MTG Salvation

Quote from anwei40

Debates around Knight, for example, are not about whether the card is good or how to use it, but whether Knight is the best way to be doing that thing right now.

This, exactly. KOTR is an absolute house if left unchecked for even a turn or two. He can work magic with your mana, get you into an entire tech land package, and generally he plops down pretty fat.

The problem with him lies in the fact that the meta now is leaning on DRS and other things mainboard that make Knight a not as stellar card. If it shifts away again he's generally an auto include. He's often bigger than Goyf + has tricks, and in this deck still a turn 2 play. The meta shifts, decks shift, Bant shifts. I could pull up an Enchantress list I ran 2-4 years ago and put it next to a list that people play now and you wouldn't even think we're playing the same game let alone same format.

I played my list (from a few pages ago) tonight at an FNM level Legacy (complete decks, Forces around, etc., just a more casual event).

I went 2-1 as follows:

Round 1 - Goblins - 2-1 Win:
Game one he rolled a board state and a half on the play, turn 1 Lackey and things went down hill very fast. Game two I brought in Mages and Revokers, shut off his vials, ramped quickly into Elspeth, started raining blockers and Maze of Ith abusing my Knight of the Reliquary. It was grindy, but I got there pretty easily. Game 3 my board state was insane pretty much all the time, I delayed a turn on a Meddling Mage (as he was sitting on 3 mana) which I was going to call Ringleader on. He played it as expected and went Ringleader x2 and Vial/Mountain on the roll. I dropped it the next turn and named Ringleader, Elspeth kept pumping out infinite blockers until I had a massive board advantage and killed him.

Round 2 - Fish - 1-2 Loss:
I've never seen this deck play so horribly. He also had nuts hands nearly every game, turn 1 Vial both times on the play, and 3/4 lords for openers each time. This wasn't fun, I've never seen the deck play this badly vs. Fish even though I know it's not a terribly great matchup to begin with.

Round 3 - Burn - 2-1 Win:
I didn't know what he was playing going into game one, which I lost. He had 3 PoP in his opener vs. my Tundra/Savannah/Tropical opener. I indeed got burned. Game 2 and 3 I brought in Revokers to shut down Grim Lavamancer, which I saw in my opener each time, and just kept his board clear. Game 3 was especially brutal for him with me going T1 Noble, T2 Geist, T3 Jitte/Equip. It was as good as over then but I compounded it by seeing Oozes as he threw whatever he could in the way of Geist (Lavamancers, Goblin Guides, etc.), fetched smarter for basics and though he'd drop me to 10 quickly I hit far better midrange then him. I also brought in Surgical Extraction and got him off Bolt and Chain Lightning's in separate games.

The deck played about how I expected it, except getting flooded in mana twice vs. fish (in a deck that has been called out for being greedy to begin with, I'll chock it up to bad math). I'm going to try the Stoneforge package soon to see how it goes. I have no real problems with the list as I have it minus a few minor tuning things I'd like to take care of, but it played reasonably well all night. I'd also never played vs. Goblins and the matchup went about how I'd want it to, the deck had a lot of game vs. the list.

Quote from KobeBryan

Or just take out the knights and go geist blade bant style.

I can't think of the slots right now, but a 2 of sfm with jitte, batter skull and a sword would suffice. But that is 5 cards total.

I've kind of been thinking the same thing. Knight is still a house in games w/o DRS but with how popular he is now by the time the knight hits (even if its turn 3/4) or becomes effective DRS has eaten up most of his power. Still fun for tricks or finding a Karakas.

I'm thinking leaving one as a GSZ target though because there are matchups where he is very good, board out vs. DRS and MB GY hate.

Which sword would you run for a tier event?

Quote from anwei40

(And 400 games in the last week? Are you serious? You're playing 6 minute games for 40 hours/week or..??)

A few nights + running events at a shop allowed me to play during the entirety of M14 pre-release minus pairings, and 2 headed giant the following day.

The point I was making is that if you don't blindly play Dryad Arbor because it's Dryad Arbor you might like what you see in the deck. Arbor has a ton of downside (especially in my list) including (but not limited to):

- GG, G/G, or G/G (since G/W is impossible on that play line) is almost never an optimal start for the decks mana base. This is opposed to (the more ideal) Noble play on turn one, or Brainstorming to set the top of the deck up better, shuffle things I don't need away, or curving out correctly. The one counter to this is Ooze in hand vs. Dredge/Reanimator and a few other fringe decks.

- Literally waiting a single turn almost always gets you more value out of your GSZ, if not making it a turn two play for GSZ on 2 (Qasali Pridgemage in many matchups, Ooze in many matchups, Teeg post board, and so on). Knight follows the turn after, Thrun the turn after that (or even turn 3), all of which gives infinitely better value than a Dryad Arbor in most cases. Even GSZ for a Noble on turn 2 can give more value late-early to mid game from a more solid mana production to an extra Exalted trigger.

- It puts you into a vulnerable spot vs. both creature removal and land destruction in a mana base you already argued is greedy (which I'm fine with but this certainly makes it worse).

On your argument for it giving you flexibility vs. Edict effects (Pox), Liliana, or the like your point is semi valid. The sac of the Arbor buys you a turn in a deck capable of swinging for 10+ fairly easily with a single creature the following turn, but many of the lower creatures serve this purpose equally well. If you say it works as a Jitte carry that's also fine, but both of these effects can be done by a card like Lingering Souls which also has built in evasion and additional sac ability. I don't think it's a valid argument with the other vulnerabilities it puts on the table.

I'm not saying I'm flat out right here, I'm saying consider it. In the 400 or so games I've played with this deck over the course of the last week vs. nearly every Tier 1 and many Tier 2 meta decks in the format the 100 or so I've played without Arbor have all A) worked better for me and B) considerably improved the way I see the deck running. If you're gung ho on Dryad Arbor by all means run it, I've not found vs. competent players/people that play decay or path or swords or deed or EE or snapcaster and the combination of many aforementioned/people that own wasteland it to be ideal, ever.

I am also aware of the power GSZ and Arbor can have together. For about a year and a half I mained Nic Fit/Pod Fit variants, but the value I got from Arbor there was many times over the value I get from it in this deck. In those it gave me access to Bayou / GSZ for zero turn one, equaling double Cabal Therapy before or after a swing. It gave me a sac outlet to Phyrexian Tower allowing for turn two Thrun or deed on one. It gave me a target to start a Pod chain. Here it gives me a more vulnerable 1/1 forest which more often than not put me off tempo, which is why I cut it.

Since that time I've been playing primarily heavy control decks, and I generally am quite happy when someone Green Sun's on turn 1 to get a Dryad Arbor as opposed to getting a reasonable threat or card that can break my combo later instead.

Quote from KobeBryan

Ok fine. But since the point of this deck is to criticize that guys decklist, the amount of lands he runs is clearly far too few even with 9 pseudolands. The way the deck is constructed is not a tempo list with so many 3-4 drops. Bant can certainly play fewer lands but it must focus on cheap spells. Delver goyf nimble mongoose but once he starts adding geists elspeth knights he is doing it wrong

I lol'd. At both of you. This list is actually based on a list that Top 4'd a Bazaar of Moxen side, as opposed to all the Bant lists that have been outright winning events of decent size lately.

The point was to turn this fringe deck into something actually competitive, and you lost me at "to many brainstorms." Good luck to ya'll.

And FWIW Dryad Arbor really isn't good in this deck. I cut it three days ago and put a Heath back in and have been loving the way it runs.

Quote from KobeBryan

good luck running 19 lands. I don't count dryad arbor a land. you have 11 cards that are 3-4 CMC. Then you have 4 gsz, which is mana intensive.

I cut a Heath to try the 1x Maze of Ith before the last round of testing. I've also literally never had an issue with mana shorting me once (except in the previously mentioned Dryad Arbor chokes), the Noble's do well. Also at the 4cmc there are only 3 cards + GSZ. I've GSZ'd for Noble's before and the tempo keeps up well, most often my GSZ target is spot removal Qasali or Noble.

40 or so games and never got shorted once. Anything beyond 5 land is effectively useless, unless you're dodging a turn 10 spell pierce. After I have 3 I don't want to draw land. Partially comes from Zoo time, but it's run well, even vs. Wasteland decks.

So after I saw this deck do well at BoM this year I thought I would have fun with it, had most of the cards, and decided to throw it together. Zoo was my first Legacy deck, I quit playing it a few years ago, but I like the tempo it has and fell in love with the tempo potential this deck has.

As a result, this is the list I settled on (after some minor tweaks).



The purpose of this decklist as it sits is to have as much game as possible in G1s without sacrificing tempo or sustain, all while having answers to G1 problems. I cut the Revoker's from the main, made a few other tweaks, and settled on the list you see above. I really like it.

I ran the gambit against the standard SCG meta with a buddy the other day and it went 5 and 4 in G1s, plus it has a ton of game in 2/3. What I was looking for was a deck that can win or at least game most G1s to not get down in 2/3s to start vs. things like Combo or other silly things.

On the play the deck is bonkers. Its a four turn clock often, five consistently. It puts ANT in a horrible spot early on the play or draw by shutting down AdN life fast. It has "trouble" vs. Show and Tell style decks in some situations. Spell Pierce / Daze / Knight can do work though.

Ideal play is T1 Noble, T2 Geist, T3 Elspeth -> Swing for 10. Daze works well here to back up counters.

Cards I'm on the fence about:
Swords to Plowshares - I'm considering (honestly) running Path to Exile here. So many decks run such greedy mana bases these days that it almost makes sense. It does hurt me vs. some stuff but it's something I'm toying with. Clearing the way is good, clearing + them gaining a lot of life (things like turn 3/4 Goyfs) can off my tempo vs. decks that sustain late. The most trouble I've had (especially with this situation) is Deathblade running Lingering Souls and chump blocking Thrun for years while killing off everything else.

Thalia - She swings for 5+ with Elspeth. She trades well with first strike. She slows down combo or removal. She also interacts well with Karakas. At the same time, she's not fetchable, and she's just a 2/1

Daze - I cut Revoker and put Daze here. It protects Elspeth, it can stop combo. It's not bad. It's not amazing. Considering something else here pretty strongly.

Dryad Arbor - BUT! BUT! BUT! Green Sun's! After the hundred or so game's I've played with this deck I've never been overly happy with the Turn 1 GSZ to Dryad Arbor. Other decks, sure. It was great in Pod/Fit, Great in Elves, even good in Zoo (sort of), but here I'm almost always going to rather play a T1 Noble, T1 Brainstorm, or leave T1 Spell Pierce open. On top of that it puts me on GG which is counterproductive to Geist and Clique (not impossible, but not great) coming out T2/T3.

Stuff I won't Cut:
Geist of Saint Traft. He's an absolute all star. He hits insanely hard. He can get bounced back by Karakas. He stacks Exalted triggers and bolts +1 on swings.

Thrun. If Saint T is the all star Thrun is the guy that goes to the Hall of Fame without a lot of fanfare. He's tutorable. He's big. He bounces. He regenerates. He untaps with Maze. Etc.

Thoughts and tips are appreciated, especially on the slots I'm looking into changing. I've also considered running a Tutor/Enchantment board package to play things like Ethersworn.

Quote from movexig

Oh, yes. There have been so many rules changes over the years that people have cried bloody tears over, claiming the game is ruined forever now. And yet, here we are, with the biggest player base ever. Personally, I'd encourage the people who feel offended by this rules change to make good on their threats and quit the game.

I actually did walk away from the dulled down rule changes that were brought about in 6th edition for about 10 years.

I came back when I was told my collection had grown in value roughly 10 times over.

Here's to the incoming Jace the mind Scuplter being a 4 of in every blue deck that plays in eternal formats because it has no downside now. Glad I got my playset early.

Quote from Crimson

How is this GOOD for the game? It's just another complexity factor getting thrown out of the window. This game is slowly dying with decisions such as this. Legacy will be a nightmare, and teaching people about the new stuff will be a major pain in the ass. This is probably the saddest MTG news of the decade.

Wizards must be more worried about Hearthstone than we thought. Dumbing down TCGs worked for them with Pokemon, making the board states less dependent on what is going on everywhere and more about your own battlefield is probably partially financial on their decision tree.

What worries me most about these changes is that they're being put out as a way to make these cards more accessible to players, but to a lot of powerful cards they're going to do the opposite if the end up in competitive play banned lists.

Cards like Gaea's Cradle made you make decisions in deck building, straddling the line between putting too many in a deck causing potential dead draws, and putting enough in a deck to get around cards like Wasteland. In combo oriented creature decks I can't see how this isn't just an automatic 4x now. Being able to tap the one in play a for a ton of mana, play another and tap it for a ton of mana is pretty insane without the state based removal of both.

I see why this change was made, even looked into, and it screams EDH to me. I know people like that format, and I know a lot of my friends play it, and I have no problems with that fact. But that is a format based on a Legendary creature where you're only running singletons anyway, and as a whole I think both the change to Legendary super type cards and the Planeswalker change hurts the legacy format.

That being said, I'm excited to abuse this for a while, but in general I'm not excited to see bonkers things happen that will get cards I enjoy playing with banned; the opposite of more accessibility.

Then again, Elves is only super popular in Europe.

Quote from chaosof99

I don't think that a card they shouldn't have printed becoming a card they shouldn't have printed is too much of a concern for them.

You can say that about a lot of the format though.

By today's standards the legendary rule in standard is very limited (though yes, relevant with things like GoST and crew). By today's standard standards Brainstorm is absolutely bonkers and harkens back to a time where you played blue decks and knew the kids at your lunch table playing Craw Wurms weren't thinking as hard as you.

Just because something is powerful doesn't mean it shouldn't cross the minds of the rules department of WOTC. To quote your own forum tagline, brew ways around it.

Quote from se7enwords

That guy you quoted really try to say a JTMS was a dead draw if your opponent had one??? It was one of the best draws. lol

No kidding. The change is really significant in Legacy, mostly for the planeswalker aspect.

Quote from Viomonk

The real problem is goin to be with stuff like mox opal and flagstones of trokair, where you get to use them and then toss them aside for free. Do you know how much stronger mox opal becomes when you can use one, then play another one replacing the first and use that one?

Same goes for Gaea's Cradle. Now you can tap in combo elves for (say in a reasonable sense) 7, play a Gaea's Cradle, tap for 7, and crop rotation a 3rd out, tapping for 7. Hard cast Emrakul no combo, no mindbreak trap, turn 3-4.

Quote from AttentionDeficitGuy

Okay, I know this is par for the course here on MTGS, but seriously, why all the hate? These rules make Legendaries and Planeswalkers more fun to play! Why does it not make the competitive player happy, now that you can put in multiples of Legends and PWs in your decks with less fear of one being a dead draw?

Because to the competitive player this roughly translates into 70% of Legacy matches being Jace TMS races between Esper, Bant, and BUG decks.

I'm a Legacy player that's been out of standard for about 3 years now, and I wanted more than anything to play this as my return.

The problem I found after a bunch of testing is that it's just to slow for an Aggro deck, at least in my local meta and based on online testing.

I still think mono black is viable, but in this form you cant really get away with playing Geralf's Messenger because it's essentially not viable on turn 3 with your mana base (and even with a good dual mana base its rough).

What also irks me about the UB version of this deck is after some testing you'll realize that you have to get rid of a lot of the 4/5/6 cost creatures that would be absurdly fun to play and replace them with Zombie bears or your pace is just not comparable to the rest of Standard.