There's nothing about Isamaru that makes it white red at all. It plays as an Isamaru in every 2-color white deck. There's no intrinsic quality that prohibits it from performing at its fullest in one combination versus another. Therefore it's a white card.
The Ghast is intrinsically better when you have both white and black mana available (vs. other 2-color decks). Even if the difference is minuscule, it's still better in that combination than in others. To keep my classifications consistent throughout the cube, I classify everything where it's intrinsically best. Not based on function or any other metric.
What's more important though - keeping your classifications "consistent" in an ultra-technical fashion, or keeping your classifications balanced in a way that actually keeps colors and archetypes represented in the way you want them to be?
Thought experiment: If tomorrow Wizards made a functional reprint of Mana Drain with "Kicker R - if New Mana Drain was kicked, gain 1 life.", would you classify it as Izzet?
And as I've said multiple times in this thread so far, it's a #5 or #6 Simic card at best. Meaning that in a guild section your size, I wouldn't recommend playing it either.
But for folks that run 6+ cards per pair, this could be a consideration for a cube of that size for all the reasons mentioned so far in this thread.
I think it's better than Simic Signet though. But in a section that size, I'd cut the Signet for a land.
Even in bigger sections, I'd still advise against running Zegana. Think about how many creatures >6 CMC you run in green and blue. For me, the answer is 6 total (Prime Time, F. Titan, C. Sphinx, Hornet Queen, Big Nasty Terasty, Woodfall Primus) out of 118 cards. That's a 5% ratio. So, I don't think there is room in the Simic guild section for 2 6 CMC creatures, that would be devoting 20% of your guild section to fatties. Preserving a mana curve is super important to me, and I think SSS beats out Zegana by a fair margin in the fatty race.
That said, if a playgroup is clamoring for a certain card and wants to try out Zegana, that would be more than enough reason for me to try her out. Gotta design for the people actually playing the cube.
As far as Simic Signet goes, I wanted to throw a bone to Upheaval/Tinker/generic Simic ramp, since artifact mana is relatively limited in my cube (no power, only one signet). I could see cutting it for something else, but more than likely I'll just be moving it into the artifact mana section and adding the other signets.
Isamaru has no red mana symbol anywhere. Exort has black and white. Thats his logic. I dont agree with the way he classified it but why discussing about something that is personal preference? Its his cube I guess and if he wants to classify Goblin Guide as blue he still can ...
I understand his logic even if I don't agree with it, but I was just pointing out that I don't think he's applying that logic consistently. I understand that it's his cube and he can classify as he wants (and I already stated that), but I'm not sure what this forum is for if not discussion and constructive criticism.
I haven't played with Edric very much, no. We've theorized about him but we don't support enough blue tempo to try him.
Yeah, he is definitely worse if you don't play blue tempo, but I still think he's be worth a try unless your blue section is completely devoid of evasive creatures, which would seem odd. While he is an Ophidian himself and appreciates Man-o-War effects, granting the ability to your evasive creatures means he doesn't need Man-o-Wars to get through like a traditional Ophidian.
My classification assumptions are based on 2-color decks because the overwhelming majority of our decks are 2-color ones.
With this logic, is Isamaru a Boros card? Assuming no one is playing mono-white according to you, it seems like Isamaru goes in the Boros section since that's where he is "best played".
Classify how you want, and I see the logic you are using, but I think with Ghast you are classifying towards technicalities as opposed to how the card actually will play out. He seems to me a heavy black/X card, not really a black/white card.
What % of the time will Edric be better than your standard ophidian creature? I would think that Cold-Eyed Selkie would be higher impact overall. But I only played with Selkie once in the mtgo cube and he sucked so I don't know.
Have you played with Edric? He is much, much better than an Ophidian. His ability essentially has haste if you have another creature out, and obviously plays extremely well with mana elves, man-o-wars, and evasive dorks in U/G like Invisible Stalker, Kira, and V. Clique.
I don't know whether he's better than Selkie, but I suspect he is, and at any rate he's much sweeter than Selkie.
"If it was 4GG, 4UU, or 4UG I would recommend others give it a strong look for inclusion. At 2UUGG it's just not the type of card I likeencourage others to include in mytheir cube. "
For reference, my Simic section is currently:
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Trygon Predator
Simic Sky Swallower
Mystic Snake (on the cutting block, but nothing pushing it out yet from GTC)
Tropical Island
Misty Rainforest
Breeding Pool
Simic Signet (only signet I run)
What if it's not a finisher, but a draw spell? Something to ramp into and then draw more gas with? I won't be including it over an existing finisher, but I could definitely see UG mid-range or super ramp decks including her as a way to continue a flow of gas when it otherwise would be the end of the line. Like a Tidings with a body that can be abused and add to your board presence for one extra mana. Even with just a bear out it still gives you a Jace's Ingenuity + a 3/3 body. I'm not thrilled with that, but it's fine. And with a beast token in play, it gives you 4 cards and a 4/4.
I can't wait to curve into this after a Thragtusk and draw 6 cards.
Again, power level is not something this card is short on. If it was 4GG, 4UU, or 4UG I would give it a strong look for inclusion. At 2UUGG it's just not the type of card I like in my cube.
Baneslayer Angel is not a "hoser" unless you stretch the meaning of the word "hoser" to a point where it barely has any meaning. Hosers (in the negative connotation) are cards that are unbeatable against one particular archetype or strategy, but useless or underpowered in any other situation. Rest in Peace, Kor Firewalker, and Chill are hosers.
Baneslayer Angel is a creature that is an excellent answer in many situations, at worst a solid threat, and every archetype has multiple ways to deal with it. In addition, it's an iconic creature which is much of what Cube is about. I'd never cut it at 450.
Everyone here seems to be focused on the power level of the card. I agree that the power level and abuse potential of the card is very high, but the mana cost is really the biggest problem with this card, not the power level.
I'd much rather run Simic Sky Swallower in the Simic beef department. You can play SSS in U/G, off a splash in a base G or U deck, or just as a straight reanimation/natural order target. Zegana only fits easily in straight G/U, and I'd still pick most of the existing blue and green 6 drops over it (C. Sphinx, P. Titan, Upheaval) which means this is going to wheel a lot and sit in sideboards a lot.
The second ability hits such a low percentage of my cube's spells (and is not even an answer, just a hindrance) that it's almost meaningless. So I have to evaluate it on base stats and the battalion ability, and with those, it just doesn't seem that great.
I hate that all the sweet guild leaders are costed BBCC. I understand why they did it that way, and it makes sense for constructed/regular limited (you want the Simic leader in a true Simic deck, not splashed from an Izzet deck), but man it makes them tough inclusions for cube, where at most there's probably one person in Simic ramp. Even if there's someone in that archetype, it's an easy wheel for that person, making it an uninteresting pick. If this was 4BC it would be a windmill slam into my Simic section, same with the Ghost Council.
Absolutely makes it on power level, absolutely fails on casting cost. He is very good in Pox aggro though, if you support that archetype at 450 or above I think he's a fine inclusion, as long as you make sure your black section has plenty of things to do other than mono-black.
But when it does matter, it's huge. 3 damage is a lot when you're close to 0. I've had games in lock down before on the board, but been on the verge of losing--and have seen games lost--because all the damage Crypt does. Don't get me wrong, it's really sweet, but god damn can this card bite you in the ass.
Agreed. P1P1 I'd take Black Lotus or any Mox over a Crypt. Sulfuric Vortexing yourself is a major drawback.
I had another question about mana rocks... How many rocks and of how high a quality do you think a cube needs to make Wildfire/Upheaval real players against fast Boros beats (which is a ever present archetype whenever my cube gets drafted)?
Having signets definitely helps Wildfire a lot. Mana rocks help Upheaval too, but Upheaval plays well with green's mana ramp creatures while Wildfire does not. In my 450 cube, I run Upheaval, but not Wildfire, with:
Mox Diamond
Chrome Mox
Coalition Relic
Prismatic Lens
Everflowing Chalice
Worn Powerstone
Coldsteel Heart
Grim Monolith
Chromatic Lantern
Simic Signet
Also, my green ramp section is very creature-oriented, which plays better with Upheaval than land-based ramp. I've been thinking about adding Wildfire/Burning of Xinye, but if I did, they would definitely come along with more mana rocks - Gilded Lotus, Thran Dynamo, and assorted Signets would be first off the bench.
What's more important though - keeping your classifications "consistent" in an ultra-technical fashion, or keeping your classifications balanced in a way that actually keeps colors and archetypes represented in the way you want them to be?
Thought experiment: If tomorrow Wizards made a functional reprint of Mana Drain with "Kicker R - if New Mana Drain was kicked, gain 1 life.", would you classify it as Izzet?
Even in bigger sections, I'd still advise against running Zegana. Think about how many creatures >6 CMC you run in green and blue. For me, the answer is 6 total (Prime Time, F. Titan, C. Sphinx, Hornet Queen, Big Nasty Terasty, Woodfall Primus) out of 118 cards. That's a 5% ratio. So, I don't think there is room in the Simic guild section for 2 6 CMC creatures, that would be devoting 20% of your guild section to fatties. Preserving a mana curve is super important to me, and I think SSS beats out Zegana by a fair margin in the fatty race.
That said, if a playgroup is clamoring for a certain card and wants to try out Zegana, that would be more than enough reason for me to try her out. Gotta design for the people actually playing the cube.
As far as Simic Signet goes, I wanted to throw a bone to Upheaval/Tinker/generic Simic ramp, since artifact mana is relatively limited in my cube (no power, only one signet). I could see cutting it for something else, but more than likely I'll just be moving it into the artifact mana section and adding the other signets.
I understand his logic even if I don't agree with it, but I was just pointing out that I don't think he's applying that logic consistently. I understand that it's his cube and he can classify as he wants (and I already stated that), but I'm not sure what this forum is for if not discussion and constructive criticism.
Yeah, he is definitely worse if you don't play blue tempo, but I still think he's be worth a try unless your blue section is completely devoid of evasive creatures, which would seem odd. While he is an Ophidian himself and appreciates Man-o-War effects, granting the ability to your evasive creatures means he doesn't need Man-o-Wars to get through like a traditional Ophidian.
With this logic, is Isamaru a Boros card? Assuming no one is playing mono-white according to you, it seems like Isamaru goes in the Boros section since that's where he is "best played".
Classify how you want, and I see the logic you are using, but I think with Ghast you are classifying towards technicalities as opposed to how the card actually will play out. He seems to me a heavy black/X card, not really a black/white card.
Have you played with Edric? He is much, much better than an Ophidian. His ability essentially has haste if you have another creature out, and obviously plays extremely well with mana elves, man-o-wars, and evasive dorks in U/G like Invisible Stalker, Kira, and V. Clique.
I don't know whether he's better than Selkie, but I suspect he is, and at any rate he's much sweeter than Selkie.
Ok, change my statement to:
"If it was 4GG, 4UU, or 4UG I would recommend others give it a strong look for inclusion. At 2UUGG it's just not the type of card I
likeencourage others to include inmytheir cube. "For reference, my Simic section is currently:
Edric, Spymaster of Trest
Trygon Predator
Simic Sky Swallower
Mystic Snake (on the cutting block, but nothing pushing it out yet from GTC)
Tropical Island
Misty Rainforest
Breeding Pool
Simic Signet (only signet I run)
Again, power level is not something this card is short on. If it was 4GG, 4UU, or 4UG I would give it a strong look for inclusion. At 2UUGG it's just not the type of card I like in my cube.
Baneslayer Angel is a creature that is an excellent answer in many situations, at worst a solid threat, and every archetype has multiple ways to deal with it. In addition, it's an iconic creature which is much of what Cube is about. I'd never cut it at 450.
I'd much rather run Simic Sky Swallower in the Simic beef department. You can play SSS in U/G, off a splash in a base G or U deck, or just as a straight reanimation/natural order target. Zegana only fits easily in straight G/U, and I'd still pick most of the existing blue and green 6 drops over it (C. Sphinx, P. Titan, Upheaval) which means this is going to wheel a lot and sit in sideboards a lot.
Agreed. P1P1 I'd take Black Lotus or any Mox over a Crypt. Sulfuric Vortexing yourself is a major drawback.
Having signets definitely helps Wildfire a lot. Mana rocks help Upheaval too, but Upheaval plays well with green's mana ramp creatures while Wildfire does not. In my 450 cube, I run Upheaval, but not Wildfire, with:
Mox Diamond
Chrome Mox
Coalition Relic
Prismatic Lens
Everflowing Chalice
Worn Powerstone
Coldsteel Heart
Grim Monolith
Chromatic Lantern
Simic Signet
Also, my green ramp section is very creature-oriented, which plays better with Upheaval than land-based ramp. I've been thinking about adding Wildfire/Burning of Xinye, but if I did, they would definitely come along with more mana rocks - Gilded Lotus, Thran Dynamo, and assorted Signets would be first off the bench.