Not to beat a dead horse, but I think the thing that people are failing to expound on is what I, MYSELF, want out of a card like Vexing Devil.
I can venture to say that nearly ALL of the time I actually WANT it to be a creature, it'll be 4 damage, unless my opponent is already at 4 or less life (in which case we REALLY wish it were a 4 damage burn spell). So we can basically disregard the actual 4/3 body part of this card almost entirely. Just saying that, oh I wouldn't mind a 4/3 body for 1 isn't telling the whole tale because the times where you REALLY need it to be that 4/3 it'll almost never be a 4/3 (and when it is, it's either because your opponent is dead to the 4 damage or he/she can deal with it rather easily).
So, now lets evaluate the far that the card is a 4 damage Lava Spike that has the chance of being a 4/3 body. I believe that most of the time I would prefer this card actually BE 4 damage because I know the above scenario. The problem, however, lies in ALL the times it actually is a 4/3 body. There are just those times when you NEED that 4 point burn spell to go to the face that you'll just NEVER EVER get it. When you are staring down your opponents Wall of Denial, Wall of Omens, and random Planeswalker against your army of Jackal Pup, Chandra's Phoenix, what would you rather have? The 4 mana burn to KIA the PW or the 4/3 body that doesn't get there? I'm sure your opponent gives you the 4/3 body and laughs as his PW buries you in card advantage.
So now we've got a card that almost NEVER gives us what we want unless we are:
A.) ALREADY winning (such as in the T1 Jackal Pup, T2 Marauder example)
B.) We actually only THOUGHT we wanted that but in reality our opponent decided that's what HE wanted and not what we actually needed.
Comparing this card to the likes of Gifts Ungiven is just criminal! Gifts is not exactly a choice that you are giving your opponent. There has not been a time where I've EVER cast gifts and not gotten at LEAST 1 card I DEFINITELY wanted. 100% of the time, your opponent is forced to play by your rules and give you what they:
A.) Assume they can deal with.
B.) Assume you DON'T want.
C.) Loses them the game slower.
How does this, at all, correlate with Vexing Devil is completely beyond me.
1. Mox Diamond: Pretty sure most of us agree that fast mana is great and one that fixes is even better.
2. Koth: I'm a HUGE proponent of the Mono-Red deck and this guy is the curve topping powerhouse that ends the game in that deck.
3. Plow Under: Sets your opponent back a couple of turns and often times just ends the game.
Do any of you have the website address to that company that a lot of people used to print the S:tC cube? I'm trying to get mine printed and would like to use those guys.
I think that in general our "test" is a little flawed because it doesn't take into account the untapping and winning with the card factor. I think lots of cards that we play fail the "terminate" test but end up winning a TON of games because we got to untap with it in play. The way I evaluate these guys as "finishers" is the effect they have on the board over the course of a full turn. If the said guy is ridiculous enough to where untapping with it in play = a drastically increased win percentage than not only is the guy a finisher but the guy also warrants some testing.
I'm of the opinion (and I'll definitely be testing this once I get the opportunity) that untapping with the Consecrated Sphinx will result in winning INFINITE games. Just the fact that at that point he's a 5 for 1 GUARANTEED is sick enough as it is. In the decks I plan to play him in (U/X Control, U/X Midrange) he's probably going to be even better than most finishers.
Btw, I think that this thread has veered off topic with all the sphinx talk
In terms of price, the card itself is 2/5 the cost of a Jace, TMS. Unless of course we are saying Jace will eventually be cut because of it's "prohibitive" cost.
I agree that Karakas seems broken and I hadn't taken that into account. Not a ton of Legendary type things that deal with lands.
I think that the mechanics aren't the issue here, I think it's the general flavor of the cards. Like in the sense of Figure of Destiny, the name of that card feels pretty epic and I can definitely see the "Figure" being a legend. Same goes with Hero of Bladehold. But that does not hold true for Cloudgoat Ranger or Student of Warfare because I can definitely see there being way more than one of each of those.
I don't think the correct play is to hold him until you have counter mana. If you have other plays, ok, but waiting to draw at least 2 extra mana sources is a bunch of turns that you're giving your opponent more ability to do stuff.
I agree with you on that fact also... I didn't quite make the point I wanted to make. What I wanted to say was that I feel that if I ever get to untap with the Sphinx, I'll just win the game since at the WORST he's a 5 for 1 at that point and then I'll likely be able to protect him. Which then in turn I'll just bury my opponent in the avalanche of card advantage he'll generate. I personally am now thinking that he might end up being one of those cards that will end up being ridiculous.
I'm of the opinion that sometimes these creatures need a lil more room. I often evaluate what happens if I get to untap with said creature. If I feel that if I EVER get a single untap phase with said creature and it will turn the game completely on it's head then the creature warrants a testing. I have guys like Oona in my cube for just that reason. I think she will utterly turn a game sideways if I ever untap with her even if it's only once outta every 3 games. Now I don't count that as just attacking since I feel that any dork can attack. Also why I'm so willing to give the new Sphinx a run since I feel untapping with him in play is almost always going to result in me winning the game.
I just think that we may be a bit too strict on the "terminate/Vindicate" tests.
I am really on the fence when it comes to the Sphinx (yes I realize the thread moved from the sphinx to tezz but I'll get to him in a little bit).
On the one hand, I like the idea of playing him, protecting him and then just burying my opponents in the card advantage he generates. I feel that in the right U control deck, he might actually be a better finisher than some of the other finishers. I realize that he doesn't pass the Terminate test but I also do not plan on playing him without the ability to protect him, unless I'm in dire need of a blocker.
On the other hand, he really is super fragile and I do run a lot of instant speed removal that can deal with this guy. Fortunately most of that removal is black and I'll most likely be in that color also when I'm rocking this guy. That being said, there are still a ton of instant speed ways to deal with the guy and then he's just plain atrocious. I'll test him in Frost Titan's place.
As for "little" Tezz, I'm definitely excited to put in to use. Almost all of my cube's u/b deck feature some number of artifacts and often more than 6 which makes his +1 ability rather attractive to me. Also I can see the U/B control deck going super aggro with like 2 artifacts and just start pounding an opponent as early as like turn 4 or 5. Needless to say I'm definitely stoked and I'm sure I'll be writing the Tezz 2.0 blow out stories :).
I'm not liking this change much. The Priest gives a permanent answer to an enchantment while the Relic-Warder is really fragile and could easily be a liability.
I can get behind this but Disfigure seems to be a much needed "Shock" effect in Black. Might just be redundant. GftT is definitely a must include but I'm not sure that it should replace a fundamentally different card.
+Viridian Emissary
-Beastbreaker of Bala Ged The green agro decks don't want to be dumping mana into a leveller. VE is great on defense and still good on offensive.
I like the idea but I'm just so against poison cards being in the cube (I had the 4/4 Poison Dragon in there but he's coming out in favor of one of the new cards)
+Glissa, the Traitor
-Putrid Leech BG is a midrange/control combo in my colors. Leech never sees play except in a RGb or GWb decks, and usually wasn't good enough.
There is no way this can be right!! Putrid Leech is probably one of the best if not THE best G/B card!! I'd cut someone like Spiritmonger or whatever else before cutting Putrid Leech.
+Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
-Psychatog This hurts, but it needs to be done. There are better finishers in UB. UB agro/midrange really doesn't exist. He's only been good in reanimator, and even then only marginally.
I can definitely get behind adding Tezzert Light but I can't justify removing Psychatog. He's just so good in so many situations. He finishes often out of nowhere, completely screws up combat math, and can trade up in many a situation! Definitely can't be right cutting this guy.
I can venture to say that nearly ALL of the time I actually WANT it to be a creature, it'll be 4 damage, unless my opponent is already at 4 or less life (in which case we REALLY wish it were a 4 damage burn spell). So we can basically disregard the actual 4/3 body part of this card almost entirely. Just saying that, oh I wouldn't mind a 4/3 body for 1 isn't telling the whole tale because the times where you REALLY need it to be that 4/3 it'll almost never be a 4/3 (and when it is, it's either because your opponent is dead to the 4 damage or he/she can deal with it rather easily).
So, now lets evaluate the far that the card is a 4 damage Lava Spike that has the chance of being a 4/3 body. I believe that most of the time I would prefer this card actually BE 4 damage because I know the above scenario. The problem, however, lies in ALL the times it actually is a 4/3 body. There are just those times when you NEED that 4 point burn spell to go to the face that you'll just NEVER EVER get it. When you are staring down your opponents Wall of Denial, Wall of Omens, and random Planeswalker against your army of Jackal Pup, Chandra's Phoenix, what would you rather have? The 4 mana burn to KIA the PW or the 4/3 body that doesn't get there? I'm sure your opponent gives you the 4/3 body and laughs as his PW buries you in card advantage.
So now we've got a card that almost NEVER gives us what we want unless we are:
A.) ALREADY winning (such as in the T1 Jackal Pup, T2 Marauder example)
B.) We actually only THOUGHT we wanted that but in reality our opponent decided that's what HE wanted and not what we actually needed.
Comparing this card to the likes of Gifts Ungiven is just criminal! Gifts is not exactly a choice that you are giving your opponent. There has not been a time where I've EVER cast gifts and not gotten at LEAST 1 card I DEFINITELY wanted. 100% of the time, your opponent is forced to play by your rules and give you what they:
A.) Assume they can deal with.
B.) Assume you DON'T want.
C.) Loses them the game slower.
How does this, at all, correlate with Vexing Devil is completely beyond me.
2. Koth: I'm a HUGE proponent of the Mono-Red deck and this guy is the curve topping powerhouse that ends the game in that deck.
3. Plow Under: Sets your opponent back a couple of turns and often times just ends the game.
Thanks!
I'm of the opinion (and I'll definitely be testing this once I get the opportunity) that untapping with the Consecrated Sphinx will result in winning INFINITE games. Just the fact that at that point he's a 5 for 1 GUARANTEED is sick enough as it is. In the decks I plan to play him in (U/X Control, U/X Midrange) he's probably going to be even better than most finishers.
Btw, I think that this thread has veered off topic with all the sphinx talk
Haha now that is an "epic" spell if I ever saw one lol! Awesome.
I agree that Karakas seems broken and I hadn't taken that into account. Not a ton of Legendary type things that deal with lands.
Pretty much an auto first pick in a legendary cube IMO. This land does it all and I'm sure we'd all play it in any deck in this cube.
No doubt one of the best legendary guys EVER. Don't think we can make a legendary cube without her/him.
I agree with you on that fact also... I didn't quite make the point I wanted to make. What I wanted to say was that I feel that if I ever get to untap with the Sphinx, I'll just win the game since at the WORST he's a 5 for 1 at that point and then I'll likely be able to protect him. Which then in turn I'll just bury my opponent in the avalanche of card advantage he'll generate. I personally am now thinking that he might end up being one of those cards that will end up being ridiculous.
I just think that we may be a bit too strict on the "terminate/Vindicate" tests.
On the one hand, I like the idea of playing him, protecting him and then just burying my opponents in the card advantage he generates. I feel that in the right U control deck, he might actually be a better finisher than some of the other finishers. I realize that he doesn't pass the Terminate test but I also do not plan on playing him without the ability to protect him, unless I'm in dire need of a blocker.
On the other hand, he really is super fragile and I do run a lot of instant speed removal that can deal with this guy. Fortunately most of that removal is black and I'll most likely be in that color also when I'm rocking this guy. That being said, there are still a ton of instant speed ways to deal with the guy and then he's just plain atrocious. I'll test him in Frost Titan's place.
As for "little" Tezz, I'm definitely excited to put in to use. Almost all of my cube's u/b deck feature some number of artifacts and often more than 6 which makes his +1 ability rather attractive to me. Also I can see the U/B control deck going super aggro with like 2 artifacts and just start pounding an opponent as early as like turn 4 or 5. Needless to say I'm definitely stoked and I'm sure I'll be writing the Tezz 2.0 blow out stories :).
I'm not liking this change much. The Priest gives a permanent answer to an enchantment while the Relic-Warder is really fragile and could easily be a liability.
I can get behind this but Disfigure seems to be a much needed "Shock" effect in Black. Might just be redundant. GftT is definitely a must include but I'm not sure that it should replace a fundamentally different card.
I like the idea but I'm just so against poison cards being in the cube (I had the 4/4 Poison Dragon in there but he's coming out in favor of one of the new cards)
There is no way this can be right!! Putrid Leech is probably one of the best if not THE best G/B card!! I'd cut someone like Spiritmonger or whatever else before cutting Putrid Leech.
I can definitely get behind adding Tezzert Light but I can't justify removing Psychatog. He's just so good in so many situations. He finishes often out of nowhere, completely screws up combat math, and can trade up in many a situation! Definitely can't be right cutting this guy.