How did the Cursed Scroll work out for you? Seems interesting, heh.
@Apes:
Would you ever consider upping Revoker count to two? Do you think MM is stronger than +1 E. Tutor, +2 combohate ( probably Thorn, Null Rod, or another Canonist )? I've found E. Tutor to be my favourite virtual hate card as it effectively dodges discard, and it shuffles in a pinch - although that's relevant like once in a blue moon. I really like that MM beats, and pitches to FoW though. I suppose you don't side out the majority of your Mother of Runes with so many juicy creatures to protect.
Since nobody has opened up discussion on it: Mental Misstep?
It doesn't matter what forum the deck is in to me. I'll still continue playtesting and discussing.
As it stands, I really don't see much changing about UW Tempo's maindeck. I believe the list with seventeen Lands, two Vials, and two Sphinxes is the strongest overall. Most alternatives ( one-for-one swaps with equivalent cmc/role ) have been "discussed" over at the Source. The sideboard is still pretty strong ( it was designed to cover a large amount of matchups at once ), but there hasn't been anyone seriously playtesting it against the current metagame. Which appears to be changing quite rapidly in the past few SCGs.
I haven't played in any major tournaments, so I can't really say too much about it's performance. However, the reason to play this over D&T and other white-based Vial decks is because of it's strong combo matchups. That extends to most types of combo, as our hate is both versatile and varied.
As for having a lot of player skill to play, I don't think that's exactly correct. It's just experience, which is needed to be successful for most decks. This deck requires a little more if you're playing against another deck that interacts meaningfully with it's opponent. Knowing when not to overextend, when to overextend, when you should have Pierce mana up, what bombs to counter, etc.
The reason most of the percentages are listed as around 50% ( although they're probably off on quite a few now ) is because almost all of UW Tempo's cards are flexible. Pretty much everything in the deck is able to perform multiple roles, and most cards will have significant interaction with even relatively non-interactive decks.
In reality, this means you have to have significant matchup/playtesting experience to determine the best course of action with your available resources each turn, and even sideboarding is finnicky. You really have to make the deck work hard to win the difficult matchups, and even the close matchups require interesting and complex decision-making most turns.
If you're looking for a deck in Jund colours you might want to check out Aggro Loam. It's a midrange deck that generates CA using the classic Loam + cycle lands rather than BBE + cascade. Although I've seen some Junk-coloured Aggro Loam lists popping up recently.
Have you tested Vials in place of the Stars? If your meta has lots of Countertop I would assume you have tested it somewhere. You've got a decent curve for it, and a couple Stoneforge Mystics would bump you up to the proper threshold for running Vial.
How are the Stars working out for you, by the way? They must certainly add some stability to your manabase, but they seem kind of off.
Have you looked into sticking the Thopter combo into this? Or perhaps the other way around? The lack of blue is apparent in your decklist, though.
Have you considered any of the Stompy lands ( Tomb, City ) to power out your 3CC and 4CC artifacts/enchantments? What about protection/disruption for landing your bombs? I think your list will have more trouble dealing with combo or control over aggro. I would probably put Duress in the board before Thoughtseize. Also, does Helm work with Planar Void?
A foolish-sounding suggestion: .. Has anyone done lists with only 3 Vengevines?
I've played Caleb's list pretty much straight up - only change has been the mana base, which is in the 8 fetch / 4 dual land / 4 Wasteland / 4 basic land format.
When do you need to fourth Vengevine? I would suspect when you are attempting to race against an established board position with a later Survival. I don't think I have ever needed the fourth, and in fact I often find myself running low on mana when comboing out on T3 for more than one Vengevine. Obviously there's the Mongrel / Rootwalla / Vengevine hand that comes up pretty often, and cutting a VV will reduce the likelihood of such a draw. That is a big concern, but if we are looking for space I would like others to look at the slot as a consideration. I still seem to have better luck starting/drawing Vengevine than I do Survival, even with the cut. Heh.
I am asking because it seems many here have decided to cut a Mongrel from the list Caleb piloted, which I disagree with doing. Many also seem to be trying to fit in additional elements to diversify the cited list, like singleton Bouncers or other silver bullets, which I think is necessary for optimization tests.
I've changed my list up a bit and added in a pair of Echoing Truths, like the Madness decks of old used to run for tempo and catch-all to compliment my maindeck Jitte removal. There are other changes to Caleb's list, such as the removal of a land ( mentioned above ), removal of a single Predator, and removal of a Stifle for an additional Daze.
I was also highly considering mainboarding in Pierces in place of the bounce, but I think it's more versatile this way. Sideboard is metagame'd.
EDIT
I guess I should explain my reasoning for cutting a VV, as it's a critical combo piece and reduces effectiveness of your non-Survival discard outlets.
Now that Vengevival has been around and put up some good results, we will inevitably see hate directed towards it. Most have anticipated this with a NOProg sideboard, but I feel that the plan severely restricts the precious space there. I don't think that it hurts the chance of T2 singleton Vengevine all that much, but it definitely hurts nuts draws of double or triple VV with Mongrel/Moeba outlet.
Often I find that a single T2 Vengevine is enough to get there, especially with Mongrel / Rootwalla support. Three Vengevines ( the most common number for a T3 combo ) is a two turn clock, and if there is a trade with one of the Vengevines, there are other critters to fill the gap and/or recur the dead one(s). I have always favoured more disruption or tempo elements in my decks, and if a fourth Vengevine isn't necessary for winning, then why not try out another card in it's place?
Don't you have issues with Wipe Away if one goes for the alpha strike? It seems to me like Brightbo is whittling them down one fat chunk of life at a time more often than going for the kill immediately. Old 'Tog lists had Mana Short and/or Upheaval to ensure no hijinks ensued, but Split Second wasn't around back then.
Have you considered a splash for white instead of black ( maindeck and/or sideboard )? White would replace Smother with Swords, and give you a couple strong wish targets in the form of Chant and Angel's Grace. It could also open up the possibility of a tutor package ( Tutor, Humility, Shackles/EE, Needle, etc. ), although I don't think that would be advantageous. The one main benefit I can see with splash white over black is you get access to better sweepers and better removal.
If you're set on the black splash, I would suggest looking at Consuming Vapors over a Smother or something. It's CA and lifegain, although a Sorcery ( can't Wish for it ).
How has the Extirpate been working out for you? What do you normally remove with it? I would assume Swords vs. Zoo and Aggro, and Force vs. Aggro-Control. But how often do you get to do that?
Wow, all this work and nobody has posted anything? Terribly unfortunate.
What would you say is the main benefit of playing Eva Depths over a dedicated disruption into-beating-face strategy, similar to how Eva Green plays?
Could you comment on some of the card choices in the decks you posted? For instance, I notice all decks posted run Confidants, where Eva Green does not. What about Maelstrom Pulse vs. Pernicious Deed? Wishboard expansion/inclusion? The inclusion of Top?
It seems this deck can play both aggro and combo quite well, but doesn't necessarily excel at either one. While this deck has resiliency in the form of recursion/wishboard, it also means it's probably going to be slower than the average combo deck. In this, it relies on it's disruption quite a bit. I notice that you don't have any sideboard for combo. In your playtesting, has 3 Thoughtseize and 4 Hymn to Tourachs been enough? I'm not really worried about the aggro aspect as Eva Depths still plays almost the same beats that Eva Green does.
Bloodghast is a must, I would say. I'd also suggest Maelstrom Pulse and Cabal Therapy for further disruption and removal, since you don't have any. I'd also suggest Big Game Hunter in place of the Assassin, as you should be able to grow most of your dudes to at least 3/3 pretty easily.
How did the Cursed Scroll work out for you? Seems interesting, heh.
@Apes:
Would you ever consider upping Revoker count to two? Do you think MM is stronger than +1 E. Tutor, +2 combohate ( probably Thorn, Null Rod, or another Canonist )? I've found E. Tutor to be my favourite virtual hate card as it effectively dodges discard, and it shuffles in a pinch - although that's relevant like once in a blue moon. I really like that MM beats, and pitches to FoW though. I suppose you don't side out the majority of your Mother of Runes with so many juicy creatures to protect.
Since nobody has opened up discussion on it: Mental Misstep?
As it stands, I really don't see much changing about UW Tempo's maindeck. I believe the list with seventeen Lands, two Vials, and two Sphinxes is the strongest overall. Most alternatives ( one-for-one swaps with equivalent cmc/role ) have been "discussed" over at the Source. The sideboard is still pretty strong ( it was designed to cover a large amount of matchups at once ), but there hasn't been anyone seriously playtesting it against the current metagame. Which appears to be changing quite rapidly in the past few SCGs.
Perhaps it will get more traffic in here, anyway!
I haven't played in any major tournaments, so I can't really say too much about it's performance. However, the reason to play this over D&T and other white-based Vial decks is because of it's strong combo matchups. That extends to most types of combo, as our hate is both versatile and varied.
As for having a lot of player skill to play, I don't think that's exactly correct. It's just experience, which is needed to be successful for most decks. This deck requires a little more if you're playing against another deck that interacts meaningfully with it's opponent. Knowing when not to overextend, when to overextend, when you should have Pierce mana up, what bombs to counter, etc.
In reality, this means you have to have significant matchup/playtesting experience to determine the best course of action with your available resources each turn, and even sideboarding is finnicky. You really have to make the deck work hard to win the difficult matchups, and even the close matchups require interesting and complex decision-making most turns.
How are the Stars working out for you, by the way? They must certainly add some stability to your manabase, but they seem kind of off.
Have you considered any of the Stompy lands ( Tomb, City ) to power out your 3CC and 4CC artifacts/enchantments? What about protection/disruption for landing your bombs? I think your list will have more trouble dealing with combo or control over aggro. I would probably put Duress in the board before Thoughtseize. Also, does Helm work with Planar Void?
I've played Caleb's list pretty much straight up - only change has been the mana base, which is in the 8 fetch / 4 dual land / 4 Wasteland / 4 basic land format.
When do you need to fourth Vengevine? I would suspect when you are attempting to race against an established board position with a later Survival. I don't think I have ever needed the fourth, and in fact I often find myself running low on mana when comboing out on T3 for more than one Vengevine. Obviously there's the Mongrel / Rootwalla / Vengevine hand that comes up pretty often, and cutting a VV will reduce the likelihood of such a draw. That is a big concern, but if we are looking for space I would like others to look at the slot as a consideration. I still seem to have better luck starting/drawing Vengevine than I do Survival, even with the cut. Heh.
I am asking because it seems many here have decided to cut a Mongrel from the list Caleb piloted, which I disagree with doing. Many also seem to be trying to fit in additional elements to diversify the cited list, like singleton Bouncers or other silver bullets, which I think is necessary for optimization tests.
I've changed my list up a bit and added in a pair of Echoing Truths, like the Madness decks of old used to run for tempo and catch-all to compliment my maindeck Jitte removal. There are other changes to Caleb's list, such as the removal of a land ( mentioned above ), removal of a single Predator, and removal of a Stifle for an additional Daze.
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
4 Tropical Island
3 Forest
1 Island
Creatures: 22
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Aquamoeba
2 Trygon Predator
3 Vengevine
1 Wonder
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Echoing Truth
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Shield Sphere
3 Submerge
2 Faerie Macabre
3 Spell Pierce
1 Trygon Predator
3 Krosan Grip
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
I was also highly considering mainboarding in Pierces in place of the bounce, but I think it's more versatile this way. Sideboard is metagame'd.
EDIT
I guess I should explain my reasoning for cutting a VV, as it's a critical combo piece and reduces effectiveness of your non-Survival discard outlets.
Now that Vengevival has been around and put up some good results, we will inevitably see hate directed towards it. Most have anticipated this with a NOProg sideboard, but I feel that the plan severely restricts the precious space there. I don't think that it hurts the chance of T2 singleton Vengevine all that much, but it definitely hurts nuts draws of double or triple VV with Mongrel/Moeba outlet.
Often I find that a single T2 Vengevine is enough to get there, especially with Mongrel / Rootwalla support. Three Vengevines ( the most common number for a T3 combo ) is a two turn clock, and if there is a trade with one of the Vengevines, there are other critters to fill the gap and/or recur the dead one(s). I have always favoured more disruption or tempo elements in my decks, and if a fourth Vengevine isn't necessary for winning, then why not try out another card in it's place?
Haha, whoops. I knew that. Most of my suggestions were geared towards replacing other black cards he posted with better white answers, though.
Have you considered a splash for white instead of black ( maindeck and/or sideboard )? White would replace Smother with Swords, and give you a couple strong wish targets in the form of Chant and Angel's Grace. It could also open up the possibility of a tutor package ( Tutor, Humility, Shackles/EE, Needle, etc. ), although I don't think that would be advantageous. The one main benefit I can see with splash white over black is you get access to better sweepers and better removal.
If you're set on the black splash, I would suggest looking at Consuming Vapors over a Smother or something. It's CA and lifegain, although a Sorcery ( can't Wish for it ).
How has the Extirpate been working out for you? What do you normally remove with it? I would assume Swords vs. Zoo and Aggro, and Force vs. Aggro-Control. But how often do you get to do that?
No, seriously, what?! Banning Mystical Tutor lowers the reliability of almost all top-tier combo decks. Why?!
What would you say is the main benefit of playing Eva Depths over a dedicated disruption into-beating-face strategy, similar to how Eva Green plays?
Could you comment on some of the card choices in the decks you posted? For instance, I notice all decks posted run Confidants, where Eva Green does not. What about Maelstrom Pulse vs. Pernicious Deed? Wishboard expansion/inclusion? The inclusion of Top?
It seems this deck can play both aggro and combo quite well, but doesn't necessarily excel at either one. While this deck has resiliency in the form of recursion/wishboard, it also means it's probably going to be slower than the average combo deck. In this, it relies on it's disruption quite a bit. I notice that you don't have any sideboard for combo. In your playtesting, has 3 Thoughtseize and 4 Hymn to Tourachs been enough? I'm not really worried about the aggro aspect as Eva Depths still plays almost the same beats that Eva Green does.