkorial

Two comments:

1: While your goal in tournamanets may be soley to win, when faced with arrogant opponents like you, my goal in the tournamanet shifts to ruining your day. I don't care about my ranking or DCI rating or bye to tournamanets I'm never going to attend. If someone pisses me off/irks me, I derive no greater pleasure than ruining thier day.

2: Deciding you dislike someone, and then pestering/rules lawyering them every chance you get, earns you a one way ticket to getting beat up in the parking lot.

If you think that's how things work in real life, man do you have a rude awakening ahead of you. You're gonna end up in an entry level job, act like an elitist prick to your boss, and then whine why you never get a raise or a promotion and how you are so talented but all the idiot people are getting promoted over you.

I've never had someone whose seen me in person decide that physical violence was something that would go in their favor. Not all Magic players are overweight nerds. And really? That's your solution to players who are better at winning in tournaments? "Oh yeah, I'm gonna beat you up in the parking lot?".

I work in middle management for a Fortune 500 company. Your strawman argument is idiotic, what you're suggesting doing (refusing to drop) is *exactly* like insulting your boss. It's like being asked to transfer funding from your project, which has no chance of success (i.e. you cannot make Top 8) to a project with guaranteed success if it gets your funding. Instead of giving them the funding, you demand that they "fight it out" and ultimately doom both projects.

What do you think upper management does when they investigate why both projects failed? They fire you for hurting the company. Do you think for a moment that the collective of pro gamers is going to show you kindness after you've wasted their group's day by cutting their deck from Top 8? Do you think they're going to do you any favors after you waste not just the player's time who you kept out by sheer luck, but their group's research (many play groups depend on Top 8 appearances not only to get recognition for their decks, but to get vital Top 8 testing).

Look, it works this way in EVERY area of life and it's fairly simple. The people who are in the top 1% of whatever area you want to be involved in (Magic, Poker, whatever industry you work in, etc...) know each other. Through networking, most Magic pros are aware of each other, share a friends base, etc... we know who we are, we talk amongst ourselves.

Now, let's say I go into a season qualified for one tournament of my choice. I head out to a PTQ to grab another qualification so that I can save my tournament pick for later. I'm sitting in a match where, if I win, I'm guaranteed to be in Top 8. If you win, you can't win anything, literally you can no longer make Top 8.

How does that happen? Pairings. Basically you got a bad dice roll and the computer paired you in such a way that you can't make Top 8. Now we have two choices, we can play (which is typically what you do in a casual / fun gaming situation) or you can concede, i.e. "scoop me in". Why would you scoop me in? Because it's the right thing to do. Trust me, that WILL pay off for you if you're planning to spend any amount of time playing competitive Magic.

Now, let's say three months down the road you're at another PTQ and our positions are reversed. Do you know what I'm going to do for you? I'm going to scoop you in. But it gets even better, let's say that you're in that position at a PTQ a month down the road and you're in that position against someone you don't know. I see you there, guess who you're sitting across from? My buddy. Guess what's about to happen? My buddy is about to concede to you, because I owe you one, you understand that we're in this together, that in reality the tournament system is "Us" (the good players) versus "Them" (Wizards, Crappy players, Tournament Organizers, etc...) we're ultimately working together so that, collectively, we the pros do well.

If you don't concede, do you know what will happen? At every point where you need anything, I mean anything, you tap lands wrong, you accidentally play the wrong spell, you say something wrong, you indicate a target in an unclear way, the game state becomes confusing, ANYTHING, you sneeze and drop a card, everyone I know, every single person in my network of Magic players from the noobiest noob I know all the way to Brian Kibler, is going to rules-lawyer you. We're going to call a judge when you get lazy and your hand slips with cards in it below the table. We're going to check your sleeves, we're going to play high-REL rules enforcement to the fullest.

Why? Because you dicked us.

It works this way in every aspect of life, if you're going to sit there and make things hard on us when you have *nothing* to gain by doing so, then we'll gladly make things hard on you. We'll be in your head as though you were a fellow pro in matches, we'll treat things that we normally just don't care about (like Saturday tournaments, $1K events, etc... stuff we play *for fun* that you probably play *for serious*) as though we have to win. Hell, if we have to fill your local hobby shop with pros on an FNM, we'll do it.


Being a dick to the people who, ultimately, you need to do well is foolish. You're already netdecking our decks, you're using OUR pointers to learn to play well, you're following our advice on how to handle tournaments. The cool tricks you learned, the experiences, the things that went well for you, or your friends handed on to you? Those were ours. Those combos? Those were ours, that way you tap, the way you sort lands, even the existence of sleeves? Better thank us. You owe a debt to pro Magic players, so if you're not willing to show us a little gratitude, if you're going to make our grinding experience harder, we're more than glad to take away EVERYTHING from you.

And if you just show the slightest modicum of respect for another human being? If you recognize that a tournament is about more than just you? We're going to make your life in the hobby fantastic, we're more than happy to see to it that you are getting a fun experience out of a game we enjoy.

Quote from LowPlayer

Whoops, that is why Relic of Progenitus is here, or you can just splash black for leyline of void.

So your battle plan now becomes to pack your deck full of low-utility cards in order to push an awkward win condition? Awesome. Any time winning a certain way (mill) requires you to dedicate too much of the deck to protect that condition, you're in a bad way.

Quote from Arborea

Yeah, everything everyone posts on the internet is 100% true.

Right?

You do realize Patrick Chapin is one of the foremost writers and MTG theorists, and that he was the person posting that, right? Not only was he the seed for Next-Level Bant, but he was directly involved in early advocacy and shaping of the non-Tap Out UW Control, which merged with Tapout to become one of the most powerful deck in the format?

I'm not saying Chapin's perfect, he's human, but he does have his finger tightly on the pulse of the MTG world, and is a proven pro-level Magic player. He's right about what he's saying - pros are passionate about winning, but they're also passionate about Magic. There isn't enough prize money, and the odds aren't good enough, to keep Pros playing if they don't care deeply about the game.

The problem with Mark is that most decks running Sparkmage have a way to remove it. The thing that's great about Linvala is that she's basically game-over for Mythic and Naya. If you get out a Turn 3 Linvala in the mirror, you have practically won the game.

Quote from Arborea

If you look at what Richard Garfield wrote and said about Magic at the beginning, and compare the power level of planeswalkers and other modern mythic cards to modern non-mythic cards, it is clear that the game is balanced but only in a limited card pool. Gideon is much less ridiculous when he's one per deck because of availability.

Your ridiculous min-maxing style of uber-competitive play is not the spirit of the game, but it seems to be what the internet is all about. Now go prepare for your next pro event, and leave me to get banned for having a different opinion than the rest of Salvation.

Stop painting yourself as a "victim", no one is getting banned for having a casual mindset. You're writing as though dozens of people don't share your opinion, or you're the last casual Magic player on earth.

What Richard Garfield intended for the game is irrelevant. He designed a kitchen table game on the assumption that people wouldn't open many packs. He was proven wrong the first year the game came out - I was there when people had decks that would literally run two dozen Sinkholes: trust me, Magic was NEVER what people (including Richard) intended.

This was quickly fixed with rules revisions, the development of formats, banned / restricted lists, the development of early Magic theory (even the game designers didn't get how much card advantage mattered, early competitive play helped to make the game balanced by exposing broken cards) these all fixed the game. You owe a great debt to COMPETITIVE players for making the balanced CASUAL game you enjoy.

The game is balanced in every format by the existence of a metagame. By cards alone, the game has always been unbalanced, there are some cards that are better than others, that's part of the game. For every strategy, there is a weakness, in every format, we have to make certain assumptions about the decks, and opponents, we'll be facing and we only have 75 cards to fight every possible other combination of 75 cards. The bigger the format, the more challenging the task.

You may advocated limited, but why post in the thread called "Standard Prices" then? You're NOT being priced out of competitive play, you're kept out of competitive play exactly because you do not share my, and other pros, mindset. It's hard to compete against people who are playing the actual competitive game when you're carrying around a set of personal beliefs like "Gideon should be a 1-of" that aren't printed anywhere in the rulebook.

My point is simply that people either are or are not making that commitment. If you don't want to make that commitment, there's nothing stopping you from enjoying casual events. Every good card shop I know has casual day, non-sanctioned tournaments, EDH, block constructed, and a dozen other types of tournaments where people can just have fun. You can even play at an FNM and simply accept that it's ok to be playing in the lower brackets, that not everyone has to be the player who goes undefeated. What the problem comes down to is that some of these so-called "casuals" want to netdeck, and the prices are out of their commitment range. Since I frankly think it's a bit hypocritical to complain about competitive gamers while being more than happy to borrow their decklists... I simply point out the facts:

Every standard tournament we're seeing some new deck tech, usually something quite affordable (like Ari's Turbolands) and it keeps proving the point: there is room to innovate, and it's not expensive to do so... and yet we keep hearing the same complaint. Too many casual gamers are blaming their losses on the price of cards in Standard rather than doing something about their play skill or working to get a better card pool. It's easier to complain than to do something about it, it's easier to sign an "online petition" or some other nonsense than to develop yourself to be a better player.

Quote from sesstreets

I'm not inherently better than you or anyone else who has 4 jaces, but when you pack your deck full of super powerful cards like TMS, gideon, baneslayer, knights, birds of paridise, and simply use your other card slots as buffers to let you get these cards out before you die makes it an unfair game that favors those who invest more money into their deck.

I typed a long response explaining the ins-and-outs of how I operate, how I play, how I push my theory-driven gaming style to the limits to do things to my opponents. I practice matchups most people don't consider, I was able to win several rounds at my PTQ last week that would take down most UW players, because I understand how to approach unique situations.

But you know what? It won't matter, because you're not playing Magic. You're playing some other card game with a more limited card pool, and I'm the bad guy because I play with the actual card pool. If you don't want to play with superpower, find a new power. Players like Ari with his TurboLands deck, or every winning Jund player on the planet (Eldrazi Jund took down LSV) have found ways to make it work.

If you can't, and you're simply bitter than you're not yet-another netdecker, take an honest look at how you're approaching Magic, and your expectation on your results.

Next-Level Bant, like most Control decks, requires a great deal of skill to play. The thing is that most people, even people who THINK they're good with Control, aren't. They simply play decks like UWr and UW that can accidentally win games, they have never had to fight for their wins.

With NLB, you fight for your wins.

At the PTQ yesterday in Orlando, I fought for my wins against three control decks (UW, MBC and NLB) and beat each of them easily. Not because their card choices were wrong (Nelson's list, a solid disruption list, and Kibler's list respectively) but because they didn't know 100% how to beat me, while I knew exactly how to dismantle their deck.

Kibler is an exceptionally skilled player, if others pick up NLB because of his wins, it will be interesting to basically get byes because of the deck's complexity. Kibler is just on a ridiculous tear through Asia, wrecking people with his swiss army knife of goodness.

Quote from Drizzt_522

.....Elspeth is one of the most important cards in the deck. I think the deck will be attempted, and may still have success, but elspeth is extremely important to the decks success. also, losing noble heirarch won't be enjoyable either, i guess the deck would go 4x birds and 2xelf.

Elspeth and Noble are pretty vital to the deck. In testing against UW Control, we realized one of the best ways to fight NLB is to deny them white mana. You board wipe early to get rid of mana-producers, and you use Spreading Seas / Tectonic edge to keep them from having double white.

Elspeth is THE card against Control, far more dangerous than Vengevine, far more dangerous than, well, anything else. There is no other card in the deck that will rapidly generate wins. Without Elspeth, it becomes dependent on creature-based board position. That's why so many NLB players "on a budget" who skimp on Elspeth cannot beat UW Control. If UW has Elsepth, and you don't, you're in deep trouble.