How is the mana cost of the threats a deck plays more important than the play style of a deck when defining its archetype?
Midrange doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists as a middle ground on a spectrum between aggro and control that has a distinct play style which set it apart from other archetypes that exist in the same space such as aggro-control. If there isn't something for midrange to be bigger than then it isn't midrange.
Aggro is different from format to format, and in EDH especially it has had to change, but I think it always exists because it is one of the three corner stones that define archetypes in magic.
I would definitely argue that your Xenagos deck is an aggro deck in EDH. You even write:
Quote from Donald »
This version of the deck is designed to kill opponents in one hit as quickly as possible.
right before you list the deck. That seems much more in line with aggro's definition than midrange's. Either way though, it looks like a fun deck to pilot
I think you've drawn attention to the wrong part of the definition for mid range. The way a mid range deck plays in relation to other decks is where I think you can start to categorize a deck as aggro or mid range in a particular meta.
A midrange deck will often seek to play a reactive, attrition-based game against aggro decks and a more proactive, tempo-based game against control decks.
This would be what I consider the important part of that definition. If a deck is always playing a proactive, tempo-based game because there aren't (m)any decks for it to go bigger than then that deck is probably an aggro deck.
I've been playing around with the idea of converting my Savra deck over to Meren since I saw her spoiled. I've tested her with a couple tweaks to the deck and really like her at the helm of my dredge/reanimator list.
One card that I found very good that hasn't been mentioned yet is Apprentice Necromancer. This card does so much work with Meren. Hes a fast way to accumulate experience counters, he gives you access to your bigger etb creatures early if you have them in your yard, and he can get their effects at instant speed every turn. Hes worth trying out if you have a reliable way of milling yourself.
Keep in mind Priest will count the elves my opponents control too. Meaning any manadork they play ramps us. On the other hand, Bloom Tender is capped at 2 mana unless we reanimate something off-color.
Quote from atr0s »
@Sweetwater D - Bloom Tender is interesting, but I think I prefer Priest of Titania. I don't always have a lot of permanents on the board, so the most reliable way of having it produce 2 mana will be casting Jarad. With Priest, Jarad is also my most consistent acess to 2 mana, but it has the potential to go a lot higher. I do like that Bloom Tender can make black mana though. I'm just not sure if it can fit in the list while keeping Priest.
Fair points, there might not be as much parity between them as I first thought. The main draw is of course that it produces black mana, which probably isn't as important as in previous builds without NO.
Speaking of Priest of Titania have you guys playing the NO builds of the deck considered Bloom Tender in that spot? I count 5 elves in atr0s' deck and 4 in Razz's so aside from Jarad, priest doesn't have a whole lot of friends to make it past 2 mana very often.
I've thought about the card before but never actually played it. Have you played it with success in your list? Do you have a list I can compare to (even if your commander is Savra)?
Sorry I'm late getting back to you. I have run it with decent success in my list. It's definitely one of the weaker reanimation effect I've tested but being searchable with SotF has been pretty useful so far.
I'm not sure if it will be too helpful for you since our deck's goals are pretty different but who knows? I've found a lot of value here. Baleful Force and Liliana Vess being the most notable examples.
@atr0s - Thanks for sharing your tournament report. Sounds like it was a blast. I'm interested in hearing how Meren works out for you in the future. The more I think about her the more I think I've underestimated her.
Edit: Noticed I put up an older list by accident. Changed to a more current list.
Meren- seems like she would most likely contend with Deathreap Ritual for a spot. I feel like DRR is probably better in this instance. Meren's biggest strength is that she is going to be more consistent card advantage than DRR in your list. She gives you a nice psudo-Squee, Goblin Nabob interaction with Survival of the Fittest if you're ever in a position to grind value out of it. The experience counters will rarely get a chance to accumulate so its not something I would really take into consideration. The problem I'm seeing for her though is that you have 7-9 creatures that you'll want in your hand again vs in your yard. Of these only Hermit Druid is really that high of an impact card for you.
Wretched Confluence- Is sort of an interesting card. I originally likened it to Decree of Pain where its more versatile but lacked the uncounterablity and more powerful sweeper effect of decree. After typing about Meren and DRR though I think it's probably vying for that spot as well and honestly, the versatility and upfront card advantage it gives probably does outweigh the benefits of either Meren or DRR. I'll be interested to see what your testing finds.
Unrelated to the new commander products. Have you tested Apprentice Necromancer? Ooze being cheap enough to hard cast might make it not worth it but, it seems like it would work similar for you as it does in Karador, enabling a turn 3-4 win with SotF and 2 creatures in hand. You also get a little bit of extra synergy from having Mindslicer, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Woodfall Primus, and Deathreap Ritual that also benefit from the sac drawback on the necromancer.
Banning Sol Ring might make a small group of players happy because it will add more balance to the format, but the level at which each run of precons has sold suggests that the format is getting more popular. If these broken cards were as much of a problem as some people claim, it would be more likely that web sites and forums would be filled with people complaining about Sol Ring considering how cheap and available it is now.
To be fair, I don't think Sol Ring is really a problem card for the majority of people. Its good but its power is pretty innocuous unless you're playing at a very high level of competition. I agree that the people playing at that level are really the only ones benefiting from Sol Ring being banned. I'm curious what you (or anyone that would like to weigh in on this) think the positive of keeping Sol Ring unbanned is.
I apologize if this has been discussed at length and I'm just not as well read as I should be in this discussion.
Also, I don't really agree that growth of the format really correlates to a card (or subset of cards) not being a problem. Primeval Titan was legal for around a year and a half and was widely played during that time, the first precons also came out during that time and commander experienced a huge growth in popularity. Looking back most people agree that Prime time wasn't a good thing for the format but that didn't stop people from playing, and genuinely enjoying, it in droves.
Show and tell and 10+ ways to tutor for it or rector. While not technically "cheating," its still comes down early off a mana vault or Grim Monolith and is just as nuts.
I agree with you on Protean Hulk, the end results of Boonweaver and Hulk are basically the same.
How has a discussion about whether or not primetime is better than bargain started? That's seriously absurd. Have you ever played with or against a deck using bargain (or Grislebrand)? The effects aren't even close in power level. One will often win you the game on the spot while the other gets you two lands that, unless you're abusing amulet of vigor or some etb effects on your lands, wont do anything until next turn.
And no, being an enchantment isn't a significant draw back versus being a creature. If your deck is made to cheat bargain into play, you're going to be able to do so pretty early and reliably.
Also, I think Boonweaver Giant lifts Pattern of Rebirth a little above "borderline unplayable" status...
I would say it largely depends on how competitive the players' deck are and to a lesser extent the player(s). If you're sitting down with a well tuned, competitive deck I expect your play to be at a high enough level to remember something like a pact trigger. Part of the fun in a competitive setting is that it requires tight play, having to rewind for mistakes takes away from the enjoyment of it for me at least.
If its a more casual setting though, rewinding is perfectly fine and usually in the best interest of keeping everyone happy and having fun.
The "best" way to win with Hermit Druid (which admittedly uses more cards, but is much harder to stop) is: Sacrifice Narcomoeba, Fatestitcher, and Hermit Druid to Dread Return, targeting Necrotic Ooze. Ooze gains the abilities of Morselhoarder, Devoted Druid, and Scholar of Athreos. The Ooze will have Haste thanks to Anger in the graveyard, Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon or Thornling. The abilities of Morselhoarder and Devoted Druid create infinite mana, using only mana abilities, so it cannot be responded too. Then, without passing priority, you activate Scholar of Athreos's ability a billionty times. It does not target, gains you infinite life, and can not be stopped by anything. The only opportunity anyone has to stop the combo is countering Dread Return. This is not stopped by Stifle, Mindbreak Trap, or even instant speed graveyard hate (if they use it after dread return resolves). Truly, it is the most punishing kill.
Pretty sure you can respond to devoted druid's untap ability so there are more ways to interact with it than you described but its still a pretty cool combo.
Edit: Looks like I'm wrong, Thought you might be able to stop further use of the ability with split second but that seems to not be the case since you're just using the cost.
One if the telling points there is in the last sentence "If Hermit Druid isn't destroyed on sight". That is why it isn't as good against a pod full of top tier control decks. Hermit Druid never gets activated. Or LabMan is destroyed/Exiled/bounced in response to the card draw activation.
Most of the decks dependent on "win as fast as I can" have that frailty against a full pod of top decks. The truly elite decks are the control decks that can occasionally go off early but are more powerful the longer the game goes.
I think you might be downplaying the dedicated combo decks a bit. Sure, One might not win in a pod full of top tier control decks but take one of those control decks and put it in a pod with hermit druid.dec, ad nauseam.dec and Pete North.dec and there is almost no way one of them doesn't go off. In a format as varied as EDH I've always found it a lot easier to ask the questions than to have the answers when playing competitively.
Truly elite is fairly vague but I can't see a list with that title that doesn't include some of the strongest dedicated combo decks.
They won't bother to counter your attempt kill the sol ring just not important enough.
Really? Cause I sure would if it'd let me play something like a turn three bribery or some other backbreaking spell
Krosan grip is the only way to kill survival before they can use it. The one time I played against it I did just that. Same for Ostone
As TSRD pointed out, not really how that works... But point taken, krosan grip is better against things that activate. What we can (hopefully) all agree on though is that these are relevant things to hit with removal, which abrupt decay does.
Dark confident is suicidal what is this the all 1 drops.dec? , no one has money for those cards anyway they aren't that much stronger than the alternatives and many times the price.
Dark confident is nuts in a well built EDH deck. with 40 life and a fair number of ways to manipulate the top of your library... I just don't know what to say if you don't see why hes really good.
arena is the only one I play against regularly it gets killed by deglamer amd krosan grip or harmonic sliver etc.
pretty much everything less than three is ramp or disposable abrupt decay doesn't kill anything that matters.
krosan grip >>> abrupt decay.
While most players in my group have gone straight from recent standard to EDH it isn't exactly battlecuiser the average cmc of my deck is under 3 but they aren't the win cons.
Ramp and "disposable" things like survival and arena do matter... That should be pretty self evident since, you know, people include them in their decks for a reason. If you only care about hitting game ending threats in your meta like thrumming stone then yes, abrupt decay is probably not the card for you. If you care about interacting with your opponent before they start making game ending plays though, abrupt decay is a very versatile and powerful option. In a lot of metas you have to deal with the enabling cards or else people will have accrued enough of an advantage that you stopping plan A doesn't matter, they'll recur it and try again or win with plan B.
Midrange doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists as a middle ground on a spectrum between aggro and control that has a distinct play style which set it apart from other archetypes that exist in the same space such as aggro-control. If there isn't something for midrange to be bigger than then it isn't midrange.
Aggro is different from format to format, and in EDH especially it has had to change, but I think it always exists because it is one of the three corner stones that define archetypes in magic.
I would definitely argue that your Xenagos deck is an aggro deck in EDH. You even write:
right before you list the deck. That seems much more in line with aggro's definition than midrange's. Either way though, it looks like a fun deck to pilot
This would be what I consider the important part of that definition. If a deck is always playing a proactive, tempo-based game because there aren't (m)any decks for it to go bigger than then that deck is probably an aggro deck.
One card that I found very good that hasn't been mentioned yet is Apprentice Necromancer. This card does so much work with Meren. Hes a fast way to accumulate experience counters, he gives you access to your bigger etb creatures early if you have them in your yard, and he can get their effects at instant speed every turn. Hes worth trying out if you have a reliable way of milling yourself.
Fair points, there might not be as much parity between them as I first thought. The main draw is of course that it produces black mana, which probably isn't as important as in previous builds without NO.
@hellniore - Your list looks amazingly fun to play. I'm curious, have you tested cards like Azusa, Lost but Seeking or Exploration for redundancy with Manabonds?
Sorry I'm late getting back to you. I have run it with decent success in my list. It's definitely one of the weaker reanimation effect I've tested but being searchable with SotF has been pretty useful so far.
Here is the list I've been running.
1x Savra, Queen of the Golgari
Lands (37)
1x Ancient Tomb
1x Barren Moor
1x Bayou
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cabal Coffers
1x City of Brass
1x Command Tower
1x Dust Bowl
3x Forest
1x Gaea's Cradle
1x High Market
1x Llanowar Wastes
1x Mana Confluence
1x Marsh Flats
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Polluted Delta
1x Polluted Mire
1x Reflecting Pool
1x Strip Mine
4x Swamp
1x Tarnished Citadel
1x Tranquil Thicket
1x Twilight Mire
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Wasteland
1x Windswept Heath
1x Woodland Cemetery
1x Apprentice Necromancer
1x Baleful Force
1x Bloodghast
1x Crypt Ghast
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Eternal Witness
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Fauna Shaman
1x Fleshbag Marauder
1x Grave Titan
1x Graveborn Muse
1x Grim Haruspex
1x Hermit Druid
1x Lotus Cobra
1x Massacre Wurm
1x Merciless Executioner
1x Ophiomancer
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
1x Rune-Scarred Demon
1x Sadistic Hypnotist
1x Sakura-Tribe Elder
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1x Stinkweed Imp
1x Void Winnower
Spells (15)
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Diabolic Intent
1x Dread Return
1x Entomb
1x Krosan Grip
1x Life/Death
1x Life from the Loam
1x Living Death
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Reanimate
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Victimize
1x Wake the Dead
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Animate Dead
1x Bitterblossom
1x Burgeoning
1x Dance of the Dead
1x Deathreap Ritual
1x Exploration
1x Greater Good
1x Necromancy
1x Necropotence
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Survival of the Fittest
1x Sylvan Library
Artifacts (8)
1x Altar of Dementia
1x Birthing Pod
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Golgari Signet
1x Mana Crypt
1x Phyrexian Altar
1x Skullclamp
1x Sol Ring
Plainswalker (1)
1x Liliana Vess
I'm not sure if it will be too helpful for you since our deck's goals are pretty different but who knows? I've found a lot of value here. Baleful Force and Liliana Vess being the most notable examples.
@atr0s - Thanks for sharing your tournament report. Sounds like it was a blast. I'm interested in hearing how Meren works out for you in the future. The more I think about her the more I think I've underestimated her.
Edit: Noticed I put up an older list by accident. Changed to a more current list.
Wretched Confluence- Is sort of an interesting card. I originally likened it to Decree of Pain where its more versatile but lacked the uncounterablity and more powerful sweeper effect of decree. After typing about Meren and DRR though I think it's probably vying for that spot as well and honestly, the versatility and upfront card advantage it gives probably does outweigh the benefits of either Meren or DRR. I'll be interested to see what your testing finds.
Unrelated to the new commander products. Have you tested Apprentice Necromancer? Ooze being cheap enough to hard cast might make it not worth it but, it seems like it would work similar for you as it does in Karador, enabling a turn 3-4 win with SotF and 2 creatures in hand. You also get a little bit of extra synergy from having Mindslicer, Kokusho, the Evening Star, Woodfall Primus, and Deathreap Ritual that also benefit from the sac drawback on the necromancer.
To be fair, I don't think Sol Ring is really a problem card for the majority of people. Its good but its power is pretty innocuous unless you're playing at a very high level of competition. I agree that the people playing at that level are really the only ones benefiting from Sol Ring being banned. I'm curious what you (or anyone that would like to weigh in on this) think the positive of keeping Sol Ring unbanned is.
I apologize if this has been discussed at length and I'm just not as well read as I should be in this discussion.
Also, I don't really agree that growth of the format really correlates to a card (or subset of cards) not being a problem. Primeval Titan was legal for around a year and a half and was widely played during that time, the first precons also came out during that time and commander experienced a huge growth in popularity. Looking back most people agree that Prime time wasn't a good thing for the format but that didn't stop people from playing, and genuinely enjoying, it in droves.
I agree with you on Protean Hulk, the end results of Boonweaver and Hulk are basically the same.
And no, being an enchantment isn't a significant draw back versus being a creature. If your deck is made to cheat bargain into play, you're going to be able to do so pretty early and reliably.
Also, I think Boonweaver Giant lifts Pattern of Rebirth a little above "borderline unplayable" status...
If its a more casual setting though, rewinding is perfectly fine and usually in the best interest of keeping everyone happy and having fun.
Pretty sure you can respond to devoted druid's untap ability so there are more ways to interact with it than you described but its still a pretty cool combo.
Edit: Looks like I'm wrong, Thought you might be able to stop further use of the ability with split second but that seems to not be the case since you're just using the cost.
I think you might be downplaying the dedicated combo decks a bit. Sure, One might not win in a pod full of top tier control decks but take one of those control decks and put it in a pod with hermit druid.dec, ad nauseam.dec and Pete North.dec and there is almost no way one of them doesn't go off. In a format as varied as EDH I've always found it a lot easier to ask the questions than to have the answers when playing competitively.
Truly elite is fairly vague but I can't see a list with that title that doesn't include some of the strongest dedicated combo decks.
Wash out Has always been one of my favorite blue board control spells, probably would be a good fit here.
Turnabout Seems like it would be really good with the stasis theme you've got.
Temple of the false god seems really out of place in a meloku stax deck.
Really? Cause I sure would if it'd let me play something like a turn three bribery or some other backbreaking spell
As TSRD pointed out, not really how that works... But point taken, krosan grip is better against things that activate. What we can (hopefully) all agree on though is that these are relevant things to hit with removal, which abrupt decay does.
Dark confident is nuts in a well built EDH deck. with 40 life and a fair number of ways to manipulate the top of your library... I just don't know what to say if you don't see why hes really good.
Ramp and "disposable" things like survival and arena do matter... That should be pretty self evident since, you know, people include them in their decks for a reason. If you only care about hitting game ending threats in your meta like thrumming stone then yes, abrupt decay is probably not the card for you. If you care about interacting with your opponent before they start making game ending plays though, abrupt decay is a very versatile and powerful option. In a lot of metas you have to deal with the enabling cards or else people will have accrued enough of an advantage that you stopping plan A doesn't matter, they'll recur it and try again or win with plan B.