Add Sensei's Divining Top. Maybe 2 Umezawa's Jitte as well. I don't really like that Wasteland kills your lich, so this will help in that regard. SDT is also great with Bob, which is a nice bonus.
In a Pox shell, Rotting Rats will probably be the better option since it's a better sacrifice option. In a deck with Dark Rituals, and less need for graveyard antics, the Specter is probably better. Really, it just depends on what the other cards in the deck are.
Thanks for the replies! I like both Spellbreaker Behemouth and Cliffrunner Behemouth, but realistically, I think I should only try to fit in one. Spellbreaker's a 5/5 with cmc 4, which is awesome, and has the added bonus of protecting my Woolly Thoctars and other Spellbreaker Behemouths. However, I think the 5/3 with Lifelink and (maybe) Haste, would be stronger for this deck. The only thing I don't like about Cliffrunner Behemouth is that it dies to lightning bolt. I think I'll test a few Cliffrunner Behemouths, and if I don't like them, I'll switch to Spellbreakers.
I'm not sure if mana-ramp is necessary. I like Harrow, since in addition to ramping into larger creatures, it also pumps Steppe Lynx, but too much ramping and I lose focus on the goal of the deck. I'm going to leave it out for now, but may add it in later, if I feel it's needed.
Incinerate was originally Lightning Helix in this deck, but I switched it for budget reasons. I know Lightning Helixes aren't that expensive, but using Incinerates instead should save me $10 or so. They are also easier to cast, since they can also be paid with RG in addition to RW (This also allows Turn 1 Kird Ape, Turn 2 Forest + Incinerate + swing for 2, which isn't possible with Lightning Helix). I do agree that ideally, Lightning Helix is strictly better in this deck, but I feel Incinerate is a fine budget substitute.
I don't really like Ancient Ziggurat since it has bad synergy with Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, and Cliffrunner Behemouth.
I'm not quite sure why you suggested taking out Steppe Lynx. Sure it's not the best topdeck, but it's still a 2/3 or even a 4/5 for one mana in the early game, and can also make late-game land draws less terrible.
Well, since you have 4 FoW and 4 Vial, and want to spend as little money as possible, I suggest Merfolk. It'll be the cheapest option as far as I can tell, and it'll be a really strong deck, too. You could even use your Sword of Light and Shadow in place of a Jitte.
The reason I'm playing Swords to Plowshares over Path to Exile is because I already own a playset of Swords, but have no Path to Exiles.
I'm not sure about the manabase. I want enough Terramorphic Expanse/Evolving Wild to not only mana-fix, but also to make the most out of Steppe Lynx. However, too many CiPT Lands, and it'll really slow the deck down, defeating the deck's largest Strength.
I also don't know if I should be running more or less burn than I already am. I could cut some creatures for more burn, or remove the incinerates for more creatures, depending on what would be the better option.
As always, suggestions for better Creatures and Spells are very welcome, but please keep suggestions with budget in mind. Thanks!
I don't see the difference between your deck and MBA the same as the difference between your deck and Reanimator. It's more like asking someone with a Reanimator deck that only uses Dragons as reanimation targets, "Why not just play the standard Reanimator list?"
You're using many of the same cards, but in a less efficient way. Your deck lacks a way to control the board, so I don't see why you say its a Control deck. Sure you play discard, but you have no creature control nor are you attacking your opponent's mana base. Your opponent is perfectly capable of building up his side of the board and continuing with his game plan.
The reason I said it looks inconsistent compared to MBA isn't necessarily due to the toolbox set-up, but more because of the ratio of disruption and threats and due to the nature of cards like Liliana's Caress. MBA wins by disrupting it's opponent, then finishing the game quickly before the opponent can recover. Your deck however disrupts it's opponent (the opponents that are disrupted by discard; not every deck in the format is) and then sits with a hand full of discard spells until it can top-deck a finisher. Sure, you can tutor for a way to win the game, but that's slow and gives your opponent time to recover. Cards like Liliana's Caress and The Rack don't do enough damage to warrant inclusion over some of your creature options; The Rack does 0-3 damage per turn early in the game, and then 3 damage per turn late-game, which is like a worse Nantuko Shade. Not to mention cards like Liliana's Caress (as well as your discard spells) are terrible top decks. MBA will top-deck a creature, while you top-deck Liliana's Caress and this will be the difference between winning and losing in many cases*. Liliana's Caress and The Rack are best played at the beginning of the game, but even then, they don't affect board position, which makes them worse than other cards that could be played in their spot.
*Note that when I refer to Liliana's Caress, I also mean Necrogeon Mists, Funeral Charm, and pretty much everything that isn't Tombstalker.
Thanks! Putrid Leech has been awesome every time he's shown up. However, I don't think I'd ever want to run more than just 1.
Reanimate is certainly an option to replace it, since it fills the same role (Goyf #5) and causes less life-loss while also being easier to cast as well. But Leech is also an great turn 2 play, where as Reanimate needs a creature to hit the 'yard first, which I see being very relevant in this deck since it's trying to capitalize on the early game.
I also like that Putrid Leech goes better with Summoning Trap. Using Putrid Leech as Goyf #5 instead of Reanimate also lets you have two creatures out at once, where if you're reanimating your own Tarmogoyf, you can only have one Tarmogoyf out at once; I realize this will only be relevant in very few situations, but the fact that it could be relevant should be taken into consideration.
Overall, I like Reanimate, but in this build, I like Putrid Leech better. In a deck that sacrifices the tempo aspect of the deck for a more long-term plan, Reanimate would probably be the better choice.
I haven't played this deck in a tournament for quite some time, but since my Storm combo deck is no longer legacy legal, I figured this would be the perfect time to bring Eva Green back. I didn't plan on doing a write-up, so I didn't take very good notes, but here's a few things I remember about the match-ups.
Round 1 vs. Mono-black Persecutor Suicide
Game 1, I don't draw many threats; the creatures I do draw get killed by Innocent blood, Gatekeeper, and other creature kill. I lose Game 1.
Game 2, I keep a hand of 2 or 3 land, a Tarmogoyf, a Putrid Leech, 2 Nantuko Shades and possibly another beater. He duresses me turn 1, and I reveal nothing he can take. I then lay a quick beatdown and we move onto game 3.
Game 3, I keep some hand with double Sinkhole, Jitte, Tombstalker, some land and maybe some other card(s). I keep him on one land with Sinkholes and Wastelands. Beatdown follows. I win the round 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Canadian Thresh
I don't remember too much about these games. I know they were pretty exciting to play. I believe in game 1, I disrupt him a lot, but can't follow up with creatures and lose. Game 2, I get turn 1 Hyppie followed by bigger creatures. Game 3 is very back and forth, but I win it at 1 life (feels good). I win 2-1
Round 3 vs. Mono-blue Merfolk
This round was very fast. Game 1, I get turn 1 Nighthawk backed by me killing or forcing him to discard all his creatures. Tombstalker comes online later and he concedes. Game 2, plays out something like Turn 1 Specter, turn 2 Goyf, turn 3 Hymn and Snuff Out making Goyf huge, and winning shortly after. I win 2-0
Round 4 vs. Enchantress
Game 1, I get a bunch of creatures out, but can't swing past Elephant Grass. Eventually, I draw Tamogoyf, swing for a turn and keep making him discard cards until he can't make enough mana for Elephant Grass' cumulative upkeep cost. At that point I swing for way past lethal.
Game 2, I get turn 1 Engineered Plague (Druid) and then beatdown with Goyf while Krosan Gripping an Enchantress's presence. I win 2-0.
Round 5 vs. Zoo
We decide to tie, but play the games for fun anyway. I ended up winning game 1 and 3. IIRC, Tombstalker was an absolute champ both games.
Top 8 vs. UBR Ad nauseum Tendrils Variant
He starts Game 1 with a Duress. I reveal Land, a Nighthawk, a Dark Ritual, a Hymn, and possibly a few other creatures. He takes Hymn. I topdeck Hyppie and play it with Dark Rit. I keep ripping cantrips and land from his hand, and eventually he has a 2-card-hand and can't combo.
At this point, I'm not sure what Tendrils Variant he is since all I saw was an Ill-gotten Gains, some land, and some Cantrips (I thought he might have been UBR Faeries until Hyppie hit IGG). I decide to side in gravehate and side out Snuff Out incase he's playing IGGy Pop. I draw a pretty awesome hand against any other deck, but it lacked discard so I go to 6. I keep a 1 lander with Leyline, Thoughtseize, and double Hymn. I never draw a second land, and he comboes off pretty late in the game (turn 6, or so).
Game 3, I consider keeping Gravehate in, but mulliganing for gravehate seems really bad against him, so I bring in Jitte and 2 Grips (for SDT) instead. I draw something nuts like Dark Rit, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Inquisition, Shade, Land. I rip apart his hand, and then beatdown. I win 2-1.
Top 4 split and I bought a Badlands to try to rebuild my storm deck.
I was extremely happy with how the deck played, and (without trying to sound conceited) I am positive this is the optimal build of the deck (meta-decisions taken into consideration, of course). Hypnotic Specter was MVP, and turn 1 Hyppie was good all day; turn 3 Hyppie was even good. I plan on bringing this deck out a lot more often now, as it seems to be the perfect meta-call right now (tons of Enchantress, very little Zoo, and Merfolk has returned).
I'm not completely sold on Putrid Imp and Withered Wretch either. Imp has some synergy with Unearth and Lord of the Undead, but overall it looks pretty weak compared to your other creatures. Withered Wretch could be hlepful in some matchups, but most of the time, it's just going to be a Grizzly Bears it looks like.
Death Baron is your strongest lord, so you may want to consider adding a fourth in. Hymn to Tourach could also be useful.
I'd remove a Overgrown Tomb for a Forest. You may also want to cut some Swamps for more fetchlands, but I'm not sure if they're needed.
^That's actually not a bad idea if we have enough people (heck, the Gleemax Legacy forums probably only have 10 regulars and they stay somewhat active). I'd join a MI MTG forum.
Also, I'll definitely be there Sunday. Anyone want to go to Evo or Capital City collectibles on Saturday to playtest?*
*I don't remember if Premiere is open Saturdays or not, so I didn't include it. I've never seen anyone play magic there aside from FNM and the Sunday events anyway, so I'm not even sure if that's an option. But yeah, last minute play testing anyone?
If only there were good thrulls printed
At first, it seems we would definitely want it for the potential turn 1:
dark rit --> dark rit --> mind twist
But, really, we can do much more worse things with double dark rit (turn 1 Tombstalker for instance).
So, if it were unbanned where in this deck list would it fit in?
I only ask because I'm thinking of picking up a few copies on the off-chance it becomes available.
I'm not sure if mana-ramp is necessary. I like Harrow, since in addition to ramping into larger creatures, it also pumps Steppe Lynx, but too much ramping and I lose focus on the goal of the deck. I'm going to leave it out for now, but may add it in later, if I feel it's needed.
Incinerate was originally Lightning Helix in this deck, but I switched it for budget reasons. I know Lightning Helixes aren't that expensive, but using Incinerates instead should save me $10 or so. They are also easier to cast, since they can also be paid with RG in addition to RW (This also allows Turn 1 Kird Ape, Turn 2 Forest + Incinerate + swing for 2, which isn't possible with Lightning Helix). I do agree that ideally, Lightning Helix is strictly better in this deck, but I feel Incinerate is a fine budget substitute.
I don't really like Ancient Ziggurat since it has bad synergy with Wild Nacatl, Kird Ape, Loam Lion, and Cliffrunner Behemouth.
I'm not quite sure why you suggested taking out Steppe Lynx. Sure it's not the best topdeck, but it's still a 2/3 or even a 4/5 for one mana in the early game, and can also make late-game land draws less terrible.
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Watchwolf
4 Woolly Thoctar
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Incinerate
Land: 21
4 Terramorphic Expanse
2 Evolving Wilds
6 Plains
5 Mountain
4 Forest
The reason I'm playing Swords to Plowshares over Path to Exile is because I already own a playset of Swords, but have no Path to Exiles.
I'm not sure about the manabase. I want enough Terramorphic Expanse/Evolving Wild to not only mana-fix, but also to make the most out of Steppe Lynx. However, too many CiPT Lands, and it'll really slow the deck down, defeating the deck's largest Strength.
I also don't know if I should be running more or less burn than I already am. I could cut some creatures for more burn, or remove the incinerates for more creatures, depending on what would be the better option.
As always, suggestions for better Creatures and Spells are very welcome, but please keep suggestions with budget in mind. Thanks!
You're using many of the same cards, but in a less efficient way. Your deck lacks a way to control the board, so I don't see why you say its a Control deck. Sure you play discard, but you have no creature control nor are you attacking your opponent's mana base. Your opponent is perfectly capable of building up his side of the board and continuing with his game plan.
The reason I said it looks inconsistent compared to MBA isn't necessarily due to the toolbox set-up, but more because of the ratio of disruption and threats and due to the nature of cards like Liliana's Caress. MBA wins by disrupting it's opponent, then finishing the game quickly before the opponent can recover. Your deck however disrupts it's opponent (the opponents that are disrupted by discard; not every deck in the format is) and then sits with a hand full of discard spells until it can top-deck a finisher. Sure, you can tutor for a way to win the game, but that's slow and gives your opponent time to recover. Cards like Liliana's Caress and The Rack don't do enough damage to warrant inclusion over some of your creature options; The Rack does 0-3 damage per turn early in the game, and then 3 damage per turn late-game, which is like a worse Nantuko Shade. Not to mention cards like Liliana's Caress (as well as your discard spells) are terrible top decks. MBA will top-deck a creature, while you top-deck Liliana's Caress and this will be the difference between winning and losing in many cases*. Liliana's Caress and The Rack are best played at the beginning of the game, but even then, they don't affect board position, which makes them worse than other cards that could be played in their spot.
*Note that when I refer to Liliana's Caress, I also mean Necrogeon Mists, Funeral Charm, and pretty much everything that isn't Tombstalker.
Reanimate is certainly an option to replace it, since it fills the same role (Goyf #5) and causes less life-loss while also being easier to cast as well. But Leech is also an great turn 2 play, where as Reanimate needs a creature to hit the 'yard first, which I see being very relevant in this deck since it's trying to capitalize on the early game.
I also like that Putrid Leech goes better with Summoning Trap. Using Putrid Leech as Goyf #5 instead of Reanimate also lets you have two creatures out at once, where if you're reanimating your own Tarmogoyf, you can only have one Tarmogoyf out at once; I realize this will only be relevant in very few situations, but the fact that it could be relevant should be taken into consideration.
Overall, I like Reanimate, but in this build, I like Putrid Leech better. In a deck that sacrifices the tempo aspect of the deck for a more long-term plan, Reanimate would probably be the better choice.
Here's the decklist (Unchanged from last time, but it's been awhile, so I'll repost it):
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Putrid Leech
3 Tombstalker
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Hypnotic Specter
Non-creature spells:
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff Out
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Other Black Fetchlands
3 Bayou
6 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Engineered Plague
2 Summoning Trap
3 Krosan Grip
2 Umezawa's Jitte
I haven't played this deck in a tournament for quite some time, but since my Storm combo deck is no longer legacy legal, I figured this would be the perfect time to bring Eva Green back. I didn't plan on doing a write-up, so I didn't take very good notes, but here's a few things I remember about the match-ups.
Round 1 vs. Mono-black Persecutor Suicide
Game 1, I don't draw many threats; the creatures I do draw get killed by Innocent blood, Gatekeeper, and other creature kill. I lose Game 1.
Game 2, I keep a hand of 2 or 3 land, a Tarmogoyf, a Putrid Leech, 2 Nantuko Shades and possibly another beater. He duresses me turn 1, and I reveal nothing he can take. I then lay a quick beatdown and we move onto game 3.
Game 3, I keep some hand with double Sinkhole, Jitte, Tombstalker, some land and maybe some other card(s). I keep him on one land with Sinkholes and Wastelands. Beatdown follows. I win the round 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Canadian Thresh
I don't remember too much about these games. I know they were pretty exciting to play. I believe in game 1, I disrupt him a lot, but can't follow up with creatures and lose. Game 2, I get turn 1 Hyppie followed by bigger creatures. Game 3 is very back and forth, but I win it at 1 life (feels good). I win 2-1
Round 3 vs. Mono-blue Merfolk
This round was very fast. Game 1, I get turn 1 Nighthawk backed by me killing or forcing him to discard all his creatures. Tombstalker comes online later and he concedes. Game 2, plays out something like Turn 1 Specter, turn 2 Goyf, turn 3 Hymn and Snuff Out making Goyf huge, and winning shortly after. I win 2-0
Round 4 vs. Enchantress
Game 1, I get a bunch of creatures out, but can't swing past Elephant Grass. Eventually, I draw Tamogoyf, swing for a turn and keep making him discard cards until he can't make enough mana for Elephant Grass' cumulative upkeep cost. At that point I swing for way past lethal.
Game 2, I get turn 1 Engineered Plague (Druid) and then beatdown with Goyf while Krosan Gripping an Enchantress's presence. I win 2-0.
Round 5 vs. Zoo
We decide to tie, but play the games for fun anyway. I ended up winning game 1 and 3. IIRC, Tombstalker was an absolute champ both games.
Top 8 vs. UBR Ad nauseum Tendrils Variant
He starts Game 1 with a Duress. I reveal Land, a Nighthawk, a Dark Ritual, a Hymn, and possibly a few other creatures. He takes Hymn. I topdeck Hyppie and play it with Dark Rit. I keep ripping cantrips and land from his hand, and eventually he has a 2-card-hand and can't combo.
At this point, I'm not sure what Tendrils Variant he is since all I saw was an Ill-gotten Gains, some land, and some Cantrips (I thought he might have been UBR Faeries until Hyppie hit IGG). I decide to side in gravehate and side out Snuff Out incase he's playing IGGy Pop. I draw a pretty awesome hand against any other deck, but it lacked discard so I go to 6. I keep a 1 lander with Leyline, Thoughtseize, and double Hymn. I never draw a second land, and he comboes off pretty late in the game (turn 6, or so).
Game 3, I consider keeping Gravehate in, but mulliganing for gravehate seems really bad against him, so I bring in Jitte and 2 Grips (for SDT) instead. I draw something nuts like Dark Rit, Hymn, Thoughtseize, Inquisition, Shade, Land. I rip apart his hand, and then beatdown. I win 2-1.
Top 4 split and I bought a Badlands to try to rebuild my storm deck.
I was extremely happy with how the deck played, and (without trying to sound conceited) I am positive this is the optimal build of the deck (meta-decisions taken into consideration, of course). Hypnotic Specter was MVP, and turn 1 Hyppie was good all day; turn 3 Hyppie was even good. I plan on bringing this deck out a lot more often now, as it seems to be the perfect meta-call right now (tons of Enchantress, very little Zoo, and Merfolk has returned).
I'm not completely sold on Putrid Imp and Withered Wretch either. Imp has some synergy with Unearth and Lord of the Undead, but overall it looks pretty weak compared to your other creatures. Withered Wretch could be hlepful in some matchups, but most of the time, it's just going to be a Grizzly Bears it looks like.
Death Baron is your strongest lord, so you may want to consider adding a fourth in. Hymn to Tourach could also be useful.
I'd remove a Overgrown Tomb for a Forest. You may also want to cut some Swamps for more fetchlands, but I'm not sure if they're needed.
edit: Cemetery Reaper?
Also, I'll definitely be there Sunday. Anyone want to go to Evo or Capital City collectibles on Saturday to playtest?*
*I don't remember if Premiere is open Saturdays or not, so I didn't include it. I've never seen anyone play magic there aside from FNM and the Sunday events anyway, so I'm not even sure if that's an option. But yeah, last minute play testing anyone?