I hope it's ok that I post this here, but Fortress Comics and Games is having a $10 Legacy event October 17th at noon. Just thought I'd spread the word.
From what I can remember, lack of offense was a huge downfall. Dreadnought wasn't as good as Goyf because it was a dead card without Stifle, and due to the nature of the deck, the two didn't get paired together consistently enough to replace Tarmogoyf.
Stifle wasn't as good as I wanted it to be, too. Stifle is a reactive card, which goes against the deck as well. In the early turns, the deck is used to tapping out, so holding mana open for Stifle really sucks.
Adding Brainstorm and counterspells could help these problems, but around that point you're playing something closer to Ub DreadStill than this deck.
I've been testing this with some positive results. It uses the Tortured Existence engine from The Nightmare Effect to give the deck a late-game, as well as Iona as a back up win condition.
Why is Triskelion and Devourer better? Because neither one is good by itself in the graveyard with an ooze out? One's pretty bad without an ooze, one's awful without an ooze?
Devoted Druid and Kiki-Jiki are both cards I can see myself casting in certain situations, and ooze is happy to just have one of their abilities while the combo is still being set up.
And it's always been obvious that Loyal Retainers + Emrakul/Iona has been good and you don't even need ooze to make that good.
Please tell me why Triskelion and Devourer are better.
The combo with Kiki-Jiki dies to removal. When you cast Ooze, you have to wait a turn until you can combo off, this gives your opponent time to bolt/Swords the Ooze. You don't need to wait a turn for Triskelion and Devourer, so you can combo off in response to the removal. You could include Anger to get around this, but that's just an additional combo piece needed, which again makes it worse.
In addition, the Kiki-Jiki combo loses to Ghostly Prison and other similar effects.
Bakofried: Game 3, Round 1 against Burn, I Spell Pierced a board sweeper on his third turn, which allowed me to swing for lethal next turn. And both Game 2 and 3 against Zoo in the third round consisted of me slowing him down with Echoing Truth and Rishadan Port until I could amass an army and swing for lethal.
I still think you're underestimating the splash. Testing so far has been very favorable, and the blue cards have saved me several times (3/4 of my wins last week were post-board). I guess I need more testing against storm combo to know how much the match-up improves, as I didn't get paired against the person playing T.E.S. last week, and all my other testing against Storm has been online, which has several flaws.
Sure, Pierce is just a weak against discard and Chant as Mindbreak Trap. But it has two clear advantages. The first is that it provides a mental game. You're opponent does not know your decklist, so when you drop a Volcanic Island, you're opponent won't know if he has to play around Daze or whatever else.
The second advantage is that Spell Pierce doesn't have a timing restriction like Mindbreak Trap. If you have two Traps in hand, and your opponent casts Orim's Chant, you lose. However, with Spell Pierce, you can attempt to counter the spell and still have countermagic in hand. This also lets you counter their set-up spells (combined with REB) , rather than just rely on them comboing off without protection.
The average T.E.S. list plays 4 Silence effects, 4 Duress, and 4 Burning Wish that can grab a Thoughtseize from the board. That's 12 maindeck answers to stop Mindbreak Trap, and they'll all happen before they cast the 3 spells to activate the trap. From the sideboard, they gain more answers, such like Pyroblast or Xantid Swarm.
They have several answers to Thorn of Amethyst, as well, such as Wishing for Shattering Spree/Eye of Nowhere, or casting a bounce spell/Krosan grip that they boarded in. But Thorn at least makes the answers cost more, and combined with mana denial via Port and Wasteland, it could help to slow them down just enough.
@Jamis:
I cannot like that list, for the simple reason that you've weakened your manabase, your draw engine, and your ability to recover from removal to compensate for a single archetype.
I don't understand how splashing blue weakens the manabase any more than a green or black splash. I mean, I'm running 8 basics and 6 Fetchlands, so it's not like I'm now vulnerable to recurring wastelands or Back to Basics.
As for the weakened draw engine, I'm running 30 goblins, so I'm averaging 2 goblins off a Ringleader (math's a little off because it's not factoring in lands in play, creatures in play, number of fechlands used, etc. but bear with me). Now the most Goblins a deck seems to run is 34, which averages to 2.27 Goblins off a Ringleader. So for every 4 Ringleaders cast, I net 1 less Goblin. That is not really a huge difference in my opinion. And that's not taking into account builds that play 3-4 Lightning Bolt for extra removal or builds that splash white for Swords or builds that maindeck Thoughtseize. When considering those decks, I run the same amount of Goblins and have the same strength draw engine.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say I can't recover from removal as well. Can you clarify this?
Also, although the combo match-up is what I have in mind regards to the splash, the splash also improves other match-ups. Midrange decks such as The Rock and certain Survival builds seem to improve thanks to the combo. These are really the only decks I attempt the combo on, since typically Goblin Beatdown is faster, but thanks to all their removal/board sweepers, swinging with goblins becomes difficult. The combo is easily assembled by turn 6 or 7, after they've used their removal to stop the initial onslaught, and wins out-right. I also learned from this weekend that Spell Pierce is really good at countering sweepers in the Burn match-up. Echoing Truth was also pretty good at slowing down Zoo, though I probably owe my thanks more to Rishadan Port.
If you're that obsessed with beating combo, play Fish, or Bant, or CounterTop. Don't gut a Goblins list, and still call it a goblins list.
And I really don't want to have to talk about slow combos that weaken the deck. Both Kiki and Pestermite are horrible topdecks (a situation that you will find yourself in more often due to weakened Ringleaders) and the don't do anything on a empty board more than be a weak dude.
To sum it up:
If storm combo is so big in your meta, play a different deck.
Although there's 4-5 potential Storm combo players in my meta, Goblins also seems to be a pretty good call. Aside from those decks, and 1-2 Zoo players, everything seems to be a positive match-up. Some sort of Bant would probably be the best call, but I've exceeded my budget, and really can't afford the Trops and Tundras right now. Goblins is a much less expensive deck.
I guess you're right that on an empty board, when I'm in topdeck mode, Pestermite and Kiki aren't really the card I want to see as opposed to a Matron or Ringleader. That said, I can't really think of a time when I had a Pestermite in hand and wished it was something else. Aside from that dire situation, Pestermite is never a dead card. It becomes a Cheatyface if you have a vial at 3, it can be Pseudo-removal to help Lackey swing through on turn 3, it can double-block, it's another answer to Moat, etc.
As a T.E.S. player myself, I can tell you that this is not enough. You will be Silenced or Duressed before you can cast Mindbreak Trap, and they have tons of answers to artifacts.
Jamis I don't get why you would splash blue solely for pestermite. It isn't worth it to weaken your manabase just for the kiki pester combo. I'd rather play mono red then Ru goblins.
The splash is mainly for sideboard options, primarily Spell Pierce. There's a good portion of storm combo in my meta, and I don't like to feel like I'm going to auto-lose any match-up, so the combination of countermagic plus the fast clock the deck provides helps in games 2 and 3. The rest of the board is also heavy in blue, as well.
Pestermite is kind of just thrown in since I'm running blue anyway, but the combo does help in the midrange match-ups, and pestermite and Kiki-Jiki are also really good on their own.
U/R Gobbos? Why U/R? Have you thought about running that 1/1 goblin merfolk with ping? Do you have any tournament results?
I've considered Razorfin Hunter, and asked about it a few pages back, but the general consensus seemed to be that Sharpshooter is better, and after playing with Sharpshooter, I agree.
As for tournament results, the only sanctioned event I've been able to take this to so far was an 8-person event earlier today. I went 2-1 in matches (winning 2-1 against burn and Zoo and losing 0-2 against another burn deck). I'm hoping I'll be able to take it to a larger, more competitive event next week. I also have tested against 5-color CounterTop, various Eva Green builds, and UGw Tempo. CounterTop and Eva Green seemed pretty positive, but UGw was much more tough. I tested the Eva Green and Tempo match-ups back when I still played Standstill, though, so I think both match-ups should improve now that I've removed it.
The deck's definitely competitive, but really that's like saying mono-red Goblins is competitive since it's just a 4 card difference maindeck.
I cut the Standstills in favor of more Goblins, which seems to be working well. Other than that and some sideboard changes, it's mostly the same list I posted a few pages back.
I'm not sure about Chameleon Colossus. Two Green seems tough to come by consistently on turn 4 when many of your cards cost double black. Plus the deck already has six cmc4 cards, and I'd be really cautious about replacing Undead Warchief or Strength of Night with Colossus. It would be a huge finisher, no doubt, but I don't know how to fit it in. Ideas?
1 Island
6 Swamp
4 Polluted delta
3 black fetchlands
4 Wasteland
3 Nantuko Shade
2 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hypnotic Specter
3 Tombstalker
4 Stifle
4 Snuff Out
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
From what I can remember, lack of offense was a huge downfall. Dreadnought wasn't as good as Goyf because it was a dead card without Stifle, and due to the nature of the deck, the two didn't get paired together consistently enough to replace Tarmogoyf.
Stifle wasn't as good as I wanted it to be, too. Stifle is a reactive card, which goes against the deck as well. In the early turns, the deck is used to tapping out, so holding mana open for Stifle really sucks.
Adding Brainstorm and counterspells could help these problems, but around that point you're playing something closer to Ub DreadStill than this deck.
edit: here's the thread from a few months ago about the idea. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=262328
1 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Shriekmaw
1 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Krovikan Horror
Protection/Disruption
3 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Tortured Existence
4 Buried Alive
4 Beseech the Queen
Reanimation/Acceleration
4 Dark Ritual
4 Animate Dead
3 Reanimate
Land
9 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
2 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Triskelion
3 Engineered Plague
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Krosan Grip
The combo with Kiki-Jiki dies to removal. When you cast Ooze, you have to wait a turn until you can combo off, this gives your opponent time to bolt/Swords the Ooze. You don't need to wait a turn for Triskelion and Devourer, so you can combo off in response to the removal. You could include Anger to get around this, but that's just an additional combo piece needed, which again makes it worse.
In addition, the Kiki-Jiki combo loses to Ghostly Prison and other similar effects.
The second advantage is that Spell Pierce doesn't have a timing restriction like Mindbreak Trap. If you have two Traps in hand, and your opponent casts Orim's Chant, you lose. However, with Spell Pierce, you can attempt to counter the spell and still have countermagic in hand. This also lets you counter their set-up spells (combined with REB) , rather than just rely on them comboing off without protection.
The average T.E.S. list plays 4 Silence effects, 4 Duress, and 4 Burning Wish that can grab a Thoughtseize from the board. That's 12 maindeck answers to stop Mindbreak Trap, and they'll all happen before they cast the 3 spells to activate the trap. From the sideboard, they gain more answers, such like Pyroblast or Xantid Swarm.
They have several answers to Thorn of Amethyst, as well, such as Wishing for Shattering Spree/Eye of Nowhere, or casting a bounce spell/Krosan grip that they boarded in. But Thorn at least makes the answers cost more, and combined with mana denial via Port and Wasteland, it could help to slow them down just enough.
I don't understand how splashing blue weakens the manabase any more than a green or black splash. I mean, I'm running 8 basics and 6 Fetchlands, so it's not like I'm now vulnerable to recurring wastelands or Back to Basics.
As for the weakened draw engine, I'm running 30 goblins, so I'm averaging 2 goblins off a Ringleader (math's a little off because it's not factoring in lands in play, creatures in play, number of fechlands used, etc. but bear with me). Now the most Goblins a deck seems to run is 34, which averages to 2.27 Goblins off a Ringleader. So for every 4 Ringleaders cast, I net 1 less Goblin. That is not really a huge difference in my opinion. And that's not taking into account builds that play 3-4 Lightning Bolt for extra removal or builds that splash white for Swords or builds that maindeck Thoughtseize. When considering those decks, I run the same amount of Goblins and have the same strength draw engine.
I'm not sure what you mean when you say I can't recover from removal as well. Can you clarify this?
Also, although the combo match-up is what I have in mind regards to the splash, the splash also improves other match-ups. Midrange decks such as The Rock and certain Survival builds seem to improve thanks to the combo. These are really the only decks I attempt the combo on, since typically Goblin Beatdown is faster, but thanks to all their removal/board sweepers, swinging with goblins becomes difficult. The combo is easily assembled by turn 6 or 7, after they've used their removal to stop the initial onslaught, and wins out-right. I also learned from this weekend that Spell Pierce is really good at countering sweepers in the Burn match-up. Echoing Truth was also pretty good at slowing down Zoo, though I probably owe my thanks more to Rishadan Port.
Although there's 4-5 potential Storm combo players in my meta, Goblins also seems to be a pretty good call. Aside from those decks, and 1-2 Zoo players, everything seems to be a positive match-up. Some sort of Bant would probably be the best call, but I've exceeded my budget, and really can't afford the Trops and Tundras right now. Goblins is a much less expensive deck.
I guess you're right that on an empty board, when I'm in topdeck mode, Pestermite and Kiki aren't really the card I want to see as opposed to a Matron or Ringleader. That said, I can't really think of a time when I had a Pestermite in hand and wished it was something else. Aside from that dire situation, Pestermite is never a dead card. It becomes a Cheatyface if you have a vial at 3, it can be Pseudo-removal to help Lackey swing through on turn 3, it can double-block, it's another answer to Moat, etc.
As a T.E.S. player myself, I can tell you that this is not enough. You will be Silenced or Duressed before you can cast Mindbreak Trap, and they have tons of answers to artifacts.
edit:
Of the 3, Thorn of Amethyst is probably the best, imo, and Mindbreak Trap is the worst.
The splash is mainly for sideboard options, primarily Spell Pierce. There's a good portion of storm combo in my meta, and I don't like to feel like I'm going to auto-lose any match-up, so the combination of countermagic plus the fast clock the deck provides helps in games 2 and 3. The rest of the board is also heavy in blue, as well.
Pestermite is kind of just thrown in since I'm running blue anyway, but the combo does help in the midrange match-ups, and pestermite and Kiki-Jiki are also really good on their own.
I've considered Razorfin Hunter, and asked about it a few pages back, but the general consensus seemed to be that Sharpshooter is better, and after playing with Sharpshooter, I agree.
As for tournament results, the only sanctioned event I've been able to take this to so far was an 8-person event earlier today. I went 2-1 in matches (winning 2-1 against burn and Zoo and losing 0-2 against another burn deck). I'm hoping I'll be able to take it to a larger, more competitive event next week. I also have tested against 5-color CounterTop, various Eva Green builds, and UGw Tempo. CounterTop and Eva Green seemed pretty positive, but UGw was much more tough. I tested the Eva Green and Tempo match-ups back when I still played Standstill, though, so I think both match-ups should improve now that I've removed it.
The deck's definitely competitive, but really that's like saying mono-red Goblins is competitive since it's just a 4 card difference maindeck.
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
2 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Siege-gang Commander
4 Pestermite
4 AEther Vial
Land: 22
7 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port
4 Spell Pierce
3 Echoing Truth
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt
I cut the Standstills in favor of more Goblins, which seems to be working well. Other than that and some sideboard changes, it's mostly the same list I posted a few pages back.
4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Putrid Leech
3 Withered Wretch
4 Death Baron
4 Lord of the Undead
2 Cemetery Reaper
3 Undead Warchief
4 AEther Vial
Instants: 7
4 Smother
3 Strength of Night
Land: 21
9 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Bayou
2 Unholy Grotto
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bloodstained Mire
I'm thinking of replacing Smother with Nameless Inversion to combo with Unholy Grotto/Lord of the Undead, but I'm unsure about that right now.
Strength of the Night, however, is absolutely insane. It's just so strong, it's unbelievable. Putrid Leech is also a nice bonus green offers.