I wouldn't be surprised at all if this thing made its way into constructed formats, this thing seems tailor-made for control decks.
In casual? It may actually be a bit worse simply due to the higher % of artifact hate thrown around at the typical table. But still fantastically cool.
As a casual player I won't attempt to comment on its Standard viability, but in big old casual multi-player games this thing is a complete animal.
One of its strongest aspects is its sleeping nature. As it does not do anything immediately, it is less likely to be an early target for Disenchant-like effects, raising its chances that it is going to trigger. And then it triggers once, twice, three times and suddenly starts taking over the game. Someone does finally blow it up, but you just want HAM with beasts and lifegain and counters (oh my). Thank you card advantage.
In terms of building around it? Well that's the other great thing about it; if you play green, it just happens to work in your deck. You don't have to build around it, it can win games by itself - which IMO is the definition of Mythic rarity. But if you did want to build around it....its splashable! I can start spitting out combos with it, but eventually I'll hit the character limit for the post.
Long story short, I am certain in that this thing is going to become a staple in my play group sooner than later, and I will learn to both love and hate it equally.
I would play at least 2 Mirrorweave in here. You have 10 0/0s to target (and 3 recursion avenues) so you can drop an one-sided Wrath on everyone else. I think it is a better emergency card myself than Evacuation, as this one can also kill when you copy your buddy's Primeval Titan.
I'd probably also drop 2 forests for 2 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood. It's slow, but 22 of your creatures benefit from it.
Also, if Fertilid is giving you problems (they have been hit-or-miss for me), you may want to give the new Gyre Sage a shot. It is probably a touch faster, and more explosive for both mana and damage.
Great review Cz, this was a very fun read and right on point. I hope you don't mind me piggy-backing on your idea, but I don't think the forum needs another review thread.
In terms of underwhelmers, I agree on...
- Gidoen, Champion of Justice: He just kind of bores me, basically a huge non-evasion vanilla beatstick / attack sponge. The original was so much more interesting.
- Simic Manipulator: The card has been done better too many times already. No thanks.
- Lord of the Void: I agree that this card's biggest flaw are the alternate choices at your disposal instead of it. Wanted to be printed 5 years ago.
- Obzedat, Ghost Council: This card was made for Standard/1v1 play. I actually have to believe that part of it's design was to be a panacea for Standard players complaining about the high volume of multi-player friendly cards of late.
- Sunhome Guildmage: Another card that was IMO explicitly built for 1v1, but even for 1v1 I believe there are too many superior options at 2CMC.
- Biovisionary: Not my kind of card. Though I will give him brownie points for the brokeness with Aluren. Of course if I did this I'd never be allowed back to my group table again.
- Urban Evolution: Would it really kill Wizards to make a 4CMC draw 3 cards card ever again? It is 2 colors after all, 1GUU can't really be broken in Standard can it? Man, this card should have been printed in Dissension, it would have been 4CMC then. And awesome.
- Duskmantle Seer: Do not get the love for this guy. Every test of this card I read is either 'It is not reliable at all' or 'I won mor with it!'. If it was a 50-cent card it may be fun to stick it into a deck that manipulates the top card in player's libraries, but at $10 it kind of offends me.
Some stuff that I think may be better than you suspect...
- Battalion. Ok, it is weak in multi-player, but...it challenges me to really try to make weenies work. Actually, this and Immortal Servitude together spark my intrigue. Team it up with goofy stuff like Lightning Coils, super cheap hasters and CA-generators, and you've got a weenie deck that can hit hard then quickly recuperate from Wrath. Alright I don't quite by it myself, but I'd be damned if I didn't try it. On a related note, Assemble the Legion is a strong enough card to build around and it was specifically made to trigger any Battalion effect you'd like.
- Gyre Sage: I was poo-pooing this gal at first as well, but the more I look at her the more I appreciate her flexibility (zing). I think the key is that she should not be looked at through the lens of being a classic ramp critter. In a vacuum, she won't give you huge mana early, but she can get you huge mana eventually. In the interim she is a 2/3 active on turn 3 and a 3/4 active on turn 4. Kind of nice actually that she can switch modes when you want her to, and her being a splashable bear just adds to that flex. But move her from the vacuum to the proper theme (i.e. "abuse +1/+1 counters") and she quickly becomes either a huge threat or mana engine at just 2 mana that such decks haven't really had access to before. And if that deck also happens to grant vigilance, then all the better.
- Fathom Mage: I pretty much agree with you, but what I find interesting about her is that she gives those aforementioned +1/+1 counter deckc card draw on a critter that is both cheaper than normal, is not mana intensive, and does not eat those +1/+1 counters you'd prefer to hold on to. I'll try her out.
- Merciless Eviction: I don't think I've played a game of magic in years where I wish I couldn't exile all of something. This outright screws any variety of permanent recursion I am bound to face in just about every game. It is also easier to make this one-sided than Final Judgment, and sometimes Austere Command.
- Thespian's Stage: The reason this card will hold its' value is because it can immediately tap for colorless mana, which makes its slow versatility far more palatable. It won't ever explode like Vesuva in 12-post, but it also isn't supposed to.
Stuff I think you missed, to an extent at least..
- Cipher, because of Bitterblossom and the like. You put it on a dink evasion token and you essentially guarantee card advantage. I.e. you either trigger it twice right then and there, or they are forced to waste a removal spell on your 1/1 faerie token in response.
- Biomass Mutation: I am struggling to think of any other U alpha-strike sorcery/instant. That is worth something.
- Hellraiser Goblin: A 3CMC creature giving all creatures haste can't be overlooked, even with a drawback. Option for decks that can't properly set up Anger and don't want to waste a slot on Fires/et al.
- Keymaster Rogue: Because ninjas are fun, that's why! Ok ok, it sucks.
- Mugging: Cool little burn card with a very relevant alternate ability, though I admit I may just be in love with the design of it.
- Primal Visitation: Haha no, I just wanted an opportunity to point out one of the worst designed cards I've seen in a long time. Man does Gruul hate card advantage.
- Skarrg Guildmage: I think he may be my 2nd favorite guildmage in the set behind Vizkopa. Both abilities are very relevant and each can individually win you the game in 2HG / kill someone in Chaos. Just watch out for those Starstorms and the like.
Well, not really. Spawnwrithe multiplied 2/2 much earlier in the game and was a rare. This seems like just an upgraded version. Not very mythic if you ask me
Except Spawnwrithe can easily be blocked and killed by a lot of creatures turn 4.
Bingo. Spawnwrithe is a super fun card, but it needs support to reliably get its ability to pop the first time. A 7/7 trampler does not need such help, and that is why he is a mythic.
7/7 for 7 stopped being good a very, very long time ago.
Throwing a non-mythic ability on it doesn't make it playable - or mythic.
Bad, bad design.
Only pointing out his size-to-cost totally ignores his game-breaking ability, basically missing the point of the card. Spawnwrithe was 2 power trampling for 3 mana and HAD to be rare because of that ability. You hit just once, it starts to really get out of control.
Anyway, this guy is mythic likely because of both limited and casual where said ability eats banana sandwiches. I greatly look forward to tag-teaming him with stuff like Sneak Attack, Lightning Greaves, Momentous Fall, Kiki-Jiki, et. al. And you'll never hear me complain that he'll cost a whopping $1 each.
Yes, I know that the exiling mode of Selesnya Charm is not as good as is Swords to Plowshares, but does its versatility make it a better card overall, or is StP still the better card even after taking the charm's other two modes in account?
Depends on what else is in the deck. I would say that if you deck...
- Has other reliable creature removal, the versatility will be a huge plus
- Has significant combo benefit from the +2/+2 trample (Cold-Eyed Selkie, etc.) or the 2/2 flash-vigilant token (Eldrazi Monument, etc.), it'll make the deck generally more threatening.
Try it out, I suspect you'll end up having a lot more fun with it. You know what STP does and how awesome it is, but it's never going to surprise anyone.
To me, a one cost mana guy has to make mana on turn 2 to be useful. It's hard for me to believe that every legacy game has a land in the yard on that turn, especially if your opponent saw you play this guy.
I said above I wasn't sure about his other abilities, I'm questioning his reliability as a mana guy.
I tend to agree with you micro, he is not nearly as reliable as something like Birds of Paradise or Noble Hierarch. Sure there are some builds out there (ones that like to pour cards into your own yard) that can make him more reliable, but I don't think he can be considered a constant mana source. And I fully agree that in order for him to be real ramp, that mana has to be available on turn 2 without expending any resources to make it so.
Now that doesn't mean he won't see play in constructed formats, it just implies that he'll end up playing a lot differently can the aforementioned BoP or NH.
Personally I read him more like "Interfere with any graveyard recursion strategies or eat useless stuff out of your own yard, and every time you do you get a very useful side effect."
In my experience Desecration Demon is just awful. There are so, so many cards in the format that embarrass him ... Lingering Souls and any other multiple-token maker, Gravecrawler, anything with undying, Thragtusk, Moorland Haunt, etc.
If you have a Demon out, your opponent effectively has control over your some or all of your combat step (depending on whether he is your only guy). They can make him "attack" into whatever chump they want (flying irrelevant), and they can make him "block" whatever their worst guy is when they attack. The degree of control over your play decisions that this offers to your opponent will be enough for them to win the game in many circumstances. This card is bad. So, so bad. Unload them on people who don't understand this ASAP.
If you ARE dead set on playing him, at least run Rest in Peace main deck.
Such semi-sweep makes it extremely difficult for the cards you mention above to keep up with him indefinitely. Sooner than later they will NOT be able to sacrifice something to him, and you attack with your enormous flyer.
Even then, you don't JUST need semi-sweep because of the sacrifice timing:
"At the beginning of each combat, any opponent may sacrifice a creature"
Well time spot-removal (like Annihilating Fire on their Gravecrawler) can totally disrupt your opponent's sacrifice plans.
Now if you wanted to make the argument that the fact you'd really need to build around him to get him to shine makes him non-chase, I could definitely buy that. But getting him to shine is pretty easy.
*****
Anywho, back to the subject of sleepers (which I personally define as stuff you can easily pick up for less than $3 each but will eventually become chase)
- Ash Zealot: Strikes me as a staple in virtually an mono-red Modern or Standard deck going forward. Why she's only $2.50>$3 I can't figure out (maybe its that stank look on her face?)
- Cryptborn Horror: This one is a bit of a reach as it's useless by itself, but in just about any B, R or B/R aggro build it has a very good chance of being a 3/3 trampler for 3 mana and possibly a good chance of being a 4/4+ pretty early. Really curious to hear about people's play-testing of this guy.
Only one not mentioned on my list is Desecration Demon. This card is VERY good in nearly every match, and only gets boarded out against tokens. Watch this card, for real. You can sig me if you feel it necessary.
Finally, I've waiting for someone to mention him. This thing is a complete bomb, and its 'drawback' is easily nullified by black and red's ability to kill creatures easily
Because the uncounterable portion is irrelevant in the matches where you need a wrath effect.
Say this to my multi-player group then please, as I fully expect this card to become a staple in our casual group (and likely many others).
In multi-player, critter sweeps are the most common game changing effects, often a must-counter. This totally flips that dynamic on its head.
Granted I know you guys are referring more to its Standard impact, however you should at least appreciate what this just did in other formats.
On a side note, I agree with the many others in this thread that the printing of all of these new staple "Can't be countered" cards opens the door for highly quality counters to finally return to Standard.
Well, I guess I know the next fatty going into my Natural Order / Momentous Fall deck. Hahaha, Momentous Fall may be too dangerous with it, I could deck myself too quickly.
Definitely a very solid deck here. I don't think you 'have' to really change anything, but I'll throw some other options out there than may help round out the deck's abilities.
Altar's Reap is another nice sac outlet if you find yourself in the need of more (or less of some other effect). You could use a bit more card draw to back up the Disciple. Also, I would probably run Zealous Conscripts in place of Act of Treason. Its flexibility to steal permanents is terrific, plus it is a creature that can also be sac'd for an effect.
The lynchpin in here could be Mimic Vat though. Everything is dying; your creatures, theirs, the guy at the other table...so many delicious targets to choose from, it goes HAM in decks like this.
Oh yeah, and then Planechase gave you this sucker too: Mass Mutiny
In casual? It may actually be a bit worse simply due to the higher % of artifact hate thrown around at the typical table. But still fantastically cool.
One of its strongest aspects is its sleeping nature. As it does not do anything immediately, it is less likely to be an early target for Disenchant-like effects, raising its chances that it is going to trigger. And then it triggers once, twice, three times and suddenly starts taking over the game. Someone does finally blow it up, but you just want HAM with beasts and lifegain and counters (oh my). Thank you card advantage.
In terms of building around it? Well that's the other great thing about it; if you play green, it just happens to work in your deck. You don't have to build around it, it can win games by itself - which IMO is the definition of Mythic rarity. But if you did want to build around it....its splashable! I can start spitting out combos with it, but eventually I'll hit the character limit for the post.
Long story short, I am certain in that this thing is going to become a staple in my play group sooner than later, and I will learn to both love and hate it equally.
Ultimately it'd probably go into a deck with stuff like Venser, the Sojourner, Flash, Tradewind Rider and the aforementioned Reveillark, Conjurer's Closet, Cloudshift, et al
I would play at least 2 Mirrorweave in here. You have 10 0/0s to target (and 3 recursion avenues) so you can drop an one-sided Wrath on everyone else. I think it is a better emergency card myself than Evacuation, as this one can also kill when you copy your buddy's Primeval Titan.
I'd probably also drop 2 forests for 2 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood. It's slow, but 22 of your creatures benefit from it.
Also, if Fertilid is giving you problems (they have been hit-or-miss for me), you may want to give the new Gyre Sage a shot. It is probably a touch faster, and more explosive for both mana and damage.
In terms of underwhelmers, I agree on...
- Gidoen, Champion of Justice: He just kind of bores me, basically a huge non-evasion vanilla beatstick / attack sponge. The
original was so much more interesting.
- Simic Manipulator: The card has been done better too many times already. No thanks.
- Lord of the Void: I agree that this card's biggest flaw are the alternate choices at your disposal instead of it. Wanted to be printed 5 years ago.
- Obzedat, Ghost Council: This card was made for Standard/1v1 play. I actually have to believe that part of it's design was to be a panacea for Standard players complaining about the high volume of multi-player friendly cards of late.
- Sunhome Guildmage: Another card that was IMO explicitly built for 1v1, but even for 1v1 I believe there are too many superior options at 2CMC.
- Biovisionary: Not my kind of card. Though I will give him brownie points for the brokeness with Aluren. Of course if I did this I'd never be allowed back to my group table again.
- Urban Evolution: Would it really kill Wizards to make a 4CMC draw 3 cards card ever again? It is 2 colors after all, 1GUU can't really be broken in Standard can it? Man, this card should have been printed in Dissension, it would have been 4CMC then. And awesome.
- Duskmantle Seer: Do not get the love for this guy. Every test of this card I read is either 'It is not reliable at all' or 'I won mor with it!'. If it was a 50-cent card it may be fun to stick it into a deck that manipulates the top card in player's libraries, but at $10 it kind of offends me.
Some stuff that I think may be better than you suspect...
- Battalion. Ok, it is weak in multi-player, but...it challenges me to really try to make weenies work. Actually, this and Immortal Servitude together spark my intrigue. Team it up with goofy stuff like Lightning Coils, super cheap hasters and CA-generators, and you've got a weenie deck that can hit hard then quickly recuperate from Wrath. Alright I don't quite by it myself, but I'd be damned if I didn't try it. On a related note, Assemble the Legion is a strong enough card to build around and it was specifically made to trigger any Battalion effect you'd like.
- Gyre Sage: I was poo-pooing this gal at first as well, but the more I look at her the more I appreciate her flexibility (zing). I think the key is that she should not be looked at through the lens of being a classic ramp critter. In a vacuum, she won't give you huge mana early, but she can get you huge mana eventually. In the interim she is a 2/3 active on turn 3 and a 3/4 active on turn 4. Kind of nice actually that she can switch modes when you want her to, and her being a splashable bear just adds to that flex. But move her from the vacuum to the proper theme (i.e. "abuse +1/+1 counters") and she quickly becomes either a huge threat or mana engine at just 2 mana that such decks haven't really had access to before. And if that deck also happens to grant vigilance, then all the better.
- Fathom Mage: I pretty much agree with you, but what I find interesting about her is that she gives those aforementioned +1/+1 counter deckc card draw on a critter that is both cheaper than normal, is not mana intensive, and does not eat those +1/+1 counters you'd prefer to hold on to. I'll try her out.
- Merciless Eviction: I don't think I've played a game of magic in years where I wish I couldn't exile all of something. This outright screws any variety of permanent recursion I am bound to face in just about every game. It is also easier to make this one-sided than Final Judgment, and sometimes Austere Command.
- Thespian's Stage: The reason this card will hold its' value is because it can immediately tap for colorless mana, which makes its slow versatility far more palatable. It won't ever explode like Vesuva in 12-post, but it also isn't supposed to.
Stuff I think you missed, to an extent at least..
- Cipher, because of Bitterblossom and the like. You put it on a dink evasion token and you essentially guarantee card advantage. I.e. you either trigger it twice right then and there, or they are forced to waste a removal spell on your 1/1 faerie token in response.
- Biomass Mutation: I am struggling to think of any other U alpha-strike sorcery/instant. That is worth something.
- Hellraiser Goblin: A 3CMC creature giving all creatures haste can't be overlooked, even with a drawback. Option for decks that can't properly set up Anger and don't want to waste a slot on Fires/et al.
- Keymaster Rogue: Because ninjas are fun, that's why! Ok ok, it sucks.
- Mugging: Cool little burn card with a very relevant alternate ability, though I admit I may just be in love with the design of it.
- Primal Visitation: Haha no, I just wanted an opportunity to point out one of the worst designed cards I've seen in a long time. Man does Gruul hate card advantage.
- Skarrg Guildmage: I think he may be my 2nd favorite guildmage in the set behind Vizkopa. Both abilities are very relevant and each can individually win you the game in 2HG / kill someone in Chaos. Just watch out for those Starstorms and the like.
EDIT: Forget Crowned Ceratok, I totally forgot about Bramblewood Paragon
Bingo. Spawnwrithe is a super fun card, but it needs support to reliably get its ability to pop the first time. A 7/7 trampler does not need such help, and that is why he is a mythic.
He shall rule many a kitchen table.
Only pointing out his size-to-cost totally ignores his game-breaking ability, basically missing the point of the card. Spawnwrithe was 2 power trampling for 3 mana and HAD to be rare because of that ability. You hit just once, it starts to really get out of control.
Anyway, this guy is mythic likely because of both limited and casual where said ability eats banana sandwiches. I greatly look forward to tag-teaming him with stuff like Sneak Attack, Lightning Greaves, Momentous Fall, Kiki-Jiki, et. al. And you'll never hear me complain that he'll cost a whopping $1 each.
Depends on what else is in the deck. I would say that if you deck...
- Has other reliable creature removal, the versatility will be a huge plus
- Has significant combo benefit from the +2/+2 trample (Cold-Eyed Selkie, etc.) or the 2/2 flash-vigilant token (Eldrazi Monument, etc.), it'll make the deck generally more threatening.
Try it out, I suspect you'll end up having a lot more fun with it. You know what STP does and how awesome it is, but it's never going to surprise anyone.
I tend to agree with you micro, he is not nearly as reliable as something like Birds of Paradise or Noble Hierarch. Sure there are some builds out there (ones that like to pour cards into your own yard) that can make him more reliable, but I don't think he can be considered a constant mana source. And I fully agree that in order for him to be real ramp, that mana has to be available on turn 2 without expending any resources to make it so.
Now that doesn't mean he won't see play in constructed formats, it just implies that he'll end up playing a lot differently can the aforementioned BoP or NH.
Personally I read him more like "Interfere with any graveyard recursion strategies or eat useless stuff out of your own yard, and every time you do you get a very useful side effect."
Did you happen to play things like, say, Mutilate, Electrickery, Bonfire of the Damned, Thundermaw Hellkite, Magmaquake or Flames of the Firebrand along side of it?
Such semi-sweep makes it extremely difficult for the cards you mention above to keep up with him indefinitely. Sooner than later they will NOT be able to sacrifice something to him, and you attack with your enormous flyer.
Even then, you don't JUST need semi-sweep because of the sacrifice timing:
"At the beginning of each combat, any opponent may sacrifice a creature"
Well time spot-removal (like Annihilating Fire on their Gravecrawler) can totally disrupt your opponent's sacrifice plans.
Now if you wanted to make the argument that the fact you'd really need to build around him to get him to shine makes him non-chase, I could definitely buy that. But getting him to shine is pretty easy.
*****
Anywho, back to the subject of sleepers (which I personally define as stuff you can easily pick up for less than $3 each but will eventually become chase)
- Ash Zealot: Strikes me as a staple in virtually an mono-red Modern or Standard deck going forward. Why she's only $2.50>$3 I can't figure out (maybe its that stank look on her face?)
- Cryptborn Horror: This one is a bit of a reach as it's useless by itself, but in just about any B, R or B/R aggro build it has a very good chance of being a 3/3 trampler for 3 mana and possibly a good chance of being a 4/4+ pretty early. Really curious to hear about people's play-testing of this guy.
Finally, I've waiting for someone to mention him. This thing is a complete bomb, and its 'drawback' is easily nullified by black and red's ability to kill creatures easily
Say this to my multi-player group then please, as I fully expect this card to become a staple in our casual group (and likely many others).
In multi-player, critter sweeps are the most common game changing effects, often a must-counter. This totally flips that dynamic on its head.
Granted I know you guys are referring more to its Standard impact, however you should at least appreciate what this just did in other formats.
On a side note, I agree with the many others in this thread that the printing of all of these new staple "Can't be countered" cards opens the door for highly quality counters to finally return to Standard.
If your opponent has AoJ out in play, you can't sac the creature to DoB, meaning you don't get the card draw & life gain.
Altar's Reap is another nice sac outlet if you find yourself in the need of more (or less of some other effect). You could use a bit more card draw to back up the Disciple. Also, I would probably run Zealous Conscripts in place of Act of Treason. Its flexibility to steal permanents is terrific, plus it is a creature that can also be sac'd for an effect.
Other great sac outlets include Greater Gargadon, Attrition, Caldera Hellion (could answer your Pyroclasm question), Diabolic Intent and Goblin Bombardment. You really have a ton of options here.
The lynchpin in here could be Mimic Vat though. Everything is dying; your creatures, theirs, the guy at the other table...so many delicious targets to choose from, it goes HAM in decks like this.
Oh yeah, and then Planechase gave you this sucker too: Mass Mutiny
Cheers