What is the point of the beseiji? Gamble and Crop roation can't be cast with it. I see little point in making Punishing Fire uncountable. Loam is the only card I can think of wanting to protect, but even then it doesn't seem like the life is worth it. If they counter loam, all it does is delay and I'm normally fine with that. Grip in the board doesn't really need the uncounterabillity, Counterbalance on 3 is the only think I can think where it matters.
Don't get me wrong, I understand that exile is important against the graveyard decks, against gearhulk, etc. But is it any worth making Ceremonious Rejection worse against you?
How do these cards interact?
I assume I will get two dragons, but then how does the card work when the dragons die.
The first one dies, Tatsumasa, the sword comes back.
When the next dragon dies, the sword comes back? so if the sword isn't on the field (like it is O-ring'ed or shattered) does it come back, or is it considered a new object?
There isn't even an upcharge on the base cost for the spell like they sometimes do for kicker style mechanics. You get cancel as your base rate which is not exciting, but is a solid workable counter. The difference between cancel,dissolve, dissipate and this is pretty minimal. They are all three 3 mana unconditional counterspells. Cancel sets their base power level and then you get a fraction of a spell's bonus on dissolve every time you cast it, a smaller fraction of a spell's worth of bonus on every dissipate, and a full spell's worth of bonus if you pay the awaken cost on this one. So yes, awakencancel is just cancel during the early game, but once you have ground the opponent down these awaken spells provide two full spells worth of effect. That's what we call:
I think everyone's missing my point. I'm not saying the card is unplayable... I'm saying it a bad option, because it's a trap. The ttap being when the bait spell hits the table... you'll be less likely to let the bait spell go through, to maximize the value of this counter. And then when you use this counter for its Awaken cost, it opens the control player up to another potentially more powerful spell. I think this card puts the control player in more forced bad situations, especially if they're trying to lean on this spell as a potential finisher.
I don't understand this argument at all?
Its a bad option because its a trap?
The two scenarios you gave
A)Using it on a bait spell instead of the actual spell they are trying to resolve
B)Using it for its awaken cost, "it opens them up to another potential more powerful spell"
I don't get what you mean by B. Are you saying, you are tapping out to awaken in a counter war and they may resolve something better?
If they are casting a bait spell, why are you more likely to cast this spell?
Let's pretend this didn't have its "trap" cost.
In this scenario, you let the bait spell resolve to save the counter for the non-bait spell.
Why does awakening change this? Because you got greedy? Sounds more like a judgement issue than a card issue
In the second case, I see this just like casting mana leak into 3 open mana. in which I've had counted back (correctly) knowing when to tap low/out and when not to is very important.
If your countering a must answer spell, its on you to make the judgment call if you can "get more value" or not. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't, but when you can't. since the spell was must answer, I don't see this as an issue. again if you try to go for more value when you shouldn't, greed on the player.
Both cases, the player misplayed, but this doesn't make the card bad, just used wrong.
Also the card is a split card
1UU counter and 4UU counter
Sure, 4UU is "better" but if you have to use it for 1UU, I didn't "waste" the card, I used the card as functioned. I needed a 3 mana counterspell when a 6 mana would not have worked.
And when you can use it as a 6 mana counter spell, you were able to use the same deck slot as a 3 mana counterspell during deck construction. In what world is this ever bad?
Its not a trap, its a very flexible card, but like all cards with lots of options are harder to use.
And as for earlier when you said Control players "Don't want to use their lands as creatures" - This is like the exact opposite. Now in my control deck I can play 28 lands and not have to be worried about flooding out. Late game I can make my lands into win cons. I need to have less dedicated slots to win cons (or just have none at all) relying only on awaken cards. This is INSANE. Why are the man lands great? because they dont use up spell slots and can still kill opponents.Where is the upside? Deck construction.
If your using this spell in bad situation because its your "finisher", your using it wrong, or you made your deck wrong (not having back up finishers in the case your opponent never casts spells [though if this is the case, I see no issue]) Worse case, if they aren't casting spells, you can always counter your own spell to get a guy. but I don't see where this is ever going to be an issue
It depends on how you look at it, I started with the dragonlands and silumgar only. and then realized the legendary rule aspect was becoming more of an issue than the power of always having a silumgar. A) Silumgar is hard to deal with, and B) If the can deal with it, if you play correctly, if you actualy care, it doesn't die. It was from there Ojutai was added because it was still castable.
I think I'm valuing the power of silumgar scorn more than you. Temple of silence is the last thing I want to play on T1. I really want a blue land on T1 to make sure I have t2 scorn up for their 3 drop. while the dragon lands dont cast for blue either, they also come into play untapped for T3 counters, or if you are screwed mana wise do cast T2 anticpaites to dig for lands. I know how good scry lands are, but its the color issue, I tried making the deck as blue as possible and splashing the black cards vs being heavy in each color.
I don't actually think Narset is free. This deck has 3 sources to cast Narset, but has 6 sources to cast Ojutai. Also your anticipates are what would allow you to get said white sources to cast Narset, so cutting an anticiapte for a narset, I would disagree with. Also Narset for Icefall, they are doing two different things. Icefall stops a resolved Stormbreath, narset does not. Narset is good while ahead or at pariy, while Icefall helps stall while behind to hopefully catch up. Icefall also turns on your counterspells and gain 4's while Narset does not. This deck also has 33 misses for Narset. While I think Narset has a place incontrol decks, the dragon deck os not it. While white spells would be nice, the mana base is not there. Either you have too many tap lands, or too many non blue sources to reliabily have scorn up on turn 2. The dragonlands could make room, but losing storage lands and regrowth lands seems incorrect, the lands are too good not to run in a deck with dragons. Oujutai is free, other white cards are not.
This deck has been doing me well, even 4-1 the last PPTQ I played in on MTGO. Traditionally I'm winning G1 due to them having lots of dead cards, losing Game 2 as your on the draw, and then winning Game 3 because your on the play.
People keep saying I have a bad Red Matchup, but I keep winning that with the above outcome.
Against the midrange decks, It comes down to if they can land a threat that requires 2 answers (rablemaster/Xenegos) before your counters are turned on.
Against control they are either not playing dragons, so you just have better counterspells and an uncounterable draw spell, or your playing the mirror, and I find they normally have more removal, or they are only playing hexproof silumgar, in which case we both end up in a board stall and it is a decking battle, or the main deck foul-tounges are finding the answer.
Against slower control deck such as Abzan and the Mirror, it basically comes down to who has more hand disruption.
I think this is what happens:
Defender of the order is a face down 2/2
Lightning Axe targets the 2/2
The 2/2 stays face down because targeting by itself does not flip the creature face up
Lightning Axes attempts to resolve,
so 5 damage is going to resolve,
This causes the Defender of the order to flip face up.
This causes the triggered ability to go on the stack.
Here is where I get lost, what happens next?
Since lightning Axe is in the middle of resolving, does it finish doing damage (assigning 5 to the defender), and then when the defender of the order triggered ability on the stack, state-based actions are checked to see that lethal damage was dealt, and the defender is put in the graveyard from play, and then the ability resolves
OR
Does lightning axe back up its resolving so that the stack is
[top]
defender of the ages triggered ability
Lightning Axe
[bottom]
Such that when lightning axe resolves, defender is a 2/6 and survives with 5 damage on it?
I want to say its the first outcome (just like how abilities prime to go on the stack during a spells resolution), but I'm not 100% sure on how a replacement effect to damage on a damage resolution would/if at all change this.
Thanks
If my opponent has a Valakut in play with 5 mountains and then plays a 6th mountain. With the trigger ability on the stack, I mind Bend Valakut from mountain to swamp.
does the triggered ability still check for mountain on it's intervening if clause?
Aka
Valakut checks for islands, Triggered Ability checks for Mountain
Or
By changing the source of the ability to swamp, the ability also changes to island on recheck?
Hi, I have some questions about the above two cards. I think the answer is a layers question and a time stamp, but I'm not 100% sure.
What are Non-Basic Lands in the following Scenarios?
1)Blood Moon on field. Mind Bend, changing Mountain to Island?
Keeping it Simple, They are all Islands, correct?
2) Blood Moon #1 on Field. Blood Moon #2 on the Field (#2 came in after #1)
What Happens If you Mind Bend #1 to island? Does Time Stamp 1 say Islands, Timestamp 2 say mountains and timestamp 2 is later, so they are mountains?
What Happens If you Mind Bend #2 to island? Does Time Stamp 1 say Mountain, Timestamp 2 say Island and timestamp 2 is later, so they are Islands?
Does Casting Mind Bend on either blood moon change its timestamp to latest timestamp, so it doesn't matter which one you target, they are all islands?
Blue based control doesn't need anymore help. Its already got the second best combination of colors (mostly being UR) in the format. Nothing, not agro, not combo, not control, nothing needs any sort of special attention or unbannings. Everything is finally good balanced. Not to mention if blue based decks did better then people would switch the meta to a heavier GB/x shell to combat this which would make the format resemble pre-M14 modern.
Good point.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
When i said good point, I was agreeing that more Control will lead to more BGx which will be annoying. I agree that Aggro and Control both need help.
How does aggro not need help? There are only two viable aggro decks, Affinity and Fish, and Fish doesn't even come close to consistently placing like Affinity does. Aggro needs help, but help won't come until Wizards gravitates back to "synergy based" aggro decks.
Also, about Blue control decks ... UWR is the only tier 1 Blue control deck. Esper and Grixis might one day be viable but they suffer from manabase issues. Those mana issues won't be solved until Onslaught fetchlands are reprinted, then we will be able to better judge what kind of power they hold in the format, until then we have only 1 tier 1 Blue-based control deck with maybe a tier 1.5 control deck in the form of Blue Moon.
We don't have to wait to judge their power level. Esper and a UB control list made top 32 at Boston. The decks are viable, but they aren't popular enough to put up the kind of results to be tier. It's a catch-22. If no one plays a deck then everyone says it's not a good deck because no one plays it.
While this might be true, Blue Moon had a thread on this forum that was ridiculed in Deck Creation months before the Pro Tour, it isn't always true. Sometimes players just get lucky or make good meta calls.
This is bad science. One data point is not enough to judge the viability of a deck or not. I'm looking into playing an Esper brew, but I'm not going to tell people that Esper is a winning strategy. The deck has manabase issues, this is known. The deck was piloted was Wafo-Tapa, on top of that fact that he's really good, luck could've also been on his side that day. If the deck keeps consistently placing then I will be the first to concede its viability, but do not use 1 data point to argue the viability of a deck. I'm sure many pros have tested Esper brews before, and for whatever reason, they always gravitate back to UWR.
You've already stated the reason. Mana issues. In addition to the mana issues, you get more counterburn/tempo style of gameplay which is more becoming in this format, I think.
Yeah I can see that. But I still think Esper can be a viable deck if they get their allied fetches sometime down the road. It might be weak versus UWR, but it might have an edge against other decks.
Esper also seems pretty weak against Pod.
Yeah, I agree. Not having access to Anger is pretty big. I suppose against a deck like Pod, Esper would just try to stall in order to resolve a Hallowed Burial or keep the deck off its ladder using Shadow of Doubts.
It just depends on how much removal and wrath esper plays. You can build your deck to be good against pod. 1 advantage esper gets (and black based control in general) is thoughseize as it is a card that is good against both combo and aggro and control. You can put infinte wraths and spot removal in your deck, but then you lose to combo. You can put infinite counters in your deck and then lose to aggro. Its a mix that allows it to operate. counters spot removal and spot discard can allow an esper deck to work.
If you took the U/B black list, added some white cards to get Path's, Supreme Verdicts/hallowed burial, Sphinx Rev's over disfigures, damnation, teachings. You'd have an esper deck that doesn't straight lose to pod. Path is worse against birds, but Path is better against bigger threats compared to disfigure.
Don't get me wrong, I understand that exile is important against the graveyard decks, against gearhulk, etc. But is it any worth making Ceremonious Rejection worse against you?
Doubling Season
How do these cards interact?
I assume I will get two dragons, but then how does the card work when the dragons die.
The first one dies, Tatsumasa, the sword comes back.
When the next dragon dies, the sword comes back? so if the sword isn't on the field (like it is O-ring'ed or shattered) does it come back, or is it considered a new object?
I don't understand this argument at all?
Its a bad option because its a trap?
The two scenarios you gave
A)Using it on a bait spell instead of the actual spell they are trying to resolve
B)Using it for its awaken cost, "it opens them up to another potential more powerful spell"
I don't get what you mean by B. Are you saying, you are tapping out to awaken in a counter war and they may resolve something better?
If they are casting a bait spell, why are you more likely to cast this spell?
Let's pretend this didn't have its "trap" cost.
In this scenario, you let the bait spell resolve to save the counter for the non-bait spell.
Why does awakening change this? Because you got greedy? Sounds more like a judgement issue than a card issue
In the second case, I see this just like casting mana leak into 3 open mana. in which I've had counted back (correctly) knowing when to tap low/out and when not to is very important.
If your countering a must answer spell, its on you to make the judgment call if you can "get more value" or not. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can't, but when you can't. since the spell was must answer, I don't see this as an issue. again if you try to go for more value when you shouldn't, greed on the player.
Both cases, the player misplayed, but this doesn't make the card bad, just used wrong.
Also the card is a split card
1UU counter and 4UU counter
Sure, 4UU is "better" but if you have to use it for 1UU, I didn't "waste" the card, I used the card as functioned. I needed a 3 mana counterspell when a 6 mana would not have worked.
And when you can use it as a 6 mana counter spell, you were able to use the same deck slot as a 3 mana counterspell during deck construction. In what world is this ever bad?
Its not a trap, its a very flexible card, but like all cards with lots of options are harder to use.
And as for earlier when you said Control players "Don't want to use their lands as creatures" - This is like the exact opposite. Now in my control deck I can play 28 lands and not have to be worried about flooding out. Late game I can make my lands into win cons. I need to have less dedicated slots to win cons (or just have none at all) relying only on awaken cards. This is INSANE. Why are the man lands great? because they dont use up spell slots and can still kill opponents.Where is the upside? Deck construction.
If your using this spell in bad situation because its your "finisher", your using it wrong, or you made your deck wrong (not having back up finishers in the case your opponent never casts spells [though if this is the case, I see no issue]) Worse case, if they aren't casting spells, you can always counter your own spell to get a guy. but I don't see where this is ever going to be an issue
I think I'm valuing the power of silumgar scorn more than you. Temple of silence is the last thing I want to play on T1. I really want a blue land on T1 to make sure I have t2 scorn up for their 3 drop. while the dragon lands dont cast for blue either, they also come into play untapped for T3 counters, or if you are screwed mana wise do cast T2 anticpaites to dig for lands. I know how good scry lands are, but its the color issue, I tried making the deck as blue as possible and splashing the black cards vs being heavy in each color.
2 Dragonlord Ojutai
2 Dragonlord Silumgar
2 Silumgar, the Drifting Death
1 Icefall Regent
Spells:
4 Anticipate
4 Dig Through Time
2 Hero's Downfall
2 Thoughtseize
2 Foul-tongue Invocation
4 Dissolve
4 Silumgar's Scorn
1 Dissipate
1 Dragonlord's Prerogative
1 Drown in Sorrow
1 Ultimate Price
1 Aetherspouts
1 Crux of Fate
4 Temple of Deceit
4 Dismal Backwater
6 Island
2 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
3 Temple of Enlightenment
2 Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1 Crucible of the Spirit Dragon
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgomoth
2 Drown in Sorrow
3 Ultimate Price
1 Virulent Plague
1 Foul-Tongue Invocation
1 Negate
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Perilous Vault
1 Crux of Fate
2 Duress
1 Thoughtseize
This deck has been doing me well, even 4-1 the last PPTQ I played in on MTGO. Traditionally I'm winning G1 due to them having lots of dead cards, losing Game 2 as your on the draw, and then winning Game 3 because your on the play.
People keep saying I have a bad Red Matchup, but I keep winning that with the above outcome.
Against the midrange decks, It comes down to if they can land a threat that requires 2 answers (rablemaster/Xenegos) before your counters are turned on.
Against control they are either not playing dragons, so you just have better counterspells and an uncounterable draw spell, or your playing the mirror, and I find they normally have more removal, or they are only playing hexproof silumgar, in which case we both end up in a board stall and it is a decking battle, or the main deck foul-tounges are finding the answer.
Against slower control deck such as Abzan and the Mirror, it basically comes down to who has more hand disruption.
I think this is what happens:
Defender of the order is a face down 2/2
Lightning Axe targets the 2/2
The 2/2 stays face down because targeting by itself does not flip the creature face up
Lightning Axes attempts to resolve,
so 5 damage is going to resolve,
This causes the Defender of the order to flip face up.
This causes the triggered ability to go on the stack.
Here is where I get lost, what happens next?
Since lightning Axe is in the middle of resolving, does it finish doing damage (assigning 5 to the defender), and then when the defender of the order triggered ability on the stack, state-based actions are checked to see that lethal damage was dealt, and the defender is put in the graveyard from play, and then the ability resolves
OR
Does lightning axe back up its resolving so that the stack is
[top]
defender of the ages triggered ability
Lightning Axe
[bottom]
Such that when lightning axe resolves, defender is a 2/6 and survives with 5 damage on it?
I want to say its the first outcome (just like how abilities prime to go on the stack during a spells resolution), but I'm not 100% sure on how a replacement effect to damage on a damage resolution would/if at all change this.
Thanks
And then Ixidron turns it face down, it is a flipped face down creature?
in which case if my opponent break opens it, which mode is the the card in?
I have 9 cards in hand.
We go to clean up step.
Do I discard 1 card, trigger goes on the stack, resolve trigger. discard a card, trigger goes on the stack, resolve trigger.
Or do I discard two cards down to 7, both triggers go on the stack, and then attempt to resolve both triggers?
Mind Bend
If my opponent has a Valakut in play with 5 mountains and then plays a 6th mountain. With the trigger ability on the stack, I mind Bend Valakut from mountain to swamp.
does the triggered ability still check for mountain on it's intervening if clause?
Aka
Valakut checks for islands, Triggered Ability checks for Mountain
Or
By changing the source of the ability to swamp, the ability also changes to island on recheck?
Thanks,
Antmant
Mind Bend
Hi, I have some questions about the above two cards. I think the answer is a layers question and a time stamp, but I'm not 100% sure.
What are Non-Basic Lands in the following Scenarios?
1)Blood Moon on field. Mind Bend, changing Mountain to Island?
Keeping it Simple, They are all Islands, correct?
2) Blood Moon #1 on Field. Blood Moon #2 on the Field (#2 came in after #1)
What Happens If you Mind Bend #1 to island? Does Time Stamp 1 say Islands, Timestamp 2 say mountains and timestamp 2 is later, so they are mountains?
What Happens If you Mind Bend #2 to island? Does Time Stamp 1 say Mountain, Timestamp 2 say Island and timestamp 2 is later, so they are Islands?
Does Casting Mind Bend on either blood moon change its timestamp to latest timestamp, so it doesn't matter which one you target, they are all islands?
Thanks
It just depends on how much removal and wrath esper plays. You can build your deck to be good against pod. 1 advantage esper gets (and black based control in general) is thoughseize as it is a card that is good against both combo and aggro and control. You can put infinte wraths and spot removal in your deck, but then you lose to combo. You can put infinite counters in your deck and then lose to aggro. Its a mix that allows it to operate. counters spot removal and spot discard can allow an esper deck to work.
If you took the U/B black list, added some white cards to get Path's, Supreme Verdicts/hallowed burial, Sphinx Rev's over disfigures, damnation, teachings. You'd have an esper deck that doesn't straight lose to pod. Path is worse against birds, but Path is better against bigger threats compared to disfigure.