I would suggest some Authority of the Consuls sb or even mainboard if Copycat and mardu are really good in your area...
Honestly; with all the removal the Copycat Matchup is pretty cake.
The ones that can be a problem are the ones that shift off the Combo and become Planeswalker Control decks, but even those tend to not be too bad but they can ultimately out grind.
Typically you see this in the 4 Color Variations of Copycat, they shift to a completely different style of deck, and if you guess wrong and sideboard wrong, you can lose just off that mistake.
Mardu is also not that bad at all with the updated list my buddy took.
The main deck that has been giving me the most trouble with my lists is Jund Energy, or the other Energy types of decks like GR Pummeler and such.
But with the newest list that my buddy Ran, I think it'll be better VS that even.
How has kalitas been? I'm constantly in the situation where I cast it and he instantly dies and against vehicles I take an extra 3 damage for my effort. And when I wait to at least get a zombie with a removal spell the extra body rarely helps matters.
At only 2 copies, it's been fine. It comes down when I need it, it's still good VS the Delirium Decks. Necessary Life Gain. Works really great with Ballista and Fatal Push.
Glad to see that a CRUEL Control Thread still exists...
...the old one was Locked and Archived
Anyhoo; haven't been on the forums in a long time...
Haven't played Modern in about 10 months...
The "CRUEL" itch has grown unbearable, so it's time to get back into it again.
Due to a MOVE - some of my Modern cards are still in storage; so I won't be able to get access to them for a few months.
However; I'm happy with this list, don't think I'd change it up too much...
1.) Draw Go -- It's very very CONTROL oriented. My goal with my list is to take down my Shop's Event every week. I don't expect to be attending any PTQs or PPTQs or anything larger. So some of the decisions in my main are based on my Local Meta. With that said; I think you can get away with a Draw Go uber Old Fashioned Control list if you're in a smaller - "KNOWN" Meta. If you're in more of a unknown meta; I would consider a Hybrid of Cruel Control with the Gurmag/Tasigur/Tombstalker strategy along with it. Just my opinion...
2.) Chandra -- So initially I had the Pyromaster in my MAIN; she proves to be Solid on the UP TICK VS alot of decks that have Creatures with 1 toughness. Sure, alot of times she doesn't last long, but she can't last long... If she does; then you ultimate her and potentially cast CRUEL for Free THREE times. Pyromaster gives you a way out if you get Blood Mooned as well. With that said; I opted to switch it around and put Pyromaster in the Side and Firebrand in the main. Simply to cast my spells and get copies... Maybe Cruels; but say getting a Terminate + Copy. Or a Bolt + Copy. The Up Tick again is going to be solid VS alot of decks... And the Ultimate isn't as KEY as the Down Tick is, but it can come in handy.
3.) Jace, Architect of Thought -- This was always a good option, I don't see some running it anymore... but even if you get 1 Down Tick Activation out of it before he dies, it's still a pretty significant dig for a Cruel or some other answers. And if your plan is to just Up Tick him all the way to Ultimate; it's a real threat.
4.) Devour Flesh MAIN -- Meta call... I deal with Boggles, and this is also handy after a Late Board Sweeper to prevent yourself from being blown out by a Raging Ravine or something. Sure, they're gaining some life; but all we are in the market to do is cast CRUEL. Once we cast that first Cruel; generally it takes over the game and you're setting yourself up to cast the next and the next.
5.) Mulldrifter -- Still got this old boy in my list!!! One of my favorite CRUEL Targets, just all around useful.
6.) Forbidden Alchemy -- Another one of my personal favorites for CRUEL Control. Digs deep, and puts things in the Graveyard, powerful tool.
7.) Hero's Downfall -- I've noticed alot of people running 1 to 2 copies of this specifically mostly to deal with Nahiri.
...beyond that; I think my list is pretty straight forward to most of the basic shell.
Mana first. (Seeing Mesa + Flats I'm assuming you're not on a budget)
1. 2 Mountains is unnecessary, the 2 uses for basics in modern is to avoid bloodmoon, and take less damage while fetching. Obviously mountains don't help against blood moon, and you have don't have any double red casting cards to make use of a second mountain. A second swamp would be much more helpful in most cases.
2. Most of your 1-2 drops are red and black, yet your mana base is very white heavy in the early game (4 sacred foundry + 2 godless shrine). The easiest way to offset this is to lower the count of shocks/tangos/basics you have, and add in some blackcleave cliffs to help play your early disruption without loosing too much life. A fun way to make up the focus on red and black in the beginning is to use a Fetid Heath or Rugged Prairie to help you later on when playing boros reckoner, and obzedat.
Aaaaand I have to go. But hope that little bit of critique helps!
They fetch up all the same stuff for Color Fixing really.
1.) As for 2 Mountains being Unnecessary; absolutely right. But going to 2 Swamp; I wanted to avoid that because I was planning for Boros Reckoners on Turn 3; I like 1 Swamp; but having 2 Swamps that means the odds that I will be off Turn 3 Reckoner screwed increases because of the 2 Swamps. So I'd rather keep it at 1 Mountain; 1 Swamp; 2 Plains and just up a Blood Crypt or something else.
2.) Yea the reason that I'm heavier Red/White is because of Boros Reckoners. The Black can easily be fetched by any of the 8 Fetches and almost all of the Duals run either the R/W + Black. So Black should be there. Other than Obzedat; there's nothing that requires BB/WW. So in my honest opinion; it's more of a Splash of Black to some degree. While also not wanting to be off the Turn 3 Reckoner.
28 lands definitely feels correct, and has felt for many weeks now. First off we're playing with 4 Magmatic Insights, 2 Tormenting Voices and 4 Jaces that either require excess mana or can migitate flood. Running fewer lands would mean cutting Blighted Fens, which are awesome. More mana also means more Tasigur / Fathom Feeder activations.
Fair point! I didn't consider the Magmatic Insights when evaluating the 28 lands decision.
That's why I ask; it's always good to get the perspective of the Deck Builder when you're looking at their Deck.
they're awesome. Sarkhan has a lower floor, but you really do need enough aggression to combat some green durdle decks.
Yea I'm curious on Sarkhan; on one hand I feel like he's going to be great going forward because for the most part the format has gotten a bit slower...
Also because our new Downfall is Sorcery Speed; it almost guarantees that you're going to get atleast 1 hit out of him before he may die.
My only issue is... going the way of Planeswalker/Superfriends Grixis makes Kolaghan's Command less useful...
But having a balance between creatures and Planeswalkers makes both options viable...
have you played Feeder in this deck? Feeder does a good job of filling the curve for this deck. Feeder does get sideboarded against Jeskai and Aristocrat decks, but I usually keep it in. I've been using the activated a fair bit, maybe more often than I suspected.
I have my Grixis list and have been play testing it; running 2 Fathom Feeders...
Honestly; I'm starting to see the value; but initially I don't think I really understood the role it played or what the Identity of the Deck was...
I'm having a better understanding; and I do like between 1 and 2 Feeders.
I'm curious of going all 4 Feeders though; another direction I might try to test is 4 Fathom Feeders with 4 Spell Shrivels along with Ulamog's Nullifier.
Going the way of INGEST so that Ulamog's Nullifier's value increases seems like an interesting way to go as well...
For now though that's neither here nor there... My Grixis list is very much along the lines of what you have here which is why I chose this thread to ask questions in to gain a better understanding.
You can see earlier iterations of this deck in the archived thread. I definitely feel like this version where I've cut down on expensive things is the best version. There's a ton of grind-power in this deck as it is, and in the late game Insights and Voices even become great targets for Jace's -3.
Honestly; this is probably the biggest issue I have with the deck... obviously it works for you and it's doing a nice job.
Your results speak for themselves...
What I was trying to understand is what parts of your list is working; because that could determine what is needed in the Grixis Shells; it's what is making it successful for you; but that then other things can be tweeked and done differently to make it better.
My Draw package consists of bigger spells like Dragonlord's Prerogative; Ugin's Insight; so that the cheaper looting/cantrip spells like Magmatic Insight or Anticipate get you the early lands and early answers that you need to get to the later game. I've got a mix... Flashing back a Prerogative feels really great; or even a Ugin's Insight. I gotta believe that in the long run it's better than the looting spells like Magmatic Insight or Tormented Voice. I could be wrong... I'll have to try it; as I admit I haven't.
Doing it the way I'm doing it though would mean you don't need the 28 lands; which frees up more space... just food for thought.
all archetypes feel quite even, as I've strived to make the deck well rounded.
I would say it's easy to beat decks that are clearly aggressive or clearly controlling. Decks that operate at instant speed and have efficient threats and answers but don't fold to my most powerful spells are the toughes ones to beat. Against aggro you can sideboard into cheap removal and play Nalaars and all it a day, against control you can bring in counterspells and slowly work your way into resource victory. Decks that require you to have a clock but also demand efficient answers or sweepers are tough to deal with. Decks like GW morph seem quite tough on paper, since they have more inevitability than I do with their Mastery of the Unseen and Evolutionary Leap. it would be important to have a strong clock against them, but Deathmist Raptors and Hangarbacks are great blockers. I am also incentivized to play sweepers, but this doesn't play well with my plan to out-aggro them! on top of that cards like the new Gideon punish slow draws very effectively. In a nutshell, when a deck has a stronger late game and doesn't fold to any specific kind of spells, it's challenging. When they can answer my Dragonlord Kolaghan, I'm in a real trouble. Basically a deck that requires me to have a strong plan A is tough to beat, since I never have a clear plan until I see my opening hand and sculpt my hand with Jace.
Tasigur is awesome for this deck. It doesn't matter what cards I get to draw with the ability, since any card can be looted away for a random card off the top. People think Magmatic Insight and Tormenting Voice are the spells they should give me, but free draws seem pretty awesome to me.
In general I rather use Fathom Feeder's activated ability if I can, since it's a more safe ability. However there are some pros to Tasigur - sometimes you have a very controlled graveyard and you can expect to net a more powerful card than by simply drawing 1. Tasigur can also put good targets into GY for jace's -3, even when opponents are not forced to give them to you from the ability. Also sometimes you want to have more cards in GY to help you flip Jace or to get more Delve Fodder.
Again; thanks for the perspective..
Thanks for answering all my questions and your time!
@Mr Rotten. I like how the new list is looking. Could Mage-Ring Network be a possible inclusion? Especially since You are running Damnable Pact. Just as another 'win con'.
The thing is the deck really doesn't want that many Colorless Mana Generators just like before.
Typically prior to BFZ; you want to run no more than 4 Colorless Generators; specifically 4 Radiant Fountains.
And even then I ran into problems; so I bumped it down to 3.
The other thing to consider is part of the reason you didn't want to run that many Colorless Generators because of Bile Blight; well Bile Blight is no longer there...
So maybe we can get away with a few more than 4....
With that said; I think Blighted Fen is much much more useful than Mage-Ring Network; so if I ran more Colorless Generators; I'd bump up the Blighted Fen number a bit more.
With From Beyond; it generates Colorless Mana with the Scions; so theoretically that can also be used to pump into massive Damnable Pacts.
So I think Mage-Ring Network can be something that isn't needed.
I'm starting to move towards building around Liliana and edict creatures...
This is def on my radar too.
*IF* The Format does slow down and become very heavy MIDRANGE again; then I absolutely will examine the Edict Creature plan again with Liliana Heretical Healer for sure!
For me; that's the secondary plan if the current plan fails...
Notes:
1.) Ob Nixilis Reignited + Erebos's Titan; I think this will prove to be a very solid combination; I could be wrong; but I think it's the safest place to START.
2.) Den Protector is going to stay amazing; giving the deck alot of reach and stay power! Add to that the new Mortuary Mire; and I think it's going to stay really great!
3.) Ruinous Path as the new Hero's Downfall; I think at worst it's a Sorcery Speed Downfall and it'll be just fine. The way this deck has played even before BFZ; it was very tap-out-ish already. So tapping our for a Destroy Creature OR Planeswalker isn't going to feel that different IMO. BONUS: Ruinous Path has AWAKEN; it will be something interesting to watch if AWAKEN is really worth a damn in STD. I personally think it COULD be. I see plenty of scenarios where things just stall; Me and Opponent are Top Decking; tapping out 7 Mana to destroy their Top Decked Walker/Creature for example; and then giving me a 4/4 Land to try and finish seems like it could turn out solid in a pinch.
4.) Discard Package consisting of Despise first and foremost; I think Despise is going to turn out to be great atleast initially in the new format. Black lost alot of flexibility with EARLY spot removal... Still was a bit hesitant to go all in on Despise as a 4; initially my instincts said yes, but I backed it off and went with a 3/2 Split. Duress made it in the mainboard as the 2 of; but I was planning to go with Transgress the Mind; but I think Transgress is going to miss more often then not than Duress might. Duress atleast helps to clear the way of any EXILE type of Removal to clear the way for Titan even. So I think Duress is the Mainboard option and Transgress the Mind the sideboard option for decks that want to go bigger.
5.) Not sure about the Mind Rot slot; but I think if the format does slow down a bit; it could be hella good again! Between the Despise/Duress early; then a Turn 3 Mind Rot; that could really clear the way for a Turn 4 Titan to go into 4 turn Clock Beatdown mode. "COULD" That's not the primary plan; but it "COULD" happen. As things settle and the format becomes clear; Mind Rot could end up being the first of the cuts to make the deck more meta called.
6.) Sweeper package; so I don't know if only 3 Sweepers is right... I feel like it should be. I attack their hand early; and a sweeper should clear things up to start laying the path to victory. Den Protector can bring back any of the sweepers that are cast; and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon himself can act as a sweeper as well if need be. There's plenty of Spot Removal; with Ob Nixilis Reignited also being basically a Spot Removal option as well; perhaps I could lower the Spot Removal numbers a lil bit and add another Languish or Crux of Fate. I just wanted to keep the Curve under 3; so I cut those down a bit.
7.) Draw Package; losing Sign in Blood I feel is huge!!!!! Having that Turn 2 Draw 2 honestly I think is the BIG loss to the previous versions of the deck. With that said; I think it can still manage; and Read the Bones is definitely good. The lack of good draw spell options in Black is another reason I wanted to keep the curve under 3.
8.) Ob Nixilis Reignited + Damnable Pact; first as I said in NOTE 7; the Draw Options for black are lacking now having lost Sign in Blood. BUT: I think Damnable Pact is going to be a fine option for this list... and the interesting thing I want to try is if I get Ob Nix in ULTIMATE range; then casting a Lethal Damnable Pact with the Ob Nix Emblem targeting my Opponent? I feel like the Ob Nix Emblem and Damnable Pact are a perfect marriage and warrants a LOOK.
9.) EXILE Package; Scour from Existence and Infinite Obliteration. I feel like because we're Black Based; with very little ways to destroy Artifacts and Enchantments now with Reclamation Sage and Back to Nature rotating out; we need to have some ways to deal with those things. So Scour I feel is going to be solid. We also need a way to deal with the Hangarbacks or other problem Creature Permanents; Scour gives me an option if they resolve the spell; while Infinite Obliteration allows me to take a Proactive Approach VS the tough Creature threats. I was going to go Grip of Desolation; it is 1 cheaper than Scour; but Grip only EXILES a Creature AND Land. I wanted something that could hit Arts, Ench; so Scour was the obvious choice here. I have alot of other ways to kill Creatures; so I felt paying 1 more for Scour will prove to be more important.
10.) Prism Ring? So I started using this towards the end before the Rotation; and I found it to be pretty dang exciting when casting a Thoughtseize or a Sign in Blood/Read the Bones and only taking 1 damage. So with no Sign in Blood; no Thoughtseize; is Prism Ring still needed? Well; I don't know about that; and this is also going to be a quick cut if things slow down and feel it's not needed. However; I really loved Prism Ring; with so many cheap spells; and the fact that there is much much less Self Inflicted Pain in the deck; Prism Ring could get out of hand quickly. This past Friday having Prism Ring out; it gained me easily 8 to 12 life so easily... The other thing I like about Prism Ring; is the Ob Nixilis Reignited UP TICK does 1 point of Damage to us; so Prism Ring will off set that.
11.) Last but certainly not least... From Beyond!!! I'm not a big GREEN fan; so I rarely even look at Green Spoils when a new set comes out... but I did happen upon From Beyond and I think this card could... COULD be amazing. And I think this card could help propell this deck into a completely different direction once the format fleshes out and we get a clear picture how things shape out. From Beyond generates 1/1 Scions. Think about just that for a second; it generates 1/1's... so they are Chump Blockers; they can also make it so that we can go WIDE and attack offensively. Then the next thing is those Scion's can be SACed to create Colorless Mana. Now; granted; my initial Starting Point doesn't have alot of things that are SUPER expensive; much less not taking advantage of ELDRAZI. But again; THIS card is a card I'm going to keep a close eye on as I play my initial list. Because this card could ENABLE me to go with some Eldrazi Win Cons; or even allow me to run more Colorless Spells going forward. But with that all said; again at the base level of this card; it's generating 1/1 and Mana. Casting Ugin; Scour from Existence; SACing all of the TOKENS to create say 3 or 4 Colorless Mana; tapping 2 Black to Cast Crux; then tapping 4 more Black to cast a Titan for example as potential plays that From Beyond could give... I love what From Beyond "COULD" do for the INITIAL LIST; but also what it could open up going forward.
With that; The sideboard is a work in progress; I am happy with what it looks like... I don't feel I really need to talk about much else.
As far as using the ELDRAZI for Win Cons; I think it "COULD" be an option like BattleSpawn suggested.
But I don't think there's any doubt that Ob Nix + Titan is going to be very good and a nice safe starting point.
I also think no matter what the format does; whether it speeds up or slows down; I think Despise could be a nice Mainboard option... VS Control it forces them to discard their Creature Win Cons or Planeswalker. VS Aggro/Midrange; it allows you to 1 for 1 early; so that Languish/Crux and Ob Nix can clean the rest of mid/late. Where Despise will be rough is when you're dealing with Sphinx's Tutelage types of Win Cons; Despise doesn't hit Non Creature/Non Planeswalker strategies. I think those will be few and far between though; and plan to have Duress in the side with a few more copies of Transgress the Mind.
Honestly; with all the removal the Copycat Matchup is pretty cake.
The ones that can be a problem are the ones that shift off the Combo and become Planeswalker Control decks, but even those tend to not be too bad but they can ultimately out grind.
Typically you see this in the 4 Color Variations of Copycat, they shift to a completely different style of deck, and if you guess wrong and sideboard wrong, you can lose just off that mistake.
Mardu is also not that bad at all with the updated list my buddy took.
The main deck that has been giving me the most trouble with my lists is Jund Energy, or the other Energy types of decks like GR Pummeler and such.
But with the newest list that my buddy Ran, I think it'll be better VS that even.
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4x Tireless Tracker
2x Walking Ballista
Spells (24)
1x Collective Brutality
2x Transgress the Mind
1x Fumigate
1x Yahenni's Expertise
1x Anguished Unmaking
3x Ruinous Path
1x Murder
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Declaration in Stone
4x Grasp of Darkness
4x Fatal Push
1x Appetitie for the Unnatural
2x Diabolic Tutor
1x Seasons Past
1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
1x Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Land (26)
2x Blooming Marsh
2x Concealed Courtyard
4x Evolving Wilds
2x Forest
4x Hissing Quagmire
2x Plains
4x Shambling Vent
6x Swamp
I forget what the Sideboard was, he made some adjustments to what I had, but for the most part it was pretty close.
At only 2 copies, it's been fine. It comes down when I need it, it's still good VS the Delirium Decks. Necessary Life Gain. Works really great with Ballista and Fatal Push.
Undefeated during the Swiss Rounds on Game Day.
2nd Place a few weeks in a row at FNM.
I've since splashed in WHITE for a few spells though and finished 2nd again today, only dropping the Final Round to Jund Energy. Close Match though...
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4x Tireless Tracker
4x Walking Ballista
Spells (22)
3x Transgress the Mind
2x Yahenni's Expertise
2x Ruinous Path
2x Murder
4x Grasp of Darkness
4x Fatal Push
2x Succumb to Temptation
2x Diabolic Tutor
1x Seasons Past
1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Land (26)
1x Blighted Fen
4x Blooming Marsh
4x Evolving Wilds
4x Forest
4x Hissing Quagmire
9x Swamp
4x Appetite for the Unnatural
3x Collective Brutality
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Lost Legacy
2x Ruinous Path
1x Transgress the Mind
1x Yahenni's Expertise
This week I added a WHITE splash though like I mentioned, here's that list... very little WHITE.
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4x Tireless Tracker
4x Walking Ballista
Spells (22)
3x Transgress the Mind
1x Fumigate
2x Yahenni's Expertise
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Ruinous Path
4x Grasp of Darkness
4x Fatal Push
2x Succumb to Temptation
2x Diabolic Tutor
1x Seasons Past
1x Nissa, Vital Force
1x Ob Nixilis Reignited
Land (26)
4x Blooming Marsh
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Evolving Wilds
1x Forest
2x Hissing Quagmire
1x Plains
4x Shambling Vent
6x Swamp
1x Greenwarden of Murasa
2x Lost Legacy
1x Transgress the Mind
3x Collective Brutality
1x Fumigate
1x Yahenni's Expertise
2x Ruinous Path
1x Appetite for the Unnatural
1x Decommission
2x Fragmentize
To the Slaughter might actually be pretty sweet - I play it alot in STD, not sure why I didn't consider it for Modern... LOL
Might even be solid as a Devour Flesh Replacement actually.
I'll have to give that a try.
...the old one was Locked and Archived
Anyhoo; haven't been on the forums in a long time...
Haven't played Modern in about 10 months...
The "CRUEL" itch has grown unbearable, so it's time to get back into it again.
Here's my starting list...
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Mulldrifter
Spells: 29
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Damnation
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Hero's Downfall
3 Terminate
2 Devour Flesh
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Mana Leak
2 Remand
4 Serum Visions
1 Forbidden Alchemy
1 Chandra, The Firebrand
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
Lands: 24
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Sulfur Falls
3 Drowned Catacombs
3 Swamp
2 Island
1 Chandra, Pyromaster
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Counterflux
2 Flashfreeze
2 Crumble to Dust
1 Shatterstorm
2 Shattering Blow
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Go for the Throat
Due to a MOVE - some of my Modern cards are still in storage; so I won't be able to get access to them for a few months.
However; I'm happy with this list, don't think I'd change it up too much...
1.) Draw Go -- It's very very CONTROL oriented. My goal with my list is to take down my Shop's Event every week. I don't expect to be attending any PTQs or PPTQs or anything larger. So some of the decisions in my main are based on my Local Meta. With that said; I think you can get away with a Draw Go uber Old Fashioned Control list if you're in a smaller - "KNOWN" Meta. If you're in more of a unknown meta; I would consider a Hybrid of Cruel Control with the Gurmag/Tasigur/Tombstalker strategy along with it. Just my opinion...
2.) Chandra -- So initially I had the Pyromaster in my MAIN; she proves to be Solid on the UP TICK VS alot of decks that have Creatures with 1 toughness. Sure, alot of times she doesn't last long, but she can't last long... If she does; then you ultimate her and potentially cast CRUEL for Free THREE times. Pyromaster gives you a way out if you get Blood Mooned as well. With that said; I opted to switch it around and put Pyromaster in the Side and Firebrand in the main. Simply to cast my spells and get copies... Maybe Cruels; but say getting a Terminate + Copy. Or a Bolt + Copy. The Up Tick again is going to be solid VS alot of decks... And the Ultimate isn't as KEY as the Down Tick is, but it can come in handy.
3.) Jace, Architect of Thought -- This was always a good option, I don't see some running it anymore... but even if you get 1 Down Tick Activation out of it before he dies, it's still a pretty significant dig for a Cruel or some other answers. And if your plan is to just Up Tick him all the way to Ultimate; it's a real threat.
4.) Devour Flesh MAIN -- Meta call... I deal with Boggles, and this is also handy after a Late Board Sweeper to prevent yourself from being blown out by a Raging Ravine or something. Sure, they're gaining some life; but all we are in the market to do is cast CRUEL. Once we cast that first Cruel; generally it takes over the game and you're setting yourself up to cast the next and the next.
5.) Mulldrifter -- Still got this old boy in my list!!! One of my favorite CRUEL Targets, just all around useful.
6.) Forbidden Alchemy -- Another one of my personal favorites for CRUEL Control. Digs deep, and puts things in the Graveyard, powerful tool.
7.) Hero's Downfall -- I've noticed alot of people running 1 to 2 copies of this specifically mostly to deal with Nahiri.
...beyond that; I think my list is pretty straight forward to most of the basic shell.
/Rotten
Budge = No not really; but honestly those Arid Mesa or Marsh Flats can be Bloodstained Mires too.
I have most of that already anyways..
They fetch up all the same stuff for Color Fixing really.
1.) As for 2 Mountains being Unnecessary; absolutely right. But going to 2 Swamp; I wanted to avoid that because I was planning for Boros Reckoners on Turn 3; I like 1 Swamp; but having 2 Swamps that means the odds that I will be off Turn 3 Reckoner screwed increases because of the 2 Swamps. So I'd rather keep it at 1 Mountain; 1 Swamp; 2 Plains and just up a Blood Crypt or something else.
2.) Yea the reason that I'm heavier Red/White is because of Boros Reckoners. The Black can easily be fetched by any of the 8 Fetches and almost all of the Duals run either the R/W + Black. So Black should be there. Other than Obzedat; there's nothing that requires BB/WW. So in my honest opinion; it's more of a Splash of Black to some degree. While also not wanting to be off the Turn 3 Reckoner.
Mana Base:
4 Marsh Flats
2 Blood Crypt
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
2 Smoldering Marsh
2 Shambling Vent
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Plains
Figured I'd post it here so the Modern Mardu experts can chime in.
4 Dark Confidant
1 Blood Baron of Vizkopa
1 Obzedat, Ghost Council
4 Boros Reckoner
1 Olivia Voldaren
1 Soulfire Grand Master
2 Abbot of Keral Keep
Spells: 23
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Crackling Doom
2 Terminate
2 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
4 Arid Mesa
4 Marsh Flats
1 Blood Crypt
4 Sacred Foundry
1 Godless Shrine
2 Smoldering Marsh
2 Shambling Vent
2 Mountain
1 Swamp
2 Plains
This is what I've been working on as far as Grixis Control lists are concerned.
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Dragonmaster Outcast
3 Fathom Feeder
Spells: 26
2 Transgress the Mind
2 Crux of Fate
2 Ruinous Path
1 Murderous Cut
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Silumgar's Command
2 Scatter to the Winds
4 Spell Shrivel
4 Wild Slash
1 Fiery Impulse
1 Ultimate Price
1 Painful Truths
2 Anticipate
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Evolving Wilds
3 Smoldering Marsh
2 Sunken Hollow
2 Shivan Reef
1 Mortuary Mire
2 Swamp
3 Mountain
3 Island
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Transgress the Mind
3 Duress
1 Mind Rot
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Complete Disregard
1 Ultimate Price
3 Douce in Gloom
3 Radiant Flames
Quite a bit different than the OP; it's borderline similar to Jeskai Black without the White.
Dragonmaster Outcast seems to me like a real good way to go honestly...
Just a matter of what all to put around it...
Fair point! I didn't consider the Magmatic Insights when evaluating the 28 lands decision.
That's why I ask; it's always good to get the perspective of the Deck Builder when you're looking at their Deck.
Yea I'm curious on Sarkhan; on one hand I feel like he's going to be great going forward because for the most part the format has gotten a bit slower...
Also because our new Downfall is Sorcery Speed; it almost guarantees that you're going to get atleast 1 hit out of him before he may die.
My only issue is... going the way of Planeswalker/Superfriends Grixis makes Kolaghan's Command less useful...
But having a balance between creatures and Planeswalkers makes both options viable...
I have my Grixis list and have been play testing it; running 2 Fathom Feeders...
Honestly; I'm starting to see the value; but initially I don't think I really understood the role it played or what the Identity of the Deck was...
I'm having a better understanding; and I do like between 1 and 2 Feeders.
I'm curious of going all 4 Feeders though; another direction I might try to test is 4 Fathom Feeders with 4 Spell Shrivels along with Ulamog's Nullifier.
Going the way of INGEST so that Ulamog's Nullifier's value increases seems like an interesting way to go as well...
For now though that's neither here nor there... My Grixis list is very much along the lines of what you have here which is why I chose this thread to ask questions in to gain a better understanding.
Honestly; this is probably the biggest issue I have with the deck... obviously it works for you and it's doing a nice job.
Your results speak for themselves...
What I was trying to understand is what parts of your list is working; because that could determine what is needed in the Grixis Shells; it's what is making it successful for you; but that then other things can be tweeked and done differently to make it better.
My Draw package consists of bigger spells like Dragonlord's Prerogative; Ugin's Insight; so that the cheaper looting/cantrip spells like Magmatic Insight or Anticipate get you the early lands and early answers that you need to get to the later game. I've got a mix... Flashing back a Prerogative feels really great; or even a Ugin's Insight. I gotta believe that in the long run it's better than the looting spells like Magmatic Insight or Tormented Voice. I could be wrong... I'll have to try it; as I admit I haven't.
Doing it the way I'm doing it though would mean you don't need the 28 lands; which frees up more space... just food for thought.
Great insight and perspective! Thanks!
Again; thanks for the perspective..
Thanks for answering all my questions and your time!
You've provided some great insight!
Got some questions:
1.) Is 28 Lands really required? The Curve is pretty low... Seems very excessive considering 6 mana is your biggest spell?
2.) How do you feel about Sarkhan and Ob Nix in the mainboard of this deck?
3.) How are you using Fathom Feeder? I've been tinkering around with Feeder and I'm finding it a bit underwhelming...
4.) How do you feel about your Looting Draw Package? Do you think you could do better with real draw power?
5.) How are you doing against:
a.) Aggro?
b.) Midrange?
c.) Control?
6.) Thoughts on Tasigur? You have alot of pretty useless cards that you'll be getting back with his ability... is it ever awkward?
THANKS!
The thing is the deck really doesn't want that many Colorless Mana Generators just like before.
Typically prior to BFZ; you want to run no more than 4 Colorless Generators; specifically 4 Radiant Fountains.
And even then I ran into problems; so I bumped it down to 3.
The other thing to consider is part of the reason you didn't want to run that many Colorless Generators because of Bile Blight; well Bile Blight is no longer there...
So maybe we can get away with a few more than 4....
With that said; I think Blighted Fen is much much more useful than Mage-Ring Network; so if I ran more Colorless Generators; I'd bump up the Blighted Fen number a bit more.
With From Beyond; it generates Colorless Mana with the Scions; so theoretically that can also be used to pump into massive Damnable Pacts.
So I think Mage-Ring Network can be something that isn't needed.
This is def on my radar too.
*IF* The Format does slow down and become very heavy MIDRANGE again; then I absolutely will examine the Edict Creature plan again with Liliana Heretical Healer for sure!
For me; that's the secondary plan if the current plan fails...
I agree completely!
I'm also very excited by this because Discard has and will always be one of my primary strategies in any deck that I build.
Agree completely!!! I have one in the side; but did plan for 2.
4 Erebos's Titan
3 Den Protector
Spells: 21
3 Despise
2 Duress
2 Mind Rot
1 Crux of Fate
2 Languish
1 Scour from Existence
4 Ruinous Path
1 Ultimate Price
1 Infinite Obliteration
2 Read the Bones
1 Damnable Pact
1 Dark Petition
1 From Beyond
2 Prism Ring
Planeswalkers: 3
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Ob Nixilis Reignited
Lands: 26
2 Blighted Fen
4 Jungle Hollow
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Mortuary Mire
1 Evolving Wilds
12 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Duress
3 Transgress the Mind
1 Palace Siege
1 Scour from Existence
1 Crux of Fate
2 Languish
4 Feed the Clan
1 Virulent Plague
Notes:
1.) Ob Nixilis Reignited + Erebos's Titan; I think this will prove to be a very solid combination; I could be wrong; but I think it's the safest place to START.
2.) Den Protector is going to stay amazing; giving the deck alot of reach and stay power! Add to that the new Mortuary Mire; and I think it's going to stay really great!
3.) Ruinous Path as the new Hero's Downfall; I think at worst it's a Sorcery Speed Downfall and it'll be just fine. The way this deck has played even before BFZ; it was very tap-out-ish already. So tapping our for a Destroy Creature OR Planeswalker isn't going to feel that different IMO. BONUS: Ruinous Path has AWAKEN; it will be something interesting to watch if AWAKEN is really worth a damn in STD. I personally think it COULD be. I see plenty of scenarios where things just stall; Me and Opponent are Top Decking; tapping out 7 Mana to destroy their Top Decked Walker/Creature for example; and then giving me a 4/4 Land to try and finish seems like it could turn out solid in a pinch.
4.) Discard Package consisting of Despise first and foremost; I think Despise is going to turn out to be great atleast initially in the new format. Black lost alot of flexibility with EARLY spot removal... Still was a bit hesitant to go all in on Despise as a 4; initially my instincts said yes, but I backed it off and went with a 3/2 Split. Duress made it in the mainboard as the 2 of; but I was planning to go with Transgress the Mind; but I think Transgress is going to miss more often then not than Duress might. Duress atleast helps to clear the way of any EXILE type of Removal to clear the way for Titan even. So I think Duress is the Mainboard option and Transgress the Mind the sideboard option for decks that want to go bigger.
5.) Not sure about the Mind Rot slot; but I think if the format does slow down a bit; it could be hella good again! Between the Despise/Duress early; then a Turn 3 Mind Rot; that could really clear the way for a Turn 4 Titan to go into 4 turn Clock Beatdown mode. "COULD" That's not the primary plan; but it "COULD" happen. As things settle and the format becomes clear; Mind Rot could end up being the first of the cuts to make the deck more meta called.
6.) Sweeper package; so I don't know if only 3 Sweepers is right... I feel like it should be. I attack their hand early; and a sweeper should clear things up to start laying the path to victory. Den Protector can bring back any of the sweepers that are cast; and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon himself can act as a sweeper as well if need be. There's plenty of Spot Removal; with Ob Nixilis Reignited also being basically a Spot Removal option as well; perhaps I could lower the Spot Removal numbers a lil bit and add another Languish or Crux of Fate. I just wanted to keep the Curve under 3; so I cut those down a bit.
7.) Draw Package; losing Sign in Blood I feel is huge!!!!! Having that Turn 2 Draw 2 honestly I think is the BIG loss to the previous versions of the deck. With that said; I think it can still manage; and Read the Bones is definitely good. The lack of good draw spell options in Black is another reason I wanted to keep the curve under 3.
8.) Ob Nixilis Reignited + Damnable Pact; first as I said in NOTE 7; the Draw Options for black are lacking now having lost Sign in Blood. BUT: I think Damnable Pact is going to be a fine option for this list... and the interesting thing I want to try is if I get Ob Nix in ULTIMATE range; then casting a Lethal Damnable Pact with the Ob Nix Emblem targeting my Opponent? I feel like the Ob Nix Emblem and Damnable Pact are a perfect marriage and warrants a LOOK.
9.) EXILE Package; Scour from Existence and Infinite Obliteration. I feel like because we're Black Based; with very little ways to destroy Artifacts and Enchantments now with Reclamation Sage and Back to Nature rotating out; we need to have some ways to deal with those things. So Scour I feel is going to be solid. We also need a way to deal with the Hangarbacks or other problem Creature Permanents; Scour gives me an option if they resolve the spell; while Infinite Obliteration allows me to take a Proactive Approach VS the tough Creature threats. I was going to go Grip of Desolation; it is 1 cheaper than Scour; but Grip only EXILES a Creature AND Land. I wanted something that could hit Arts, Ench; so Scour was the obvious choice here. I have alot of other ways to kill Creatures; so I felt paying 1 more for Scour will prove to be more important.
10.) Prism Ring? So I started using this towards the end before the Rotation; and I found it to be pretty dang exciting when casting a Thoughtseize or a Sign in Blood/Read the Bones and only taking 1 damage. So with no Sign in Blood; no Thoughtseize; is Prism Ring still needed? Well; I don't know about that; and this is also going to be a quick cut if things slow down and feel it's not needed. However; I really loved Prism Ring; with so many cheap spells; and the fact that there is much much less Self Inflicted Pain in the deck; Prism Ring could get out of hand quickly. This past Friday having Prism Ring out; it gained me easily 8 to 12 life so easily... The other thing I like about Prism Ring; is the Ob Nixilis Reignited UP TICK does 1 point of Damage to us; so Prism Ring will off set that.
11.) Last but certainly not least... From Beyond!!! I'm not a big GREEN fan; so I rarely even look at Green Spoils when a new set comes out... but I did happen upon From Beyond and I think this card could... COULD be amazing. And I think this card could help propell this deck into a completely different direction once the format fleshes out and we get a clear picture how things shape out. From Beyond generates 1/1 Scions. Think about just that for a second; it generates 1/1's... so they are Chump Blockers; they can also make it so that we can go WIDE and attack offensively. Then the next thing is those Scion's can be SACed to create Colorless Mana. Now; granted; my initial Starting Point doesn't have alot of things that are SUPER expensive; much less not taking advantage of ELDRAZI. But again; THIS card is a card I'm going to keep a close eye on as I play my initial list. Because this card could ENABLE me to go with some Eldrazi Win Cons; or even allow me to run more Colorless Spells going forward. But with that all said; again at the base level of this card; it's generating 1/1 and Mana. Casting Ugin; Scour from Existence; SACing all of the TOKENS to create say 3 or 4 Colorless Mana; tapping 2 Black to Cast Crux; then tapping 4 more Black to cast a Titan for example as potential plays that From Beyond could give... I love what From Beyond "COULD" do for the INITIAL LIST; but also what it could open up going forward.
With that; The sideboard is a work in progress; I am happy with what it looks like... I don't feel I really need to talk about much else.
/CHEERS
But I don't think there's any doubt that Ob Nix + Titan is going to be very good and a nice safe starting point.
I also think no matter what the format does; whether it speeds up or slows down; I think Despise could be a nice Mainboard option... VS Control it forces them to discard their Creature Win Cons or Planeswalker. VS Aggro/Midrange; it allows you to 1 for 1 early; so that Languish/Crux and Ob Nix can clean the rest of mid/late. Where Despise will be rough is when you're dealing with Sphinx's Tutelage types of Win Cons; Despise doesn't hit Non Creature/Non Planeswalker strategies. I think those will be few and far between though; and plan to have Duress in the side with a few more copies of Transgress the Mind.