So all my cards finally came in the mail, all I'm currently missing is 2 Protectors and 2 Walkers (borrowing). I have also modified my list using mainly theory and it's come out VERY similar to Mr. Rottens lastest posted list... I'm actually a bit annoyed about this as I had hoped to move away from what he is running a bit. As it stands, the main has 1-2 cards different and the side is ~4/5 :/.
I think I have a very definite idea as to how this deck should run and from all my playing on Mr. Rottens' lists I feel it is very similar to the way he feels it should be played too.
One change I am debating currently is -1 Hangarback from main (making 3) to add in either the 4th Bile Blight (currently side) or 3rd draw spell - Read the Bones.
We think alike man...
When I posted my list the other day; I had issues with not having the 4th Bile Blight; and I wanted a 3rd Read the Bones myself.
I wasn't going to share this list till this weekend after I ran it a bit more play testing and also on Friday; but your comments here encouraged me to share now.
#3: BUT: At the expense of lowering the Devotion Package. Lowering Titans; Lowering Gary.
#4: Only 2 Titans!?!? My thought process is this... How often have we cast a Turn 4 Titan; only to feel like we want to Turn 5 Crux and it feels a little awkward? This has happened to me... obviously if casting Crux is the best play; you still do it killing your Titan knowing you can get it back. But here's what I am doing with the current list. Turn 2 Hangarback; Turn 3 having Blights open and being able to pump Hangarback. Turn 4 Downfall Mana up and being able to Pump Hangarback. Or Turn 4 Languish killing Hangarback making a few tokens. OR just continuing to ride Hangarback into Turn 5 and CRUX there. Wiping the board; making about 3 to 4 Tokens then on Turn 6 dropping the Titan. If you Crux BEFORE dropping the Titan; you have a greater chance that Titan comes down; and is INDESTRUCTIBLE because they control no creatures. OR: Worst case you Crux on 5 and cast Titan on 6 and they have put out a new creature threat... Maybe it's Bile Blightable to still trigger the Indestructible? If not; that's ok; they only have 1 dude maybe... It feels like a cleaner path to me...
#5: Only 1 Gray Merchant!?!? Yep; the thought process is if I bolster the early game the Speed Aggro decks will struggle to get me down and thus I am not in a position that I absolutely need a Turn 4 Titan and a Turn 5 Gary; because what??? If that plan doesn't happen; if say for example I don't have a Turn 4 Titan; into a Turn 5 Gary; then I'm basically dead anyways. Or if I have the Gary but no Titan? Then Turn 5 Gary only gains me 2? So I took away all that and just upped the Removal; plan on featuring Hangarbacks big time; they are my go to creature... Pump Pump Pump; then use Edict Creatures or Sidisi to DESTROY and then use Den Protectors and the Palace Siege to bring Hangarbacks back and make them BIG late game and turn them into massive beaters with a bunch of their little friends for chump blocking duty or to go on the offensive too. That's the new plan... I still wanted 1 Gary though; on the off chance I draw it; or on the off chance I just TUTOR for it from Sidisi... Gaining 2; 4; 5+ Life; taking me out of Stoke Range for example?
#6: Only 1 Palace Siege mainboard again? Yep!! And just the other day I was singing Palace Sieges praises and had it back to 2 and saying I was featuring it again. But BattleSpawn brought up a great point. VS the Speedier Aggro decks; we only need 1 and there is 1 Purpose for the the card. DRAGONS Drain 2. With all the early removal and the Hangarbacks mucking up the board; I fully expect that I will be able to drop the Palace Siege and untap so it can start triggering. VS Midrange/Control; Palace Siege plays a bigger role; thus I moved the 2nd Copy into the Side instead of Main.
#7: The other thing I missed with my last posted build was only having 2 Edict Creatures... I wanted atleast 3 main. Mission accomplished! With 2 more coming in from the side VS Slower Midrange Decks and Dragon Decks. It's been fantastic.
...and that's about it; this is my CURRENT list; not keeping anything secret from you guys.
The reason I was going to wait to post this is just because I wanted to play it either Tonight and/or On Friday and see how things felt...
One thing I try to be conscience of is when building a Brew that is unique; that is trying to do some different things than any other deck out there; expect it to change constantly...
Expect it to go through alot of ups and downs and adjustments... alot of things get shifted around; play tested; and repeated.
When one idea doesn't seem super great; then you tweek something big; you sometimes gotta go back and revisit that not great idea as the rest of the deck landscape changed and that old idea could be fine again.
IE: Hangarbacks; I had them in; then I cut them; and we're back...
So I appreciate the people who have been consistently following the thread; been play testing; been running our lists and trying and riding the wave along with us...
Yesterday, i went 3:1 at a local fnm with Cruel Control, lost 0:2 against naya burn, won against merfolk (2:0), bogles (2:0) and grixis control (2:0). As for the list, i want to add another snapcaster, maybe go up to four serum visions. think twice and keranos did great for me, i might want to cut one clique and maybe go for the throat. For the sideboard, the only thing i'd want to replace is grave titan, maybe for ashiok or something along those lines.
One of the newest additions to my deck is Living Lore.
I admit; I haven't played with the card yet; but in theory I love what it might be able to do so I am going to test it.
#1: I see it as a 5th Snapcaster Mage. Let me explain: So on Turn 7 we cast Cruel; when it resolves we are looking for 2 things. #1 Another Cruel; #2 A Snapcaster so we can Flashback Cruel on Turn 9. What if we added a 3rd thing to that list... Living Lore? So if we hit a Living Lore on Turn 7 after a Resolved Cruel; that means on Turn 8; we can cast Living Lore with Cryptic Mana available; having counter backup we drop Living Lore out there as a 7/7. On Turn 9; we Attack; if Living Lore does ANY Damage either to a Creature or to a Player; we can SAC Living Lore; cast Cruel for Free; and with the "Return Target Creature from your GY to Hand" piece of Cruel; we just return Living Lore and do it again.
#2: Grixis Guru also mentioned that this could give us a way to cast Cruel Ultimatum when our opponent has a Blood Moon out that maybe we haven't been able to bounce or destroy yet with various tools.
#3: The interesting thing is; I also run a Forbidden Alchemy. I could even consider taking the Mulldrifter and making it another Alchemy. Sometimes I get to Alchemy on Turn 3; if I see a Cruel; dumping it in the Yard doesn't feel so terrible now. Because I can Living Lore on Turn 4 or even on Turn 5 with Spell Snare backup. And potentially end up with a Turn 6 Cruel.
#4: It might be worth giving the HYBRID builds a try again that I first started to try with the Thoughtscour. One of the reasons I wasn't a fan of the Hybrid ultimately was because Thoughtscour hitting and dumping a Cruel Ultimatum to the yard just made it harder to cast it... Now with Living Lore; it gives us the chance to bring it back out of the Yard easily instead of relying on a Turn 9 Snapcaster to Cruel to get it back.
#6: The CFB guys were trying to make Living Lore a combo piece; but what I'm proposing is that it's simply a pseudo 5th Snapcaster Mage; put it in a Control deck; we always end up having a lot of spells in the Yard; we always end up Casting Cruel if the Match goes the ways we want them to go and the way the decks are designed to go. Sure; Living Lore without Cruel looks awkward; Living Lore in our hand between Turns 1-6 is pretty blah for the most part; but I think it can give us another edge that most people won't expect.
Other than that; my list has been doing fairly well; I've been placing 2nd each week at my weekly LGS event; the 1 round I lose is mostly due to Play Mistakes.
I didn't do so hot at a PPTQ; but out of the 4 Matchups I played; I never felt Out Classed; still ironing out the Play Mistake Kinks of learning the format and learning all the decks that I have to battle.
So I'm very happy with my current list; and I'm very happy with the Sideboard; it's just a matter of continuing to plug away and grind out experience.
The issue with killing them is we run out of removal, but the Raptors keep coming back. Especially in the GW aggro list that's running around, there's a minimum of 6 morph creatures + Raptors. It might just be me though. I've had lots of games in the past where due to the slow nature of this deck and the fact we aren't running counters, the fact they keep coming back just completely wins the game. That said, I haven't really played vs them with Titans as everyone locally jumped from them onto Ensoul, but they are moving back.
Hmm I guess. I just don't have high views on cards that are only gain x life, I just feel like there's more that you could be doing. I'm probably just biased though.
It's possible I'm underestimating that specific deck; but I feel like bring in the extra Edict Creatures; and get the Recycle system setup... Palace Siege + Edict Creatures or Liliana + Edict Creatures or Den Protector + Edict Creatures.
And at the end of the day; I feel like with Hangarbacks plus the 1/1 Thopter Tokens; I'll have plenty of blocking capabilities to setup Languish/Crux/Ugin wipes.
my biggest question with the new build, is how are you dealing with Raptors now?
Also, why Feed over Pharika's Cure? Sure you're trading 3 life, but you're also killing their creature more often than not.
I'm not sure what you mean by dealing with Raptors? There's plenty of removal... just kill them. IDK; I haven't had issues against Raptors; so I guess I didn't know they were a problem.
As for Pharika's Cure VS Feed the Clan; I feel the deck doesn't have issues at killing creature; Bile Blight does the job along with all the other removal.
So I'd rather get the extra 3 Life out of Feed the Clan; and if there's a Titan on board; it's an extra 8 life.
#1: You'll notice I cut the Gray Merchant of Asphodel... WHY? Well because without the Titan on Turn 4; what is it? Virtually nothing... 2/4 isn't going to get it done. 2 points of Drain isn't going to get it done.
#2: So what is the plan for Lifegain? Well; in the mainboard the Gain Lands; the Cheap Removal; the Hangarbacks all put in alot of work. Then out of the side; BattleSpawn has been testing Feed the Clan; and I think he brings up some very valid points. The worst case it gains us 5 life for only 2 Mana; at INSTANT SPEED. Best case it's when we have a Titan out and it gains us 10 Life; AT INSTANT SPEED!
So I believe that Feed the Clan might actually prove to be more valuable; quicker; and much much more flexible.
Palace Siege is back in full effect in this list; sure; the issue is still true... On Turn 5 you tap out and it does nothing; you don't start to see the fruits of it's labor till Turn 6.
So the idea is that you do whatever you need to do to make sure on Turn 5 you'll survive casting it; and untapping with it to start stabilizing.
With that said; I don't think it's completely impossible... 4 Bile Blights; 4 Hangarback Walkers; 3 Thoughtseize; 4 Hero's Downfall; all put in alot of work VS the Aggro decks.
The Gain Lands keep your head above water...
And once you untap with Palace Siege; VS the Aggro Decks you start to DRAIN and stabilize... VS the Control Decks, Midrange even; chances are you're on the KHANS plan.
Bringing back Hangarbacks that have died to Edict creatures or Exploit; or to your own sweepers or from your opponents... Having a board of Thopters; bringing back the Hangarback; recasting it; and pumping it up up up; then killing it again. You never generally run out of Tokens.
Bringing back the Den Protectors? Do I really need to get into why this is amazing!?
Getting back any of the Edict Creatures VS the Midrange Decks??? Just amazing VS them...
Palace Siege is back in full effect in this list; and I'm happy where we're going...
So there you have it...
OH: and a BIG THANKS to Mr. BattleSpawn; there's a perfect example of a difference of opinion from my build; but he's put in the work; the testing; has come up with a different style of list but in keeping with the idea of what we're trying to accomplish.
All the while bouncing ideas off each other; he comes up with Feed the Clan; makes a great pitch for it; and low and behold... I actually love it; it's much faster and much more reliable than the Gray Merchant Plan.. It's cheap; it's simple; it's clean; and better yet... It doesn't Rotate. #BINGO!
I do like the look of this new build Rotten. With the amount of edict creatures, could you see a 2nd Siege in the board? For the control/midrange match ups. Also how to you see only 2 drawing cards going? Well or not? Particularly in matches where you want card advantage.
Mine was going in the same direction to a point. Here's what I'm looking at currently. All liable to change. I think I will only have access to 2 Hangarbacks though
EDIT: @Mr Rotten regarding the edict creatures, could I suggest going 2:1 mb and 1:1 sb instead of 3 of one mained a 2 of the other sided? Same reasons as it was suggested when we were running the edict effects previously.
1.) 2nd Palace Siege in the board?
A: Yes absolutely; the reason I've opted for just 1 is because there's Read the Bones that can help me draw into it; but then there's also Sidisi that can help me Tutor it up. But VS Control; def wouldn't mind a 2nd copy of it for sure. I might even see if I can find room for a 2nd copy in the board.
2.) 2/1 Edict Creature Main and 1/1 Edict Creatures Side?
A: Yea that's fine; I may even do that too.
3.) 2 Hangarbacks?
A: To be honest; I don't know if I myself like all 4. Because so far in testing the revised list; I feel like my hand is getting clumped up with them because I'm able to drop 1; kill it with a Sidisi or Edict; the Palace Siege returns it; and I end up with another. And sure; I can cast it too; but I think 3 might be a fine way to go. I would think 2 is too low; but 3 might be a solid choice. I'll test that as well. At any rate; if I cut a Hangarback it'll be for 1 of 2 things that I'll add in it's place. Another Bile Blight; or a Murderous Cut.
A1: Murderous Cut? There's really nothing in the deck that takes advantage of our filling Graveyard; so I think Cut's could be a fine option.
A2: 3rd/4th Bile Blight? Hangarbacks + Bile Blight I think play very nice together; so if I lower the number of Hangarbacks; it'll be to add another Blight or 2. VS these very aggressive decks; I think you're going to want 6 to 8 Turn 2 plays to slow them down a bit.
4.) No Sidisi?
A: I'll say; one of the reasons I wanted to bring Sidisi back; because of the 1 of's I like to run in the sideboard. Incidentally because of the 1 of's in the main too... The 1 of Ugin; the 1 of Palace Siege. It could easily be a 3rd Gray Merchant; but I really like having Sidisi around; I realize it's super slow if you're up against the aggressive decks; but that's why I've stacked so hard VS those decks. I feel with the RE-addition of the Edict Creatures; Sidisi; adding the 3rd Den Protector main; we'll be better VS Midrange decks; and we'll be even more grindy VS the Control decks. So I'm stacking a bit more VS the Speedier Decks out of the side to ensure we can catch back up in the match. I think this is the best direction to go; I feel the last build was stacking too much VS the Speedier decks; which left alot of issues VS the Abzan Midranges; the Dragon Decks; etc. etc. And left us less Grindy VS the Control decks. The results I had from Game Day told me exactly that... among other things.
Let me just start off by saying that I've been away from Standard for a while mainly because I found it boring, even with Origins dropping. But then I found this thread and just knew I had to build this deck. Not only did I drop the money for the cards in paper magic before even testing, but because it's so cheap I made my first foray into MTGO it today and I got to say the deck performs pretty well.
I really like that the devotion deck has taken on pretty much a Rock-type shell and in the original Rock colors to boot. From my admittedly little experience on MTGO with the deck (I have to play it on paper) the deck can be very grindy. The SB is geared heavily against control as I think it's a terrible G1 matchup but I actually should have beaten it today in 3 games as I hit UB Dragons with a double thoughtseize which cleared the way for the God of the Dead as I began to bury him in card advantage, but my noobiness in MTGO caused me to throw out a Mistcutter for 1 when it could've hit for 6 and that eventually led me to a loss by timeout (once again caused by inexperience with the software).
So the major things you'll see different are the Heralds. Idk for sure if they're good enough in here, but I used to play BW at the start of the block and it did work so I figured I'd throw it in here. I'm surprised I haven't been able to flip a Den Protector into Herald and ride that to victory even once as I thought that would be a near common occurrence. The other thing in here is Soul of Innistrad. I agree with the sentiment that there needs to be a bit more oomph at the top end with the haymakers, and I've tried Ugin, but the 8 mana is just too difficult for this deck. So I figured I'd throw out SoI as he also shined out of the SB in my BW deck and I think he could possibly be even better here with the ability to get back Den Protectors or chain multiple Merchants together. Speaking of which having SoI out makes it much easier to slam a languish onto a board with Merchant as you can just get it back. Of course, I haven't actually drawn the card yet so this is all theorycrafting but I think he's a great addition with a lot of raw power and resiliency built in. Also, I have Garruk in here over Ugin once again simply because of the mana cost. There are games where I would've lost if I had Ugin because I couldn't cast it, but I drew my seventh land and Garruk turned the game around.
I'm still trying to get in games against other Midrange decks. I've played a lot of UR artifacts/mill and I already mentioned I punted against UB Dragons, but I think the Abzan decks are playing in the Daily Events and I'm not comfortable enough with MTGO to go in there, but maybe when I do I'll stream a Daily or something. We'll see. For now, I'm just glad to back playing Magic with a deck that's actually fun.
Not a bad place to start at all!
I honestly have zero gripes or recommendations about your list.
Looks good!
I've made a change to my most recent list; I felt things were becoming a bit too one dimensional; and for a week that's fine... but once the word is out and it becomes clear how to stop the Devotion Train; it's stopped.
So I've taken a few steps back and reverted back to the Hangarback list.
Just modified a few things and I'm going to give it another run...
This time I'm going to stick with it for a bit longer and work out the kinks/growing pains.
Notes:
#1: So as you can see; I've gone back to the Hangarback Walker. I really like what this guy brings to the table VS ANY of the matchups. VS the Speedier Red decks; he comes out on Turn 2 to stop aggressive decks. I love that it trades with a Dragon Fodder. And it just gets bigger and bigger. The reason I CUT the Hangarbacks from the list is because the deck shifted dramatically and I got rid of the the Edict Creatures; and Sidisi. It's true; I think BattleSpawn mentioned it first; once you take out the tools to SACRIFICE Hangarback to force the Tokens; it does become a bit of a different card and a bit more awkward. Once you have the ability to SAC Hangarbacks to get the Tokens; it's much much better and becomes more useful.
#2: So on that note; the Edict Creatures are back! Fleshbag Marauder and Merciless Executioner. I've noticed recently that the Red Decks are starting to come down to earth a bit... maybe it's mostly people are tired of playing it... or the other decks are catching up and making the appropriate adjustments. With that said; Hangarbacks go a long way to slow down the Aggro decks; while 3CMC Edict creature comes in right behind it and kills a creature that is sitting on your opponents side.
#3: Also back is Sidisi, Undead Vizier! Playing some 1 of's in the sideboard; in the mainboard; it just felt right to bring back Sidisi. I think Sidisi and Hangarback are a nice pair; and fetching up your Palace Siege so you can play it the next turn after say maybe a Thoughtseize to check if the coast is clear? Sign me back up! I enjoyed it greatly before; but I just felt it was too slow... But I'm going to give it another try... I think now that I have a better understanding of the meta; I want to worth with this again.
#4: And still; we're sticking with the Palace Siege! Palace Siege is BACK and it is back to being a great trump card in an attrition match. VS the Midrange Decks; put it on KHANS and keep bringing back your Edict Creatures; VS the Control Decks, you're good with either Dragons or Khans; but mostly I like Khans again because you can bring back your Den Protectors to MORPH and get a card back from the GY again and again. VS the Red Decks; stick it on Dragons to keep ahead of their burn spells. Sure; I fully admit that on Turn 5 it doesn't do much; but the early game is a bit more stable than it used to be. Hangarbacks; Thoughtseize; Bile Blight; and the Edict Creatures; that outta do a nice job at keeping aggro decks slowed down. Post Board things improve even more.
#5: SIDEBOARD - Much of the plan stays the same... Liliana, Heretical Healer comes in VS the Red Decks; I use her as a pseudo Vampire Nighthawk; if she flips that's fine too. Put out the 2/2 Zombie and start punishing them for sandbagging burn spells. Liliana VS Control decks; comes in with the Edict Creatures and with the mainboard; shes pretty easy to FLIP and start forcing them to discard their hand. Thoughtseize is for any Card Advantage; any chance you get Den Protector bringing back Thoughtseize to nab more cards; with Liliana plucking away at the rest.
#6: SIDEBOARD - More Edict Creatures; as I started to mention a few replies ago; I think 2/2 Languish/Crux if a fine split; I'm opting for a 3/2 Split; much like certain other individuals believe that Languish is too slow VS the Aggressive decks; I tend to disagree. Between Hangarbacks in this list; Bile Blights; and Post Board bringing in more; Languish really punishes them for over extending. Let them!!! The Hangarback Shananigans that this deck can pull off; it's fairly reasonable to expect them to overextend hoping you don't have the Languish. Languish is pretty back breaking... But the point is; I think bringing in MORE Languish or Crux is a mistake; VS the aggressive decks relying on 4 Languish or more than 3 Crux is def not the right way to go. You want to bring in more cheap 3CMC or lower removal spells so that Languish and Crux clean up the rest. I've opted for additional Edict Creatures; because they're going to also be great VS the Midrange Decks; the Dragon Decks; etc.. etc..
#7: SIDEBOARD - Hornet Queen; it was suggested as a Abhorrent Overlord Replacement. First; let me be clear... I think I still like Overlord better; but I'm going to test Hornet Queen; I see alot of great potential here!! Not going to lie... The reason Overlord is still somewhat favored to me is because if you stick a Titan; maybe Turn 5 stick a Gary? Then follow it up with a Overlord? That's 7 1/1 Harpies. Hornet Queen only ever nets 4 1/1 Hornets; but the kicker for me is that they are Flying and Death Touched. That could prove to be very very valuable. I love the idea of bringing this in VS any of the Midrange decks; especially the Dragon Decks that are planning to Fly over the Top of Titans and Gary. The great thing about Hornet Queen is that I can kill her; and bring her back to cast her again and again. Same idea I had with the Overlord; but because of Overlord's SAC Clause; he was easier to send to the yard to bring him back. But I will play test the Hornet Queen and see how it goes.
#8: SIDEBOARD - x5 Ench/Art hate spells; starting off with 2 Reclamation Sage; the synergy is back. Killing Reclamation Sage with one of our Edicts or Exploit to Sidisi; bringing it back with Liliana; Palace Siege; or even Den Protector to cast it again.
#9: VS RED/X Speedy Decks - I fully admit; not having the 4 Bile Blights Mainboard; not having the full 4 Gray Merchant now; it's possible this matchup does suffer a little bit GM1. But with Hangarbacks; Thoughtseize; Bile Blights; Edict Creatures; Downfalls; and still hitting a Timely Gray Merchant; it's not completely impossible to win GM1's VS them. But POST Board things improve greatly!!!
#10: VS Rally/CoCo Decks - Another matchup I feel could be weaker now that I've opted to not do the Tormod's Crypts and Infinite Obliteration in the side. I've gone to more removal; mainboarding 3 Den Protectors now too; I admit that it's going to require some great play and no mistakes. Being Den Protector savvy; returning removal; sweepers; using Palace Siege and Liliana's to bring back Creatures; gain life; and keep the pressure on. It's something I'll keep an eye on; but I think it could be ok.
#11: VS Midrange/Dragons/Monster Decks - I feel has greatly improved.
#12: VS Control - Still about the same as it was before... I consider it 50/50; they hate playing this deck; and it's hella fun for me to watch them squirm as they have to play around my Disruption; and my specialized Threats.
And that about covers it... this is what i'm back to play testing; I will be running it on Tuesday.
Raptors won't be for everyone and if I didn't already have my playset, I probably wouldn't suggest it. As I said earlier, even with the core of the deck intact, there is still quite a bit of room for innovation. I thought hangarbacks were fantastic. Someone else brought up tasigur. He's in my latest build and offers a different dynamic, but one that I feel fits. All of this has kept the thread healthy, even if it veers of course every now and then (guilty of that as well).
Absolutely agreed; I appreciate the fact you haven't budged from your take and you're using my posts and rants to help further your take along too.
So I believe you may have been right. Splashing for green may be our best option. I've been wrecked by Den Protector so many times this past week. I can't imagine not putting it into may deck at this point. But it becomes a slippery slope of sorts. If I'm running Protector, why not run Deathmist Raptor? If I'm running Raptor, why not run Collected Company? If I'm running Company, why not run Abzan Rally? Not saying I won't try her, but... I just feel she's stronger in other builds better than ours currently is, and makes me think running those decks may just bee the better option. But I won't give up on us!
So a couple of things on this.
1. The reason we are not running collected Company or Abzan rally is because those are very different styles of decks. We aren't trying to jam in 30 creatures at 3 cmc or less for collected company. They are perfectly strong strategies, but fit into an Aggro / midrange rather than attrition / control.
This doesn't diminish the value of den protector in our builds at all. Den protector is a means to an end and adds a ton of resilience to the deck. We can only run a max of 4 of any particular card. With den protector, you essentially extend that range which allows you to run your opponent out of answers.
2. Deathmist Raptor. As far as I'm concerned, raptor should be discussed. I am currently running it in my build and it has been nothing short of fantastic. There are a couple of ways someone can approach utilizing den protector as an alternate win con. We can grow den protector to get around most creatures (cards like Eternal Thirst, Herald of Torment, etc) or we can toss in our favorite dinosaur (or most loathed depending on what side of the table you are on).
Being able to always profitably trade with opponents AND constantly bring them back while grabbing a titan or Gary is pure card advantage. It does add a bit more green into the build, but keep in mind that I don't care about casting them face up on T3. If I can, cool. It is a utility card that I'm more than happy to discard into the graveyard.
Agreed with all these points; I completely ignored his comments about CoCo or Rally... the title of the thread is Mono Black Control.
Sure over the course of the months since January since I first designed and posted the the first version; we've had a few slight splashes; but it's core is still very Mono Black.
With that being said; BattleSpawn has put in a ton of work on this thread too and although we have very different takes on Black/g Control/Midrange/Attrition; as I have he's experienced some good success with his builds too.
His builds make better use out of Whip and he does run the Raptor; I won't go there but I can't deny it; it does look good.
Although I won't go that direction myself; I appreciate his feedback that has helped continue development of the thread and the deck and he's contributed alot so I appreciate our different takes on things.
Th3M4g1cM4n...and with that; if you're interested in building a CoCo or Rally deck; I trust you'll have no problem finding a thread discussing those archtypes; ...they're pretty popular
I like to build obscure homebrews myself; try to come up with decks that beat meta games; even if it's just on my LGS and punish people who play the popular things and keeping their thinking inside the box.
No problem man; I'm glad you didn't take anything I said personally; cuz honestly that's the only way we learn.
I am honored at the fact you took my list to your Event; and I feel really bad that you didn't get Positive Results by it; I feel as though I failed you and this thread honestly.
I really do take it personally; which is why I wanted to take as much time as I could to dissect your breakdown and see where maybe I can provide enough feedback to help you improve.
So no worries man at all; hope I helped; and I hope you stick around and continue to provide feedback... Real Life comes first; so don't worry about not getting to test; getting REAL matches in is always the best substitute; practice practice practice.
It's a bit of a failing of mine to over board. So you would've done -2 Blight +2 Sage?
Honestly; from that list I might have kept the Blights because they kill alot of their creatures; instead I might of dropped some of the Self Pain things.
Erebos I feel doesn't help much in this kind of Matchup; and easily can drop down to 3 Read the Bones.
Here's the Summary:
-1 Erebos, God of the Dead
-1 Read the Bones
-2 Thoughtseize
+2 Reclamation Sage
+2 Infinite Obliteration
Something along this line...
If you really wanted the Crypts; I would then drop a Gray Merchant and a Titan?
I like a few Thoughtseizes; so you can take a peek at critical times; and low and behold you can always Den Protector it back for extra Peeks and disruption.
My theory with siding them in is I saw 1 DL Silum and 1 Drifting Death in G1, so I know this style of control runs ~5 wincons, so take them out and they can't win. I cut the Priest for the 4th Languih in the board.
If I'd seen Icefalls in G1, I'd've kept a couple on Languishes in.
The thing you gotta becareful with though is going too ALL IN on 1 way of thinking... what if they had Tutelage sideboard? Some do..
What if Ashiok was a problem?
What if it was a bigger disruption package?
My UB Control list runs ZERO creatures...
So for me; VS them; I expect to be able to Thoughtseize or Lilliana Discard these threats; or maybe side in one of the Obliterations VS them IDK.
It's not a terrible plan; but I have since cut 1 Obliteration from the side and gone to just a x1 of.
I would consider bringing it in VS a UB Dragons deck for sure; but then again I might just keep the Crux around and hit them with Discard/Disruption from Thoughtseize and Liliana and just hope to Crux a board of dragons.
Yea. I'll agree with saying I need to work on shuffling a bit. I've started to Pile Shuffle more between each game in the past couple of weeks, and I think I did it for R1, 2 and 5. and once in R3. Yep, makes sense.
It's an easy thing to overlook when you're playing Magic; dealing with alot of bad luck; and trying to analyze how... why... where you can do better.
Leave no stone unturned... who knows; maybe your shuffling routine is good; but examine it, might find a better routine that works and you like it.
Makes sense; one thing I'm starting to think though is instead of going for another Languish; perhaps it's time to put some Edict creatures in the side.
I've found when I side in Languish and put it at a 4 Languish 2 Crux split; I find that I end up wanting Crux more cuz they brought in more Tougher creatures or something.
I'm finding it hella awkward in some matchups... I'm starting to believe that either a 2/2 Split is fine; or a 3 Languish 2 Crux; and then out of the side do something like Edict Creatures or more Cheaper Spot Removal like Ultimate Prices or Murderous Cuts.
It's more that it just seems to happen every time. I really wish I was able to find the time to properly test, etc myself. So then I wasn't basically taking a netdeck built for a different meta.
My local meta game is all over the joint with 2 dedicated control players and then everyone else is mixed between aggro and midrange, with midrange being slightly more prevalent (Aggro decks are: 2 mono R - 1 too many creatures, 1 netdeck winning version, 1 abzan, 1 gw, 1 rb. Midrange are: Abzan wierd stuff (was running Hedonist Cove in multiples last week, etc), 2 Jeskai Tempo, 1 bg constellation, 1 Bx (was Bw last I saw it) midrange/control deck, 1 Elves. Then Control is Sultai and 4 colour (not G). On top of this we generally have a couple of people show up with random decks each week).
All the hands I kept I thought was find but 1, and it was through the 20 mins of solitaire play that I was farily sure I could keep it (Swamp, Downfall, 2 Blights, Lili and Read vs Mono R).
Yea I hear that; my meta is also all over the place; but for the most part it's the same meta that you would normally get on a bigger stage...
The format as a whole no matter the meta big or small is quite aggressive.
So you need to make sure removal or early game is strong to deal with that; while still being able to move into a Strong Midrange game powerful enough to win.
I've actually got a bit of a redesign on the horizon; reverting it back a bit and trying again.
The thing about Homebrews is it's always changing; it's never finished; when it's finished; it's usually about that time to move on from it... LOL It's odd how that seems to happen.
With the fact you have so little time to Play Test; I would just stick with this... the worst thing is taking a very very expensive deck Tier 1; not getting any practice with it; and still losing.
I feel this deck is borderline not nearly as expensive as most; and I think it's capable of winning FNM's no matter the meta.
Just gotta keep ironing out the kinks and tweeking it to your own meta is all.
All meta's are slightly different here and there... so don't be afraid to adjust it a little bit or ask questions.
1) Erebos, God of the Dead: I know you felt like this card was a "do nothing" card most of the time. The problem is that you don't have ANY early 3-1 drop permanents that can help you activate his Devotion and turn him into a creature by Turn 4. So you're not getting the most out of him.
Well because this thread is "CONTROL" thread; generally we're not running 1, 2 or 3 Drops to "Activate" Erebos.
In these shells Erebos is used as Utility; he does eventually activate but most importantly in the begining he's a "Opponents Can't Gain Life" enchantment; but he's also a source of Draw when you're digging for a Gray Merchant or something else.
The thing I will say though is because of how aggressive the format is; it may not be the best thing right now; I toss it IN and OUT of my lists constantly...
2) Languish and Crux of Fate: Personally, I now believe that Languish is an over-hyped card. I used to speak it's praises, until I realized how slow it is against aggro decks. Especially when you run 3-4 of them in the deck. The question becomes, how many 4 Toughness creatures do we expect to encounter that our spot removal can't handle on it's own? The only decks I've encountered that this becomes an issue with is G/R Dragons, which utilizes Stormbreath Dragon, Thunderbreak Regent, and Courser of Kruphix. I feel like Drown in Sorrow is still a better over-all removal spell and it deserves a second look. Play around with the numbers and see if you can fit it in in place of a Crux of Fate or Languish.
Personally I think we were all pretty high on Languish when it was first spoiled; and I think INITIALLY it was amazing.
What I have started to see lately though is you def want a combination of Crux + Languish; because I'm starting to see Rhino's popping back up more; Tasigurs; and other creatures that have 5 or more Toughness.
Not to mention Dragon Decks are starting to find their footing again and making adjustments to combat the Red Aggressive decks.
BUT: Languish is still solid VS Red Decks; VS Aggro Decks; VS Rally/CoCo decks.
So it's still great in MOST matchups; but I don't know that we want all 4 Languish Mainboard; I think a 3 Languish 2 Crux of Fate is a fine place to be with the spot removal and other things to clean up the rest.
3) Whip of Erebos: There's no reason you shouldn't be running this card in your deck. NONE. It helps activate Devotion on BOTH Erebos, God of the Dead and Gray Merchant of Asphodel. Plus you can whip back the previously mentioned cards plus Erebos's Titan for RIDICULOUS amounts of damage and lifegain. Which brings me to my next point: Gray Merchant. You don't need to run it as a "4 of". It's a 5 mana spell, meaning it's a very costly spell to cast in the first place, and you very rarely want to have two of them in your hand at any one time. 2 will do.
First of all it's MY deck; I put in the work; the testing.
Second of all; I disagree completely that Whip "NEEDS" to be in THIS deck or the adamant opinion saying "There is no reason you shouldn't be running" it...
Fact is; there's really only 1 or 2 cards "IN THIS CURRENT LIST" that you'd want to Whip back.
What other creatures is there? You don't Whip Den Protectors; you don't whip the God.
There's 8 Targets that you "MIGHT" want to Whip back; x4 Titan and x4 Gray Merchant.
You really only want to Whip back Gray Merchant "IF" it's going to net you some great value; and I suppose in some cases you whip him back and you'll gain 4 Life from Devotion 4.
In other cases you may have a Titan on the board; Whip back Gary and gain 7.
But how often will that be the case with only 8 targets?
I feel there will be times you'll draw a Whip; and have no creature on the board; or in the yard... so then what?
With the amount of Kolaghan's Command; Ench/Art hate being run; I'm just not convinced Whip is needed in a deck with so few Whip targets.
Now; where we will agree on; in BattleSpawn's list; he runs more creatures than I have; and so I feel that Whip was definitely a better way to go in his list.
4) Palace Siege: I've never been a fan of this card personally. It's just too expansive to cast for what it wants to do. You don't have an low mana cost creatures you can cast aside from Den Protector to make it even worth the time or mana you invest in it.
Fair point here; once the deck shifted to what it is NOW - The List that He Ran was my most recent list that I posted; the single Palace Siege was less important and could potentially be cut.
There was much more action on either the (DRAGONS) or (KHANS) side...
With that being said; it was still very nice in the Control matchups when you stuck it; and started getting extra value out of your Den Protectors; bringing back any Gray Merchant of Asphodel that they may have Killed or Countered; etc... etc...
So Palace Siege did bring alot of value in the earlier lists; definitely it's usefulness got phased out a bit with the later lists.
5) Liliana, Heretical Healer: I'm curious as to why you're running her in the sideboard instead of the main. But again, you're not running any low mana 3-1 creatures you can use as fodder or sacrifice outlets to ignite her spark and flip her. She's so fragile as is that I'd say more than not, she's bolted, exiled, or spot removed the moment you get her out onto the battlefield, so it's best to try to get her planeswalker side online sooner rather than later.
Nailed it... Again; I'm assuming since you seem to be new to the thread you must not have followed things at all.
The earlier builds ran the Edict Creatures and some Exploit things; so she was much easier to activate.
But once the deck shifted; it wasn't as easy to activate; so then she became just a "Role Player".
The Roles I use her in because again; this is MY list; I designed it...
#1: VS Mono Red as a pseudo Vampire Nighthawk... You're right; shes fragile in the instance that she can easily be Lightning Striked away; or Stoke the Flames away; but if they're spending those spells to kill her; I'm fine with that exchange; it basically keeps it from hitting me. If they don't do that; shes doing to gain me some life throughout the game. And in the event I do FLIP her in that matchup; I get a 2/2 Blocking Zombie; and start to punish them for Sandbagging.
#2: VS Control; I bring in some creatures that can easily die; shes flipped much more easily; and her Up Tick is much more valuable in those matchups. You pitch Creatures so that you can get them back later via Liliana or the Palace Siege that "you're not a fan of".
6) Abhorent Overlord: I think you added it into the deck as a token generator? If so, you can do better. Hornet Queen comes down a turn earlier and doesn't require a clause (doesn't require devotion to be met) for it's ETB effect to trigger. Plus it costs 7 mana. Against Control, that's just way too slow. He'll get countered more often than not.
So again; this is MY list; he took my list to the event...
And as far as this suggestion is concerned; I agree 100% with this suggestion.
I leave no stone unturned when I design a deck; but I completely admit this is a Stone that was left unturned.
Having gone more deeper into the Green Splash; having 3 Green Sources to cast a Hornet queen is completely doable and you're absolutely right; it is much better.
With that being said; I do like the SAC effect from the Overlord; the way I play my sideboard; I totally use that to my advantage; but either way... Hornet Queen would be better; no doubt about it.
Good call!
EDIT: Hornet Queen actually is GGG and is the same cost as Abhorrent Overlord = 7CMC. But with that said; I still think it's doable; and probably better than Overlord; although I did make great uses out of his SAC Clause. So I don't know; I'd have to test it.
7) Ugin, the Spirit Dragon: I have mixed feelings about him. In the three tournaments I've played these past two weeks with my own MBD Control deck, I've only been able to cast him twice. And both times he was promptly Hero's Downfalled after only one activation of his loyalty abilities, usually his -X one. It's just super hard to get enough lands onto the battlefield to cast him without dying first. I've been thinking about at least adding a ramp creature of some kind to the deck. Probably Elvish Mystic as a "4 of".
LOL
With all do respect; no on the Mystic.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon by design was included in my builds simply because this is a BLACK deck first and foremost; it started off as Mono Black Control; at one point with a Red Splash for Kolaghan's Command; and now my list has shifted to a Green Splash for Den Protectors and Art/Ench hate.
Ugin serves as a way to wipe EVERYTHING and reset....
Fact is you don't worry about Hero's Downfall when casting Ugin; he's either a Finisher; or a RESET BUTTON; so if you're casting it to Finish; then if they have "IT"; they have it... find another finish.
If you're casting it for a RESET BUTTON; let them Downfall it; you'll get it back later.
You mentioned you've been running Mono Black; I'm interested to see your list?
G1 I kept 1 Titan, 1 Den Protector, 2 Read the Bones and 4 land. My draw steps for this game were: 1 Protector, 1 Read the Bones and land (this is with 2 scry lands putting lands on the bottom). I dropped Titan on T4 after holding up Downfall on T3 instead of casting Read and then he just had enough pressure that I was never able to cast Read.
Sided: -2 Bile Blight -4 Thoughtseize +2 Crypt (had Whip/Pharika/Protector action going), +1 Overlord, +1 Back +2 Rec Sage. I completely missed the Languish in my board (-1 Cyypt +1 Languish if I'd realised)
G2 I kept what I thought was an ok hand. I saw 2 Crypts, 2 Blights, a Downfall, a Titan and then died with 4 lands looking at 3 Garys and a Seige.
TLDR: Got flooded G1, mana screwed G2 and saw 3 removal spells in the match)
0-1
So a little bad luck here; but honestly I have some questions about the Sideboard plan.
Would you agree that the deck isn't necessarily about SPEED; it's more about Grinding Opponents out.
You kill their first creature; they whip it back.
So honestly I feel like the only thing needed here would be Reclamation Sages; that I kind of like Thoughtseize to stay.
I don't think Tormod's Crypt are really that needed; I feel like once you destroy the Whip; what else are they doing to bring creatures back?
Also; the Unravel the Aether may have been worth bringing in for Pharika; but yea; personally I think I would of left the Thoughtseizes and just brought in the Reclamation Sages; and maybe the extra sweeper too.
G2 We both kept 7 and he had the Thoughtseize again. I cast Obliteration on T4 (Drifting Death) and found out he had a lot of Icefall Regents in his deck, which I didn't expect. He had 3 Digs in his bottom 6 cards and then after it was shuffled/cut he ripped 2 Digs off the top and I just couldn't come back. Also, whenever I seemed to stick a threat, he managed to top exactly what he needed -.-.
0-2. Currently only got to actually play the game 1 game out of my first 4. This guy was really cool though.
So again; sounds like a bit of bad luck in GM1.
As for the sideboard plan; I'm not sure I like 2 Infinite Obliterations coming in VS them (I believe in my current list I lowered the number in the side to x1); they run so few creatures; once you get the first one I don't see the 2nd one being that valuable.
I like the Lily decision; I'm ok yanking the Bile Blights; I don't know that I would of cut all the Languish; I mean sure, you can't Languish the Silumgar, the Drifting Death; but they do run the Icefall Regents; it's worth keeping it around even as a 1 of siding out 2.
With that being said; I would of cut back on the Gray Merchants in this matchup; I think cutting 2 would have been fine if you're bringing in Overlord + Priest and Lilianas.
It's a war of attrition; not going to be about speed.
G1 wasn't a game on Magic, we both flodded and a 5/5 >>> 2/1s and 1/1s
Sided -4 Thoughtseize +4 Lili (Looked past Languish here too - -1 Ugin). Also was debating afterwards adding in 2 Rec Sages for earlyish blockers.
G2 I mulled to 6 and kept a shifty hand on Swamp, Downfall, 2 Blights, Lili and Read. Topped land for the next few turns. Lost here because I didn't kill a Satyr Firedancer when I had the chance and he got 8 free damage out of it. I deserved to lose this one for that.
G3 was a great game and really came down to the ropes. Siege killed him the turn after he got me :/.
0-3
More bad luck man!!! 3 Rounds in a row; you're mulling and getting mana screwed.... geeesh!!!
Perhaps you need to examine your shuffling routine??? I used to have this problem a ton... No really; A TON!!!!!! And then I developed a completely new more thorough shuffling plan and I just stick to it...
I hate shuffling; it takes too much time... it's annoying; but when I stay disciplined and stick to my new plan; I've had much much more success with it.
I like the Ugin, the Spirit Dragon still even though it's 8; sometimes you do easily get to 8 and being able to ping one of their creatures for 3; or X=0 and clear a board of Tokens; or start going up stairs with the damage only to Ultimate and gain 7 life.
That has come in handy more often then you might think...
I generally take out the Self Pain cards; so it would be -4 Thoughtseize -1 Erebos, God of the Dead, -1 or 2 Read the Bones and bring in whatever I'm bringing in from there depending on the style of Red or what they might be bringing to the matchup.
I've seen some go a bit bigger Post Board and do Outpost Sieges and such...
Perfect again!!! But again; when I bring in Overlord; I also bring in the Priest of the Blood Rite.
In this matchup it is generally a bit faster; but you can afford to go down to 3 Gray Merchant of Asphodel to make room for the Priest.
The reason I like Priest here also is because of the 5/5 Flying Demon; generally can out class a Stormbreath Dragon; a Thunderbreak Regent; so I like it.
And because of the Palace Siege and Den Protector; Overlord kills the Priest; and the other cards bring it back to cast it again and again.
Thoughts
Starting to get really disheartened playing this, just because I can never make results happen when they matter. I'm also starting to feel that this deck is too hard for me to play. I seem to only beat 'bad players' with this deck and as soon as someone of my skill level or better comes along, I get steamrolled. That said, I want to get this deck to work, just the power level feels below most other decks currently - like you need to be ahead to win, if that makes any sense?
Totally understand man; if I had taken a beating like that; I'd be very disheartened and discouraged too.
But I think as a Magic Player playing in Events and being a Competitive Player; you have to take your results with a grain of salt...
Sure; there are obvious times where you bomb a tournament and it's obvious that the deck idea is horrible; the deck itself is poorly designed; and the ideas are just too cute or not cut out for the format.
THEN: There are times you gotta just look at the facts... ask yourself?
How much bad luck where you having? Was it more than usual? What could I be doing to differently?
Perhaps some of the bad luck was self inflicted by keeping Bad Hands? IE: Keeping a Hand with Crux and Languish and like Gray Merchant when you're know you're up against a Red Speed Aggro deck.
Perhaps all of that bad luck stuff could be solved by just being more detailed and putting more effort into your shuffling routine?
You also gotta ask yourself; is the Mainboard somewhat meta gamed towards a certain expectation of what the field might look like? But the field ended up being slightly different than you expected?
VS a bunch of the matchups; I don't think 4 Gray Merchants were needed for example... The reason I went 4 Gray Merchant is because my meta was super aggressive; super fast; tons of BURN; and so I really wanted to improve my chances of having Turn 5 Merchant.
If the format was slower; then I could drop 1 Merchant; and go with something else...
...those little things are actually huge and could make or break a deck before it even gets started
So at the end of the day you gotta consider the fact that this is a Home Brew for the most part.... and because of that; you're basing the Home Brew off a certain expected meta game; and when you show up for the event; if that meta game shifts too much; it could throw off the entire deck.
That's why now a days you see less and less innovation and more people net decking last weeks best deck.
It's hard to analyze the direction of a meta game; and it's hard to anticipate those changes and stay a few steps ahead.....
Some notes:
#1: First; you'll notice I cut the Hangarback Walker. Let me just say that I think they were fantastic and still could be in here somewhere; the idea was thought to just move them to the side; but I feel like they are either Mainboard worthy or not at all. At any rate; I still think they are one heck of an investment. I also still think they do a wonderful job at slowing down Fast Aggro decks. I think it's a fantastic card for a "Control" deck as well. The thing is; I never considered the fact that with my latest adjustment; being on 4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel 4 Erebos's Titan 4 Bile Blight that perhaps the Red Aggro match would already be good. I saw in Patric Chapin's list Hangarbacks; I on the side was brewing Hangarback Control decks with Thopter Spy Network... So I was very very high on the card and thought it was a natural fit in Mono Black. When I was running Merciless Executioners, Fleshbag Marauder, more Palace Sieges, a few copies of Sidisi, Undead Vizier; I think Hangarback Walker would of been FANTASTIC in that style of list. WHY? Because that style of list is a bit slower. So you need that 2 Drop WITH Bile Blight that can create ugly situations for aggro matchups to slow them down. And Sidisi EXPLOITING Hangarback by that point making 3 to 5 tokens or Edict Creatures sacrificing Hangarback was fantastic... When I made the change a few days ago to cut out the Edict creatures; to cut out the Sidisi and lower Palace Siege all the way down to 1; Hangarback's role just changed significantly... Hangarback I feel shines greatly VS the Speedier Aggro matchups; but I feel like those matchups are already in my favor; so these got the axe.
#2: Den Protector as we all know is just amazing... I've found room to add the 3rd copy I have to the mainboard. The reason I'm opting for only 3 copies is because they have the same problem that a Sidisi or a Palace Siege does; they do very little the Turn they come out. You either cast it on Turn 3 for MORPH hoping it survives when you goto untap on Turn 4. Or you cast it on Turn 5 for MORPH; and in response to any removal spell or at the end of your opponents turn UNMORPH it returning something back to you hand that you need for your Turn 6. So although it's about the same speed level as Sidisi or a Palace Siege; not really seeing the fruits of labor from either card till Turn 6; I like Den Protector more because of the flexibility it gives. VS the Red Speedier decks; I plan to potentially side some out.
#3: Erebos, God of the Dead + 4 Read the Bones, this adjustment was made just to give the deck an ability to really dig dig dig. I enjoyed Erebos, God of the Dead in the earlier versions; but he got the axe when I went all in on the Titan + Gary plan. But I think Erebos is still a fantastic card; and there are some matcups where shutting off your opponents ability to gain life is relevant. And in some cases it's perfectly ok to be using your life total as a TOOL and draw with Erebos, 3, 4, 5 cards... Taking your life total all the way down if need be. Sure we don't do it VS the Red Decks; but VS the slower midrangey or control decks; it's perfectly acceptable to dig through your deck with an Erebos activation. Must in the same way that the old Black Devotion lists used to aggressively activate their Underworld Connections to find Gary or an answer. Also note that having 4 Read the Bones I think is actually really great; getting 1 is ideal; and getting a 2nd is even better. The best thing is getting 1 + Den Protector can mean that we have 2 Read the Bones if you return it. I have done this when I needed to dig for Answers; and VS Midrange/Control I have also done this when my life total didn't matter as much either because I had alot of life; or because they weren't in position to really be killing me; returning Read the Bones and playing it again is nice when trying to put together a plan to win.
#4 SIDEBOARD: 4 Liliana, Heretical Healer is a strategy... I've wrote about this alot; I love her in 2 specific kinds of strategies. Which ultimately she comes in alot... The real key thing though is whether or not I want to FLIP her early or later... VS the Speedier Aggro decks; I have little interest in flipping her early. She causes headaches for them; because they're damned if they do; damned if they don't... meaning Lightning Strike her or Stroke her. I'm perfectly happy with that exchange if they choose to do it. And if they don't; she can easily create even bigger problems for them. But VS Control Decks; or I also bring her in VS the Sphinx's Tutelage decks and my intention is to FLIP her as quickly as possible. The strategy of Liliana is in the matchups that I want to flip her; the extra creatures get brought in as well. So VS the Tutelage decks; I bring in all the creatures out of the side including Reclamation Sage; the idea is to FLIP her; and UP TICK her immediately; never stop up ticking her. So the best things to be pitching to the UP TICK are creatures. WHY? Because she; along with Palace Siege can bring them back. But it's still not the end of the world pitching any of your other spells because Den Protector can get them back as well. So the plan is to UP TICK Lily; even pitching Reclamation Sage; the moment they play a Tutelage; untap, take your turn; DOWN TICK Lilly where X=3 and destroy a Tutelage. Or in the case of CONTROL matchups; bring in the Abhorrent Overlord; the Priest of the Blood Rite; along with the 12 creatures in the mainboard; not being afraid to dump any of them... VS Control I'm not interested in trying to go all out and win on Turn 5; it's just simply not going to happen. So the sideboard is heavily influenced with Liliana in mind. These are my extra bombs that we felt the deck lacked... The reason I picked creatures is because it works with the rest of the deck. Picking planeswalkers like Ugin or Garruk works well with Den Protector; and that's it.
#5 SIDEBOARD: Updated to make room for 5 Cards that have ART/ENCH hate built in. Initially I was at 3; then bumped it to 4; and now I'm at 5. I think 5 is reasonable. And I really like the 2 Reclamation Sage if you consider the previous comments and synergy it brings to the table with Palace Siege and Liliana. If they happen to Mill a Reclamation Sage but we have a Active Lilly or Siege going; bring it back and start the destruction plan. I like this direction; but I don't want to go all in on it. I still love Unravel the Æther as a way to deal with Darksteel Citadel or another Ensoul'ed Artifact. I still like Unravel the Aether VS Hangarback Walker. I'll still use Unravel the Aether VS cards that Tutelage Decks use for DRAW; like Monastery Sieges or Dictates. Then using the Back to Nature or Reclamation Sages on the Tutelage itself. I think this package gives me good flexibility VS those decks; I've tested VS Tutelage decks alot; and I think I understand how to beat it. Granted; the UR One that is popping up is a different kind of animal; it's faster...
#6 SIDEBOARD: Tormod's Crypt; I love love the Crypt. It's great VS Rally; but I also brought it in the other day VS Tutelage. I still misplayed the match; but the theory was sound and had I played the match without mistakes; I would of definitely won game 2; and took it to 3 games. You keep a close eye on their board; keep a close eye on their grave yard. Once they play Tutelage; you either want to POP the Crypt and exile their Graveyard immediately; or if they have the Monastery Siege; then you don't have to do it immediately. Wait till their next activation; then POP the Crypt when they Discard to Monastery Siege so you get max value. This slows down the Mill plan significantly if they can't cast Treasure Cruise efficiently. Now; this plan isn't going to exactly work VS the UR Tutelage decks because of the cheap looting cards that they have in Tormenting Voice and the other ones... That one I admit is going to be a different kind of animal; but I feel like we can safely move to a beat down plan because they have no way to answer Titan or Gary. They play a few bounce spells; maybe they play Ætherspouts; but if you see they have Aetherspout mana up; don't over-extend into it. Send just a few dudes till the coast is clear. They don't have the FOGS like a Sultai Tutelage deck can play. I personally think the Fog Tutelage is worse...
I think everything else speaks for itself... the sideboard is where most of the changes came from.
Ok, well now that the dust has settled a bit, I feel comfortable putting my thoughts out there about the deck as it sits.
1. The deck is actually pretty solid.
Even though I felt gutted about missing out on the top 8 yesterday, the deck actually performed very well. The list I went with was predicting a very specific meta and while there was a lot of aggressive decks that I faced, I also went up against some archetypes that I'd say the deck wasn't tailored for and still held my own. There were many matches yesterday where the edict creatures would have been HUGE, but I still did well without them.
2. The deck is incredibly grindy.
I'm actually ok with this. That is part of why I found a "home" in this thread. I love this style deck and playing out long games. BUT I do feel like there is some risk here which I'll elaborate on.
3. Titan + Gary is fantastic.
I've debated dropping gary, but every time I consider it, I'm stuck at finding a better value 5 drop. Simply put I want every T4 play to be a titan and T5 Gary. I know that can't always happen, but it is an incredible engine.
4. There is something missing.
This is where I'll expand on my 2nd point as well. This deck is a grindy deck. Several of my games were going close to time which I again have no issues with. That being said, it felt like I was missing some sort of "inevitability." Titan is a great 5/5 beater, but when in top deck mode, being able to dig for answers was concerning. There are a couple of ways to approach this problem and I feel that is where the most valuable discussion will be. I'm playing around with a couple of ideas ranging from planeswalkers, to value creatures, to bombs out of the sideboard.
Other auto includes are Bile Blight and Hero's downfall (at least 3 of each).
So I'm not back to the drawing board, but I'm looking for that one or two unanswerable threats that will make the opponent scoop.
I agree with all of this...
For me my 2 Unanswerable Threats; although technically they can be answered were UGIN + Palace Siege.
Being down to 1 Palace Siege means that no many people are bringing in Enchantment hate VS us; sure the GW/x decks run a few copies of Dromoka's Command mainboard; but that's just something we will deal with.
But for the most part; Palace Siege and Ugin are scoop worthy threats that after a flurry of threats; answers; trades back and fourth; trading haymakers; then dropping Ugin... or Palace Siege; only to rebuild?
Yea; I've had many scoop in those situations.
I'm half tempted to just make the Palace Siege a 2nd UGIN or something though... IDK
Or maybe even giving Garruk another look now that we have Den Protectors.
Just some kind of bomby haymaker....
I'm not quite ready to share my most recent updates; I want to do some more testing first...
But I totally agree with Battle; although I DID Top 8; I didn't have a stellar record, but everyone was on notice...
I played the 2nd Place Seed in the Top 8 round 1 and he was basically crapping himself when he lost GM1 to me and both GM2 and 3 were very very close and I played them well and just fell a bit short.
He was totally sweating...
So I agree with Battle that maybe something else needs to be in the TOP End; another UGIN; maybe a Garruk; maybe another resilient powerful 5 Drop like Priest of the Blood Rite?
I've already been re-tooling a little bit on the side and taking a closer look.
As for what works? A successful shell?
I agree with Battle...
Mainboard
3 - 4 Thoughtseize
2 - 3 Crux of Fate
2 - 4 Languish
2 - 4 Bile Blight
3 - 4 Hero's Downfall
0 - 2 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 - 4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3 - 4 Erebos's Titan
2 - 4 Den Protector (Green Splash)
2 - 4 Read the Bones
0 - 3 Sign in Blood
0 - 2 Palace Siege
0 - 2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
24 - 25 Lands
We think alike man...
When I posted my list the other day; I had issues with not having the 4th Bile Blight; and I wanted a 3rd Read the Bones myself.
I wasn't going to share this list till this weekend after I ran it a bit more play testing and also on Friday; but your comments here encouraged me to share now.
1 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
2 Erebos's Titan
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
4 Hangarback Walker
3 Den Protector
3 Fleshbag Marauder
Spells: 19
3 Thoughtseize
2 Crux of Fate
3 Languish
4 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Read the Bones
1 Palace Siege
Planeswalkers: 1
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Lands: 25
4 Radiant Fountain
4 Jungle Hollow
4 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Silence
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Swamp
3 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Thoughtseize
1 Palace Siege
1 Hornet Queen
2 Merciless Executioner
1 Silence the Believers
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Unravel the Aether
1 Back to Nature
2 Feed the Clan
#1: Mission Accomplished; 3 Read the Bones.
#2: Mission Accomplished; 4 Bile Blight.
#3: BUT: At the expense of lowering the Devotion Package. Lowering Titans; Lowering Gary.
#4: Only 2 Titans!?!? My thought process is this... How often have we cast a Turn 4 Titan; only to feel like we want to Turn 5 Crux and it feels a little awkward? This has happened to me... obviously if casting Crux is the best play; you still do it killing your Titan knowing you can get it back. But here's what I am doing with the current list. Turn 2 Hangarback; Turn 3 having Blights open and being able to pump Hangarback. Turn 4 Downfall Mana up and being able to Pump Hangarback. Or Turn 4 Languish killing Hangarback making a few tokens. OR just continuing to ride Hangarback into Turn 5 and CRUX there. Wiping the board; making about 3 to 4 Tokens then on Turn 6 dropping the Titan. If you Crux BEFORE dropping the Titan; you have a greater chance that Titan comes down; and is INDESTRUCTIBLE because they control no creatures. OR: Worst case you Crux on 5 and cast Titan on 6 and they have put out a new creature threat... Maybe it's Bile Blightable to still trigger the Indestructible? If not; that's ok; they only have 1 dude maybe... It feels like a cleaner path to me...
#5: Only 1 Gray Merchant!?!? Yep; the thought process is if I bolster the early game the Speed Aggro decks will struggle to get me down and thus I am not in a position that I absolutely need a Turn 4 Titan and a Turn 5 Gary; because what??? If that plan doesn't happen; if say for example I don't have a Turn 4 Titan; into a Turn 5 Gary; then I'm basically dead anyways. Or if I have the Gary but no Titan? Then Turn 5 Gary only gains me 2? So I took away all that and just upped the Removal; plan on featuring Hangarbacks big time; they are my go to creature... Pump Pump Pump; then use Edict Creatures or Sidisi to DESTROY and then use Den Protectors and the Palace Siege to bring Hangarbacks back and make them BIG late game and turn them into massive beaters with a bunch of their little friends for chump blocking duty or to go on the offensive too. That's the new plan... I still wanted 1 Gary though; on the off chance I draw it; or on the off chance I just TUTOR for it from Sidisi... Gaining 2; 4; 5+ Life; taking me out of Stoke Range for example?
#6: Only 1 Palace Siege mainboard again? Yep!! And just the other day I was singing Palace Sieges praises and had it back to 2 and saying I was featuring it again. But BattleSpawn brought up a great point. VS the Speedier Aggro decks; we only need 1 and there is 1 Purpose for the the card. DRAGONS Drain 2. With all the early removal and the Hangarbacks mucking up the board; I fully expect that I will be able to drop the Palace Siege and untap so it can start triggering. VS Midrange/Control; Palace Siege plays a bigger role; thus I moved the 2nd Copy into the Side instead of Main.
#7: The other thing I missed with my last posted build was only having 2 Edict Creatures... I wanted atleast 3 main. Mission accomplished! With 2 more coming in from the side VS Slower Midrange Decks and Dragon Decks. It's been fantastic.
...and that's about it; this is my CURRENT list; not keeping anything secret from you guys.
The reason I was going to wait to post this is just because I wanted to play it either Tonight and/or On Friday and see how things felt...
One thing I try to be conscience of is when building a Brew that is unique; that is trying to do some different things than any other deck out there; expect it to change constantly...
Expect it to go through alot of ups and downs and adjustments... alot of things get shifted around; play tested; and repeated.
When one idea doesn't seem super great; then you tweek something big; you sometimes gotta go back and revisit that not great idea as the rest of the deck landscape changed and that old idea could be fine again.
IE: Hangarbacks; I had them in; then I cut them; and we're back...
So I appreciate the people who have been consistently following the thread; been play testing; been running our lists and trying and riding the wave along with us...
#KUDOS!
This is very very close to where my list has gone; more of a Draw Go style now.
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Keranos, God of Storms
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Mulldrifter
1 Living Lore
Spells: 28
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Electrolyze
3 Kolaghan's Command
3 Cryptic Command
2 Mana Leak
1 Dispel
2 Spell Snare
4 Serum Visions
1 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Watery Grave
2 Steam Vents
2 Blood Crypt
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Counterflux
1 Dispel
2 Flashfreeze
1 Sowing Salt
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Shatterstorm
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damnation
1 Pyroclasm
One of the newest additions to my deck is Living Lore.
I admit; I haven't played with the card yet; but in theory I love what it might be able to do so I am going to test it.
#1: I see it as a 5th Snapcaster Mage. Let me explain: So on Turn 7 we cast Cruel; when it resolves we are looking for 2 things. #1 Another Cruel; #2 A Snapcaster so we can Flashback Cruel on Turn 9. What if we added a 3rd thing to that list... Living Lore? So if we hit a Living Lore on Turn 7 after a Resolved Cruel; that means on Turn 8; we can cast Living Lore with Cryptic Mana available; having counter backup we drop Living Lore out there as a 7/7. On Turn 9; we Attack; if Living Lore does ANY Damage either to a Creature or to a Player; we can SAC Living Lore; cast Cruel for Free; and with the "Return Target Creature from your GY to Hand" piece of Cruel; we just return Living Lore and do it again.
#2: Grixis Guru also mentioned that this could give us a way to cast Cruel Ultimatum when our opponent has a Blood Moon out that maybe we haven't been able to bounce or destroy yet with various tools.
#3: The interesting thing is; I also run a Forbidden Alchemy. I could even consider taking the Mulldrifter and making it another Alchemy. Sometimes I get to Alchemy on Turn 3; if I see a Cruel; dumping it in the Yard doesn't feel so terrible now. Because I can Living Lore on Turn 4 or even on Turn 5 with Spell Snare backup. And potentially end up with a Turn 6 Cruel.
#4: It might be worth giving the HYBRID builds a try again that I first started to try with the Thoughtscour. One of the reasons I wasn't a fan of the Hybrid ultimately was because Thoughtscour hitting and dumping a Cruel Ultimatum to the yard just made it harder to cast it... Now with Living Lore; it gives us the chance to bring it back out of the Yard easily instead of relying on a Turn 9 Snapcaster to Cruel to get it back.
#5: Living Lore plays nice with Kolaghan's Command too.
#6: The CFB guys were trying to make Living Lore a combo piece; but what I'm proposing is that it's simply a pseudo 5th Snapcaster Mage; put it in a Control deck; we always end up having a lot of spells in the Yard; we always end up Casting Cruel if the Match goes the ways we want them to go and the way the decks are designed to go. Sure; Living Lore without Cruel looks awkward; Living Lore in our hand between Turns 1-6 is pretty blah for the most part; but I think it can give us another edge that most people won't expect.
Other than that; my list has been doing fairly well; I've been placing 2nd each week at my weekly LGS event; the 1 round I lose is mostly due to Play Mistakes.
I didn't do so hot at a PPTQ; but out of the 4 Matchups I played; I never felt Out Classed; still ironing out the Play Mistake Kinks of learning the format and learning all the decks that I have to battle.
So I'm very happy with my current list; and I'm very happy with the Sideboard; it's just a matter of continuing to plug away and grind out experience.
/Cheers
It's possible I'm underestimating that specific deck; but I feel like bring in the extra Edict Creatures; and get the Recycle system setup... Palace Siege + Edict Creatures or Liliana + Edict Creatures or Den Protector + Edict Creatures.
Maybe Silence the Believers will need to make a come back to the board.
And at the end of the day; I feel like with Hangarbacks plus the 1/1 Thopter Tokens; I'll have plenty of blocking capabilities to setup Languish/Crux/Ugin wipes.
I'm not sure what you mean by dealing with Raptors? There's plenty of removal... just kill them. IDK; I haven't had issues against Raptors; so I guess I didn't know they were a problem.
As for Pharika's Cure VS Feed the Clan; I feel the deck doesn't have issues at killing creature; Bile Blight does the job along with all the other removal.
So I'd rather get the extra 3 Life out of Feed the Clan; and if there's a Titan on board; it's an extra 8 life.
#1: You'll notice I cut the Gray Merchant of Asphodel... WHY? Well because without the Titan on Turn 4; what is it? Virtually nothing... 2/4 isn't going to get it done. 2 points of Drain isn't going to get it done.
#2: So what is the plan for Lifegain? Well; in the mainboard the Gain Lands; the Cheap Removal; the Hangarbacks all put in alot of work. Then out of the side; BattleSpawn has been testing Feed the Clan; and I think he brings up some very valid points. The worst case it gains us 5 life for only 2 Mana; at INSTANT SPEED. Best case it's when we have a Titan out and it gains us 10 Life; AT INSTANT SPEED!
So I believe that Feed the Clan might actually prove to be more valuable; quicker; and much much more flexible.
With that; here's my updated list...
4 Erebos's Titan
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
4 Hangarback Walker
2 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Den Protector
spells (18)
3 Thoughtseize
2 Crux of Fate
3 Languish
4 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Read the Bones
2 Palace Siege
planeswalkers (1)
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
land (25)
4 Radiant Fountain
4 Jungle Hollow
4 Temple of Malady
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
9 Swamp
3 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hornet Queen
3 Merciless Executioner
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Unravel the Aether
1 Back to Nature
3 Feed the Clan
Palace Siege is back in full effect in this list; sure; the issue is still true... On Turn 5 you tap out and it does nothing; you don't start to see the fruits of it's labor till Turn 6.
So the idea is that you do whatever you need to do to make sure on Turn 5 you'll survive casting it; and untapping with it to start stabilizing.
With that said; I don't think it's completely impossible... 4 Bile Blights; 4 Hangarback Walkers; 3 Thoughtseize; 4 Hero's Downfall; all put in alot of work VS the Aggro decks.
The Gain Lands keep your head above water...
And once you untap with Palace Siege; VS the Aggro Decks you start to DRAIN and stabilize... VS the Control Decks, Midrange even; chances are you're on the KHANS plan.
Bringing back Hangarbacks that have died to Edict creatures or Exploit; or to your own sweepers or from your opponents... Having a board of Thopters; bringing back the Hangarback; recasting it; and pumping it up up up; then killing it again. You never generally run out of Tokens.
Bringing back the Den Protectors? Do I really need to get into why this is amazing!?
Getting back any of the Edict Creatures VS the Midrange Decks??? Just amazing VS them...
Palace Siege is back in full effect in this list; and I'm happy where we're going...
So there you have it...
OH: and a BIG THANKS to Mr. BattleSpawn; there's a perfect example of a difference of opinion from my build; but he's put in the work; the testing; has come up with a different style of list but in keeping with the idea of what we're trying to accomplish.
All the while bouncing ideas off each other; he comes up with Feed the Clan; makes a great pitch for it; and low and behold... I actually love it; it's much faster and much more reliable than the Gray Merchant Plan.. It's cheap; it's simple; it's clean; and better yet... It doesn't Rotate. #BINGO!
1.) 2nd Palace Siege in the board?
A: Yes absolutely; the reason I've opted for just 1 is because there's Read the Bones that can help me draw into it; but then there's also Sidisi that can help me Tutor it up. But VS Control; def wouldn't mind a 2nd copy of it for sure. I might even see if I can find room for a 2nd copy in the board.
2.) 2/1 Edict Creature Main and 1/1 Edict Creatures Side?
A: Yea that's fine; I may even do that too.
3.) 2 Hangarbacks?
A: To be honest; I don't know if I myself like all 4. Because so far in testing the revised list; I feel like my hand is getting clumped up with them because I'm able to drop 1; kill it with a Sidisi or Edict; the Palace Siege returns it; and I end up with another. And sure; I can cast it too; but I think 3 might be a fine way to go. I would think 2 is too low; but 3 might be a solid choice. I'll test that as well. At any rate; if I cut a Hangarback it'll be for 1 of 2 things that I'll add in it's place. Another Bile Blight; or a Murderous Cut.
A1: Murderous Cut? There's really nothing in the deck that takes advantage of our filling Graveyard; so I think Cut's could be a fine option.
A2: 3rd/4th Bile Blight? Hangarbacks + Bile Blight I think play very nice together; so if I lower the number of Hangarbacks; it'll be to add another Blight or 2. VS these very aggressive decks; I think you're going to want 6 to 8 Turn 2 plays to slow them down a bit.
4.) No Sidisi?
A: I'll say; one of the reasons I wanted to bring Sidisi back; because of the 1 of's I like to run in the sideboard. Incidentally because of the 1 of's in the main too... The 1 of Ugin; the 1 of Palace Siege. It could easily be a 3rd Gray Merchant; but I really like having Sidisi around; I realize it's super slow if you're up against the aggressive decks; but that's why I've stacked so hard VS those decks. I feel with the RE-addition of the Edict Creatures; Sidisi; adding the 3rd Den Protector main; we'll be better VS Midrange decks; and we'll be even more grindy VS the Control decks. So I'm stacking a bit more VS the Speedier Decks out of the side to ensure we can catch back up in the match. I think this is the best direction to go; I feel the last build was stacking too much VS the Speedier decks; which left alot of issues VS the Abzan Midranges; the Dragon Decks; etc. etc. And left us less Grindy VS the Control decks. The results I had from Game Day told me exactly that... among other things.
Not a bad place to start at all!
I honestly have zero gripes or recommendations about your list.
Looks good!
I've made a change to my most recent list; I felt things were becoming a bit too one dimensional; and for a week that's fine... but once the word is out and it becomes clear how to stop the Devotion Train; it's stopped.
So I've taken a few steps back and reverted back to the Hangarback list.
Just modified a few things and I'm going to give it another run...
This time I'm going to stick with it for a bit longer and work out the kinks/growing pains.
2 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Erebos's Titan
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
4 Hangarback Walker
3 Fleshbag Marauder
3 Den Protector
Spells: 16
3 Thoughtseize
2 Crux of Fate
3 Languish
2 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
2 Read the Bones
1 Palace Siege
Planeswalkers: 1
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Lands: 25
4 Radiant Fountain
4 Jungle Hollow
4 Temple of Malady
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
9 Swamp
4 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Thoughtseize
1 Hornet Queen
2 Merciless Executioner
2 Bile Blight
2 Reclamation Sage
2 Unravel the Aether
1 Back to Nature
Notes:
#1: So as you can see; I've gone back to the Hangarback Walker. I really like what this guy brings to the table VS ANY of the matchups. VS the Speedier Red decks; he comes out on Turn 2 to stop aggressive decks. I love that it trades with a Dragon Fodder. And it just gets bigger and bigger. The reason I CUT the Hangarbacks from the list is because the deck shifted dramatically and I got rid of the the Edict Creatures; and Sidisi. It's true; I think BattleSpawn mentioned it first; once you take out the tools to SACRIFICE Hangarback to force the Tokens; it does become a bit of a different card and a bit more awkward. Once you have the ability to SAC Hangarbacks to get the Tokens; it's much much better and becomes more useful.
#2: So on that note; the Edict Creatures are back! Fleshbag Marauder and Merciless Executioner. I've noticed recently that the Red Decks are starting to come down to earth a bit... maybe it's mostly people are tired of playing it... or the other decks are catching up and making the appropriate adjustments. With that said; Hangarbacks go a long way to slow down the Aggro decks; while 3CMC Edict creature comes in right behind it and kills a creature that is sitting on your opponents side.
#3: Also back is Sidisi, Undead Vizier! Playing some 1 of's in the sideboard; in the mainboard; it just felt right to bring back Sidisi. I think Sidisi and Hangarback are a nice pair; and fetching up your Palace Siege so you can play it the next turn after say maybe a Thoughtseize to check if the coast is clear? Sign me back up! I enjoyed it greatly before; but I just felt it was too slow... But I'm going to give it another try... I think now that I have a better understanding of the meta; I want to worth with this again.
#4: And still; we're sticking with the Palace Siege! Palace Siege is BACK and it is back to being a great trump card in an attrition match. VS the Midrange Decks; put it on KHANS and keep bringing back your Edict Creatures; VS the Control Decks, you're good with either Dragons or Khans; but mostly I like Khans again because you can bring back your Den Protectors to MORPH and get a card back from the GY again and again. VS the Red Decks; stick it on Dragons to keep ahead of their burn spells. Sure; I fully admit that on Turn 5 it doesn't do much; but the early game is a bit more stable than it used to be. Hangarbacks; Thoughtseize; Bile Blight; and the Edict Creatures; that outta do a nice job at keeping aggro decks slowed down. Post Board things improve even more.
#5: SIDEBOARD - Much of the plan stays the same... Liliana, Heretical Healer comes in VS the Red Decks; I use her as a pseudo Vampire Nighthawk; if she flips that's fine too. Put out the 2/2 Zombie and start punishing them for sandbagging burn spells. Liliana VS Control decks; comes in with the Edict Creatures and with the mainboard; shes pretty easy to FLIP and start forcing them to discard their hand. Thoughtseize is for any Card Advantage; any chance you get Den Protector bringing back Thoughtseize to nab more cards; with Liliana plucking away at the rest.
#6: SIDEBOARD - More Edict Creatures; as I started to mention a few replies ago; I think 2/2 Languish/Crux if a fine split; I'm opting for a 3/2 Split; much like certain other individuals believe that Languish is too slow VS the Aggressive decks; I tend to disagree. Between Hangarbacks in this list; Bile Blights; and Post Board bringing in more; Languish really punishes them for over extending. Let them!!! The Hangarback Shananigans that this deck can pull off; it's fairly reasonable to expect them to overextend hoping you don't have the Languish. Languish is pretty back breaking... But the point is; I think bringing in MORE Languish or Crux is a mistake; VS the aggressive decks relying on 4 Languish or more than 3 Crux is def not the right way to go. You want to bring in more cheap 3CMC or lower removal spells so that Languish and Crux clean up the rest. I've opted for additional Edict Creatures; because they're going to also be great VS the Midrange Decks; the Dragon Decks; etc.. etc..
#7: SIDEBOARD - Hornet Queen; it was suggested as a Abhorrent Overlord Replacement. First; let me be clear... I think I still like Overlord better; but I'm going to test Hornet Queen; I see alot of great potential here!! Not going to lie... The reason Overlord is still somewhat favored to me is because if you stick a Titan; maybe Turn 5 stick a Gary? Then follow it up with a Overlord? That's 7 1/1 Harpies. Hornet Queen only ever nets 4 1/1 Hornets; but the kicker for me is that they are Flying and Death Touched. That could prove to be very very valuable. I love the idea of bringing this in VS any of the Midrange decks; especially the Dragon Decks that are planning to Fly over the Top of Titans and Gary. The great thing about Hornet Queen is that I can kill her; and bring her back to cast her again and again. Same idea I had with the Overlord; but because of Overlord's SAC Clause; he was easier to send to the yard to bring him back. But I will play test the Hornet Queen and see how it goes.
#8: SIDEBOARD - x5 Ench/Art hate spells; starting off with 2 Reclamation Sage; the synergy is back. Killing Reclamation Sage with one of our Edicts or Exploit to Sidisi; bringing it back with Liliana; Palace Siege; or even Den Protector to cast it again.
#9: VS RED/X Speedy Decks - I fully admit; not having the 4 Bile Blights Mainboard; not having the full 4 Gray Merchant now; it's possible this matchup does suffer a little bit GM1. But with Hangarbacks; Thoughtseize; Bile Blights; Edict Creatures; Downfalls; and still hitting a Timely Gray Merchant; it's not completely impossible to win GM1's VS them. But POST Board things improve greatly!!!
#10: VS Rally/CoCo Decks - Another matchup I feel could be weaker now that I've opted to not do the Tormod's Crypts and Infinite Obliteration in the side. I've gone to more removal; mainboarding 3 Den Protectors now too; I admit that it's going to require some great play and no mistakes. Being Den Protector savvy; returning removal; sweepers; using Palace Siege and Liliana's to bring back Creatures; gain life; and keep the pressure on. It's something I'll keep an eye on; but I think it could be ok.
#11: VS Midrange/Dragons/Monster Decks - I feel has greatly improved.
#12: VS Control - Still about the same as it was before... I consider it 50/50; they hate playing this deck; and it's hella fun for me to watch them squirm as they have to play around my Disruption; and my specialized Threats.
And that about covers it... this is what i'm back to play testing; I will be running it on Tuesday.
Absolutely agreed; I appreciate the fact you haven't budged from your take and you're using my posts and rants to help further your take along too.
Great work!
Agreed with all these points; I completely ignored his comments about CoCo or Rally... the title of the thread is Mono Black Control.
Sure over the course of the months since January since I first designed and posted the the first version; we've had a few slight splashes; but it's core is still very Mono Black.
With that being said; BattleSpawn has put in a ton of work on this thread too and although we have very different takes on Black/g Control/Midrange/Attrition; as I have he's experienced some good success with his builds too.
His builds make better use out of Whip and he does run the Raptor; I won't go there but I can't deny it; it does look good.
Although I won't go that direction myself; I appreciate his feedback that has helped continue development of the thread and the deck and he's contributed alot so I appreciate our different takes on things.
Th3M4g1cM4n...and with that; if you're interested in building a CoCo or Rally deck; I trust you'll have no problem finding a thread discussing those archtypes; ...they're pretty popular
I like to build obscure homebrews myself; try to come up with decks that beat meta games; even if it's just on my LGS and punish people who play the popular things and keeping their thinking inside the box.
Good luck...
No problem man; I'm glad you didn't take anything I said personally; cuz honestly that's the only way we learn.
I am honored at the fact you took my list to your Event; and I feel really bad that you didn't get Positive Results by it; I feel as though I failed you and this thread honestly.
I really do take it personally; which is why I wanted to take as much time as I could to dissect your breakdown and see where maybe I can provide enough feedback to help you improve.
So no worries man at all; hope I helped; and I hope you stick around and continue to provide feedback... Real Life comes first; so don't worry about not getting to test; getting REAL matches in is always the best substitute; practice practice practice.
Honestly; from that list I might have kept the Blights because they kill alot of their creatures; instead I might of dropped some of the Self Pain things.
Erebos I feel doesn't help much in this kind of Matchup; and easily can drop down to 3 Read the Bones.
Here's the Summary:
-1 Erebos, God of the Dead
-1 Read the Bones
-2 Thoughtseize
+2 Reclamation Sage
+2 Infinite Obliteration
Something along this line...
If you really wanted the Crypts; I would then drop a Gray Merchant and a Titan?
I like a few Thoughtseizes; so you can take a peek at critical times; and low and behold you can always Den Protector it back for extra Peeks and disruption.
The thing you gotta becareful with though is going too ALL IN on 1 way of thinking... what if they had Tutelage sideboard? Some do..
What if Ashiok was a problem?
What if it was a bigger disruption package?
My UB Control list runs ZERO creatures...
So for me; VS them; I expect to be able to Thoughtseize or Lilliana Discard these threats; or maybe side in one of the Obliterations VS them IDK.
It's not a terrible plan; but I have since cut 1 Obliteration from the side and gone to just a x1 of.
I would consider bringing it in VS a UB Dragons deck for sure; but then again I might just keep the Crux around and hit them with Discard/Disruption from Thoughtseize and Liliana and just hope to Crux a board of dragons.
It's an easy thing to overlook when you're playing Magic; dealing with alot of bad luck; and trying to analyze how... why... where you can do better.
Leave no stone unturned... who knows; maybe your shuffling routine is good; but examine it, might find a better routine that works and you like it.
Makes sense; one thing I'm starting to think though is instead of going for another Languish; perhaps it's time to put some Edict creatures in the side.
I've found when I side in Languish and put it at a 4 Languish 2 Crux split; I find that I end up wanting Crux more cuz they brought in more Tougher creatures or something.
I'm finding it hella awkward in some matchups... I'm starting to believe that either a 2/2 Split is fine; or a 3 Languish 2 Crux; and then out of the side do something like Edict Creatures or more Cheaper Spot Removal like Ultimate Prices or Murderous Cuts.
Something to consider....
Yea I hear that; my meta is also all over the place; but for the most part it's the same meta that you would normally get on a bigger stage...
The format as a whole no matter the meta big or small is quite aggressive.
So you need to make sure removal or early game is strong to deal with that; while still being able to move into a Strong Midrange game powerful enough to win.
I've actually got a bit of a redesign on the horizon; reverting it back a bit and trying again.
The thing about Homebrews is it's always changing; it's never finished; when it's finished; it's usually about that time to move on from it... LOL It's odd how that seems to happen.
With the fact you have so little time to Play Test; I would just stick with this... the worst thing is taking a very very expensive deck Tier 1; not getting any practice with it; and still losing.
I feel this deck is borderline not nearly as expensive as most; and I think it's capable of winning FNM's no matter the meta.
Just gotta keep ironing out the kinks and tweeking it to your own meta is all.
All meta's are slightly different here and there... so don't be afraid to adjust it a little bit or ask questions.
I don't mind at all.
Good luck!
Well because this thread is "CONTROL" thread; generally we're not running 1, 2 or 3 Drops to "Activate" Erebos.
In these shells Erebos is used as Utility; he does eventually activate but most importantly in the begining he's a "Opponents Can't Gain Life" enchantment; but he's also a source of Draw when you're digging for a Gray Merchant or something else.
The thing I will say though is because of how aggressive the format is; it may not be the best thing right now; I toss it IN and OUT of my lists constantly...
Personally I think we were all pretty high on Languish when it was first spoiled; and I think INITIALLY it was amazing.
What I have started to see lately though is you def want a combination of Crux + Languish; because I'm starting to see Rhino's popping back up more; Tasigurs; and other creatures that have 5 or more Toughness.
Not to mention Dragon Decks are starting to find their footing again and making adjustments to combat the Red Aggressive decks.
BUT: Languish is still solid VS Red Decks; VS Aggro Decks; VS Rally/CoCo decks.
So it's still great in MOST matchups; but I don't know that we want all 4 Languish Mainboard; I think a 3 Languish 2 Crux of Fate is a fine place to be with the spot removal and other things to clean up the rest.
First of all it's MY deck; I put in the work; the testing.
Second of all; I disagree completely that Whip "NEEDS" to be in THIS deck or the adamant opinion saying "There is no reason you shouldn't be running" it...
Fact is; there's really only 1 or 2 cards "IN THIS CURRENT LIST" that you'd want to Whip back.
What other creatures is there? You don't Whip Den Protectors; you don't whip the God.
There's 8 Targets that you "MIGHT" want to Whip back; x4 Titan and x4 Gray Merchant.
You really only want to Whip back Gray Merchant "IF" it's going to net you some great value; and I suppose in some cases you whip him back and you'll gain 4 Life from Devotion 4.
In other cases you may have a Titan on the board; Whip back Gary and gain 7.
But how often will that be the case with only 8 targets?
I feel there will be times you'll draw a Whip; and have no creature on the board; or in the yard... so then what?
With the amount of Kolaghan's Command; Ench/Art hate being run; I'm just not convinced Whip is needed in a deck with so few Whip targets.
Now; where we will agree on; in BattleSpawn's list; he runs more creatures than I have; and so I feel that Whip was definitely a better way to go in his list.
Fair point here; once the deck shifted to what it is NOW - The List that He Ran was my most recent list that I posted; the single Palace Siege was less important and could potentially be cut.
The idea was before the deck changed to bring back Merciless Executioners or Fleshbag Marauders; while also bringing back Sidisi, Undead Vizier and Hangarback Walkers.
There was much more action on either the (DRAGONS) or (KHANS) side...
With that being said; it was still very nice in the Control matchups when you stuck it; and started getting extra value out of your Den Protectors; bringing back any Gray Merchant of Asphodel that they may have Killed or Countered; etc... etc...
So Palace Siege did bring alot of value in the earlier lists; definitely it's usefulness got phased out a bit with the later lists.
Nailed it... Again; I'm assuming since you seem to be new to the thread you must not have followed things at all.
The earlier builds ran the Edict Creatures and some Exploit things; so she was much easier to activate.
But once the deck shifted; it wasn't as easy to activate; so then she became just a "Role Player".
The Roles I use her in because again; this is MY list; I designed it...
#1: VS Mono Red as a pseudo Vampire Nighthawk... You're right; shes fragile in the instance that she can easily be Lightning Striked away; or Stoke the Flames away; but if they're spending those spells to kill her; I'm fine with that exchange; it basically keeps it from hitting me. If they don't do that; shes doing to gain me some life throughout the game. And in the event I do FLIP her in that matchup; I get a 2/2 Blocking Zombie; and start to punish them for Sandbagging.
#2: VS Control; I bring in some creatures that can easily die; shes flipped much more easily; and her Up Tick is much more valuable in those matchups. You pitch Creatures so that you can get them back later via Liliana or the Palace Siege that "you're not a fan of".
So again; this is MY list; he took my list to the event...
And as far as this suggestion is concerned; I agree 100% with this suggestion.
I leave no stone unturned when I design a deck; but I completely admit this is a Stone that was left unturned.
Having gone more deeper into the Green Splash; having 3 Green Sources to cast a Hornet queen is completely doable and you're absolutely right; it is much better.
With that being said; I do like the SAC effect from the Overlord; the way I play my sideboard; I totally use that to my advantage; but either way... Hornet Queen would be better; no doubt about it.
Good call!
EDIT: Hornet Queen actually is GGG and is the same cost as Abhorrent Overlord = 7CMC. But with that said; I still think it's doable; and probably better than Overlord; although I did make great uses out of his SAC Clause. So I don't know; I'd have to test it.
LOL
With all do respect; no on the Mystic.
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon by design was included in my builds simply because this is a BLACK deck first and foremost; it started off as Mono Black Control; at one point with a Red Splash for Kolaghan's Command; and now my list has shifted to a Green Splash for Den Protectors and Art/Ench hate.
Ugin serves as a way to wipe EVERYTHING and reset....
Fact is you don't worry about Hero's Downfall when casting Ugin; he's either a Finisher; or a RESET BUTTON; so if you're casting it to Finish; then if they have "IT"; they have it... find another finish.
If you're casting it for a RESET BUTTON; let them Downfall it; you'll get it back later.
You mentioned you've been running Mono Black; I'm interested to see your list?
Thanks for your thoughts on MY list.
So a little bad luck here; but honestly I have some questions about the Sideboard plan.
Would you agree that the deck isn't necessarily about SPEED; it's more about Grinding Opponents out.
You kill their first creature; they whip it back.
So honestly I feel like the only thing needed here would be Reclamation Sages; that I kind of like Thoughtseize to stay.
I don't think Tormod's Crypt are really that needed; I feel like once you destroy the Whip; what else are they doing to bring creatures back?
Also; the Unravel the Aether may have been worth bringing in for Pharika; but yea; personally I think I would of left the Thoughtseizes and just brought in the Reclamation Sages; and maybe the extra sweeper too.
So again; sounds like a bit of bad luck in GM1.
As for the sideboard plan; I'm not sure I like 2 Infinite Obliterations coming in VS them (I believe in my current list I lowered the number in the side to x1); they run so few creatures; once you get the first one I don't see the 2nd one being that valuable.
Also; one thing I always do when I sideboard in Abhorrent Overlord; I always bring the Priest of the Blood Rite and the Liliana, Heretical Healers with it.
I like the Lily decision; I'm ok yanking the Bile Blights; I don't know that I would of cut all the Languish; I mean sure, you can't Languish the Silumgar, the Drifting Death; but they do run the Icefall Regents; it's worth keeping it around even as a 1 of siding out 2.
With that being said; I would of cut back on the Gray Merchants in this matchup; I think cutting 2 would have been fine if you're bringing in Overlord + Priest and Lilianas.
It's a war of attrition; not going to be about speed.
More bad luck man!!! 3 Rounds in a row; you're mulling and getting mana screwed.... geeesh!!!
Perhaps you need to examine your shuffling routine??? I used to have this problem a ton... No really; A TON!!!!!! And then I developed a completely new more thorough shuffling plan and I just stick to it...
I hate shuffling; it takes too much time... it's annoying; but when I stay disciplined and stick to my new plan; I've had much much more success with it.
Something to consider....
As for the sideboard plan...
PERFECT!
Generally I only do -4 Thoughtseize +4 Liliana, Heretical Healer.
But you could easily -1 Erebos, God of the Dead even too.
Or even -1 or 2 Read the Bones.
I like the Ugin, the Spirit Dragon still even though it's 8; sometimes you do easily get to 8 and being able to ping one of their creatures for 3; or X=0 and clear a board of Tokens; or start going up stairs with the damage only to Ultimate and gain 7 life.
That has come in handy more often then you might think...
I generally take out the Self Pain cards; so it would be -4 Thoughtseize -1 Erebos, God of the Dead, -1 or 2 Read the Bones and bring in whatever I'm bringing in from there depending on the style of Red or what they might be bringing to the matchup.
I've seen some go a bit bigger Post Board and do Outpost Sieges and such...
Perfect again!!! But again; when I bring in Overlord; I also bring in the Priest of the Blood Rite.
In this matchup it is generally a bit faster; but you can afford to go down to 3 Gray Merchant of Asphodel to make room for the Priest.
The reason I like Priest here also is because of the 5/5 Flying Demon; generally can out class a Stormbreath Dragon; a Thunderbreak Regent; so I like it.
And because of the Palace Siege and Den Protector; Overlord kills the Priest; and the other cards bring it back to cast it again and again.
I'd say Perfect; but again I'd bring in the Priest with Overlord.
Looks also like another round with some bad luck on your side.
Totally understand man; if I had taken a beating like that; I'd be very disheartened and discouraged too.
But I think as a Magic Player playing in Events and being a Competitive Player; you have to take your results with a grain of salt...
Sure; there are obvious times where you bomb a tournament and it's obvious that the deck idea is horrible; the deck itself is poorly designed; and the ideas are just too cute or not cut out for the format.
THEN: There are times you gotta just look at the facts... ask yourself?
How much bad luck where you having? Was it more than usual? What could I be doing to differently?
Perhaps some of the bad luck was self inflicted by keeping Bad Hands? IE: Keeping a Hand with Crux and Languish and like Gray Merchant when you're know you're up against a Red Speed Aggro deck.
Perhaps all of that bad luck stuff could be solved by just being more detailed and putting more effort into your shuffling routine?
You also gotta ask yourself; is the Mainboard somewhat meta gamed towards a certain expectation of what the field might look like? But the field ended up being slightly different than you expected?
VS a bunch of the matchups; I don't think 4 Gray Merchants were needed for example... The reason I went 4 Gray Merchant is because my meta was super aggressive; super fast; tons of BURN; and so I really wanted to improve my chances of having Turn 5 Merchant.
If the format was slower; then I could drop 1 Merchant; and go with something else...
...those little things are actually huge and could make or break a deck before it even gets started
So at the end of the day you gotta consider the fact that this is a Home Brew for the most part.... and because of that; you're basing the Home Brew off a certain expected meta game; and when you show up for the event; if that meta game shifts too much; it could throw off the entire deck.
That's why now a days you see less and less innovation and more people net decking last weeks best deck.
It's hard to analyze the direction of a meta game; and it's hard to anticipate those changes and stay a few steps ahead.....
^ THIS ^
The more the merrier...
So you're going to want some kind of way to Sacrifice it to make the Tokens.
Thing is though; Virulent Plague; or EXILE effects are going to wreck Hangarback.
I think the meta is starting to catch up to Hangarback/Thopter decks.
But IDK.
First before I post my updates; let me say that I felt my main was very very strong.
The sideboard is what I felt needed some work after the fact in hindsight.
I needed to adjust my focus and my attack plans...
1 Erebos, God of the Dead
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Erebos's Titan
3 Den Protector
spells (21)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Crux of Fate
3 Languish
4 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
4 Read the Bones
1 Palace Siege
planeswalkers (1)
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
land (25)
4 Radiant Fountain
4 Jungle Hollow
4 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Silence
3 Llanowar Wastes
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
8 Swamp
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Abhorrent Overlord
1 Priest of the Blood Rite
1 Infinite Obliteration
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Back to Nature
2 Unravel the Aether
Some notes:
#1: First; you'll notice I cut the Hangarback Walker. Let me just say that I think they were fantastic and still could be in here somewhere; the idea was thought to just move them to the side; but I feel like they are either Mainboard worthy or not at all. At any rate; I still think they are one heck of an investment. I also still think they do a wonderful job at slowing down Fast Aggro decks. I think it's a fantastic card for a "Control" deck as well. The thing is; I never considered the fact that with my latest adjustment; being on 4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel 4 Erebos's Titan 4 Bile Blight that perhaps the Red Aggro match would already be good. I saw in Patric Chapin's list Hangarbacks; I on the side was brewing Hangarback Control decks with Thopter Spy Network... So I was very very high on the card and thought it was a natural fit in Mono Black. When I was running Merciless Executioners, Fleshbag Marauder, more Palace Sieges, a few copies of Sidisi, Undead Vizier; I think Hangarback Walker would of been FANTASTIC in that style of list. WHY? Because that style of list is a bit slower. So you need that 2 Drop WITH Bile Blight that can create ugly situations for aggro matchups to slow them down. And Sidisi EXPLOITING Hangarback by that point making 3 to 5 tokens or Edict Creatures sacrificing Hangarback was fantastic... When I made the change a few days ago to cut out the Edict creatures; to cut out the Sidisi and lower Palace Siege all the way down to 1; Hangarback's role just changed significantly... Hangarback I feel shines greatly VS the Speedier Aggro matchups; but I feel like those matchups are already in my favor; so these got the axe.
#2: Den Protector as we all know is just amazing... I've found room to add the 3rd copy I have to the mainboard. The reason I'm opting for only 3 copies is because they have the same problem that a Sidisi or a Palace Siege does; they do very little the Turn they come out. You either cast it on Turn 3 for MORPH hoping it survives when you goto untap on Turn 4. Or you cast it on Turn 5 for MORPH; and in response to any removal spell or at the end of your opponents turn UNMORPH it returning something back to you hand that you need for your Turn 6. So although it's about the same speed level as Sidisi or a Palace Siege; not really seeing the fruits of labor from either card till Turn 6; I like Den Protector more because of the flexibility it gives. VS the Red Speedier decks; I plan to potentially side some out.
#3: Erebos, God of the Dead + 4 Read the Bones, this adjustment was made just to give the deck an ability to really dig dig dig. I enjoyed Erebos, God of the Dead in the earlier versions; but he got the axe when I went all in on the Titan + Gary plan. But I think Erebos is still a fantastic card; and there are some matcups where shutting off your opponents ability to gain life is relevant. And in some cases it's perfectly ok to be using your life total as a TOOL and draw with Erebos, 3, 4, 5 cards... Taking your life total all the way down if need be. Sure we don't do it VS the Red Decks; but VS the slower midrangey or control decks; it's perfectly acceptable to dig through your deck with an Erebos activation. Must in the same way that the old Black Devotion lists used to aggressively activate their Underworld Connections to find Gary or an answer. Also note that having 4 Read the Bones I think is actually really great; getting 1 is ideal; and getting a 2nd is even better. The best thing is getting 1 + Den Protector can mean that we have 2 Read the Bones if you return it. I have done this when I needed to dig for Answers; and VS Midrange/Control I have also done this when my life total didn't matter as much either because I had alot of life; or because they weren't in position to really be killing me; returning Read the Bones and playing it again is nice when trying to put together a plan to win.
#4 SIDEBOARD: 4 Liliana, Heretical Healer is a strategy... I've wrote about this alot; I love her in 2 specific kinds of strategies. Which ultimately she comes in alot... The real key thing though is whether or not I want to FLIP her early or later... VS the Speedier Aggro decks; I have little interest in flipping her early. She causes headaches for them; because they're damned if they do; damned if they don't... meaning Lightning Strike her or Stroke her. I'm perfectly happy with that exchange if they choose to do it. And if they don't; she can easily create even bigger problems for them. But VS Control Decks; or I also bring her in VS the Sphinx's Tutelage decks and my intention is to FLIP her as quickly as possible. The strategy of Liliana is in the matchups that I want to flip her; the extra creatures get brought in as well. So VS the Tutelage decks; I bring in all the creatures out of the side including Reclamation Sage; the idea is to FLIP her; and UP TICK her immediately; never stop up ticking her. So the best things to be pitching to the UP TICK are creatures. WHY? Because she; along with Palace Siege can bring them back. But it's still not the end of the world pitching any of your other spells because Den Protector can get them back as well. So the plan is to UP TICK Lily; even pitching Reclamation Sage; the moment they play a Tutelage; untap, take your turn; DOWN TICK Lilly where X=3 and destroy a Tutelage. Or in the case of CONTROL matchups; bring in the Abhorrent Overlord; the Priest of the Blood Rite; along with the 12 creatures in the mainboard; not being afraid to dump any of them... VS Control I'm not interested in trying to go all out and win on Turn 5; it's just simply not going to happen. So the sideboard is heavily influenced with Liliana in mind. These are my extra bombs that we felt the deck lacked... The reason I picked creatures is because it works with the rest of the deck. Picking planeswalkers like Ugin or Garruk works well with Den Protector; and that's it.
#5 SIDEBOARD: Updated to make room for 5 Cards that have ART/ENCH hate built in. Initially I was at 3; then bumped it to 4; and now I'm at 5. I think 5 is reasonable. And I really like the 2 Reclamation Sage if you consider the previous comments and synergy it brings to the table with Palace Siege and Liliana. If they happen to Mill a Reclamation Sage but we have a Active Lilly or Siege going; bring it back and start the destruction plan. I like this direction; but I don't want to go all in on it. I still love Unravel the Æther as a way to deal with Darksteel Citadel or another Ensoul'ed Artifact. I still like Unravel the Aether VS Hangarback Walker. I'll still use Unravel the Aether VS cards that Tutelage Decks use for DRAW; like Monastery Sieges or Dictates. Then using the Back to Nature or Reclamation Sages on the Tutelage itself. I think this package gives me good flexibility VS those decks; I've tested VS Tutelage decks alot; and I think I understand how to beat it. Granted; the UR One that is popping up is a different kind of animal; it's faster...
#6 SIDEBOARD: Tormod's Crypt; I love love the Crypt. It's great VS Rally; but I also brought it in the other day VS Tutelage. I still misplayed the match; but the theory was sound and had I played the match without mistakes; I would of definitely won game 2; and took it to 3 games. You keep a close eye on their board; keep a close eye on their grave yard. Once they play Tutelage; you either want to POP the Crypt and exile their Graveyard immediately; or if they have the Monastery Siege; then you don't have to do it immediately. Wait till their next activation; then POP the Crypt when they Discard to Monastery Siege so you get max value. This slows down the Mill plan significantly if they can't cast Treasure Cruise efficiently. Now; this plan isn't going to exactly work VS the UR Tutelage decks because of the cheap looting cards that they have in Tormenting Voice and the other ones... That one I admit is going to be a different kind of animal; but I feel like we can safely move to a beat down plan because they have no way to answer Titan or Gary. They play a few bounce spells; maybe they play Ætherspouts; but if you see they have Aetherspout mana up; don't over-extend into it. Send just a few dudes till the coast is clear. They don't have the FOGS like a Sultai Tutelage deck can play. I personally think the Fog Tutelage is worse...
I think everything else speaks for itself... the sideboard is where most of the changes came from.
I agree with all of this...
For me my 2 Unanswerable Threats; although technically they can be answered were UGIN + Palace Siege.
Being down to 1 Palace Siege means that no many people are bringing in Enchantment hate VS us; sure the GW/x decks run a few copies of Dromoka's Command mainboard; but that's just something we will deal with.
But for the most part; Palace Siege and Ugin are scoop worthy threats that after a flurry of threats; answers; trades back and fourth; trading haymakers; then dropping Ugin... or Palace Siege; only to rebuild?
Yea; I've had many scoop in those situations.
I'm half tempted to just make the Palace Siege a 2nd UGIN or something though... IDK
Or maybe even giving Garruk another look now that we have Den Protectors.
Just some kind of bomby haymaker....
I'm not quite ready to share my most recent updates; I want to do some more testing first...
But I totally agree with Battle; although I DID Top 8; I didn't have a stellar record, but everyone was on notice...
I played the 2nd Place Seed in the Top 8 round 1 and he was basically crapping himself when he lost GM1 to me and both GM2 and 3 were very very close and I played them well and just fell a bit short.
He was totally sweating...
So I agree with Battle that maybe something else needs to be in the TOP End; another UGIN; maybe a Garruk; maybe another resilient powerful 5 Drop like Priest of the Blood Rite?
I've already been re-tooling a little bit on the side and taking a closer look.
As for what works? A successful shell?
I agree with Battle...
Mainboard
3 - 4 Thoughtseize
2 - 3 Crux of Fate
2 - 4 Languish
2 - 4 Bile Blight
3 - 4 Hero's Downfall
0 - 2 Erebos, God of the Dead
3 - 4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
3 - 4 Erebos's Titan
2 - 4 Den Protector (Green Splash)
2 - 4 Read the Bones
0 - 3 Sign in Blood
0 - 2 Palace Siege
0 - 2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
24 - 25 Lands
Sideboard
3 - 5 Art/Enchantment Hate Spells