simple solutions are best found in previous designs:
Planar Web 2
Artifact
Planeswalker spells cant be played
"the best way to find peace is to isolate yourself from outside influence"
or
Planar Oclusion 2
Artifact
Planeswalker spells cost 3 more to play
"the best way to hide, is to make your hidding place impossible to find in the first place"
So the question is: If Titans and Jace won't be in M12, what is going to be the card/cycle that gets things sold?
base sets always have cards that merit the purchase of the product, even without it itll still be played and purchased initially - even without titans and JMS-
furthermore i believe that having mythics that are set so far apart from rare power level is a horrid mistake... Im glad the titans are rotating out and that JMS isnt comming back. Maybe that way well see some decent rare cards compete in a slot that only mythic rares have had in decks recently; the same reason that causes a stupid price hike in standard, since anything half decent and mythic worth $40+.
I miss the days where chase rares were $30 at most and hope they really tack on to the fact the current level of mythic rare cards should be toned down.
truth be told in real life i would take the obliterator, even if he is restrictive and probably wont use him, i dont want the possibility of someone using it against me.
furthermore the other picks are lackluster, the best being the loxodon convert, Volt charge and Death Hood Cobra all which are not 1st pick material and none which provide any idea of what kind of deck you might get, heck you might end up playing black....
Even if im not playing with money involved and basically rare draft him, oblit is still on top due to hate drafting other possible strats.
this card isn't broken, its good, in no way is it a card that winds games by itself, isn't good enough to have a deck built around it and doesn't nonparallel card advantage...
For broken cards look into Umezawa's Jitte, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Skullclamp, Sensei's Divining Top, Arc Bound Ravager, Aether Vial, Bitter Blossom, Bloodbraid Elf, etc.
All card which are far more broken than the Obliterator.
Again many people have mentioned how black has many things going for it and the deck can be good. But truth is the biggest and only thing that holds black decks back is the non existent card for CARD ADVANTAGE
IoK and Duress are good cards BUT DONT PROVIDE CARD ADVANTAGE, only a 1 for 1 deal. Mind sludge is good BUT COSTS 5 MANA. Sadistic Sacrament sucks, always has, and always will, never will be card advantage, youre a noob if you believe it is even main deck worthy.
The only card that provides some sort of card advantage for black is sign in blood which at best is a black divination....
If were lucky well see this card get played, out of current cards there is a possible mono black deck build available but its tier 2 at best and will stay that way. And in the end its the power of black's OTHER cards that make the deck not the Obliterator...
Ryan doesn't know what tempo is, that much is clear.
true the only conceivably way this generates tempo advantage is through the fact hes a 5/5 for 4, which usually is larger than any threat your oponent has played in similar points
No Phyrexian Obliterator IS NOT broken, its a great card but hardly off the charts.
see the reason for this is the heft cost which heavily restricts him for use in Mono black decks. If not used that way and someone attempts to put him in another deck than cant guarantee 4 black on turn 4 you remove on of the biggest selling points: the fact hes a 5/5 body for 4 mana.
Furthermore while his ability seems strong its really no worse than having it read "phyrexian obliterator is unblockable". While true having a 5/5 threat and taking per turn is in no way recommended, its far more reasonable than taking damage AND sacrificing permanents. In magic card advantage is king, and the obliterator will not produce inmmediate card advantage unless your oponent is dumb enough.
he has no further defenses, and does nothing else other than being a beatstick and unless you have some surefire way of accelerating into him fast (read: mono black deck that played sphere of the suns to get this into play turn 3) there really isnt much to talk about int he obliterator.
As for the comparisons people have offered, its been on target that Obliterator is in no way better than a baneslayer angel, abyssal persecutor, titans, wurm coil seige engine, etc. Which should go ahead and show you how it is a GREAT card since none of the above mentioned cards are bad, but it also goes to show you that it isnt broken since its not better than any of the above either.
In the end the olbiterator provides for a decent 4 mana slot drop on midrange black decks, something they trully didnt have since IMO abyssal is better left for other decks and there was no other 4 drop. Will it warp anything? heck no mono black as ive said in so many different threads lack cheap playable card advantage cards like phyrexian arena or dark confidant which would make it playable.
To the guys talking about CA, one thing you could do is splash a tad bit of Blue. Couple of DS Shores and 4x Drowned Catacombs + 4x Preordain would be decent enough in addition to a few Sign In Bloods I think.
I mean sure, it strays from being MB, but ALL your mana-sources would still produce black mana.
but theres no purpose to doing this, current decks that splash black rather than make it a primary color have it right since they get the best out of black (disfigure, inquisition, duress, go for the throat, black sun zenith, etc) while running their incredible blue suite.
as many (including I) have said what Mono Black lacks is the true card advantage engine to gear up its game and not have to depend on (mostly blue) to seal the deal.
@above: sign in blood isnt a bad much less horrible card but your whole strategy can not depend on a single card draw spell much less one that is on par with divination...
NPH needs to introduce several card advantage spells for MBC to make it even a noteworthy competitor against the current gauntlet of tier 1.5 or higher Standard decks. The deck does not lack tools to be a deck right now, but the deck that it is at the moment is not competitive and nothing in NPH seems to alter this at 24 cards in.
This is absolutely true, black is not lacking in any other area BUT card advantage, it has nothing to compete with the other decks form of card advantage be it Squadron Hawks in Caw Blade, Jace in various decks, Primeval Titan in Valakut or Ramp; nor is it strong enough to compete agressively vs decks like Kuldotha.
if I see a card advantage engine such as a phyrexian arena return then MAYBE mono black will have the means necessary to compete.
again I have to say Kijin is right, to expand on my earlier post and to respond to some comments in the thread:
A hexmage is just as intimidating as a 9/8 first striker (and srsly if you have 7 swamps out you shoudlve won) as it is as a 4/3 first strike, pro green, pro black creature that untaps all lands and discards a card when it hits....
Same applies to basically any creature you can fathom in Mono black variants
Screamwhip is a good card, its in no way bad, sadly it has stiff competition and in no way is the card mono black needs to rise again. Maybe itll see play IF vampires somehow come back in innistriad and a decent mono black deck can be remade.
Screamwhip is good but its barely the card that people are hyping it up to be.
Even in MBC where i could potentially make a creature huge i still wouldnt choose Screamwhip over Sword of Feast and Famine, and probably would debate it vs Sword of Mind and Body. This will probably still hold true with Sword of War and Peace. A Nighthawk or Bloodghast or any of the other creatures that have been mentioned in this thread are just as imposing with a sword (sometimes more imposing) as they are with a decent bonus from a Screamwhip.
Truth is that the only usable equipment this can be compared to is Bonehoard which has gotten OK use, has almost identical costs (4 to play 2 to equip), living weapon status and similar effects (growth over time) with Bonehoard obviously being more universal (can be played in a variety of decks) while Screamwhip is more restricted (mono black or mainly black decks) but slightly stronger effect (easier to have lands than graves filled with creatures) and better equip costs.
Kijin said it right screamwhip isnt the right card it needs, another finisher for color that is filled with potentially strong finishers ( Nantuko Shade, Grave Titan, Phyrexian Obliterator, Phylactery Lich, Ob Nixilis, etc) or slight utility when it already has a strong utility suite (Nighthawk, Gatekeeper, Liliana Vess, Sword of X and Y, etc)
When I see a card advantage card that can rival Squadron Hawks+Stone Forger Mystic, or Jace Minsculptor in for black decks i think the deck will be ready (here is hoping for Phyrexian Arena). Right now one cant live off Sign in Blood....
As it stands Screamwhip will just be Nightmare Lash 2: Electric Boogaloo, a strong card for a non existent deck and that does nothing to solve the reasons why the deck isn't competitive.
no I dont see how the would make ancient tombs that add colored mana or lands with mana costs (although interresting)
at best if wanting to use the phyrexian mana on lands id fathom something similar to shock lands but with a phyrexian mana cost as they come into play...even then I doubt well see a new set of duals aside from the great set we got in scars
as artifacts MAYBE and even then the best I would dare even say theyd do is a "diamond cycle" with phyrexian mana:
Phyrexian Saphire 1(P/U)
comes into play tapped
tap: add
I would also like to see this art since I see nothing of the sort of bolas....
also i would like to note that the art shown of a phyrexian with what seems mirrodin and its 5 suns around it is not Jin Gitaxias as he doesnt fit his image:
From the article its more likely Kraynox's Orrery, which would coincide with a model of "nine half-spheres nested within each other whirl about on a central axis, each pierced by holes marking the paths of various lacunae. Around this structure spin the five suns of New Phyrexia"
I just don't see how people don't think this'll see play. Extirpate is still a solid SB card, maindeck in rare instances- this will be too.
.
I dont think anyone has said this card wont see play, you never know if it will. Its a useful tool and certainly will see play if a deck that requires it rolls into popularity.
In standard *currently* that doesnt exist which hurts is playability (but hey that means it might be really really cheap to buy), eternal formats is where this will see play on some decks.
I def. see a possible 1(P/U)(P/U) counterspell as a rare card, while strong it most certainly comes at a cost since 1 mana and 4 life and a card is hardly a small cost for countering a spell even in decks that usually dont run counterspells. And if payed with no life its a cancel simple as that.
(P/U)(P/U)(P/U) seems too good since its essentially free and colorless.
if anything it would cost 1(P/U)(P/U)(P/U) but it certainly wouldnt be a good card if it only counteres a spell, possibly if it had "draw a card" or something similar attached to it then great.
2(P/U)(P/U) is also a possibility but hardly groundbreaking and seems like such a waste since the card would be unusable save for decks that really really want to have a colorless counterspell
can be activated instantly but by the time they do you've already spilled the beans as to your strategy.
You see the strategy involving Cards like tormod's and Relic is much different from cards like extirpate. They are all Grave Hosers, but do so in much different manners:
Tormod's Crypt and the Relic are "RATTLESNAKE" which clearly send signal to your opponent that you can and will remove their graveyard if you want. Basically if they have issues with this theyll have to compromise their strategy to play around your card, your point is to gain advantage while your opponent tries to find a way around your card.
Extirpate and this card are "SPIDER" cards, which are basically are cards that trap your opponent. You want him to play his cards confidently so when he does you unveil your card and trap him into your strategy.
Both strategies have their inherent advantages and dissadvantages, to some decks (more controling types) you much rather have a rattlesnake type card to keep your opponent at bay while you build up and fully take control (for example if much rather have a relic or crypt on a Death and Taxes or Stax deck in legacy than Surgical Extraction) while more agressive strategies will like the spider type cards more.
Planar Web 2
Artifact
Planeswalker spells cant be played
"the best way to find peace is to isolate yourself from outside influence"
or
Planar Oclusion 2
Artifact
Planeswalker spells cost 3 more to play
"the best way to hide, is to make your hidding place impossible to find in the first place"
base sets always have cards that merit the purchase of the product, even without it itll still be played and purchased initially - even without titans and JMS-
furthermore i believe that having mythics that are set so far apart from rare power level is a horrid mistake... Im glad the titans are rotating out and that JMS isnt comming back. Maybe that way well see some decent rare cards compete in a slot that only mythic rares have had in decks recently; the same reason that causes a stupid price hike in standard, since anything half decent and mythic worth $40+.
I miss the days where chase rares were $30 at most and hope they really tack on to the fact the current level of mythic rare cards should be toned down.
furthermore the other picks are lackluster, the best being the loxodon convert, Volt charge and Death Hood Cobra all which are not 1st pick material and none which provide any idea of what kind of deck you might get, heck you might end up playing black....
Even if im not playing with money involved and basically rare draft him, oblit is still on top due to hate drafting other possible strats.
this card isn't broken, its good, in no way is it a card that winds games by itself, isn't good enough to have a deck built around it and doesn't nonparallel card advantage...
For broken cards look into Umezawa's Jitte, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Skullclamp, Sensei's Divining Top, Arc Bound Ravager, Aether Vial, Bitter Blossom, Bloodbraid Elf, etc.
All card which are far more broken than the Obliterator.
Again many people have mentioned how black has many things going for it and the deck can be good. But truth is the biggest and only thing that holds black decks back is the non existent card for CARD ADVANTAGE
IoK and Duress are good cards BUT DONT PROVIDE CARD ADVANTAGE, only a 1 for 1 deal. Mind sludge is good BUT COSTS 5 MANA. Sadistic Sacrament sucks, always has, and always will, never will be card advantage, youre a noob if you believe it is even main deck worthy.
The only card that provides some sort of card advantage for black is sign in blood which at best is a black divination....
If were lucky well see this card get played, out of current cards there is a possible mono black deck build available but its tier 2 at best and will stay that way. And in the end its the power of black's OTHER cards that make the deck not the Obliterator...
true the only conceivably way this generates tempo advantage is through the fact hes a 5/5 for 4, which usually is larger than any threat your oponent has played in similar points
see the reason for this is the heft cost which heavily restricts him for use in Mono black decks. If not used that way and someone attempts to put him in another deck than cant guarantee 4 black on turn 4 you remove on of the biggest selling points: the fact hes a 5/5 body for 4 mana.
Furthermore while his ability seems strong its really no worse than having it read "phyrexian obliterator is unblockable". While true having a 5/5 threat and taking per turn is in no way recommended, its far more reasonable than taking damage AND sacrificing permanents. In magic card advantage is king, and the obliterator will not produce inmmediate card advantage unless your oponent is dumb enough.
he has no further defenses, and does nothing else other than being a beatstick and unless you have some surefire way of accelerating into him fast (read: mono black deck that played sphere of the suns to get this into play turn 3) there really isnt much to talk about int he obliterator.
As for the comparisons people have offered, its been on target that Obliterator is in no way better than a baneslayer angel, abyssal persecutor, titans, wurm coil seige engine, etc. Which should go ahead and show you how it is a GREAT card since none of the above mentioned cards are bad, but it also goes to show you that it isnt broken since its not better than any of the above either.
In the end the olbiterator provides for a decent 4 mana slot drop on midrange black decks, something they trully didnt have since IMO abyssal is better left for other decks and there was no other 4 drop. Will it warp anything? heck no mono black as ive said in so many different threads lack cheap playable card advantage cards like phyrexian arena or dark confidant which would make it playable.
but theres no purpose to doing this, current decks that splash black rather than make it a primary color have it right since they get the best out of black (disfigure, inquisition, duress, go for the throat, black sun zenith, etc) while running their incredible blue suite.
as many (including I) have said what Mono Black lacks is the true card advantage engine to gear up its game and not have to depend on (mostly blue) to seal the deal.
@above: sign in blood isnt a bad much less horrible card but your whole strategy can not depend on a single card draw spell much less one that is on par with divination...
This is absolutely true, black is not lacking in any other area BUT card advantage, it has nothing to compete with the other decks form of card advantage be it Squadron Hawks in Caw Blade, Jace in various decks, Primeval Titan in Valakut or Ramp; nor is it strong enough to compete agressively vs decks like Kuldotha.
if I see a card advantage engine such as a phyrexian arena return then MAYBE mono black will have the means necessary to compete.
A hexmage is just as intimidating as a 9/8 first striker (and srsly if you have 7 swamps out you shoudlve won) as it is as a 4/3 first strike, pro green, pro black creature that untaps all lands and discards a card when it hits....
Same applies to basically any creature you can fathom in Mono black variants
Screamwhip is a good card, its in no way bad, sadly it has stiff competition and in no way is the card mono black needs to rise again. Maybe itll see play IF vampires somehow come back in innistriad and a decent mono black deck can be remade.
Even in MBC where i could potentially make a creature huge i still wouldnt choose Screamwhip over Sword of Feast and Famine, and probably would debate it vs Sword of Mind and Body. This will probably still hold true with Sword of War and Peace. A Nighthawk or Bloodghast or any of the other creatures that have been mentioned in this thread are just as imposing with a sword (sometimes more imposing) as they are with a decent bonus from a Screamwhip.
Truth is that the only usable equipment this can be compared to is Bonehoard which has gotten OK use, has almost identical costs (4 to play 2 to equip), living weapon status and similar effects (growth over time) with Bonehoard obviously being more universal (can be played in a variety of decks) while Screamwhip is more restricted (mono black or mainly black decks) but slightly stronger effect (easier to have lands than graves filled with creatures) and better equip costs.
Kijin said it right screamwhip isnt the right card it needs, another finisher for color that is filled with potentially strong finishers ( Nantuko Shade, Grave Titan, Phyrexian Obliterator, Phylactery Lich, Ob Nixilis, etc) or slight utility when it already has a strong utility suite (Nighthawk, Gatekeeper, Liliana Vess, Sword of X and Y, etc)
When I see a card advantage card that can rival Squadron Hawks+Stone Forger Mystic, or Jace Minsculptor in for black decks i think the deck will be ready (here is hoping for Phyrexian Arena). Right now one cant live off Sign in Blood....
As it stands Screamwhip will just be Nightmare Lash 2: Electric Boogaloo, a strong card for a non existent deck and that does nothing to solve the reasons why the deck isn't competitive.
at best if wanting to use the phyrexian mana on lands id fathom something similar to shock lands but with a phyrexian mana cost as they come into play...even then I doubt well see a new set of duals aside from the great set we got in scars
as artifacts MAYBE and even then the best I would dare even say theyd do is a "diamond cycle" with phyrexian mana:
Phyrexian Saphire 1(P/U)
comes into play tapped
tap: add
also i would like to note that the art shown of a phyrexian with what seems mirrodin and its 5 suns around it is not Jin Gitaxias as he doesnt fit his image:
From the article its more likely Kraynox's Orrery, which would coincide with a model of "nine half-spheres nested within each other whirl about on a central axis, each pierced by holes marking the paths of various lacunae. Around this structure spin the five suns of New Phyrexia"
I dont think anyone has said this card wont see play, you never know if it will. Its a useful tool and certainly will see play if a deck that requires it rolls into popularity.
In standard *currently* that doesnt exist which hurts is playability (but hey that means it might be really really cheap to buy), eternal formats is where this will see play on some decks.
(P/U)(P/U)(P/U) seems too good since its essentially free and colorless.
if anything it would cost 1(P/U)(P/U)(P/U) but it certainly wouldnt be a good card if it only counteres a spell, possibly if it had "draw a card" or something similar attached to it then great.
2(P/U)(P/U) is also a possibility but hardly groundbreaking and seems like such a waste since the card would be unusable save for decks that really really want to have a colorless counterspell
You see the strategy involving Cards like tormod's and Relic is much different from cards like extirpate. They are all Grave Hosers, but do so in much different manners:
Tormod's Crypt and the Relic are "RATTLESNAKE" which clearly send signal to your opponent that you can and will remove their graveyard if you want. Basically if they have issues with this theyll have to compromise their strategy to play around your card, your point is to gain advantage while your opponent tries to find a way around your card.
Extirpate and this card are "SPIDER" cards, which are basically are cards that trap your opponent. You want him to play his cards confidently so when he does you unveil your card and trap him into your strategy.
Both strategies have their inherent advantages and dissadvantages, to some decks (more controling types) you much rather have a rattlesnake type card to keep your opponent at bay while you build up and fully take control (for example if much rather have a relic or crypt on a Death and Taxes or Stax deck in legacy than Surgical Extraction) while more agressive strategies will like the spider type cards more.