Thats why I like Wall of Resurgence, blocks most things in jund, they can't 1/1 it, I agree why people think its good to board out the vials and keep it threat dense, personally I keep them in so I can produce more threats than they have time to remove, having a thalia come down and a vial on 1-2-3 to bluff protection has been great, Rest in Peace is good for goyfs, Scavanging Oozes and tasigurs, Kalitas can get out of hand if they can remove your creatures, however we can just pray to draw the paths, bobs can be annoying but most of the time for me we can stall on the ground for long enough so they have to waste a removal spell on their own bob.
Lingering Souls has been fantastic vs Jund, if you are in black I'd get it straight away, at least 3 copies, it also has applications vs Jeskai Nahiri, Affinity and Infect.
Lets see what most of the people are playing in Jund for "removal",
100% 4x Lightning Bolt
100% 2x Abrupt Decay
100% 2x Terminate
100% 4x Liliana of the Veil
96% 2x Kolaghan's Command
92% 2x Maelstrom Pulse
57% 1x Grim Lavamancer
27% 1x Dreadbore
22% 1x Slaughter Pact
20% 1x Seal of Fire
I included Liliana, because it will nearly always tick down the first time you see it, Grim Lavamancer is a pain too, we are lucky they play only 1, all of our bears will die to all of these, which is completely fine, however we need some kind of finisher that can dodge most of these spells, there is a reason Jund is good, its because they have an answer to literally everything and has really efficient creatures.
If you're playing B, 2-3 copies of Lingering Souls in your 75 should be a given. It's one of the primary reasons for the B splash in the first place. It's great all-around, but against the Liliana decks is where it shines.
One thing I notice is how everybody is worried about jund dealing with our threats.. but no one is worried how we deal with their assets? I find specially annoying to deal with kalitas ( considering we have only 4 path)
Flicker him, path him, or throw a big Eldrazi or the Thalia twins in front of him. Game 2 I board in Auriok Champion and hope they play Kalitas as she negates his lifelink and gains life off his easily flickered tokens. All the local Jund players hate that card now.
The problem with jund isn't vial or no vial, the problem is not getting to screw them in turns 2/4 and let them jund you. The problem with jund is not being able to assess if your opening 7 will be able to do the job.
I absolutely could not say it better than this.
I think the wires were crossed on Merfolk. What I was saying there was dropping Vial makes it a touch slower and means you lose a few combat tricks, but really doesn't have much impact on the Jund matchup for that deck.
I also think, for D&T, you get more value by pulling it, but I understand why people choose not to.
In the end though, you're right, it's all about knowing when to keep a starting 7 and when to mull.
Sadly in BW I agree, thats why I like GW, you get access to some great cards that stop discard mechanics and produce a creature, or just dont die to the 2 damage
???
WB, especially the Eldrazi version, dominates the Jund matchup. It takes much more cautious play to win with WG. Especially since the addition of Selfless Spirit discard tends to be pointless in the long run.
Don't get me wrong. I think WG is fantastic; but seeing the recent abundance of Jund, Infect, and Dredge; I can't help thinking that WB has the edge again.
If you make the decision to splash, and recent results have shown choosing not to do so is just fine, B tends to be stronger pre-board vs graveyard strategies and creature-driven aggro via extra removal. This makes it exceptionally good against Jund.
G brings a lot of speed, and tends to overrun midrange, combo, and control while keeping pace with the fast decks. While I definitely appreciate the highly abuseable nature of Eternal Witness, I'd much rather have the tools that B provides to hamstring them and pick them apart.
I find it shocking that this is even an argument, to be honest you. Mosey on over to the Merfolk thread (which is the other tiered deck running Vial), and there it's common knowledge. Furthermore, the results back up the strategy - most statistical analyses of the Merfolk-Jund matchup (MTGGoldfish did one last year, and a more recent one was posted on the thread) have it hovering around 60-40 in Merfolk's favor. Now, D&T might not quite be capable of that (because Merfolk is generally better suited to the beat-face aggro game), but I have strong data to show that siding out Vial is the correct choice.
Vial does very different things in each archetype. Merfolk uses it to accelerate, while this deck utilizes it to abuse comes into play effects.
In Merfolk, cutting it is a no-brainer. All you're giving up is speed and a few combat tricks.
In D&T, Æther Vial increases your ability to control the game. Deciding to pull Vial has an extreme effect on this deck, limiting its ability to interact. I can understand the desire to hold onto that flexibility.
That said, when we're grinding off the top of our deck in this matchup, we need every bit of value we can get, and a late-game topdeck Vial can be the determining factor in a close, grindy match.
Vials in or out against Jund is a recurring source of disagreement here. Personally I'm for pulling them, but I also play WB with 3 maindeck Relics, so what do I know?
For WB, this is a pretty easy matchup, made easier by Auriok Champion and Souls. For other colors, tighter play is required.
8/6/16 PPTQ - Won
Bogles 0-2
Tron 2-0
8 Wack 2-0
Burn 2-1
Menfolk 2-0
Jund 2-1
8/7/16 Indy GPT
Jund 2-1
Abzan Coco 2-1
Kiki Chord 2-0
RG LD 2-0
ID
R1 top 8 - Had to roll out and conceded.
8/13/16 - SuperSCGIQ1K - won - top2 get invite
Grixis Delver 2-0
Tron 2-1
Goryo's/ Breach 2-0
Kiki Chord ID
Eldrazi 0-2
Top 8 - 7th seed
Affinity 2-0
Grixis Delver 2-0
Split
Total 28-9 in games, and 14-2 in matches.
I posted the list a few pages back. It's basically a Mono-white build, but the 'uniqueness' of it lies in 4 1-Drop creatures: 3 Kytheon and 1 Weathered Wayfarer - and a sword of L&S. The land package also packs 4 GQ, 3 Tec Edges, and 3 Mutavaults to help flip the Kytheon as early as turn 3.
I've seen a lot of splashing for colors and deep theory crafting of the deck on here which is awesome, but I feel the mono-white eldrazi-less version is the most consistent and powerful for the meta. The 1 drops enable pressure, multiplicity of options, and increase the tempo of our strategy.
I posted the stats above not to gloat and brag, but to hopefully give a results orientated discussion in favor of the 1 drop creature slot and possible sword of light and shadow inclusion. BUT I will brag that the affinity player that I defeated in the top 8 of the SuperIQ, 2-0 (while he was on the play both games) was the affinity player who took first in the SCG Classic a few weeks back, where there were 2 D&T style lists in the top 4. Sweet vengeance for the archetype!:)
Anyway, test it out and let me know what your guys's thoughts are on the list. I appreciate it. Thank you!
I think smasher excels in the bant eldrazi list, but our deck is about having creature's that interact with our opp. Bender fits that theme perfectly.
I'm definitely interested in hearing how this plays out for you, but BB alone makes this a hard sell, and D&T is as much about quantity and synergy as individual quality. A card like Reality Smasher is deceptively interactive.
Just its presence is enough to tilt an opponent. This can allow other plays to slide by unnoticed.
Following a TKS, Smasher represents 9 damage per turn. Mindbender wipes away the Seer, giving your opponent a card and costing you that potential 4 damage per turn, and for only the same added 5...a turn later. In those 2 turns alone you're doing half the damage with the latter than the former.
The "on cast" clause is a double-edged sword in this deck. Sure it always goes through, but you can't abuse it for virtual advantage.
On an empty board, you will seldom be able to cast Distended Mindbender, and unlike the Eldrazi decks that draw value from this mechanic with Matter Reshaper, we're ultimately just giving up established board state.
That said, just because I'm not interested, it doesn't you might not be on to something. Keep testing and let us know how it goes.
though smasher trample and haste it is one discarded card and a path away from being useless. since mindbender's ability triggers on cast it can countered and u still get to take 2 cards.
So, if I have this right, your argument is that Smasher grabbing 2 cards at the cost of itself is worse than Mindbender grabbing 2 cards at the cost of itself and another card?
How do I use TAGS my first post on the forum was how to use them as it looks much cleaner
As mentioned previously, on a computer/tablet browser you can click the buttons above the text box. If, like me lately, you post mostly from your phone, you'll need to type in the tags. I was going to write a guide for you, but then I remembered that this exists.
I had a request for my current list earlier, and promised I'd put it up. It's still a work in progress, but it's pretty vicious. Yes, I'm aware there are three-ofs that are almost always four-ofs. It's a personal call.
Basically, if the great experiment above fails to pan out, this would be the list I'd play going into a large event. It's the result of significant tuning and crushes Jund and Infect, which are the top decks in the meta right now, while holding solidly with the rest of the Tier 1 & 2 decks.
...that argued in modernnexus to reclaim our (still) tier 2 DT because of the name that some sites call the deck. Sometimes we're called W/B Flicker, Eldrazi Aggro and the worst and popular hatebears. Forgive me (Rik Dean) if I'm mistaken about who you are posted in modernnexus suggesting that they should evaluate other DT's builds. Here is the link to the updated tier lists and here is the link that someone argued. And thank you!
I've been waiting because I really didn't want to spend more them a couple tix a piece on them. But I bit the bullet and got them anyway and here is what I think. Judge's Familiar is a better card for us if protection is what you are looking for. It comes down a turn early, gives us more turn 1 plays and is ready to protect our much needed on board two drop. Also helps us power through spell snare/counter magic and can be a pain for combo decks to have to play around. In over twenty games of testing the most Selfless Spirit did as far as protection goes is a 1 for 1 and in most the games I felt like Familiar would have been better. Is it the two drop we want? Im not sure it is. But it is a good card and I think more testing is in order. All that being said, Spellskite is king. #Spellskite4President
I cannot emphasize enough how important Selfless Spirit is for this deck. Minimum of 3 should be played, but I recommend it as a 4-of. It's the most significant addition to the deck since Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. It pushed Tidehollow Sculler completely out of my deck and is one of the primary reasons I switched to WG.
I agree @chalupacabra but what I wanted to say is that it isn't rly an important tournament.. If you look for WMCQ , some are bigger than others, for example, french one was like unimportant (I m french that s why I take this example) but on the other hand, in an other WMCQ there were 2 junk decks that made top 8 and so now junk is "back" on the metagame.
If you want , I can take my example, I 'll bring E&Taxes to GP Lille in august but only for the Friday event (and maybe for the Sunday if I don't make day 2) because it s a deck I love but I guess I know more living end for a 15th round tournament. The "strange mono white d&t user" may have done the same btw
Personally I'll scan any list that does well for ideas. Some will be compatible with the way I tend to play D&T. Others will not.
What Hersch's list hinted at is that Selfless Spirit is very good. Testing on my own confirms this. It massively tipped the Tron matchup back in my favor and helped in most other matchups as well. We're never required to follow any particular player's lead, but it's always worth looking at what posts results, even at small events, and seeing what happens. The dismissal on display, even from someone who has landed in the Top 8 of all nearby GPs (which, to my knowledge, none of the posters in question have) is grossly undervaluing useful information. Even landing in the Top 8 of a 60-player event is difficult. You don't have to worship these results, and you definitely shouldn't copy any list, but disrespecting them like this isn't the way to grow as a player and you'll never learn or advance in anything; be it MtG, any other hobby, or your profession; if you sit around rationalizing dismissing new information instead of processing it and looking for ways to use it to your advantage.
@mrPandarian you 're right, SCG classic is like a giant FNM, the idea is that Scg classic takes place the sunday.
This day, the best players are playing day 2 of main event.
Then, the Scg open is himself a -place to brew- , I mean, it s a place where pros are trying things , so you can't really copy the top 8 decks of this kind of events if the decks are from the top 10 players of SCG. For exemple, if Jeff Hooglang makes top 8 with a new list of Kiki chord, it doesn't mean that it s a good list, far from that.
So for SCG, interesting lists are the one that make top 16 of SGC open, then you have to look who brought them. Compare. As if Jim Davis brings Nahiri Jeskai for the 1 st time, his list is probably a good one.
The real good lists are the GP's one. And here you can consider that the top 32 + undefeated day 1 lists are probably the best.
Don't really feel like SCG classic is a "good tournament" because best players are not playing there. The only thing is that you will find some WTF decks and so you'll see some nice articles about them and, also, maybe on some pro players stream.
If you're not sure if a deck is good or not, ask pro players what they think about the deck and they'll answer. It can still help you. So mrPandarian was right, SCG classic is never a good thing to consider
It s more like a big trial (wait... Isn't it like an early bird gp side event ?) Best players don't play it and... Oh it s definitely a side event
Classics aren't the main event, but they're still 100-200 player events and it's not uncommon for pros who, for whatever reason, don't make Day 2 of the main to play in the Classics.
If you haven't played in events like this, I can understand writing them off, but there's no real difference in scale between the Classics and the PTQs or State/Regional Championships, and they're almost always bigger events than PPTQs or GPTs, with significantly more pro turnout due to the fact that SCG pays cash.
Being able to come in 4th out of likely 160+ people (I don't have a headcount, unfortunately) is no small achievement.
The FNMs/TNMs I go to are pretty big, usually 36-45 players, and a lot of the regulars are Top 8 players (one of whom just made the Pro Tour), but I wouldn't begin to equate those with an SCG Classic.
Speaking of, after two weeks away from the game, I went 4-0 last night despite an incredible amount of rust.
Selfless Spirit is absolutely amazing. I'm not remotely surprised that Max Hersch was able to ride it to a 4th place finish. I was only able to pick up a 3rd copy last night (the store had been cleaned out), but I definitely want to own a 4th and will be playing no less than 3 in the deck. It's a game-changer for D&T.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar was less impressive, but I'm not going to rule it out quite yet. I'm also not in any hurry to go up to 3 copies. She's going to be hanging out in testing limbo for a little while. I can see the value of it, but I can't see it being a critical deck piece just yet. It's not unlikely that she'll get pulled for another Aven Mindcensor and a 4th copy of either Flickerwisp or Selfless Spirit. The match where it seems like she'd excel is Tron, and even there she was a minor player next to Selfless Spirit. Add Eternal Witness to the party and it just gets stupid.
The next time I get a chance to play, I will be dropping the B cards, namely Wasteland Strangler and Lingering Souls, from the deck. I was able to pick up 4 copies of Razorverge Thicket with my winnings, and will be switching over to WGC for a little while. I'm not looking forward to the manabase-tuning that this will require, but the cards that are pushing wins right now are Noble Hierarch, Eternal Witness, and the other 3 Eldrazi. I will miss both of the cards I'm pulling as they're never irrelevant, but I'd rather have the improved stability and consistency. That said, any suggestions for solid removal, preferably in creature form, in WG (no, not Mangara) would be greatly appreciated.
I'm really impressed how you manage to work with 3 and a half colors!
Thank you! It's not impossible, but it's really a matter of wringing the thing dry. I may end up going back to including Stranglers and Souls, but there were a couple games where the overabundance of mana types was an issue. If playing something like the list above, it should be a single Swamp, not Forest. I just forgot to switch that before playing.
It'll be weird dropping Strangler. I've been playing it almost non-stop (I had a little Bant jaunt a few months back) since BFZ was released. It'll be even more bizarre cutting Souls as I've been playing that even longer. Both have been incredibly reliable. Still, that's a lot of mana tuning for 5 cards.
I did not say that THIS guy is bad. He is 4th, it's the solid fact. I did say that his deck was far less powerful and consistent then many others we have here.
I do believe that a mediocre player will not succeed with that build.
During the Eldrazi Winter I almost get to the top 16 of one biggest tournaments here (more then 160 players including Russian tops). With a colorless-w build. Almost, because in a battle for 16th place (and following semi finals) I was beaten by a f..n Slivers! That guy also made top 8. Does it mean that the Slivers is the solid modern deck? I don't think so.
As someone else who's played at large competitive events, you know that there is all kinds of variance that effects results. A Tron player that has 4 Day 1 Burn matches is less likely to make Day 2 than a player who has no Burn matchups and 4 Jund matches, regardess of list quality or individual player skill. This is one of the many reasons that we can't directly compare players or decks based on final placement.
I once got to the Top 2 of a local event when I did everything wrong. Just a great deck and dumb...freaking...luck.
That said, it's impossible to make it that far in a larger-scale event without doing something right.
@chalupcabra - for creature options for removal have you considered fiend hunter? It plays well with triggered ability tricks which you can pull via displacer and vial +Flickerwisp
While D&T is always about maximizing synergies, I'm leery of any card that requires others to be effective. While it was great back in Eldrazi Winter due to all the big beasties running around, Fiend Hunter is a liability without Flicker creatures, Process creatures, or Selfless Spirit to protect it. For now, I'm probably just going to rely on Eternal Witness as a means of reusing Path to Exile, unless something just mind-numbingly awesome presents itself. Also trying to limit WW or GG costs, otherwise a 4th Wisp would be a no-brainer addition.
@mrPandarian you 're right, SCG classic is like a giant FNM, the idea is that Scg classic takes place the sunday.
This day, the best players are playing day 2 of main event.
Then, the Scg open is himself a -place to brew- , I mean, it s a place where pros are trying things , so you can't really copy the top 8 decks of this kind of events if the decks are from the top 10 players of SCG. For exemple, if Jeff Hooglang makes top 8 with a new list of Kiki chord, it doesn't mean that it s a good list, far from that.
So for SCG, interesting lists are the one that make top 16 of SGC open, then you have to look who brought them. Compare. As if Jim Davis brings Nahiri Jeskai for the 1 st time, his list is probably a good one.
The real good lists are the GP's one. And here you can consider that the top 32 + undefeated day 1 lists are probably the best.
Don't really feel like SCG classic is a "good tournament" because best players are not playing there. The only thing is that you will find some WTF decks and so you'll see some nice articles about them and, also, maybe on some pro players stream.
If you're not sure if a deck is good or not, ask pro players what they think about the deck and they'll answer. It can still help you. So mrPandarian was right, SCG classic is never a good thing to consider
It s more like a big trial (wait... Isn't it like an early bird gp side event ?) Best players don't play it and... Oh it s definitely a side event
Classics aren't the main event, but they're still 100-200 player events and it's not uncommon for pros who, for whatever reason, don't make Day 2 of the main to play in the Classics.
If you haven't played in events like this, I can understand writing them off, but there's no real difference in scale between the Classics and the PTQs or State/Regional Championships, and they're almost always bigger events than PPTQs or GPTs, with significantly more pro turnout due to the fact that SCG pays cash.
Being able to come in 4th out of likely 160+ people (I don't have a headcount, unfortunately) is no small achievement.
The FNMs/TNMs I go to are pretty big, usually 36-45 players, and a lot of the regulars are Top 8 players (one of whom just made the Pro Tour), but I wouldn't begin to equate those with an SCG Classic.
Speaking of, after two weeks away from the game, I went 4-0 last night despite an incredible amount of rust.
Selfless Spirit is absolutely amazing. I'm not remotely surprised that Max Hersch was able to ride it to a 4th place finish. I was only able to pick up a 3rd copy last night (the store had been cleaned out), but I definitely want to own a 4th and will be playing no less than 3 in the deck. It's a game-changer for D&T.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar was less impressive, but I'm not going to rule it out quite yet. I'm also not in any hurry to go up to 3 copies. She's going to be hanging out in testing limbo for a little while. I can see the value of it, but I can't see it being a critical deck piece just yet. It's not unlikely that she'll get pulled for another Aven Mindcensor and a 4th copy of either Flickerwisp or Selfless Spirit. The match where it seems like she'd excel is Tron, and even there she was a minor player next to Selfless Spirit. Add Eternal Witness to the party and it just gets stupid.
The next time I get a chance to play, I will be dropping the B cards, namely Wasteland Strangler and Lingering Souls, from the deck. I was able to pick up 4 copies of Razorverge Thicket with my winnings, and will be switching over to WGC for a little while. I'm not looking forward to the manabase-tuning that this will require, but the cards that are pushing wins right now are Noble Hierarch, Eternal Witness, and the other 3 Eldrazi. I will miss both of the cards I'm pulling as they're never irrelevant, but I'd rather have the improved stability and consistency. That said, any suggestions for solid removal, preferably in creature form, in WG (no, not Mangara) would be greatly appreciated.
Based on the Modern Nexus article, it appears we're about to drop back down to Developing Competitive. Based on statements in the article, I addressed the inconsistency with actual deck performance in the comments. Jason appears to be receptive to the matter.
Wow Catmix, spellskite x4 AND selfless spirit x3 maindeck. That is some serious protection. I am not sure that is ideal. I think 4 spellskites is too much maindeck. I hate drawing more than 1 most games, unless I am also running something that can pump them like rancor, equipment, or planeswalker.
That being said. Since you are running so much creature protection, have you thought about trying out Hokori Dustdrinker, maybe just as a singleton. Such great synergy with Thalia 1.0 and Thalia 2.0. Its main issue is the low toughness, but the spellskites and spirits take care of that. I personally have never tested Hokori, but I have also never tried running that much protection. Just a thought.
Root maze and ghostly prison are not creatures, therefore suboptimal. Archangel of Tithes and ghostly prison only tax creatures and not lands directly. Also, I don't see how recommending testing a single Hokori is "going this far".
By taxing the manabase, you prevent their ability to block/attack. This is the basis for how Winter Orb is effectively used. Hokori is simply a (fragile) Winter Orb with legs. The reason cards like Archangel of Tithes and Ghostly Prison work with it is that you are effectively locking out your opponent's ability to attack/block. This goes hand-in-hand with the mana denial plan built into the deck.
As for Root Maze, if you have room, you could do worse if you're going this route anyway.
The reason that this is relevant with "only one Hokori" is that there is currently an abundance of great choices available for this deck. If you're going to play an easily-removed 4-drop over cards like Thought-Knot Seer, Restoration Angel, old-school Linvala, and Reality Smasher, you may as well get your money's worth.
If you start removing creatures for cards like root maze and ghostly prison, then the deck becomes less D&T and more of an enchantment prison type deck, which is fine, but not really D&T. The only point of mentioning Hokori, is because the main issue with Hokori is the weakness to bolt, but if you are running 4 skites and 3 selfless spirits (like the example list posted by catmix) then that weakness is much less of an issue. That is all. I fail to see how suggesting a 3/1 Resto/Hokori split or 3/1 TKS/Hokori split means that I need to start considering cards like root maze and ghostly prison.
The point is that it's not worth considering.
You're trading proven, strong choices that have value on their own for a card that only has impact if played alongside other cards...and at the 4-mana slot.
I think the wires were crossed on Merfolk. What I was saying there was dropping Vial makes it a touch slower and means you lose a few combat tricks, but really doesn't have much impact on the Jund matchup for that deck.
I also think, for D&T, you get more value by pulling it, but I understand why people choose not to.
In the end though, you're right, it's all about knowing when to keep a starting 7 and when to mull.
WB, especially the Eldrazi version, dominates the Jund matchup. It takes much more cautious play to win with WG. Especially since the addition of Selfless Spirit discard tends to be pointless in the long run.
Don't get me wrong. I think WG is fantastic; but seeing the recent abundance of Jund, Infect, and Dredge; I can't help thinking that WB has the edge again.
If you make the decision to splash, and recent results have shown choosing not to do so is just fine, B tends to be stronger pre-board vs graveyard strategies and creature-driven aggro via extra removal. This makes it exceptionally good against Jund.
G brings a lot of speed, and tends to overrun midrange, combo, and control while keeping pace with the fast decks. While I definitely appreciate the highly abuseable nature of Eternal Witness, I'd much rather have the tools that B provides to hamstring them and pick them apart.
You really can't go wrong with either, however.Vial does very different things in each archetype. Merfolk uses it to accelerate, while this deck utilizes it to abuse comes into play effects.
In Merfolk, cutting it is a no-brainer. All you're giving up is speed and a few combat tricks.
In D&T, Æther Vial increases your ability to control the game. Deciding to pull Vial has an extreme effect on this deck, limiting its ability to interact. I can understand the desire to hold onto that flexibility.
That said, when we're grinding off the top of our deck in this matchup, we need every bit of value we can get, and a late-game topdeck Vial can be the determining factor in a close, grindy match.
For WB, this is a pretty easy matchup, made easier by Auriok Champion and Souls. For other colors, tighter play is required.
4 Brushland
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Plains
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Temple Garden
Creatures (31)
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Eternal Witness
3 Flickerwisp
3 Leonin Arbiter
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Reality Smasher
4 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Path to Exile
Artifacts (3)
3 Æther Vial
2 Auriok Champion
1 Celestial Purge
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Stony Silence
2 Thragtusk
2 Wrath of God
Edit:
Death & TaxesMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
1 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
Creatures (27)
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Flickerwisp
3 Leonin Arbiter
2 Reality Smasher
4 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Path to Exile
Artifacts (6)
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Æther Vial
2 Anguished Unmaking
2 Auriok Champion
1 Celestial Purge
2 Lingering Souls
3 Stony Silence
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Wrath of God
2 Zealous Persecution
What Hersch's list hinted at is that Selfless Spirit is very good. Testing on my own confirms this. It massively tipped the Tron matchup back in my favor and helped in most other matchups as well. We're never required to follow any particular player's lead, but it's always worth looking at what posts results, even at small events, and seeing what happens. The dismissal on display, even from someone who has landed in the Top 8 of all nearby GPs (which, to my knowledge, none of the posters in question have) is grossly undervaluing useful information. Even landing in the Top 8 of a 60-player event is difficult. You don't have to worship these results, and you definitely shouldn't copy any list, but disrespecting them like this isn't the way to grow as a player and you'll never learn or advance in anything; be it MtG, any other hobby, or your profession; if you sit around rationalizing dismissing new information instead of processing it and looking for ways to use it to your advantage. Thank you! It's not impossible, but it's really a matter of wringing the thing dry. I may end up going back to including Stranglers and Souls, but there were a couple games where the overabundance of mana types was an issue. If playing something like the list above, it should be a single Swamp, not Forest. I just forgot to switch that before playing.
It'll be weird dropping Strangler. I've been playing it almost non-stop (I had a little Bant jaunt a few months back) since BFZ was released. It'll be even more bizarre cutting Souls as I've been playing that even longer. Both have been incredibly reliable. Still, that's a lot of mana tuning for 5 cards.
Edit: As someone else who's played at large competitive events, you know that there is all kinds of variance that effects results. A Tron player that has 4 Day 1 Burn matches is less likely to make Day 2 than a player who has no Burn matchups and 4 Jund matches, regardess of list quality or individual player skill. This is one of the many reasons that we can't directly compare players or decks based on final placement.
I once got to the Top 2 of a local event when I did everything wrong. Just a great deck and dumb...freaking...luck.
That said, it's impossible to make it that far in a larger-scale event without doing something right. While D&T is always about maximizing synergies, I'm leery of any card that requires others to be effective. While it was great back in Eldrazi Winter due to all the big beasties running around, Fiend Hunter is a liability without Flicker creatures, Process creatures, or Selfless Spirit to protect it. For now, I'm probably just going to rely on Eternal Witness as a means of reusing Path to Exile, unless something just mind-numbingly awesome presents itself. Also trying to limit WW or GG costs, otherwise a 4th Wisp would be a no-brainer addition.
If you haven't played in events like this, I can understand writing them off, but there's no real difference in scale between the Classics and the PTQs or State/Regional Championships, and they're almost always bigger events than PPTQs or GPTs, with significantly more pro turnout due to the fact that SCG pays cash.
Being able to come in 4th out of likely 160+ people (I don't have a headcount, unfortunately) is no small achievement.
The FNMs/TNMs I go to are pretty big, usually 36-45 players, and a lot of the regulars are Top 8 players (one of whom just made the Pro Tour), but I wouldn't begin to equate those with an SCG Classic.
Speaking of, after two weeks away from the game, I went 4-0 last night despite an incredible amount of rust.
Abzan Death & TaxesMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Marsh Flats
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
Creatures (29)
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Eternal Witness
3 Flickerwisp
3 Leonin Arbiter
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Reality Smasher
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Path to Exile
Artifacts (4)
3 Æther Vial
2 Auriok Champion
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Lingering Souls
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Stony Silence
2 Thragtusk
Thalia, Heretic Cathar was less impressive, but I'm not going to rule it out quite yet. I'm also not in any hurry to go up to 3 copies. She's going to be hanging out in testing limbo for a little while. I can see the value of it, but I can't see it being a critical deck piece just yet. It's not unlikely that she'll get pulled for another Aven Mindcensor and a 4th copy of either Flickerwisp or Selfless Spirit. The match where it seems like she'd excel is Tron, and even there she was a minor player next to Selfless Spirit. Add Eternal Witness to the party and it just gets stupid.
The next time I get a chance to play, I will be dropping the B cards, namely Wasteland Strangler and Lingering Souls, from the deck. I was able to pick up 4 copies of Razorverge Thicket with my winnings, and will be switching over to WGC for a little while. I'm not looking forward to the manabase-tuning that this will require, but the cards that are pushing wins right now are Noble Hierarch, Eternal Witness, and the other 3 Eldrazi. I will miss both of the cards I'm pulling as they're never irrelevant, but I'd rather have the improved stability and consistency. That said, any suggestions for solid removal, preferably in creature form, in WG (no, not Mangara) would be greatly appreciated.
Death & TaxesMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
4 Brushland
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Temple Garden
3 Windswept Heath
Creatures (30)
1 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Eternal Witness
3 Flickerwisp
3 Leonin Arbiter
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Reality Smasher
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Path to Exile
Artifacts (3)
3 Æther Vial
2 Auriok Champion
2 Declaration in Stone
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Stony Silence
2 Thragtusk
You're trading proven, strong choices that have value on their own for a card that only has impact if played alongside other cards...and at the 4-mana slot.
It's a build-around card, not a one-off.