From experience, 4 x 4 and 5 x 5 grids are not very good. As described before, for 3 player grid drafts I recommend packs of 12. You start with a 3x3 grid, replace the cards taken by the first player, and then clear the pack after the third player has chosen their cards.
We ran 4 player grid with the same setup, except that the 4th pick got the leftovers. It worked pretty well. Decks ended up very focused - we had blue/black control, blue/white control, green/black aggro/midrange, and red aggro splash black.
I will say, I had a lot of fun forcing the storm deck in the powered MODO cube (before Travis Woo started streaming it and made the archetype unreliable to force). A lot of the cards the storm deck needs are just too narrow to be good includes, though.
That's not even true. A 4/3 for R is obviously broken, and 4 damage to the dome for R is clearly constructed playable (Lava Spike sees play in Legacy and is worse). However, the combination of both, Vexing Devil, is not constructed playable. The same can be said about Browbeat. Draw 3 for 2R is broken, 5 damage to the dome for 2R is constructed playable, but Browbeat is terrible. Of course if both halves are "win the game", that's another story, but your example is not really convincing
I did not say "if both halves of a punisher card are constructed playable, the punisher card is playable". Please read my post again.
My point is that there is some level of power that makes the sum of a punisher card powerful enough for constructed. That line is different for each card, obviously.
If Vexing Devil was 10 to the face or a 10/10, would you play it? What if Soul Ransom cost UB and cycled when it came into play?
Don't buy an Old Man of the Sea or a Lion's Eye Diamond. They're bad in the cube anyways, so you can save yourself some cash. The other ones, just replace with a cheaper "like-for-like" card until the price comes down or you can afford it. Pick up a GB force of will.
If you're building the MODO cube to be the MODO cube, Lion's Eye Diamond is really important for the storm deck. I wouldn't cut it unless you cut the entire storm package, and at point, why are you copying the MODO cube?
Personally I think the 540 list is MUCH better than any of the old 720 lists, which are pretty awful.
Punisher cards are not inherently bad or unplayable, they are just worse than they look to a lot of people. If a card existed that read: "You win the game, or any opponent may lose the game to counter this spell" it would obviously be broken in half. That's an exaggeration, but it makes my point: if the two "halves" of a punisher card are powerful enough, it can make for a constructed playable card.
I don't agree with this. Sometimes, they cast threats on 4 and 5 and you need to sweep them away on turn 6.
Again, in your situation the card is only good when I already have a sweeper.
Sometimes, they try to burn out your wall post-combat that is holding their big threat back.
Sometimes, they try to Armageddon you!
Ok, so it's a spin on Hindering Light. Which is totally fine out of the board in a control deck, and I already said I could see this coming in out of the board.
Sometimes, you want to blow up their lands in a mid-late game stall (esp. vs. blue decks) but doing so stunts your own development. Sometimes, you don't draw Armageddon until turn 6 or later.
I consider Armageddon to be a disruptive play, not a controlling one. Semantics maybe, but words mean things as chapin has said. Spells that sweep lands/mana rocks are not concerned with answering the opponents threats, they are disrupting the opponent's ability to play threats. Boros Charm fits in a disruptive "break the synergy of the sweepers" deck, but to me that's not "control".
Also, if I'm playing big board sweepers like Armageddon, Akroma's Vengeance, Burning, Obliterate/Jokulhaups etc, there is NO WAY I'm not including Boros Charm if I have access to the colors. Why wouldn't you, not only for the blowout potential, but to protect yourself from PWs and possibly to save some defending creatures?
-AA
My view is probably tinted by my own cube. The only mass land destruction I run is Armageddon, which sees play primarily in aggressive/disruptive decks, and the only permanent sweepers I run are Nev's Disk and Elspeth Tirel. If you run the full suite of "blow everything up"s, Boros Charm definitely has a home in that "break the synergy" archetype. But again, that's not what I call "control".
The ability to hit planeswalkers is definitely relevant, but they are the least represented card type in most cubes, and some of the most threatening planeswalkers start at 5 loyalty or more anyway. Again, great out of the sideboard if your opponent had an Elspeth Knight-Errant, not something I'm that interested in main-boarding in the dark in a control deck.
All this said, I hope I'm wrong because I love cards that fit in multiple archetypes. But I don't see myself taking this in a control deck if there is anything else in the pack for me.
i don't get the idea that this card and wrath/geddon/wildfire don't go in the same deck. they do. the only deck this isn't good in is very creature-light control. even control decks run utility guys, walls, etc. and every deck can take advantage of the best two options.
1) Doesn't work with the lands part of Wildfire (although it does with Burning)
2) You can definitely blow someone out with this + any sweeper, but generally if you have two extra mana after wildfire/wrath/geddon you're in good shape anyway. The only time Boros Charm helps in a control deck is when you're not already breaking the synergy of a sweeper, and that means you're casting the sweeper defensively, which also means you may not even have the two extra mana available to cast Charm in response.
Basically I don't want a card in my control deck that is only usable in a situation where I already have a sweeper (since the other two modes are very aggro-focused). This is an aggro card first and foremost, which can find use in some midrange decks and maybe come out of the sideboard in a control deck.
Not trying to rag on the card, I think it's a great inclusion overall for the kind of weak Boros section. It's definitely going in my list. It's just not the type of card I want in my control decks.
I'm not taking life advice from patrick chapin. I don't care about his opinion on words. My experience with actual rape is not a light one, and in fact is very close to home. I'm not down with the absurdly politically correct, and over-sensitive Bull**** that seems to be so prevalent these days. Formerly 'negative' words are now 'positive' and vice versa. It just can't matter that much.
Words mean things, yes, but words don't harm me, because I'm not a child. I can say Boros charm is a great card, and it means the same thing and everyone knows that. Speaking of which, the disk interaction is absurd, and is my first and foremost post-GTC goal.
It's not about words harming you. It's about words harming others. If you were actually not a child, you would not have a problem with changing your language to avoid hurting others. It's not difficult.
The beauty of a strict "where best" method is that you can't classify incorrectly. It either is better in one combination or it's not. It doesn't matter by how much it's better than. It's marginally better in Orzhov than in Golgari for example, and that makes the classification simple.
It's better in mono-black because all of your lands get the mana bonus, thus the "where best" method puts it in black. But I'm tired of beating this dead horse at this point. You win
No one's complaining about Desolation Angel not being in wtwlf's black section, and it's the SAME type of scenario: the card itself is one color, but it is better in a specific 2-color combination. Putting cards into the sections where they are *best* is the right call. Extort is far and away better in a W/B deck vs mono-white..
I don't have a problem with Extort in the Orzhov section, since I put hybrid cards in guild sections too. My problem is specifically with Crypt Ghast. Guild cards are typically not slanted towards one of the color pair or the other (some certainly are, but not by a lot). Ghast however, is heavily, heavily slanted towards black - you're playing the card much more for it's mana ability vs. it's Extort ability, and generally you're going to have enough excess black mana from the ability that being able to pay white for the Extort is mostly irrelevant.
I'm mainly just sad because including Ghast in Orzhov means some sweet Orzhov card probably gets cut
I'm okay with the minuscule imbalances that the "where best" method brings with it.
I think "where best" is a great approach, I just think you have identified the "where best" for Ghast incorrectly. Splitting hairs though.
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Trygon Predator
Simic Sky Swallower
I plan on testing Edric, Spymaster of Trest, but I don't really know what I want to cut. At first, I don't consider testing him at all, expecting a new card from gatecrash. But it doesn't look like that new U/G card 'll be coming, so, what should I cut to test Edric? Or should I just leave him out?
Looking at your cube (360 cards with heavy aggro/tempo support in U/G, but not a lot of ramp in those colors) I would definitely try out Edric, cutting Simic Sky Swallower.
We did not do 4x4. We did 3x3 with 4 people, and replacing the first row/column taken. There were a ton of interesting decisions.
We ran 4 player grid with the same setup, except that the 4th pick got the leftovers. It worked pretty well. Decks ended up very focused - we had blue/black control, blue/white control, green/black aggro/midrange, and red aggro splash black.
I found it constantly pretty open in the early days of the powered cube. Going down from 720 to 540 helped the archetype a ton.
I really hope that they stick with the 540 size next time they bring the unpowered cube back. Their 720 version just had so much chaff.
Almost all of his suggestions are way too strong for a two-mana charm.
It kind of has to be inconsistent to not be absurd, right?
I did not say "if both halves of a punisher card are constructed playable, the punisher card is playable". Please read my post again.
My point is that there is some level of power that makes the sum of a punisher card powerful enough for constructed. That line is different for each card, obviously.
If Vexing Devil was 10 to the face or a 10/10, would you play it? What if Soul Ransom cost UB and cycled when it came into play?
If you're building the MODO cube to be the MODO cube, Lion's Eye Diamond is really important for the storm deck. I wouldn't cut it unless you cut the entire storm package, and at point, why are you copying the MODO cube?
Personally I think the 540 list is MUCH better than any of the old 720 lists, which are pretty awful.
As it is, Soul Ransom is not close to cubable.
Again, in your situation the card is only good when I already have a sweeper.
Ok, so it's a spin on Hindering Light. Which is totally fine out of the board in a control deck, and I already said I could see this coming in out of the board.
I consider Armageddon to be a disruptive play, not a controlling one. Semantics maybe, but words mean things as chapin has said. Spells that sweep lands/mana rocks are not concerned with answering the opponents threats, they are disrupting the opponent's ability to play threats. Boros Charm fits in a disruptive "break the synergy of the sweepers" deck, but to me that's not "control".
My view is probably tinted by my own cube. The only mass land destruction I run is Armageddon, which sees play primarily in aggressive/disruptive decks, and the only permanent sweepers I run are Nev's Disk and Elspeth Tirel. If you run the full suite of "blow everything up"s, Boros Charm definitely has a home in that "break the synergy" archetype. But again, that's not what I call "control".
The ability to hit planeswalkers is definitely relevant, but they are the least represented card type in most cubes, and some of the most threatening planeswalkers start at 5 loyalty or more anyway. Again, great out of the sideboard if your opponent had an Elspeth Knight-Errant, not something I'm that interested in main-boarding in the dark in a control deck.
All this said, I hope I'm wrong because I love cards that fit in multiple archetypes. But I don't see myself taking this in a control deck if there is anything else in the pack for me.
1) Doesn't work with the lands part of Wildfire (although it does with Burning)
2) You can definitely blow someone out with this + any sweeper, but generally if you have two extra mana after wildfire/wrath/geddon you're in good shape anyway. The only time Boros Charm helps in a control deck is when you're not already breaking the synergy of a sweeper, and that means you're casting the sweeper defensively, which also means you may not even have the two extra mana available to cast Charm in response.
Basically I don't want a card in my control deck that is only usable in a situation where I already have a sweeper (since the other two modes are very aggro-focused). This is an aggro card first and foremost, which can find use in some midrange decks and maybe come out of the sideboard in a control deck.
Not trying to rag on the card, I think it's a great inclusion overall for the kind of weak Boros section. It's definitely going in my list. It's just not the type of card I want in my control decks.
It's not about words harming you. It's about words harming others. If you were actually not a child, you would not have a problem with changing your language to avoid hurting others. It's not difficult.
It's better in mono-black because all of your lands get the mana bonus, thus the "where best" method puts it in black. But I'm tired of beating this dead horse at this point. You win
I don't have a problem with Extort in the Orzhov section, since I put hybrid cards in guild sections too. My problem is specifically with Crypt Ghast. Guild cards are typically not slanted towards one of the color pair or the other (some certainly are, but not by a lot). Ghast however, is heavily, heavily slanted towards black - you're playing the card much more for it's mana ability vs. it's Extort ability, and generally you're going to have enough excess black mana from the ability that being able to pay white for the Extort is mostly irrelevant.
I'm mainly just sad because including Ghast in Orzhov means some sweet Orzhov card probably gets cut
I think "where best" is a great approach, I just think you have identified the "where best" for Ghast incorrectly. Splitting hairs though.
Looking at your cube (360 cards with heavy aggro/tempo support in U/G, but not a lot of ramp in those colors) I would definitely try out Edric, cutting Simic Sky Swallower.