0-2 LOSS ROUND 3 VS Turbo Fog
GM1 Mana Screwed for 6 Turns; but to be fair I snap kept a 1 Swamp Hand with 3 Thoughtseize thinking I could kill his hand the first few turns; draw a few lands and be able to start getting on the aggressive side.... But nope; I kept top decking all my removal which is useless; and NO LANDS; eventually he rebuilt and it was over.
GM2 Mana Screwed for about 5 or 6 Turns; but managed to get my Unravels to keep his deck at bay; then suddenly I exploded out of the shoot; but made a fatal play mistake that cost me the game and ultimately the match.
1-2 LOSS ROUND 4 VS Abzan Midrange
GM1 Win easily.
GM2 Mana Flood; I kid you not; ended the game on about 10 or 11 lands; counted all the gas spells I drew and it was less than 4... it was pretty pitiful.
GM3 Mana Flood; same issue as GM2; had about 10 or 11 lands; hardly drew any aggression; mostly just drew all my removal.
SWISS FINISH: 2-2; but my tie breakers were insanely good somehow and I made it into TOP 8.
Round 1 of Top 8 VS Green/White/Blue Morph/Manifest Homebrew; this deck let me just tell you is an insanely good cool but complex deck.
I won game 1 easily; but games 2 and 3; just couldn't seem to pull it off... He managed to get things built up; and I didn't quite get the hate that I needed.
RECORD on the DAY: 2-3 = 8th Place
Not very good...
The first 2 rounds I won; wow the deck just flowed perfectly...
The last 2 rounds I lost; lots and lots of issues; felt like bad luck; and my opponent punished me for the stumbles...
...the deck showed me it can be powerful; but I just don't know where I go from here on this list.
I felt like I could take everyone there down... we're talking about Mono Red galore; only 2 Rally Decks, might of been a little tough; there was only 2 UR Thopter Blast decks.
After I quickly and easily dispatched my first opponent in Round 1; I walked the floor and scouted; and I just didn't see much that I should lose too...
The Turbo Fog though I felt was very legitimate VS me... I've playtested that much a ton before I added any of the Unravel the AEthers and Ench/Art hate to the side... I had a good feel for what I needed to do in the match; and just didn't play well in it... threw off the rest of the day.
But Abzan Midrange? I feel like 8 out of 10 times I win that match??? Just flooded out bad in GM2 and GM3....
VS the Top 8 List the GWU Morph/Manifest deck; Maybe I should of brought in more of my Enchantment hate; but my older versions of Mono Black annihilated that deck; and I personally don't see much in the changes that caused me to be weaker VS it.
I play almost the same deck AS you rotte.
Today gameday went 2:2 top8 Loss in the final.
Won against rdw twice, against devotion and topter.loss to devotion because of double arbor coloss and nylea.one loss against rdw because of double pulferos entchantment and in the finals against sidisi whip.
Deck felt all day strong.
When you say Almost the same deck as me; could you post your list so I can see where it's different? ...just curious
What did I change?
#1: -1 Temple of Silence; decided I'm going to keep the mana base 100% clean... 10 Green Sources for the Green Cards; 8 of the 25 CIPT; 4 Do Not Create Black or Green; 10 Swamps. I like it and feel good about it.
#2: -1 Duress (Sideboard), and added the +1 Naturalize; if I can find me a 3rd Unravel the Aether however; that's what it will be.. I wanted 4 Clean ways for a Turn 2 Destroy card for either the Ensoul or the Ornithopter/Darksteel Citadel. There's technically only 2 Unravel the Aether to deal with Citadel; but the other 2 cards also deal with Ensoul and/or Ornithipter. I feel it's a good combination of things to go along with 4 Thoughtseize. The reason I felt I could cut the Duress is because 1 Thoughtseize with Den Protector can go pretty far.
#3: -1 Liliana (Sideboard) for +1 Bile Blight. Having made the change yesterday -1 Languish -1 Blight main for 2 Crux of Fate; I absolutely felt 4 Bile Blight would be more useful than a 4th Liliana. Still love Liliana for the 2 situations I highlighted in depth; but I think 3 is enough to get the job done in those situations. I felt the 4th Bile Blight in the 75 was more important.
#4: -1 Crux of Fate (Sideboard) for +1 Languish. I feel Languish is more important than Crux right now... I do think you still want that Crux backup; but I think 2 can get the job done in the main and that a 4th Languish sitting in the side was more important.
I think people are missing the difference between UR Thopter Blast and the Thopter Decks.
There's really IMO 2 different kinds and it's important to know the difference between the 2; because both of them need to be answered and attacked very differently.
FIRST: UR Thopter Blast
+ By far the most deadly version... This is the Ensoul Artifact + Shrapnel Blast list.
+ Drown in Sorrow; Bile Blight; these cards don't really get the job done... Sure; if they have the Ornithopter animated with the Ensoul Artifact; we can respond to Ensoul attempt with Bile Blight killing the Ornithopter.
+ But the deadly piece of this deck is Animating the Darksteel Citadel; this can not be Bile Blighted; Unless of course you DOUBLE Blight it. But that's on Turn 4 at best; and at that point they have the Stubborn Denial; and/or they've already smacked you with a 5/5 2 or 3 Turns and are ready to just Shrapnel Blast you for the remaining 5 and win on Turn 4 or 5.
+ So even Crux of Fate is a poor answer VS this strategy because it's too slow... UNLESS you manage to successfully deal with the Ensoul threat; then yes; Crux can wipe the rest of their creatures... but if you fail to deal with the Ensoul Threat; pack it in...
+ Reave Soul, Ultimate Price does nothing VS this deck... Ultimate Price can only hit Mono Colored; doesn't even touch Ornithopter. Reave Soul can hit Ornithopter sure; but only if you respond to the Ensoul; after it's been Ensouled; GG... Reave Soul doesn't touch Darksteel Citadel... Sure; these 2 narrow cards can kill a bunch of their other creatures; but again... In this variation; the real threat is Ensoul Artifact.
+ Murderous Cut is even too slow VS this deck...
+ The butt kicker of this deck though is this... If you managed to cleanly deal with a Darksteel Citadel Animated with Ensoul; or the Ornithopter or any of their other artifacts animated with Ensoul... This deck is still an Aggro deck at the end of the day... Hangarbacks; other creatures; some Artifact; some Not.
+ The best thing though is if we manage to take care of the Ensoul threat; the rest of the deck just dies horribly to Languish and Crux of Fate; heck even Bile Blights are great VS all of their targets. + But if you fail to deal with the Ensoul; you're never going to get to cast any of those other spells........
+ This deck IMO is less about the Thopter menace and more so about the Ensoul Artifact and all the Artifact Synergy going on.
SECOND: Other Thopter Strategies
+ These are generally Control decks; tons of Permission; sweepers.
+ Primary path to victory is Thopter Spy Network and Hangarback Walkers.
+ This is not a Combo deck; it builds up slowly but easily gets way way way out of hand if you're not careful.
+ Bile Blights; Drown in Sorrows do have some game VS them... but I don't think it's the BEST Cleanest answer; simply because the Thopter Token is endless if you don't deal with the Thopter Spy Networks...
+ Generally IMO the best way to attack this deck is Preventing the Thopter Spy Network; because not only is it their source of Endless Thopter Tokens; but it's their Source of Mid/Late Game Consistent Draw to stockpile removal; Counters.
+ There's even a Hybrid now that uses Sphinx's Tutelage and Thopter Spy Network; beats you either with Damage or Mill and just grinds you down.
+ Still though; these variations are generally easier for us to deal with; but again they can still get out of control if you're not careful.
On the side I also run one of the Thopter decks; it's the Thopter Spy Network + Hangarback Control deck; I can assure you that these decks are very good at what they do and you'll want to plan accordingly for both styles.
The Thopter Spy Network is generally slower; but still just as efficient.
I felt I needed to explain the differences between the 2.
I call the first list Thopter BLAST adding the blast to it to differentiate from the slower Thopter builds.
It's definitely the more deadlier of the builds as it can really kill you EFFICIENTLY and CONSISTENTLY on Turn 4 or 5 if you don't have the proper answer.
Things like Drown; Bile Blight are not going to get the job done VS the Thopter Blast Deck; seeing that made me feel I needed to explain the differences so everyone can be on the lookout and understand properly how to best use the tools you have to beat them.
I was really on the fence with this idea. Because of how aggro the meta is becoming. I'll give this change a try tonight in my practice for Games Day (FNM over here is draft) and get back to you with results. My testing will really only be vs Sultai control, UR thopters and GR devo.
On a slightly related note, how would you board vs GR devo? My side and main is the same as yours (but -1 Crypt +1 Obliteration, -1 Back +1 Naturalise). I'm thinking +2 Obliteration, +1 Crux, +2 Overlord -4 Seize -1 Gary.
Also Thopters, is Lili good in this matchup? I'm looking at going +2 Unravel +1 Naturalise -1 Ugin -1 Gary -1 Seize
So if I'm going off MY list; my GR Devotion plan would look something like this.
VS Midrange (4): Dragons, Mardu, Abzan, Temur, GR Monsters
OUT ------> -4 Thoughtseize
IN <------- +2 Abhorrent Overlord
IN <------- +1 Infinite Obliteration
IN <------- +1 Languish
(*) Perspective: Big Fatty Clunky Dudes; generally opponent is tapping out Turn 4 to cast big dudes.
(*) Plan Of Attack: They have Crackling Dooms/Edicts; but Hangarback Walkers prevent them from hitting Titans with them. Game plan is as per normal; but board sweeping the Dragons with Languish and Crux for resets. Having top heavy game of Overlords to stay wide as well. Infinite Obliteration to take out Thunderbreaks since I now longer play Edicts.
...and as far as Thopters; it depends what Thopter list you're refering to?
There's the UR Thopter Blast as I like to call it; and the Thopter Spy Network lists.
Here's my potential plans for those....
VS Thopter/Tokens Control (5): Thopter Spy Network Decks + Hangarback Walkers, UB, Esper, UW
OUT ------> -3 Languish
OUT ------> -2 Crux of Fate
IN -------> +2 Abhorrent Overlord
IN -------> +1 Duress
IN -------> +1 Infinite Obliteration
IN -------> +1 Back to Nature
(*) Perspective: These decks are still Control decks with Heavy Permission Packages; potentially running Ashiok; potentially still siding in Silumgar the Drifting Death; but mostly you gotta worry about Hangarbacks and Thopter Spy Network.
(*) Plan Of Attack: Is to out 1/1 Flying Token them; with Hangarbacks and Overlord Tokens and just really gum up the board.
VS UR Thopter Blast (4):
OUT ------> -1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
OUT ------> -3 Read the Bones
IN -------> +2 Unravel the Aether
IN -------> +1 Back to Nature
IN -------> +1 Duress
(*) Perspective: Very very very fast deck! Turn 2 Ensoul is a hell of a beating!!! Generally they curve out perfectly; hit with the 5/5 for 2 or 3 Turns; then Shrapnel Blast to finish.
(*) Plan Of Attack: Must must deal with Ensoul first; if that is unsuccessful and they stick it; it's a beating for a few turns and then probably get Blasted out of the game. Once Ensoul is dealt with; still gotta worry about the rest of the deck; Crux, Languish and Blight will clean up the rest and it's back to our normal gameplan.
I agree with you. I always like having a 'reset' button, but have had a few times where I've just been looking at with 7 lands and then top the 8th land (which happens to be tapped) and die the next turn :D. that said, nothing else would have really saved me at that point.
Yea; Ugin has def saved my bacon a few times; and then at times he's just Win More; or just sits in my hand... He stays...
I forgot to mention that he thinks a Languish and a Crux should be swapped over. So 3 Languish 1 Crux mained and one of each in the side. I can see where he's coming from with this, but he's built his deck around beating Languosh and the difference between 4 and 5 mana is huge atm.
THIS ^ This suggestion now I can get behind...
I've been considering something already; part of the reason I've always gone 4 Languish and no Crux main is just simply because of the Downfalls and I used to run the Edict Dudes and more Palace Sieges.
So the idea was whatever Languish didn't kill; Downfalls and replaying Executioners/Marauders over and over again would clean up the rest.
Once I cut the Executioners/Marauders; I did feel that 4 Languish could be risky if I ever come across major Midrangy bombs that are "Languish" proof.
I've seen a few decks suddenly pop up; there was the Jund list that ran Gurmags, Tasigurs, Reaper and some other 5 toughness things...
Taking that deck the other way towards Abzan; you can still do Gurmags, Tasigurs, Rhino and I think that's more potent...
Not to mention Jim Davis just wrote an article talking about one of those kinds of lists....
So it's been something I felt COULD smack me up; but then I felt well I have the Hangarbacks; all those creatures can really be chump blocked except the Tramplers like Rhino.
So then I kind of sat back and did the crunching.... how horrible would it be?
And so I did make the change... I think you're right and it's worth making the adjustment.
The Change:
-1 Bile Blight
-1 Languish
+2 Crux of Fate -- mainboard.
Why?
Because I think Corranhorn is right; I was already considering it as it was; I've already explained it earlier in this post... so yea I think it's a fair and reasonable adjustment to make.
Why -1 Blight?
I look at it this way; I have 3 Blights; 4 Thoughtseize; 4 Hangarbacks that all can come down on Turn 2 to do something for me.
So I felt I could drop down to 3 Blights and make the 1 cut.
Why -1 Languish?
Same reason really... I have 4 Thoughtseize; 3 Blights; 4 Downfalls; 4 Hangarbacks; ALL that can be cast before Turn 4 to slow down decks.
Turn 4; I can even Drop a Titan to pull some Blocking Duties if it gets to that...
I felt this was the next logical cut to make room for the 2nd Crux main.
Sideboard:
I was running 2 Crux in the Side; now that I've mained 2; I think I can get away with keeping 1 in the Side.
I added back the 4th Liliana; WHY? Just because I like her more than anything else... It's a clean Sideboard swap; 4 Thoughtseize for 4 Liliana VS Red/X aggressive decks; and VS Control; I'm more likely to get Double Liliana to force Legend Rule and Flip 1 for an early chance at flipping her.
I don't think I really care about having anything else in the sideboard at that point...
I think everything else should prove to be fine...
To be fair; the 1 Crux maybe can be Languish even too...
And with that folks; I've made my Game Day choice... it'll def be this deck!
I've gone over the tough matchups for all my potential Game Day choices; and I think Black/g Devotion gives me better games VS Everybody than any of my other potential choices.
I think Black/g gains enough life to keep pace with fast decks; has enough removal and sweeps to keep midrange decks down; and has enough rebound, redundancy, and disruption to put up a great fight VS control decks.
To top it all off; the new HOT deck is UR Thopters with Shrapnel Blasts; I love love love the Unravel the Aether answer for that...
I'm damn near tempted to run 3 Unravels.... but I think a solo Back to Nature is going to prove fine.
I think my other potential Game Day decks are weak to UR Thopter Blast deck; but beyond that... I think the other deck/s would of been a great choice too....
The issue; I expect a bunch of those UR Thopter decks for Game Day.
So with that being said; I won't be playing Black/g Devotion for FNM... lol
I've gotta steer my meta off what I'm playing; going to play Grixis Thopters for FNM; hopefully do well enough with it to make them think I'll be playing it for Game Day and give them the okiedoke.... lol
Seems fun. What seems missing is graveyard recycling. I would strongly suggest Macabre Waltz or Kolaghan's command. I particularly like Waltz as it can bring back two creatures. The ability to reuse your creatures after they have been sacrificed is invaluable.
I considered that and did have some things planned; but after seeing how the deck is; considering there's Alesha who can bring back every one of the creatures; I felt I didn't need that.
The deck can totally aggro out; but then also go BIG with the Demons or go wide with the 1/1 Flying Thopters.
And then there's always the Burn Finish.
So I felt that it would be best to keep it all aggro, burn, and not dilute the threats with cards like Macabre Waltz.
I like the card and the idea; but I'm not sure it's really needed.
So one of the things I saw int he BR Magic Origins Intro deck; Act of Treason with Nantuko Husk... that's such a fun combo; it was great awhile ago and it feels really great now.
So I decided to build the deck around that sort of synergy...
Stealing Creatures; and either killing those stolen creatures to Husk or Collateral Damage while still going all out aggro.
Then all the creatures are able to come back to Alesha's ability!
I opted to go with Jeering Instigator as one of the primary ways to steal creatures simply because it provides the deck some much needed flexibility...
You can't pack your deck full of Sorcery Speed Act of Treason or Harness By Force effects; because then you just get hosed when you're up against Planeswalker Control decks or Control decks with very few creatures.
The way I see it; in this current format; we're dealing with things like Erebos's Titan; Rhinos; and other big nasty creatures.
What better way to steal them; hit your opponent with them; then kill them with Husk or Collateral Damage?
Just feels really fun and strong right now...
Humble Defector provides some amazing synergy!! Draws 2 Cards; if you end up with a Collateral Damage; just sacrifice the Defector before he changes sides and then deal 3 damage. If you have a Nantuko Husk out; let Husk eat the Defector before the Defector changes sides.
It's been a very fun deck; so fun that I'm going to steal it from my son 1 week and play it on Tuesday just to show him that the deck has some real potential.
I've been toyin around with the above list. I played it to a 2nd place finish at a gpt and I'm looking at playing it at the GP this weekend.
The deck I'm most concerned about is Abzan. I feel most of the other matchups are at least 50/50. I'm considering 3 hangerbacks (that's all I have) and Priest of the blood rite. what do you guys think?
Dude; list looks real good!
One thing I would recommend is Hangarback Walkers obviously; but you might just be ok.
You're running a bit more removal instead of the Hangarbacks which I guess equalizes that out...
I would say though that the nice thing about Hangarbacks is it's good in any matchup... where sometimes having all that extra spot removal may end up proving to be dead.
Just a thought...
Other than that; I'm good with the list; looks good and I wish you the best of luck at the GP!
I netdecked your list for testing tonight. Gotta say, I love it.
Most games were vs G/r devo (he's built his MB to be as anti Languish as possible), with I was 40/60 vs with game 1s, but got steadily better as the night went on. Also played 3-4 game 1s vs UR Artifacts, going 2/2 with one loss being to flood. I was talking to the G/r player afterwards (we deck swapped for 3 games, which I won all with his G/r) and he said Ugin felt off, and suggested swapping it for the 3rd Protector. Just because he found getting to that mana awkward.
Yea no I'm not going to lie; it is a bit out of place "Looking"; but it's definitely one of my favorite cards to GOTO.
Knowing I have an out VS anything really... and honestly I don't find it too terribly difficult to get to 8 mana to cast him either.
When you consider being behind a Wall of Tokens; or sitting on a nice life total; he's a nice End Game option in Grindy Matches or Matches that become Grindy.
The best thing; his -X doesn't remove the Hangarbacks or the Thopter Tokens.
So I think it actually fits; it may "Look" awkard; and at times it might be tough getting that 8th land; but I assure you; it's solid.
I was considering moving to grixis control for many of the reasons you mention, but was skeptical of the mana. You have many UU, BB and RR spells. How has the mana been working out for you?
Where you getting that I have many Double RR spells???
The Double UU is what's the most important; the BB spells aren't insanely required on Turn 4 or even Turn 5.
But with 12 Scrys and the Fetches; you do get the UU and BB pretty easily; and then all you gotta do is round out 1 Red to cast everything in the deck.
The only RR spell I have is Anger; and it's only a 1 of for obvious reasons.
So I pushed her to the side and now shes a role player basically VS 2 Matchups.
#1: Mono Red, Atarka Red, Ground Tokens like Goblins, Dragon Fodder, Hordling Outburst, etc.. etc.. WHY? Because in those matchups I'm not at all concerned about flipping her; and honestly initially; I'm not really interested in flipping her. Shes a great chump blocker that gains 2 life for me; while also most likely going to save us 3 to 4 Damage if she gets killed by Lightning Strike or Stoke the Flames. That means if they are tapping down their Goblins to cast Stoke on her; or tapping half their mana to Strike her; I'm perfectly fine with that exchange. Especially when I can just Den Protector her and get her right back... Just offers up some bits of lifegain; is a target for their burn spells; and let's also consider the fact that Turn 3 Liliana; Turn 4 Titan; into Turn 5 Gray Merchant if all of that Resolves and lives; GG Mono Red. And IF/WHEN I do finally flip her; I still get a solid Blocker in the 2/2 Zombie she leaves behind; but then I can punish the Red Decks that think they're going to sandbag 2 Stokes to try and get me down to 8 life and double Stoke me to steal the win... Not going to happen.
#2: And the 2nd matchup I love her in is VS Control. In that matchup I absolutely intend to FLIP her as fast as I possibly can... Because Thoughtseize, Duress with the synergy of Den Protectoring back Thoughtseize AND/OR Duress for more hate to nab their draw spells like Dig Through Time, Jace's Ingenuity, Dragonlord's Prerogative, Treasure Cruise; or even Den Protecotrs and force them to the grave yard. Flipping Lilly after that; cleans up the rest of the cards that are in their hand... And yes; VS Control; she is easier to Flip; because you can just toss out Den Protector; maybe bonus you get back a Thoughtseize or a Read the Bones; start hitting away; drop Lilly; start hitting away; they may kill something... If not? I'm winning? A 2nd copy of Lily causes the LEGEND RULE to trigger; so one dies; the other FLIPS. So that works too... And low and behold; if it takes me resolving the Abhorrent Overlord to finally get to a position to FLIP her; that's fine too; because with Den Protecotrs and the Palace Siege; we can get very grindy and start working on our opponent anytime we need to... I feel eventually we just get them..... It's still probably not the greatest of plans; I mean let's be honest... We're basically Mono Black; but it's no walk in the park picnic for them either.
With that said; I answered these questions a bit more indepth here; but basically said the same thing above if you had just read it...
I am really curious as to how Overloard tests. I get where you're going with it, but why not just stick with Drown or something to keep them down? Esp since it can come down earlier.
This too I just answered in my indepth analysis of my sideboard... I even made it easy to find...
The reason I opt for Overlord > than a Spell like Drown, or even Virulent Plague as it's been suggested; is because Drown is a Sorcery; 1 time cast; and sure I can Den Protector that back too; but I feel I get much more value out of popping Overlord in and out and it gives me much more reach.
If I cast Drown in Sorrow say a board full of Elspeth Tokens; my opponent laughs at me and accepts his fate... THEN: creates more tokens.
If I cast an Overlord; and make 5 to 8 1/1 Flying Harpies with 1/1 Ground Soldier tokens on the battlefield; my opponent dies a little inside.... It's very reasonable to expect that Overlord resolves in this situation because on their Turn 6 they tap out for Elspeth; and so I respond on my Turn 6 with Overlord.
EDIT: And I know what you're thinking... casting Overlord on Turn 6; ok... now I see how it might resolve; but where you getting all those tokens? Well I'm glad you asked... You see if we're up against say Abzan Control; chances are there's no creatures on the battlefield when they hit us with Elspeth. So when Elspeth Resolves; they can't Down Tick thinking they're going to kill my Erebos Titan I've already cast on them... Because he's indestructible since they control no creatures yet. So the next logical thing is to stick 1/1s in front of it and just chump block it for days... ok that works too. But then I use the Erebos's Titan; and the Overlord and instantly get 5 1/1 Flying Harpies. And sure; like I said; my opponent can then down tick; wipe my Titan and Overlord (Thanks I didn't want to SAC a creature anyways) but then have to deal with 5 1/1 Flying Harpies that will untap and potentially kill the Elspeth. VS Thopter Spy Network for example; they get to create 1 Token Per their Upkeep; I drop Overlord and instantly get 2; and probably more. Next turn; kill the Overlord to his own ability; Flip Liliana perhaps; or Den Protector Overlord back; and play him again? There's much more things going on with Overlord than the boring Drown in Sorrow; wouldn't you agree?
I admit though; other than playing Overlord in PRE-ORIGINS lists awhile back ago; having loved them then; I haven't tested him in this slot in the POST ORIGINS lists.
But; I know what Overlord is capable of; I know the matchups I absolutely want to bring it in against; and it's a very reasonable Threat and Answer to those specific strategies that I highlighted I'd like to use him for.
Need I say more?
...I will actually
Besides; WHO PLAYS OVERLORDS?? They'll never expect it; never see it coming; and because some decks are forced to play around Erebos's Titan like the above example; I expect to get good value out of Overlord.
The fun thing will be too; Untap with Overlord in play; SAC Hangarback Walker to the Overlord? Make more 1/1 Flying dudes??? OK!!!! Sign me up!
I'm going to try and address EVERYTHING since I posted my results from yesterday...
And then post my most up to date list for FNM and more than likely running it back for Game Day!!!!
I'm hella excited about the most recent changes I've made; it feels really strong finally, love where things went just bouncing random stuff off BattleSpawn; our banter back and fourth caused me to have an epiphany just looking at the list without certain aspects of it and it hit me.
So a big thanks to BattleSpawn for humoring me; I think we went back and fourth just about the entire day!!! HAHA
For the most part; I'm good with your differences; you know the deck and play the deck as well as I do so I trust your differences; bravo man!
Few notes though...
#1: Liliana, Heretical Healer; honestly; with so few ways to FLIP her in the main; I wouldn't bother with it as a 1 of. I'd say either ADD an Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, a 2nd Liliana Vess; or go with a Languish. I think over all you'd be better off with any number of those things or another Hero's Downfall or a 4th Thoughtseize or something else. Heck; even another Read the Bones? Anything... I just don't see 1 Liliana Heretical Healer really making the deck; and cutting it absolutely won't break it either.
#2: I like that you've added the 3rd Den Protector main; as I think I mentioned; by rights I should have mine main too but tossed it in the side cuz I was stubborn and didn't want to make the concession in cutting ANYTHING to find room for the 3rd main. Nice job here!
#3: I'm not a big fan of 2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier with 1 Liliana Vess; I feel for the most part they're capable of doing the same thing. So I think you want 2 of this effect; I'd go 1/1 Split maybe? Or cut Liliana and go 2 Sidisi? You know my reasons on why I cut the Sidisi from my list all together; but to be fair you were higher on Sidisi in the beginning anyways, you talked me into it; and boy was it FANTASTIC!!!! So I had zero issues with it other than my reasoning why I tried things without it for now.
#4: The "Lone" Drown in Sorrow; interesting... If it were me and since you're opting to go with a Lone Drown? I would maybe go 1 Liliana; 1 Sidisis; and 1 Dark Petition? The Dark Petition fetches up Drown and can cast it right away. IDK; might be too cute.
#5: 24 Lands seems scary to me; but you've mentioned this before; if you're having success with it; by all means. You're also not running UGIN like I am; so actually 24 might be just fine.
#6: So all in all; I would...
-1 Liliana Vess +1 Thoughtseize (4)
-1 Liliana, Heretical Healer +1 Languish (4)
...and then I'd call it a day.
No real major complaints thought; I like your tweeks and wish you luck!!!
Hangarback Walker- Best 2 drop in standard? I think so. It has great synergy with many of the things we like to do and it is a 2 drop that you won't mind seeing topdecked on turn 7 or beyond.
Couldn't agree more; I view it first and foremost as a 2 Drop; and yea totally agree it very well might be the best 2 drop in STD.
Turn 2 Hangarback
Turn 3 Leave up Bile Blight Mana while still being able to Pump Hangarback at opponents End Step.
Turn 4 Leave up Downfall Mana; while still being able to Pump Hangarback again at opponents End Step.
It fits so perfect in these lists.... and it really does slow things down for Red Players.
Sidisi, Undead Vizier- I was prepared to cut Sidisi, BUT with Hangarback, she becomes relevant again. In my opinion, exploiting Sidisi off of herself, while not terrible, is not something I want to do. Exploit a 4/4 Hangarback, leaving me with a 4/6 deathtouch, 4 flying chump blockers, AND I get to grab a card? Yes.
I will MISS Sidisi for this exactly!!!
Not going to lie; the other day when I played my last list and 3-0'ed and had an insanely easy day... there was a bunch of times I had a Hangarback Walker ticking up; and no real clean way to kill it; and sometimes I kind of wanted to kill it to go wide.......
This could be 1 good reason to run Sidisi for sure; so I like that you've gone in this direction...
Prism Ring- Seriously love this card right now. Great in any aggro match up and it makes thoughtseize or Read the Bones less painful. Plus languishing the board and gaining life for it is amazing. +4 against aggro decks
We talked in great lengths about this and I love Prism in Mono Black; back in the day of Pack Rat Black Devotion; they played something called Staff of the Death Magus; Prism is by far a better version of that card!!!
Unravel the Aether- This is a concession to the Thopter decks. Great tempo play against an Ensoul on a Darksteel Citadel. Target the citadel, they lose a land and the scissors go away.
Spot on!!!
The other thing I can't wait to do is BURY a Hangarback Walker that my opponent worked hard to stack up! LMAO
Back to Nature- This is totally a meta call, but last night there were 3 or 4 people running some form of Constellation deck. This could easily be a 3rd Unravel the Aether, but I'll leave it in my side for now based off what I'm seeing at my shop.
One of the reasons I was apprehensive to play Back to Nature was I was running more Palace Sieges at that time; and I was a little worried that playing Hangarback would somehow make Back to Nature feel awkward.
But it doesn't at all... I like having the Back to Nature option to go along with Ugin VS the Fog Decks that run a ton of Enchantments.
Seems like a good tech to have hanging around in the sideboard for those random weird matchups...
Crux of Fate- Mostly for the midrange match. Everyone has Languish on their mind and the way to beat that is to go big with the monsters. Crux will come in as extra insurance.
Yep; I'm a big fan of having 2 Crux in the Sideboard JUST IN CASE we come across some big big midrange creatures that are ANTI Languish.
I actually saw 2 today; someone was telling me I should play it for Game day... NAH
Tasigur + Gurmag + Rhino + Reaper + something else... all 5 or more toughness creatures; and they all actually play nice together with Whips and Satyr Wayfinders....
It looked like a sick deck to be honest; but it would curl up and die to control decks.
I need some help with my meta - I went 0-3 last night largely because my build can't respond to the mill deck that has erupted in this area (4 out of my last 7 games were built around Sphinx's Tutelage. I'm considering splashing in 1 or 2 colors to help me out - especially as differing colors also stops the mill (at one point my opponent was drawing 6 cards off a treasure cruise and milling 1/2 of my deck).
It looks like the mill deck could be taken advantage of. So I'm thinking of splashing either:
Green - incorporating some of my Scavenger deck to use the graveyard for big creatures and a Back to Nature or 4. I could also side in Gather the Pack or something similar to help get my creatures out and graveyard filled when playing against non-mill decks.
White - take advantage of Rally the Ancestors to return my creatures to the battlefield for a big hit and combine with Mogis and Gary. White also has some enchantment removal to help.
Red - go B/R aggro to try and secure a fast beatdown with burn, removal, and low CMC creatures.
I'm also considering moving the deck more towards an Abzan deck, but not sure if I'm good enough to be playing more than 2 colors at once. I'd love to have Dromoka's Command in my mainboard as it has such great utility in my meta.
Grateful for any feedback. The guys in my LGS gave me some good feedback and a playset of Despoiler of Souls, which almost won me my final game. Overall I think I'm improving as I lost 1-2 to each mill deck this time rather than 0-2 last week.
Yea so as you can see with the most recent talks; a bunch of us are settled on the Green Splash and packing things like Back to Nature and Unravel the AEther in the sideboard.
I've been on a green splash actually for a little bit now; Den Protectors are just tooooo stupid good...
And I just had a feeling that if Black Devotion really did become a great deck; we would eventually have to splash either Green Or White for ART/ENCH hate because of things like Orbs of Warding and other odd ball decks like Sphinx's Tutelage FOG Decks and Pyromancer's Goggles decks; and well like the new biggest craze... UR Thopters. Also; Thopter Spy Network will I'm sure become a real thing; it seems kinda on the fringe; but it's definitely strong; I've got a few decks that are built around it and they are good... real good!
So I had a feeling that White or Green was going to be coming; and when I finally got past my apprehension of running a popular card like Den Protector; Green was the obvious choice because of Den Protector.
sideboard probably needs work but this setup has been working well for me
Your main board looks pretty solid; I also like your deviations from my Black/g list.
Def shows you know what you're doing and you know the ins and outs of what you want the deck to accomplish.
Few notes about your list:
#1: I'd be real careful using Ultimate Price; there's still a good number of Multi Color creatures that are being used. Now; for this choice; I feel like this is probably a Meta Decision that you're making here; someone who goes this high on Price tells me they either are crazy or they know their meta well and this will be a great choice for them. So I'll just say becareful.
#2: 24 Lands also like BattleSpawn seems risky to me; but again you're not on an UGIN plan; so I think it should be ok.
#3: Sidisi, Undead Vizier; I'm good with it, BattleSpawn makes a strong case for it; and I wish I could find a way to do that in my list... but I'm pretty set on it right now so I'll leave Sidisi out.
#4: Obviously even you admit; your Sideboard could use some work... so I'll leave it at that.
NOTES:
My original sideboard; the one I took last night needed a complete overhaul... What I didn't take into consideration is when I cut the EDICT creatures out of the deck; and also cut Sidisi out of the deck and then dropped down to 1 Palace Siege; I didn't have the synergy that it once had before. I still have great Synergy because of the Den Protectors; and there's still a Palace Siege but I'm not relying on them as key threats like I used to so much. So with that being said; having cards in the sideboard like Priest of the Blood Rite; with the idea that I can easily send the Priest to the yard and easily get it back to replay it over and over again... that synergy is gone or less prevalent... The same is true with the choice of Archfiend of Depravity... So those got the AXE with this more focused build.
x2 Abhorrent Overloard (Sideboard) - I really like this to break up Token Decks; I feel like between Tokens or Thopter strategies; I can out Token them and create a gummed up stalemate type of board state. And when that happens; plays like Gray Merchant with an established board can and will win the game. Being able to also Sacrifice the Overlord to his Upkeep ability to prevent Damage; only to Den Protector or Palace Siege or Liliana it back to replay it again and again is great. I plan to bring this guy in VS Control as just another way to apply pressure and finish games; Liliana would come in as well so he'll easily be able to FLIP her on his own. I also plan to bring Overlord in VS Midrange Decks; again things like Dragons get chump blocked by 1/1 Tokens; you just end up out grinding them and being able to go wider then they can.
x3 Liliana, Heretical Healer (Sideboard) - I really like this VS Red Decks; they must burn it out and kill it; if they don't she gains life; is a great chump blocker; and then when she flips punishes them if they're trying to sandbag. Generally VS Red Aggressive decks; I'll be honest; I rarely want to flip her immediately; I kinda like having her hang out for a little bit to gain me 2 life and provide some chump blocking; OR: if they burn her out with a Strike or Stoke; I'm happy with that exchange too. I also will bring her in VS Control decks; but VS control the goal is to absolutely flip her as soon as possible. WHY? Well because Thoughtseize + Duress only go so far; you use those to kill their Card Advantage taking Digs, Treasure Cruises, Jace's Ingenuity, or even Den Protectors. Then get a Flipped Lilly going; and clean out the rest of their hand. It's hella effective in Grindy matchups VS Control when I have Den Protectors to get back things that I might be discarding too.
Everything else has either been beaten to the ground enough by either myself; or others... so I'll let the rest speak for itself.
I'm insanely happy now with where the deck has shifted; I wasn't super convinced early yesterday but just bouncing alot of different things around with BattleSpawn caused me to re-focus my list a bit; and when I played it yesterday and I saw it dominate 3 rounds VS good pilots and good decks; while also feeling how powerful the deck is... I feel like I potentially am onto something and feel really good about rocking this now going forward.
I really want my Playset of Serum Visions for FNM August promo; if I was still unsettled with how this deck was running; I would have gone a different direction for sure...
But i'm definitely settled; and I'm confident this could do the trick...
CHEERS to everyone whose helped; and for everyone running similar lists and working towards GAME DAY!!! I wish you the best of luck!!!!!
list is looking great Mr R! very similar to mine except i dont run any green. have you missed the edict creatures?
ill post my decklist here in a bit once i figure out how to do it right
Sorry I missed this...
Thanks first of all!!
Yea honestly; I slowly got here to where it was today... I was almost there; wracking my brain over some last little changes/tweeks.
Privately discussing the state of the deck with BattleSpawn on the side; hearing his perspective; bouncing some different ideas around; discussing Hangarbacks; even looking at cutting Gray Merchants; but then looking at cutting Sidisi and Palace Sieges... finally come to the conclusion that Gray Merchants weren't the problem; the Sidisi/Palace Sieges were... they don't do enough the Turn you drop them like Gray Merchant does.
So I came up with the above tweek and it was and felt amazing the whole night...
As for the Edict creatures; yea I cut them a few pages back and haven't missed them... I forget the person who first suggested I cut them saying they weren't needed.
I fully admit; I was stuck on keeping them because that's what was GREAT PRE-Origins.
Why? Well because MONSTER decks still ruled the meta... Abzan Midrange; GR Monsters; Mardu Dragons; Esper Dragons; Grixis Dragons; Jund Dragons; you name it; it was almost all Midrange Monster decks.
Specifically all of them mostly ran Thunderbreaks; and so Edict creatures were great!!!!
What I did not anticipate happening is that suddenly the speed of the format would shift where these RED decks would just get so quick that it would push GR Monsters out; or other bigger Monster decks aside...
I didn't anticipate a UR Ensoul Artifact deck running rampant... or how all these Token decks have become so good suddenly.
So yea; the Edict creatures I don't miss them one bit...... Sure; they are still going to have Matchups where they'll shine; and if your meta hasn't shifted as severely as everyone elses meta; and you're still seeing alot of Dragon Decks and Rhino Decks or Heroic decks; keep the Edict Creatures.
I suspect things will shift again and the Edict creatures will make a ROARING COMEBACK in a few months if not sooner.
But for now? I feel they're almost completely useless.
Thanks for the response. I might invest $70 in the deck to add the 2 Den Protector (this includes buying the mana base) and Ugin but I think I will wait until I either trade up for the Hangarback Walkers or I get them by playing drafts on FNMs. Unfortunately my near by store doesnt sell singles. What do you think is best? get 4 Hangarbacks or invest in the Den Protectors, black-green mana base and Ugin?
Hangarbacks; I think Den Protector is something that just adds depth to the deck... allows us to play a very grindy game knowing that we have Den Protectors backing us up that will allow us to get ANY of our cards back from the Yard to replay them.
Hell; at this point I think Hangarbacks are so good for this deck that I even value them over Ugin if I had to choose 1 or the other.
Because quite frankly; Ugin is just the CATCH ALL card; since running this deck; I have yet to Win a single game because of Ugin. In fact; he's just sat in my hand while I pull of all my Gray Mercahnt/Titan/Liliana shananigans with the previous versions...
Ugin is that OH SHT card I need to reset the board.... If you "NEED" him as your out; you're probably in big trouble already.
So yea; I'd go all in on Hangarbacks when you can... Den Protectors are actually pretty cheap though; I got 3 FOILS for $12 each; that's is a STEAL in my opinion.
I'm shocked these too haven't skyrocketed with how well Sultai Control has been running; not to mention these are ran in Abzan Control too.
They're hella good and I think ANY price tag these have; they're a great investment because when the Rotation comes; I see this being a format defining card going forward; it kind of already is.
So I'd get them now... SCG Has em priced at $9 each; they're totally worth it and splashing Green to add some grindy redundancy to the deck; but as of just 5 minutes ago I've also got Naturalize planned in my sideboard.
In order of importance IMO:
#1: Hangarbacks; they are the real deal!
#2: Den Protectors; just add so much depth and redundency to the deck; allows us to out grind even Control decks. It's so gratifying to play a Thoughtseize; then a Den Protector; flipping it to get back Thoughtseize; play Thoughtseize again??? OMG it's fantastic!! The first time I did it I was in love and kicked myself for having shunned the card cuz it's too popular... Sometimes it's ok to play Popular cards... I need to tell myself this more often.
#3: The Mana Base; this is really tied with #2. You really want about 8 ways to FLIP Den Protector. The nice thing is; you only need 1 Green Source. Use Black sources obviously to MORPH; leaving the 1 Green to UnMorph it... Or whatever the term is... In my list; I've added the 4 Gain Lands; these + Radiant Fountain + the Gray Merchant huge life gain chunks were fantastic today. The Green/Black Gain land is a Common and easy to get.
#4: Ugin... By rights; I could probably cut out Ugin; but I like having that Reset Button on the side; and worst case? It gets Countered or Destroyed and we Den Protector it back??? Pffft; ok! lol
8/8/2015
FINISHED: 2-2
TOP 8: 0-1
2-0 WIN ROUND 1 VS Mardu Burn
2-0 WIN ROUND 2 VS Jeskai Aggro/Burn
0-2 LOSS ROUND 3 VS Turbo Fog
GM1 Mana Screwed for 6 Turns; but to be fair I snap kept a 1 Swamp Hand with 3 Thoughtseize thinking I could kill his hand the first few turns; draw a few lands and be able to start getting on the aggressive side.... But nope; I kept top decking all my removal which is useless; and NO LANDS; eventually he rebuilt and it was over.
GM2 Mana Screwed for about 5 or 6 Turns; but managed to get my Unravels to keep his deck at bay; then suddenly I exploded out of the shoot; but made a fatal play mistake that cost me the game and ultimately the match.
1-2 LOSS ROUND 4 VS Abzan Midrange
GM1 Win easily.
GM2 Mana Flood; I kid you not; ended the game on about 10 or 11 lands; counted all the gas spells I drew and it was less than 4... it was pretty pitiful.
GM3 Mana Flood; same issue as GM2; had about 10 or 11 lands; hardly drew any aggression; mostly just drew all my removal.
SWISS FINISH: 2-2; but my tie breakers were insanely good somehow and I made it into TOP 8.
Round 1 of Top 8 VS Green/White/Blue Morph/Manifest Homebrew; this deck let me just tell you is an insanely good cool but complex deck.
I won game 1 easily; but games 2 and 3; just couldn't seem to pull it off... He managed to get things built up; and I didn't quite get the hate that I needed.
RECORD on the DAY: 2-3 = 8th Place
Not very good...
The first 2 rounds I won; wow the deck just flowed perfectly...
The last 2 rounds I lost; lots and lots of issues; felt like bad luck; and my opponent punished me for the stumbles...
...the deck showed me it can be powerful; but I just don't know where I go from here on this list.
I felt like I could take everyone there down... we're talking about Mono Red galore; only 2 Rally Decks, might of been a little tough; there was only 2 UR Thopter Blast decks.
After I quickly and easily dispatched my first opponent in Round 1; I walked the floor and scouted; and I just didn't see much that I should lose too...
The Turbo Fog though I felt was very legitimate VS me... I've playtested that much a ton before I added any of the Unravel the AEthers and Ench/Art hate to the side... I had a good feel for what I needed to do in the match; and just didn't play well in it... threw off the rest of the day.
But Abzan Midrange? I feel like 8 out of 10 times I win that match??? Just flooded out bad in GM2 and GM3....
VS the Top 8 List the GWU Morph/Manifest deck; Maybe I should of brought in more of my Enchantment hate; but my older versions of Mono Black annihilated that deck; and I personally don't see much in the changes that caused me to be weaker VS it.
...it is what it is I guess
Hope everyone else did better...
When you say Almost the same deck as me; could you post your list so I can see where it's different? ...just curious
I've made a minor tweek to my list before heading to Game Day; thought I'd share for anyone that hasn't gone to theirs yet in case it helps anyone.
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Erebos's Titan
4 Hangarback Walker
2 Den Protector
spells (19)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Crux of Fate
3 Languish
3 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Read the Bones
1 Palace Siege
planeswalkers (1)
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
land (25)
4 Radiant Fountain
4 Jungle Hollow
4 Temple of Malady
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
10 Swamp
3 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Den Protector
2 Abhorrent Overlord
1 Duress
1 Infinite Obliteration
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Languish
1 Bile Blight
2 Unravel the Æther
1 Naturalize
1 Back to Nature
What did I change?
#1: -1 Temple of Silence; decided I'm going to keep the mana base 100% clean... 10 Green Sources for the Green Cards; 8 of the 25 CIPT; 4 Do Not Create Black or Green; 10 Swamps. I like it and feel good about it.
#2: -1 Duress (Sideboard), and added the +1 Naturalize; if I can find me a 3rd Unravel the Aether however; that's what it will be.. I wanted 4 Clean ways for a Turn 2 Destroy card for either the Ensoul or the Ornithopter/Darksteel Citadel. There's technically only 2 Unravel the Aether to deal with Citadel; but the other 2 cards also deal with Ensoul and/or Ornithipter. I feel it's a good combination of things to go along with 4 Thoughtseize. The reason I felt I could cut the Duress is because 1 Thoughtseize with Den Protector can go pretty far.
#3: -1 Liliana (Sideboard) for +1 Bile Blight. Having made the change yesterday -1 Languish -1 Blight main for 2 Crux of Fate; I absolutely felt 4 Bile Blight would be more useful than a 4th Liliana. Still love Liliana for the 2 situations I highlighted in depth; but I think 3 is enough to get the job done in those situations. I felt the 4th Bile Blight in the 75 was more important.
#4: -1 Crux of Fate (Sideboard) for +1 Languish. I feel Languish is more important than Crux right now... I do think you still want that Crux backup; but I think 2 can get the job done in the main and that a 4th Languish sitting in the side was more important.
And with that folks; I'm off.
There's really IMO 2 different kinds and it's important to know the difference between the 2; because both of them need to be answered and attacked very differently.
FIRST: UR Thopter Blast
+ By far the most deadly version... This is the Ensoul Artifact + Shrapnel Blast list.
+ Drown in Sorrow; Bile Blight; these cards don't really get the job done... Sure; if they have the Ornithopter animated with the Ensoul Artifact; we can respond to Ensoul attempt with Bile Blight killing the Ornithopter.
+ But the deadly piece of this deck is Animating the Darksteel Citadel; this can not be Bile Blighted; Unless of course you DOUBLE Blight it. But that's on Turn 4 at best; and at that point they have the Stubborn Denial; and/or they've already smacked you with a 5/5 2 or 3 Turns and are ready to just Shrapnel Blast you for the remaining 5 and win on Turn 4 or 5.
+ So even Crux of Fate is a poor answer VS this strategy because it's too slow... UNLESS you manage to successfully deal with the Ensoul threat; then yes; Crux can wipe the rest of their creatures... but if you fail to deal with the Ensoul Threat; pack it in...
+ Reave Soul, Ultimate Price does nothing VS this deck... Ultimate Price can only hit Mono Colored; doesn't even touch Ornithopter. Reave Soul can hit Ornithopter sure; but only if you respond to the Ensoul; after it's been Ensouled; GG... Reave Soul doesn't touch Darksteel Citadel... Sure; these 2 narrow cards can kill a bunch of their other creatures; but again... In this variation; the real threat is Ensoul Artifact.
+ Murderous Cut is even too slow VS this deck...
+ The butt kicker of this deck though is this... If you managed to cleanly deal with a Darksteel Citadel Animated with Ensoul; or the Ornithopter or any of their other artifacts animated with Ensoul... This deck is still an Aggro deck at the end of the day... Hangarbacks; other creatures; some Artifact; some Not.
+ The best thing though is if we manage to take care of the Ensoul threat; the rest of the deck just dies horribly to Languish and Crux of Fate; heck even Bile Blights are great VS all of their targets.
+ But if you fail to deal with the Ensoul; you're never going to get to cast any of those other spells........
+ This deck IMO is less about the Thopter menace and more so about the Ensoul Artifact and all the Artifact Synergy going on.
SECOND: Other Thopter Strategies
+ These are generally Control decks; tons of Permission; sweepers.
+ Primary path to victory is Thopter Spy Network and Hangarback Walkers.
+ This is not a Combo deck; it builds up slowly but easily gets way way way out of hand if you're not careful.
+ Bile Blights; Drown in Sorrows do have some game VS them... but I don't think it's the BEST Cleanest answer; simply because the Thopter Token is endless if you don't deal with the Thopter Spy Networks...
+ Generally IMO the best way to attack this deck is Preventing the Thopter Spy Network; because not only is it their source of Endless Thopter Tokens; but it's their Source of Mid/Late Game Consistent Draw to stockpile removal; Counters.
+ There's even a Hybrid now that uses Sphinx's Tutelage and Thopter Spy Network; beats you either with Damage or Mill and just grinds you down.
+ Still though; these variations are generally easier for us to deal with; but again they can still get out of control if you're not careful.
On the side I also run one of the Thopter decks; it's the Thopter Spy Network + Hangarback Control deck; I can assure you that these decks are very good at what they do and you'll want to plan accordingly for both styles.
The Thopter Spy Network is generally slower; but still just as efficient.
I felt I needed to explain the differences between the 2.
I call the first list Thopter BLAST adding the blast to it to differentiate from the slower Thopter builds.
It's definitely the more deadlier of the builds as it can really kill you EFFICIENTLY and CONSISTENTLY on Turn 4 or 5 if you don't have the proper answer.
Things like Drown; Bile Blight are not going to get the job done VS the Thopter Blast Deck; seeing that made me feel I needed to explain the differences so everyone can be on the lookout and understand properly how to best use the tools you have to beat them.
So if I'm going off MY list; my GR Devotion plan would look something like this.
VS Midrange (4): Dragons, Mardu, Abzan, Temur, GR Monsters
OUT ------> -4 Thoughtseize
IN <------- +2 Abhorrent Overlord
IN <------- +1 Infinite Obliteration
IN <------- +1 Languish
(*) Perspective: Big Fatty Clunky Dudes; generally opponent is tapping out Turn 4 to cast big dudes.
(*) Plan Of Attack: They have Crackling Dooms/Edicts; but Hangarback Walkers prevent them from hitting Titans with them. Game plan is as per normal; but board sweeping the Dragons with Languish and Crux for resets. Having top heavy game of Overlords to stay wide as well. Infinite Obliteration to take out Thunderbreaks since I now longer play Edicts.
...and as far as Thopters; it depends what Thopter list you're refering to?
There's the UR Thopter Blast as I like to call it; and the Thopter Spy Network lists.
Here's my potential plans for those....
VS Thopter/Tokens Control (5): Thopter Spy Network Decks + Hangarback Walkers, UB, Esper, UW
OUT ------> -3 Languish
OUT ------> -2 Crux of Fate
IN -------> +2 Abhorrent Overlord
IN -------> +1 Duress
IN -------> +1 Infinite Obliteration
IN -------> +1 Back to Nature
(*) Perspective: These decks are still Control decks with Heavy Permission Packages; potentially running Ashiok; potentially still siding in Silumgar the Drifting Death; but mostly you gotta worry about Hangarbacks and Thopter Spy Network.
(*) Plan Of Attack: Is to out 1/1 Flying Token them; with Hangarbacks and Overlord Tokens and just really gum up the board.
VS UR Thopter Blast (4):
OUT ------> -1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
OUT ------> -3 Read the Bones
IN -------> +2 Unravel the Aether
IN -------> +1 Back to Nature
IN -------> +1 Duress
(*) Perspective: Very very very fast deck! Turn 2 Ensoul is a hell of a beating!!! Generally they curve out perfectly; hit with the 5/5 for 2 or 3 Turns; then Shrapnel Blast to finish.
(*) Plan Of Attack: Must must deal with Ensoul first; if that is unsuccessful and they stick it; it's a beating for a few turns and then probably get Blasted out of the game. Once Ensoul is dealt with; still gotta worry about the rest of the deck; Crux, Languish and Blight will clean up the rest and it's back to our normal gameplan.
Yea; Ugin has def saved my bacon a few times; and then at times he's just Win More; or just sits in my hand... He stays...
THIS ^ This suggestion now I can get behind...
I've been considering something already; part of the reason I've always gone 4 Languish and no Crux main is just simply because of the Downfalls and I used to run the Edict Dudes and more Palace Sieges.
So the idea was whatever Languish didn't kill; Downfalls and replaying Executioners/Marauders over and over again would clean up the rest.
Once I cut the Executioners/Marauders; I did feel that 4 Languish could be risky if I ever come across major Midrangy bombs that are "Languish" proof.
I've seen a few decks suddenly pop up; there was the Jund list that ran Gurmags, Tasigurs, Reaper and some other 5 toughness things...
Taking that deck the other way towards Abzan; you can still do Gurmags, Tasigurs, Rhino and I think that's more potent...
Not to mention Jim Davis just wrote an article talking about one of those kinds of lists....
So it's been something I felt COULD smack me up; but then I felt well I have the Hangarbacks; all those creatures can really be chump blocked except the Tramplers like Rhino.
So then I kind of sat back and did the crunching.... how horrible would it be?
And so I did make the change... I think you're right and it's worth making the adjustment.
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Erebos's Titan
4 Hangarback Walker
2 Den Protector
spells (19)
4 Thoughtseize
2 Crux of Fate
3 Languish
3 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Read the Bones
1 Palace Siege
planeswalkers (1)
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
land (25)
4 Radiant Fountain
4 Jungle Hollow
4 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Silence
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
9 Swamp
4 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Den Protector
2 Abhorrent Overlord
1 Duress
1 Infinite Obliteration
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Languish
2 Unravel the Aether
1 Back to Nature
The Change:
-1 Bile Blight
-1 Languish
+2 Crux of Fate -- mainboard.
Why?
Because I think Corranhorn is right; I was already considering it as it was; I've already explained it earlier in this post... so yea I think it's a fair and reasonable adjustment to make.
Why -1 Blight?
I look at it this way; I have 3 Blights; 4 Thoughtseize; 4 Hangarbacks that all can come down on Turn 2 to do something for me.
So I felt I could drop down to 3 Blights and make the 1 cut.
Why -1 Languish?
Same reason really... I have 4 Thoughtseize; 3 Blights; 4 Downfalls; 4 Hangarbacks; ALL that can be cast before Turn 4 to slow down decks.
Turn 4; I can even Drop a Titan to pull some Blocking Duties if it gets to that...
I felt this was the next logical cut to make room for the 2nd Crux main.
Sideboard:
I was running 2 Crux in the Side; now that I've mained 2; I think I can get away with keeping 1 in the Side.
I added back the 4th Liliana; WHY? Just because I like her more than anything else... It's a clean Sideboard swap; 4 Thoughtseize for 4 Liliana VS Red/X aggressive decks; and VS Control; I'm more likely to get Double Liliana to force Legend Rule and Flip 1 for an early chance at flipping her.
I don't think I really care about having anything else in the sideboard at that point...
I think everything else should prove to be fine...
To be fair; the 1 Crux maybe can be Languish even too...
And with that folks; I've made my Game Day choice... it'll def be this deck!
I've gone over the tough matchups for all my potential Game Day choices; and I think Black/g Devotion gives me better games VS Everybody than any of my other potential choices.
I think Black/g gains enough life to keep pace with fast decks; has enough removal and sweeps to keep midrange decks down; and has enough rebound, redundancy, and disruption to put up a great fight VS control decks.
To top it all off; the new HOT deck is UR Thopters with Shrapnel Blasts; I love love love the Unravel the Aether answer for that...
I'm damn near tempted to run 3 Unravels.... but I think a solo Back to Nature is going to prove fine.
I think my other potential Game Day decks are weak to UR Thopter Blast deck; but beyond that... I think the other deck/s would of been a great choice too....
The issue; I expect a bunch of those UR Thopter decks for Game Day.
So with that being said; I won't be playing Black/g Devotion for FNM... lol
I've gotta steer my meta off what I'm playing; going to play Grixis Thopters for FNM; hopefully do well enough with it to make them think I'll be playing it for Game Day and give them the okiedoke.... lol
It was in my maybe board; but didn't quite make the cut.
I considered that and did have some things planned; but after seeing how the deck is; considering there's Alesha who can bring back every one of the creatures; I felt I didn't need that.
The deck can totally aggro out; but then also go BIG with the Demons or go wide with the 1/1 Flying Thopters.
And then there's always the Burn Finish.
So I felt that it would be best to keep it all aggro, burn, and not dilute the threats with cards like Macabre Waltz.
I like the card and the idea; but I'm not sure it's really needed.
The other day I bought him the BR Magic Origins Intro deck and let him play in his first event...
After the event I got the deck home and began looking at it to work on upgrading it so it can be more competitive.
Here's what I came to:
4 Alesha, Who Smiles at Death
4 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Nantuko Husk
3 Priest of the Blood Rite
4 Jeering Instigator
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Humble Defector
4 Collateral Damage
2 Harness by Force
4 Lightning Strike
land (23)
4 Temple of Malice
4 Bloodfell Caves
9 Mountain
6 Swamp
4 Twin Bolt
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Merciless Executioner
4 Mogis's Marauder
So one of the things I saw int he BR Magic Origins Intro deck; Act of Treason with Nantuko Husk... that's such a fun combo; it was great awhile ago and it feels really great now.
So I decided to build the deck around that sort of synergy...
Stealing Creatures; and either killing those stolen creatures to Husk or Collateral Damage while still going all out aggro.
Things like Priest of the Blood Rite and Pia and Kiran Nalaar give the deck a bit of a midrange reach game that can go WIDE; or even end up burning them out.
Then all the creatures are able to come back to Alesha's ability!
I opted to go with Jeering Instigator as one of the primary ways to steal creatures simply because it provides the deck some much needed flexibility...
You can't pack your deck full of Sorcery Speed Act of Treason or Harness By Force effects; because then you just get hosed when you're up against Planeswalker Control decks or Control decks with very few creatures.
The way I see it; in this current format; we're dealing with things like Erebos's Titan; Rhinos; and other big nasty creatures.
What better way to steal them; hit your opponent with them; then kill them with Husk or Collateral Damage?
Just feels really fun and strong right now...
Humble Defector provides some amazing synergy!! Draws 2 Cards; if you end up with a Collateral Damage; just sacrifice the Defector before he changes sides and then deal 3 damage. If you have a Nantuko Husk out; let Husk eat the Defector before the Defector changes sides.
It's been a very fun deck; so fun that I'm going to steal it from my son 1 week and play it on Tuesday just to show him that the deck has some real potential.
Thoughts?
Dude; list looks real good!
One thing I would recommend is Hangarback Walkers obviously; but you might just be ok.
You're running a bit more removal instead of the Hangarbacks which I guess equalizes that out...
I would say though that the nice thing about Hangarbacks is it's good in any matchup... where sometimes having all that extra spot removal may end up proving to be dead.
Just a thought...
Other than that; I'm good with the list; looks good and I wish you the best of luck at the GP!
Let us know how you ended up...
Yea no I'm not going to lie; it is a bit out of place "Looking"; but it's definitely one of my favorite cards to GOTO.
Knowing I have an out VS anything really... and honestly I don't find it too terribly difficult to get to 8 mana to cast him either.
When you consider being behind a Wall of Tokens; or sitting on a nice life total; he's a nice End Game option in Grindy Matches or Matches that become Grindy.
The best thing; his -X doesn't remove the Hangarbacks or the Thopter Tokens.
So I think it actually fits; it may "Look" awkard; and at times it might be tough getting that 8th land; but I assure you; it's solid.
Where you getting that I have many Double RR spells???
The Double UU is what's the most important; the BB spells aren't insanely required on Turn 4 or even Turn 5.
But with 12 Scrys and the Fetches; you do get the UU and BB pretty easily; and then all you gotta do is round out 1 Red to cast everything in the deck.
The only RR spell I have is Anger; and it's only a 1 of for obvious reasons.
For the most part; it's really a UBr list.
And here's my most up to date list:
4 Hangarback Walker
spells (27)
3 Thopter Spy Network
2 Crux of Fate
2 Languish
4 Lightning Strike
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Dissipate
3 Clash of Wills
4 Artificer's Epiphany
3 Dig Through Time
planeswalkers (3)
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Darksteel Citadel
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Temple of Epiphany
4 Temple of Malice
2 Shivan Reef
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Mana Confluence
1 Tomb of the Spirit Dragon
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
2 Thoughtseize
2 Negate
1 Cranial Archive
1 Whip of Erebos
1 Crux of Fate
1 Burn Away
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Magma Spray
Well; my Liliana, Heretical Healers have been moved to the sideboard.
Ever since I cut the Merciless Executioners and Fleshbag Marauders and also dropping the Sidisi, Undead Vizier; the deck is no longer designed in such a way that it's easy to Flip her.
So I pushed her to the side and now shes a role player basically VS 2 Matchups.
#1: Mono Red, Atarka Red, Ground Tokens like Goblins, Dragon Fodder, Hordling Outburst, etc.. etc.. WHY? Because in those matchups I'm not at all concerned about flipping her; and honestly initially; I'm not really interested in flipping her. Shes a great chump blocker that gains 2 life for me; while also most likely going to save us 3 to 4 Damage if she gets killed by Lightning Strike or Stoke the Flames. That means if they are tapping down their Goblins to cast Stoke on her; or tapping half their mana to Strike her; I'm perfectly fine with that exchange. Especially when I can just Den Protector her and get her right back... Just offers up some bits of lifegain; is a target for their burn spells; and let's also consider the fact that Turn 3 Liliana; Turn 4 Titan; into Turn 5 Gray Merchant if all of that Resolves and lives; GG Mono Red. And IF/WHEN I do finally flip her; I still get a solid Blocker in the 2/2 Zombie she leaves behind; but then I can punish the Red Decks that think they're going to sandbag 2 Stokes to try and get me down to 8 life and double Stoke me to steal the win... Not going to happen.
#2: And the 2nd matchup I love her in is VS Control. In that matchup I absolutely intend to FLIP her as fast as I possibly can... Because Thoughtseize, Duress with the synergy of Den Protectoring back Thoughtseize AND/OR Duress for more hate to nab their draw spells like Dig Through Time, Jace's Ingenuity, Dragonlord's Prerogative, Treasure Cruise; or even Den Protecotrs and force them to the grave yard. Flipping Lilly after that; cleans up the rest of the cards that are in their hand... And yes; VS Control; she is easier to Flip; because you can just toss out Den Protector; maybe bonus you get back a Thoughtseize or a Read the Bones; start hitting away; drop Lilly; start hitting away; they may kill something... If not? I'm winning? A 2nd copy of Lily causes the LEGEND RULE to trigger; so one dies; the other FLIPS. So that works too... And low and behold; if it takes me resolving the Abhorrent Overlord to finally get to a position to FLIP her; that's fine too; because with Den Protecotrs and the Palace Siege; we can get very grindy and start working on our opponent anytime we need to... I feel eventually we just get them..... It's still probably not the greatest of plans; I mean let's be honest... We're basically Mono Black; but it's no walk in the park picnic for them either.
With that said; I answered these questions a bit more indepth here; but basically said the same thing above if you had just read it...
This too I just answered in my indepth analysis of my sideboard... I even made it easy to find...
The reason I opt for Overlord > than a Spell like Drown, or even Virulent Plague as it's been suggested; is because Drown is a Sorcery; 1 time cast; and sure I can Den Protector that back too; but I feel I get much more value out of popping Overlord in and out and it gives me much more reach.
If I cast Drown in Sorrow say a board full of Elspeth Tokens; my opponent laughs at me and accepts his fate... THEN: creates more tokens.
If I cast an Overlord; and make 5 to 8 1/1 Flying Harpies with 1/1 Ground Soldier tokens on the battlefield; my opponent dies a little inside.... It's very reasonable to expect that Overlord resolves in this situation because on their Turn 6 they tap out for Elspeth; and so I respond on my Turn 6 with Overlord.
EDIT: And I know what you're thinking... casting Overlord on Turn 6; ok... now I see how it might resolve; but where you getting all those tokens? Well I'm glad you asked... You see if we're up against say Abzan Control; chances are there's no creatures on the battlefield when they hit us with Elspeth. So when Elspeth Resolves; they can't Down Tick thinking they're going to kill my Erebos Titan I've already cast on them... Because he's indestructible since they control no creatures yet. So the next logical thing is to stick 1/1s in front of it and just chump block it for days... ok that works too. But then I use the Erebos's Titan; and the Overlord and instantly get 5 1/1 Flying Harpies. And sure; like I said; my opponent can then down tick; wipe my Titan and Overlord (Thanks I didn't want to SAC a creature anyways) but then have to deal with 5 1/1 Flying Harpies that will untap and potentially kill the Elspeth. VS Thopter Spy Network for example; they get to create 1 Token Per their Upkeep; I drop Overlord and instantly get 2; and probably more. Next turn; kill the Overlord to his own ability; Flip Liliana perhaps; or Den Protector Overlord back; and play him again? There's much more things going on with Overlord than the boring Drown in Sorrow; wouldn't you agree?
I admit though; other than playing Overlord in PRE-ORIGINS lists awhile back ago; having loved them then; I haven't tested him in this slot in the POST ORIGINS lists.
But; I know what Overlord is capable of; I know the matchups I absolutely want to bring it in against; and it's a very reasonable Threat and Answer to those specific strategies that I highlighted I'd like to use him for.
Need I say more?
...I will actually
Besides; WHO PLAYS OVERLORDS?? They'll never expect it; never see it coming; and because some decks are forced to play around Erebos's Titan like the above example; I expect to get good value out of Overlord.
The fun thing will be too; Untap with Overlord in play; SAC Hangarback Walker to the Overlord? Make more 1/1 Flying dudes??? OK!!!! Sign me up!
Ok
And then post my most up to date list for FNM and more than likely running it back for Game Day!!!!
I'm hella excited about the most recent changes I've made; it feels really strong finally, love where things went just bouncing random stuff off BattleSpawn; our banter back and fourth caused me to have an epiphany just looking at the list without certain aspects of it and it hit me.
So a big thanks to BattleSpawn for humoring me; I think we went back and fourth just about the entire day!!! HAHA
Appreciate it!
For the most part; I'm good with your differences; you know the deck and play the deck as well as I do so I trust your differences; bravo man!
Few notes though...
#1: Liliana, Heretical Healer; honestly; with so few ways to FLIP her in the main; I wouldn't bother with it as a 1 of. I'd say either ADD an Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, a 2nd Liliana Vess; or go with a Languish. I think over all you'd be better off with any number of those things or another Hero's Downfall or a 4th Thoughtseize or something else. Heck; even another Read the Bones? Anything... I just don't see 1 Liliana Heretical Healer really making the deck; and cutting it absolutely won't break it either.
#2: I like that you've added the 3rd Den Protector main; as I think I mentioned; by rights I should have mine main too but tossed it in the side cuz I was stubborn and didn't want to make the concession in cutting ANYTHING to find room for the 3rd main. Nice job here!
#3: I'm not a big fan of 2 Sidisi, Undead Vizier with 1 Liliana Vess; I feel for the most part they're capable of doing the same thing. So I think you want 2 of this effect; I'd go 1/1 Split maybe? Or cut Liliana and go 2 Sidisi? You know my reasons on why I cut the Sidisi from my list all together; but to be fair you were higher on Sidisi in the beginning anyways, you talked me into it; and boy was it FANTASTIC!!!! So I had zero issues with it other than my reasoning why I tried things without it for now.
#4: The "Lone" Drown in Sorrow; interesting... If it were me and since you're opting to go with a Lone Drown? I would maybe go 1 Liliana; 1 Sidisis; and 1 Dark Petition? The Dark Petition fetches up Drown and can cast it right away. IDK; might be too cute.
#5: 24 Lands seems scary to me; but you've mentioned this before; if you're having success with it; by all means. You're also not running UGIN like I am; so actually 24 might be just fine.
#6: So all in all; I would...
-1 Liliana Vess +1 Thoughtseize (4)
-1 Liliana, Heretical Healer +1 Languish (4)
...and then I'd call it a day.
No real major complaints thought; I like your tweeks and wish you luck!!!
Couldn't agree more; I view it first and foremost as a 2 Drop; and yea totally agree it very well might be the best 2 drop in STD.
Turn 2 Hangarback
Turn 3 Leave up Bile Blight Mana while still being able to Pump Hangarback at opponents End Step.
Turn 4 Leave up Downfall Mana; while still being able to Pump Hangarback again at opponents End Step.
It fits so perfect in these lists.... and it really does slow things down for Red Players.
#SuchValue!!!
I will MISS Sidisi for this exactly!!!
Not going to lie; the other day when I played my last list and 3-0'ed and had an insanely easy day... there was a bunch of times I had a Hangarback Walker ticking up; and no real clean way to kill it; and sometimes I kind of wanted to kill it to go wide.......
This could be 1 good reason to run Sidisi for sure; so I like that you've gone in this direction...
We talked in great lengths about this and I love Prism in Mono Black; back in the day of Pack Rat Black Devotion; they played something called Staff of the Death Magus; Prism is by far a better version of that card!!!
I just haven't found room for it...
Spot on!!!
The other thing I can't wait to do is BURY a Hangarback Walker that my opponent worked hard to stack up! LMAO
I can't freaking wait for this!!!!!!
I too went a 2/1 Split of Unravel the Aether with a Back TO Nature.
One of the reasons I was apprehensive to play Back to Nature was I was running more Palace Sieges at that time; and I was a little worried that playing Hangarback would somehow make Back to Nature feel awkward.
But it doesn't at all... I like having the Back to Nature option to go along with Ugin VS the Fog Decks that run a ton of Enchantments.
Seems like a good tech to have hanging around in the sideboard for those random weird matchups...
This will also be great VS Thopter Spy Network.
Yep; I'm a big fan of having 2 Crux in the Sideboard JUST IN CASE we come across some big big midrange creatures that are ANTI Languish.
I actually saw 2 today; someone was telling me I should play it for Game day... NAH
Tasigur + Gurmag + Rhino + Reaper + something else... all 5 or more toughness creatures; and they all actually play nice together with Whips and Satyr Wayfinders....
It looked like a sick deck to be honest; but it would curl up and die to control decks.
So I like having 2 Crux in the Side.
Yea so as you can see with the most recent talks; a bunch of us are settled on the Green Splash and packing things like Back to Nature and Unravel the AEther in the sideboard.
I've been on a green splash actually for a little bit now; Den Protectors are just tooooo stupid good...
And I just had a feeling that if Black Devotion really did become a great deck; we would eventually have to splash either Green Or White for ART/ENCH hate because of things like Orbs of Warding and other odd ball decks like Sphinx's Tutelage FOG Decks and Pyromancer's Goggles decks; and well like the new biggest craze... UR Thopters. Also; Thopter Spy Network will I'm sure become a real thing; it seems kinda on the fringe; but it's definitely strong; I've got a few decks that are built around it and they are good... real good!
So I had a feeling that White or Green was going to be coming; and when I finally got past my apprehension of running a popular card like Den Protector; Green was the obvious choice because of Den Protector.
Your main board looks pretty solid; I also like your deviations from my Black/g list.
Def shows you know what you're doing and you know the ins and outs of what you want the deck to accomplish.
Few notes about your list:
#1: I'd be real careful using Ultimate Price; there's still a good number of Multi Color creatures that are being used. Now; for this choice; I feel like this is probably a Meta Decision that you're making here; someone who goes this high on Price tells me they either are crazy or they know their meta well and this will be a great choice for them. So I'll just say becareful.
#2: 24 Lands also like BattleSpawn seems risky to me; but again you're not on an UGIN plan; so I think it should be ok.
#3: Sidisi, Undead Vizier; I'm good with it, BattleSpawn makes a strong case for it; and I wish I could find a way to do that in my list... but I'm pretty set on it right now so I'll leave Sidisi out.
#4: Obviously even you admit; your Sideboard could use some work... so I'll leave it at that.
GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!
Now; onto my most current list.
4 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
4 Erebos's Titan
4 Hangarback Walker
2 Den Protector
spells (19)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Languish
4 Bile Blight
4 Hero's Downfall
3 Read the Bones
1 Palace Siege
planeswalkers (1)
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
land (25)
4 Radiant Fountain
4 Jungle Hollow
4 Temple of Malady
1 Temple of Silence
2 Llanowar Wastes
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
9 Swamp
3 Liliana, Heretical Healer
1 Den Protector
2 Abhorrent Overlord
1 Duress
1 Infinite Obliteration
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Crux of Fate
2 Unravel the Aether
1 Back to Nature
NOTES:
My original sideboard; the one I took last night needed a complete overhaul... What I didn't take into consideration is when I cut the EDICT creatures out of the deck; and also cut Sidisi out of the deck and then dropped down to 1 Palace Siege; I didn't have the synergy that it once had before. I still have great Synergy because of the Den Protectors; and there's still a Palace Siege but I'm not relying on them as key threats like I used to so much. So with that being said; having cards in the sideboard like Priest of the Blood Rite; with the idea that I can easily send the Priest to the yard and easily get it back to replay it over and over again... that synergy is gone or less prevalent... The same is true with the choice of Archfiend of Depravity... So those got the AXE with this more focused build.
x2 Abhorrent Overloard (Sideboard) - I really like this to break up Token Decks; I feel like between Tokens or Thopter strategies; I can out Token them and create a gummed up stalemate type of board state. And when that happens; plays like Gray Merchant with an established board can and will win the game. Being able to also Sacrifice the Overlord to his Upkeep ability to prevent Damage; only to Den Protector or Palace Siege or Liliana it back to replay it again and again is great. I plan to bring this guy in VS Control as just another way to apply pressure and finish games; Liliana would come in as well so he'll easily be able to FLIP her on his own. I also plan to bring Overlord in VS Midrange Decks; again things like Dragons get chump blocked by 1/1 Tokens; you just end up out grinding them and being able to go wider then they can.
x3 Liliana, Heretical Healer (Sideboard) - I really like this VS Red Decks; they must burn it out and kill it; if they don't she gains life; is a great chump blocker; and then when she flips punishes them if they're trying to sandbag. Generally VS Red Aggressive decks; I'll be honest; I rarely want to flip her immediately; I kinda like having her hang out for a little bit to gain me 2 life and provide some chump blocking; OR: if they burn her out with a Strike or Stoke; I'm happy with that exchange too. I also will bring her in VS Control decks; but VS control the goal is to absolutely flip her as soon as possible. WHY? Well because Thoughtseize + Duress only go so far; you use those to kill their Card Advantage taking Digs, Treasure Cruises, Jace's Ingenuity, or even Den Protectors. Then get a Flipped Lilly going; and clean out the rest of their hand. It's hella effective in Grindy matchups VS Control when I have Den Protectors to get back things that I might be discarding too.
Everything else has either been beaten to the ground enough by either myself; or others... so I'll let the rest speak for itself.
I'm insanely happy now with where the deck has shifted; I wasn't super convinced early yesterday but just bouncing alot of different things around with BattleSpawn caused me to re-focus my list a bit; and when I played it yesterday and I saw it dominate 3 rounds VS good pilots and good decks; while also feeling how powerful the deck is... I feel like I potentially am onto something and feel really good about rocking this now going forward.
I really want my Playset of Serum Visions for FNM August promo; if I was still unsettled with how this deck was running; I would have gone a different direction for sure...
But i'm definitely settled; and I'm confident this could do the trick...
CHEERS to everyone whose helped; and for everyone running similar lists and working towards GAME DAY!!! I wish you the best of luck!!!!!
Sorry I missed this...
Thanks first of all!!
Yea honestly; I slowly got here to where it was today... I was almost there; wracking my brain over some last little changes/tweeks.
Privately discussing the state of the deck with BattleSpawn on the side; hearing his perspective; bouncing some different ideas around; discussing Hangarbacks; even looking at cutting Gray Merchants; but then looking at cutting Sidisi and Palace Sieges... finally come to the conclusion that Gray Merchants weren't the problem; the Sidisi/Palace Sieges were... they don't do enough the Turn you drop them like Gray Merchant does.
So I came up with the above tweek and it was and felt amazing the whole night...
As for the Edict creatures; yea I cut them a few pages back and haven't missed them... I forget the person who first suggested I cut them saying they weren't needed.
I fully admit; I was stuck on keeping them because that's what was GREAT PRE-Origins.
Why? Well because MONSTER decks still ruled the meta... Abzan Midrange; GR Monsters; Mardu Dragons; Esper Dragons; Grixis Dragons; Jund Dragons; you name it; it was almost all Midrange Monster decks.
Specifically all of them mostly ran Thunderbreaks; and so Edict creatures were great!!!!
What I did not anticipate happening is that suddenly the speed of the format would shift where these RED decks would just get so quick that it would push GR Monsters out; or other bigger Monster decks aside...
I didn't anticipate a UR Ensoul Artifact deck running rampant... or how all these Token decks have become so good suddenly.
So yea; the Edict creatures I don't miss them one bit...... Sure; they are still going to have Matchups where they'll shine; and if your meta hasn't shifted as severely as everyone elses meta; and you're still seeing alot of Dragon Decks and Rhino Decks or Heroic decks; keep the Edict Creatures.
I suspect things will shift again and the Edict creatures will make a ROARING COMEBACK in a few months if not sooner.
But for now? I feel they're almost completely useless.
Hangarbacks; I think Den Protector is something that just adds depth to the deck... allows us to play a very grindy game knowing that we have Den Protectors backing us up that will allow us to get ANY of our cards back from the Yard to replay them.
Hell; at this point I think Hangarbacks are so good for this deck that I even value them over Ugin if I had to choose 1 or the other.
Because quite frankly; Ugin is just the CATCH ALL card; since running this deck; I have yet to Win a single game because of Ugin. In fact; he's just sat in my hand while I pull of all my Gray Mercahnt/Titan/Liliana shananigans with the previous versions...
Ugin is that OH SHT card I need to reset the board.... If you "NEED" him as your out; you're probably in big trouble already.
So yea; I'd go all in on Hangarbacks when you can... Den Protectors are actually pretty cheap though; I got 3 FOILS for $12 each; that's is a STEAL in my opinion.
I'm shocked these too haven't skyrocketed with how well Sultai Control has been running; not to mention these are ran in Abzan Control too.
They're hella good and I think ANY price tag these have; they're a great investment because when the Rotation comes; I see this being a format defining card going forward; it kind of already is.
So I'd get them now... SCG Has em priced at $9 each; they're totally worth it and splashing Green to add some grindy redundancy to the deck; but as of just 5 minutes ago I've also got Naturalize planned in my sideboard.
In order of importance IMO:
#1: Hangarbacks; they are the real deal!
#2: Den Protectors; just add so much depth and redundency to the deck; allows us to out grind even Control decks. It's so gratifying to play a Thoughtseize; then a Den Protector; flipping it to get back Thoughtseize; play Thoughtseize again??? OMG it's fantastic!! The first time I did it I was in love and kicked myself for having shunned the card cuz it's too popular... Sometimes it's ok to play Popular cards... I need to tell myself this more often.
#3: The Mana Base; this is really tied with #2. You really want about 8 ways to FLIP Den Protector. The nice thing is; you only need 1 Green Source. Use Black sources obviously to MORPH; leaving the 1 Green to UnMorph it... Or whatever the term is... In my list; I've added the 4 Gain Lands; these + Radiant Fountain + the Gray Merchant huge life gain chunks were fantastic today. The Green/Black Gain land is a Common and easy to get.
#4: Ugin... By rights; I could probably cut out Ugin; but I like having that Reset Button on the side; and worst case? It gets Countered or Destroyed and we Den Protector it back??? Pffft; ok! lol