As someone who also has an artifact theme cube myself, I guess I can chime in with black suggestions.
My black themes are based heavily around sacrificing things, as I've found that's one of the more interesting and fun to play themes within black (I've seen it pushed in other cubes as well). I have no idea if it's powerful enough, but my own cube seems to have solid representation from black due to the fact that it gets some powerful & interesting artifact theme cards and just a bunch of generically powerful removal. Drawing from my own cube, here's some suggestions:
Sacrifice enablers are things like: Carrion Feeder (aggro), Priest of Yawgmoth (ramp), Syndicate Trafficker (aggro), Fleshbag Marauder (control), Shadowborn Demon (control), Gate to Phyrexia, and if you want to go really heavy, Smothering Abomination.
To make sacrifice themes work, you need recursion. Helpfully, artifacts are good at recursion: Bloodghast, Skeleton Shard, and Ovalchase Daredevil all come back from the dead indefinitely.
To help sacrifice more, you can also use things like Sly Requisitioner, Pawn of Ulamog, and Smothering Abomination to keep generating cards/dudes to sacrifice.
And for sacrificing payoffs... Skirsdag High Priest, Moriok Rigger, Disciple of the Vault, and Blood Artist love it when you sacrifice things for cheap.
It helps when your themes play into other colors; because I'm based on the Antiquities set specifically I use cards like Argivian Archaeologist and Orcish Mechanics to support the theme in other colors (white resurrects, black sacrifices creatures, and red sacrifices artifacts) but you can easily find sacrifice outlets and engine cards in other colors, whether it's Metallic Mastery/Harness By Force in red or Sun Titan/Auriok Salvagers in white.
I've found it makes the game more interesting than The Rock (efficient green beaters and cheap black removal... which I'll admit is my BG theme) but it also has the potential to do really powerful things like jam early Sundering Titans or Greater Gargadons, swarm the board with white metalcraft guys backed up by Painsmith and Disciple of the Vault, or generate long engines where you overwhelm your opponent with Trading Post, Skeleton Shard, and Unwinding Clock.
Also, I know you're Mirran themed, but oh man is Praetor's Grasp cool in an artifact cube.
You could get them for 7 bucks all the way from october-January.
That's only online. You have to click the little "Paper" tab at the top to see the stats of paper Bitterblossoms--in which case they were never below $18
Become-A-Lich
Enchantment
Whenever you would lose life, sacrifice that many permanents instead.
2BB: Return target creature card from any graveyard to the battlefield under your control. It’s a black Zombie in addition to its other types and colors.
Guys, it's just a RW version of Hull Breach. No it won't be played in Standard unless there's some silly combo deck that needs to be hosed, but that's not what it's best for: Limited and Commander. I personally am looking forward to it, as I'm looking forward to every split card from this set!
The fact that it can constantly bring itself back as long as you pay 5 mana into it is too warping for limited. Change the return to hand condition to something else.
Disagree. At first I thought it was just fireball-on-an-enchantment but it's not; it's Flame Rift. Even being able to bring itself back is okay since it can't just sweep their team (I would say Tower of Calamities is far worse than this for limited). It's strong, yes, but not overwhelmingly so.
In fact I was thinking about potential other ways to make this, but the more I think about it the more I think this is the right design for the effect you want.
If you wanted to give it some more hoops, you could make the recursion trigger whenever a spell deals damage to an opponent--that way it can never recur itself but it can also recur for less damage.
So awesome. Simple and flavorful, and I honestly even think it's balanced. MAYBE it needs to cost 1 but I don't think so (since it basically functions like Darksteel Relic in the corresponding deck)
Card #1: Agreed with above. I'd suggest the following for the activated ability:
W, Choose an opponent and remove a poison counter from them: Target creature controlled by the chosen opponent can't attack or block this turn.
That way you're encouraged to go after the people whose creatures you want to be pacifying.
Card #2: Hard to judge, but I think it's legit. Templating needs some work (mostly the land line) but the card's fine.
Card #3: Should be a sorcery. Otherwise it's legit.
Card #4: Maybe it's just my love of Zur, but the fetching ability would be more cool at 3 CMC or less. Also good lord it should be a -2 or at least a -1. The Aura swapping ability is fairly weak though, so I think it should be +2. I think you might be able to get away with making the ultimate -8, but since it's obviously a build-around-me I think it's sufficiently powerful to be an ultimate.
About the symbol; what do you think about a gold version of the colorless symbol (for generic colored mana)? The current symbol is very, very busy and shoves too many colors into its area.
I was going to make a suggestion also about using reminder/rules text to specify that you could only use colored mana... but this suggestion's a clean enough implementation of the idea that I think it will work. Do you use multiple "generic colored mana" in costs that then retain the original color the way it does here? I feel like that could get really complicated really fast.
On an unrelated note, if you still wanted Lasso to be a common, I think it's still a possibility. Mostly I feel like the "can't untap" clause is what makes it an uncommon--if it was just "Equipped creature has 'T: Tap target creature'" it could still probably be a common (it might need an activation cost of 1, but I think it could work without (off of pure theorycrafting)).
Besides, I don't see how the "can't untap" clause fits the flavor anyway. Once you lasso them, they're free to get back up unless they stay entangled (maybe "can't untap if equipped creature is tapped" only worded more cleanly).
Territorial Pangolin needs to have trample and be a 7/6 for the same mana cost.
Seconded. Also, I think the best way to template the ability would be "You can only add green mana to your mana pool." That way it is still restrictive (nongreen sources add nothing) while still being readily grokkable and doesn't cause weird rules confusions. This way it simply restricts what you can do rather than causing weird replacement effects.
As for the others, I'll second the oddity of the Bogle not targeting a creature, but I guess if shroud is a thing in your set then it's okay. The others look super cool (though I'm less thrilled about the tyrranax... then again, he's not designed for me :p)
Just finished running a 6-man draft with this cube this evening, & this time I had the forethought to keep decks intact afterwards so I could look at what got played and write up a post about it!
We had 6 drafters: me and five people who were somewhat familiar with the cube but haven’t drafted it in a while (though to be fair, none of us have done an offline cube draft in months). It went over quite well, and people seemed to be interested despite some of the gimmicks. The general consensus was that it was incredibly difficult to draft because the sheer volume of colorless cards meant it was:
A) Difficult to see which colors were open (I drafted BR control and the players on each side of me both drafted UB control)
B) Difficult to evaluate which cards were the best picks, since there were strictly more options, and for the most part the power level is more flat than a typical set.
Also, green was overlooked at first until the two green players realized that and went nuts utilizing the powerful color that it is.
Deck One: UG Midrange
Artifact Lands? Yes
First Pick? Obelisk of Alara
Feedback? “My biggest mistake was not picking Naturalize as soon as I saw it. Green is really good in this cube!”
Deck Summary: Using bomb cards such as Acquire, Ezuri’s Brigade, Sculpting Steel/Phyrexian Metamorph, this player sought to end the game quickly if his opponent didn’t have an answer. He backed it up with a bunch of aggressive attackers, mostly in green (Citanul Druid is practically Tarmogoyf). He had plenty of answers in the form of Slice in Twain and Duplicant, Lignify and Beast Within, and used the engine of Obelisk of Alara to make sure he ended the game effectively. One time he had three Obelisks out at once!
Deck Two: UB Phyrexian Control
Artifact Lands? No
First Pick? Yawgmoth's Bargain
Feedback? “I got hosed when I realized half the table was drafting black control...”
Deck Summary: In lieu of hard removal, this player Domineered his opponent’s creatures, and locked the rest down with Icy Manipulator and Puppet Strings, backing up his threats with plenty of countermagic and hand disruption. He didn’t get any mana rocks to support his Staff of Domination, but had plenty of Phyrexian card advantage: Phyrexian Arena, Yawgmoth's Will, and Yawgmoth's Bargain. His final win conditions generally came down to Phyrexian Processor and/or Thopter Assembly.
Deck Three: wubRG Welder-Vat
Artifact Lands? Yes
First Pick? Wurmcoil Engine
Feedback? “I will under no circumstances pass Steal Artifact, Naturalize, or Acidic Slime in this cube in the future!”
Deck Summary: Built initially around Goblin Welder/Wurmcoil Engine shenanigans, it turned out to be a solid CIP/dies control deck. Wurmcoil, Acidic Slime, Sanctum Gargoyle, Junk Diver, and Triskelion all shone when tinkered with the Mimic Vat and the Welder, with an additional powerful sac engine coming from Atog. Naturalize and Steal Artifact were far and away the player’s two favorite cards they drafted, however.
Deck Five: BR Utility Artifacts <this was me
Artifact Lands? Yes
First Pick? Mox Opal
Feedback? “Next time I gotta play an aggressive green deck.”
Deck Summary: I played a control build that tried to keep the board in check with Damnation and Volatile Rig while either my Covetous Dragon swooped in for damage (rarely) or I assembled an engine of utility artifacts: Trading Post, Crucible of Worlds, Artifact Lands, Zuran Orb, Furnace Celebration, and sac outlets like Keldon Necropolis. I picked up the Furnace Celebration early and did an okay job building the deck… would have been better if I weren’t flanked by black players! My engine was possible thanks to excellent card advantage from the Crucible as well as Skeleton Shard and Serum Tank.
Deck Six: UB Bombs
Artifact Lands? No
First Pick? I dunno, but probably Thran Dynamo.
Feedback? “My deck didn’t really come out the way I wanted it to, but I got to combo Aphetto Alchemist with Thran Dynamo so that was fun.”
Deck Summary: This deck relied on its three bombs to seal its victory: Darksteel Juggernaut, Pentavus, and Colossus of Sardia. To get them, it used tutors and cheating effects (Master Transmuter, Kuldotha Forgemaster) and slowed the game down dramatically with Tangle Wire, Crystal Shard, and Winter Orb. Most of the fun came from comboing Aphetto Alchemist with Thran Dynamo for excessive mana.
Man, I haven't updated this thread in a while either! Here's the updates from Return to Ravnica and Gatecrash--they were significantly more sizable than with my Antiquities War cube!
Also this cube has gotten rather popular and has been very successful for me here, as it's dynamic enough and powerful enough that people actively want to play it and explore it. Sometimes we tend to end up in the same deck archetypes... but that just encourages players to play it more often!
Haven't been by this thread in a while! Here's my update back from Return to Ravnica: (I didn't do an update for Gatecrash because I didn't see any cards I wanted)
@Juju: The Mishra's Factory I run is the Elspeth vs Tezzeret one, so I never run into art problems. I specifically wanted to use the old art because it was nostalgic to Antiquities while also giving me a way to integrate the story of the Brother's War into the cube. I could have used other art... but that would have been a great deal harder, especially when dealing with such specific Dominarian locations.
@Bone Doc: I actually already included a few of those cards! You probably looked in the wrong place for Academy Ruins (it's in blue) and for Phyrexian Metamorph (it's in Artifacts). I considered the trinkets theme but honestly I feel like it would require too much dedication to small artifacts to be worth it, and I tend not to be fond of most small artifacts. I recognize it as an artifact subtheme, but it's not one I want to run.
If I had infinite resources and time I'd be building EDH decks all the time, because it's far and away the best format to build for (as there are perhaps a small core of staples, but you can build a perfectly legitimate deck without any of them). But as it is, I force myself to devote my time to other things... like my studies. I guess that's important too
But I have a core of EDH decks that stay in my box because each of the generals has a special meaning for me, whether because I'm attached to the character or the deck they pilot. Tsabo Tavoc was one of the first legends I owned and is still one of my all-time favorites, particularly as I'm a story junkie and loved Invasion block (plus her abilities are tailor-made for EDH!). Animar, Soul of Elements pilots a deck I've always wanted and had for a long time (Non-Flamekin Elemental Tribal) that got upgraded to EDH when I realized it was already singleton anyway. Thada Adel, Acquisitor I built when I realized that a monoblue voltron deck was possible (plus I love hating on artifacts!). Gwendlyn Di Corci has always been one of my favorite cards, and when I got my hands on a copy (albeit in Italian) I had to build a copy for her. And Teysa, Orzhov Scion is another favorite character, this time piloting my all-time favorite deck (one I have copies of in multiple formats), that being Orzhov Tokens.
Then I have half-built versions of Savra, Queen of the Golgari and Gisela, Blade of Goldnight because both cards really spoke to me in a multiplayer setting. But I'm not really attached to their cards or decks, so that's why they're only half-built.
My black themes are based heavily around sacrificing things, as I've found that's one of the more interesting and fun to play themes within black (I've seen it pushed in other cubes as well). I have no idea if it's powerful enough, but my own cube seems to have solid representation from black due to the fact that it gets some powerful & interesting artifact theme cards and just a bunch of generically powerful removal. Drawing from my own cube, here's some suggestions:
- Sacrifice enablers are things like: Carrion Feeder (aggro), Priest of Yawgmoth (ramp), Syndicate Trafficker (aggro), Fleshbag Marauder (control), Shadowborn Demon (control), Gate to Phyrexia, and if you want to go really heavy, Smothering Abomination.
- To make sacrifice themes work, you need recursion. Helpfully, artifacts are good at recursion: Bloodghast, Skeleton Shard, and Ovalchase Daredevil all come back from the dead indefinitely.
- To help sacrifice more, you can also use things like Sly Requisitioner, Pawn of Ulamog, and Smothering Abomination to keep generating cards/dudes to sacrifice.
- And for sacrificing payoffs... Skirsdag High Priest, Moriok Rigger, Disciple of the Vault, and Blood Artist love it when you sacrifice things for cheap.
- It helps when your themes play into other colors; because I'm based on the Antiquities set specifically I use cards like Argivian Archaeologist and Orcish Mechanics to support the theme in other colors (white resurrects, black sacrifices creatures, and red sacrifices artifacts) but you can easily find sacrifice outlets and engine cards in other colors, whether it's Metallic Mastery/Harness By Force in red or Sun Titan/Auriok Salvagers in white.
- I've found it makes the game more interesting than The Rock (efficient green beaters and cheap black removal... which I'll admit is my BG theme) but it also has the potential to do really powerful things like jam early Sundering Titans or Greater Gargadons, swarm the board with white metalcraft guys backed up by Painsmith and Disciple of the Vault, or generate long engines where you overwhelm your opponent with Trading Post, Skeleton Shard, and Unwinding Clock.
- Also, I know you're Mirran themed, but oh man is Praetor's Grasp cool in an artifact cube.
Hope that inspires you!That's only online. You have to click the little "Paper" tab at the top to see the stats of paper Bitterblossoms--in which case they were never below $18
Then I guess you saw it right before I did
I'm not convinced this won't be marked up or sold out immediately, so I went ahead & got one. We'll see if I was right!
Become-A-Lich
Enchantment
Whenever you would lose life, sacrifice that many permanents instead.
2BB: Return target creature card from any graveyard to the battlefield under your control. It’s a black Zombie in addition to its other types and colors.
Disagree. At first I thought it was just fireball-on-an-enchantment but it's not; it's Flame Rift. Even being able to bring itself back is okay since it can't just sweep their team (I would say Tower of Calamities is far worse than this for limited). It's strong, yes, but not overwhelmingly so.
In fact I was thinking about potential other ways to make this, but the more I think about it the more I think this is the right design for the effect you want.
If you wanted to give it some more hoops, you could make the recursion trigger whenever a spell deals damage to an opponent--that way it can never recur itself but it can also recur for less damage.
W, Choose an opponent and remove a poison counter from them: Target creature controlled by the chosen opponent can't attack or block this turn.
That way you're encouraged to go after the people whose creatures you want to be pacifying.
Card #2: Hard to judge, but I think it's legit. Templating needs some work (mostly the land line) but the card's fine.
Card #3: Should be a sorcery. Otherwise it's legit.
Card #4: Maybe it's just my love of Zur, but the fetching ability would be more cool at 3 CMC or less. Also good lord it should be a -2 or at least a -1. The Aura swapping ability is fairly weak though, so I think it should be +2. I think you might be able to get away with making the ultimate -8, but since it's obviously a build-around-me I think it's sufficiently powerful to be an ultimate.
I was going to make a suggestion also about using reminder/rules text to specify that you could only use colored mana... but this suggestion's a clean enough implementation of the idea that I think it will work. Do you use multiple "generic colored mana" in costs that then retain the original color the way it does here? I feel like that could get really complicated really fast.
On an unrelated note, if you still wanted Lasso to be a common, I think it's still a possibility. Mostly I feel like the "can't untap" clause is what makes it an uncommon--if it was just "Equipped creature has 'T: Tap target creature'" it could still probably be a common (it might need an activation cost of 1, but I think it could work without (off of pure theorycrafting)).
Besides, I don't see how the "can't untap" clause fits the flavor anyway. Once you lasso them, they're free to get back up unless they stay entangled (maybe "can't untap if equipped creature is tapped" only worded more cleanly).
Seconded. Also, I think the best way to template the ability would be "You can only add green mana to your mana pool." That way it is still restrictive (nongreen sources add nothing) while still being readily grokkable and doesn't cause weird rules confusions. This way it simply restricts what you can do rather than causing weird replacement effects.
As for the others, I'll second the oddity of the Bogle not targeting a creature, but I guess if shroud is a thing in your set then it's okay. The others look super cool (though I'm less thrilled about the tyrranax... then again, he's not designed for me :p)
We had 6 drafters: me and five people who were somewhat familiar with the cube but haven’t drafted it in a while (though to be fair, none of us have done an offline cube draft in months). It went over quite well, and people seemed to be interested despite some of the gimmicks. The general consensus was that it was incredibly difficult to draft because the sheer volume of colorless cards meant it was:
A) Difficult to see which colors were open (I drafted BR control and the players on each side of me both drafted UB control)
B) Difficult to evaluate which cards were the best picks, since there were strictly more options, and for the most part the power level is more flat than a typical set.
Also, green was overlooked at first until the two green players realized that and went nuts utilizing the powerful color that it is.
Deck One: UG Midrange
Artifact Lands? Yes
First Pick? Obelisk of Alara
Feedback? “My biggest mistake was not picking Naturalize as soon as I saw it. Green is really good in this cube!”
Deck Summary: Using bomb cards such as Acquire, Ezuri’s Brigade, Sculpting Steel/Phyrexian Metamorph, this player sought to end the game quickly if his opponent didn’t have an answer. He backed it up with a bunch of aggressive attackers, mostly in green (Citanul Druid is practically Tarmogoyf). He had plenty of answers in the form of Slice in Twain and Duplicant, Lignify and Beast Within, and used the engine of Obelisk of Alara to make sure he ended the game effectively. One time he had three Obelisks out at once!
Deck Two: UB Phyrexian Control
Artifact Lands? No
First Pick? Yawgmoth's Bargain
Feedback? “I got hosed when I realized half the table was drafting black control...”
Deck Summary: In lieu of hard removal, this player Domineered his opponent’s creatures, and locked the rest down with Icy Manipulator and Puppet Strings, backing up his threats with plenty of countermagic and hand disruption. He didn’t get any mana rocks to support his Staff of Domination, but had plenty of Phyrexian card advantage: Phyrexian Arena, Yawgmoth's Will, and Yawgmoth's Bargain. His final win conditions generally came down to Phyrexian Processor and/or Thopter Assembly.
Deck Three: wubRG Welder-Vat
Artifact Lands? Yes
First Pick? Wurmcoil Engine
Feedback? “I will under no circumstances pass Steal Artifact, Naturalize, or Acidic Slime in this cube in the future!”
Deck Summary: Built initially around Goblin Welder/Wurmcoil Engine shenanigans, it turned out to be a solid CIP/dies control deck. Wurmcoil, Acidic Slime, Sanctum Gargoyle, Junk Diver, and Triskelion all shone when tinkered with the Mimic Vat and the Welder, with an additional powerful sac engine coming from Atog. Naturalize and Steal Artifact were far and away the player’s two favorite cards they drafted, however.
Deck Four: WR Burn
Artifact Lands? No
First Pick? I dunno, but probably either Mox Diamond or Hammer of Bogardan
Feedback? “Hammer of Bogardan is REALLY good. Also I keep drafting the same deck with this cube but it’s always fun!”
Deck Summary: Fairly simple, really. Play aggressive creatures, clear the board, burn the face. Support with removal and land destruction.
Deck Five: BR Utility Artifacts <this was me
Artifact Lands? Yes
First Pick? Mox Opal
Feedback? “Next time I gotta play an aggressive green deck.”
Deck Summary: I played a control build that tried to keep the board in check with Damnation and Volatile Rig while either my Covetous Dragon swooped in for damage (rarely) or I assembled an engine of utility artifacts: Trading Post, Crucible of Worlds, Artifact Lands, Zuran Orb, Furnace Celebration, and sac outlets like Keldon Necropolis. I picked up the Furnace Celebration early and did an okay job building the deck… would have been better if I weren’t flanked by black players! My engine was possible thanks to excellent card advantage from the Crucible as well as Skeleton Shard and Serum Tank.
Deck Six: UB Bombs
Artifact Lands? No
First Pick? I dunno, but probably Thran Dynamo.
Feedback? “My deck didn’t really come out the way I wanted it to, but I got to combo Aphetto Alchemist with Thran Dynamo so that was fun.”
Deck Summary: This deck relied on its three bombs to seal its victory: Darksteel Juggernaut, Pentavus, and Colossus of Sardia. To get them, it used tutors and cheating effects (Master Transmuter, Kuldotha Forgemaster) and slowed the game down dramatically with Tangle Wire, Crystal Shard, and Winter Orb. Most of the fun came from comboing Aphetto Alchemist with Thran Dynamo for excessive mana.
Return to Ravnica
Selesnya Guildmage -> Dryad Militant
Wolfbitten Captive -> Jade Mage
Nucklavee -> Nivmagus Elemental
Repeal -> Cyclonic Rift
Golgari Guildmage -> Deathrite Shaman
Bitterblossom -> Pack Rat
Crystal Ball -> Druidic Satchel
Glacial Fortress -> Hallowed Fountain
Dragonskull Summit -> Blood Crypt
Sunpetal Grove -> Temple Garden
Sulfur Falls -> Steam Vents
Woodland Cemetery -> Overgrown Tomb
Wickerbough Elder -> Deadbridge Goliath
Scavenging Ooze -> Sakura-Tribe Elder
Yavimaya Elder -> Nantuko Vigilante
Gatecrash
Hinterland Harbor -> Breeding Pool
Isolated Chapel -> Godless Shrine
Clifftop Retreat -> Sacred Foundry
Rootbound Crag -> Stomping Ground
Drowned Catacomb -> Watery Grave
Gwyllion Hedge-Mage -> Immortal Servitude
Spitemare -> Boros Reckoner
Deadly Allure -> Noxious Hatchling
Thank goodness for better hybrid sections!
Also this cube has gotten rather popular and has been very successful for me here, as it's dynamic enough and powerful enough that people actively want to play it and explore it. Sometimes we tend to end up in the same deck archetypes... but that just encourages players to play it more often!
Return to Ravnica
Ashes to Ashes -> Praetor's Grasp
Everflowing Chalice -> Mox Opal
Juggernaut -> Volatile Rig
@Juju: The Mishra's Factory I run is the Elspeth vs Tezzeret one, so I never run into art problems. I specifically wanted to use the old art because it was nostalgic to Antiquities while also giving me a way to integrate the story of the Brother's War into the cube. I could have used other art... but that would have been a great deal harder, especially when dealing with such specific Dominarian locations.
@Bone Doc: I actually already included a few of those cards! You probably looked in the wrong place for Academy Ruins (it's in blue) and for Phyrexian Metamorph (it's in Artifacts). I considered the trinkets theme but honestly I feel like it would require too much dedication to small artifacts to be worth it, and I tend not to be fond of most small artifacts. I recognize it as an artifact subtheme, but it's not one I want to run.
But I have a core of EDH decks that stay in my box because each of the generals has a special meaning for me, whether because I'm attached to the character or the deck they pilot. Tsabo Tavoc was one of the first legends I owned and is still one of my all-time favorites, particularly as I'm a story junkie and loved Invasion block (plus her abilities are tailor-made for EDH!). Animar, Soul of Elements pilots a deck I've always wanted and had for a long time (Non-Flamekin Elemental Tribal) that got upgraded to EDH when I realized it was already singleton anyway. Thada Adel, Acquisitor I built when I realized that a monoblue voltron deck was possible (plus I love hating on artifacts!). Gwendlyn Di Corci has always been one of my favorite cards, and when I got my hands on a copy (albeit in Italian) I had to build a copy for her. And Teysa, Orzhov Scion is another favorite character, this time piloting my all-time favorite deck (one I have copies of in multiple formats), that being Orzhov Tokens.
Then I have half-built versions of Savra, Queen of the Golgari and Gisela, Blade of Goldnight because both cards really spoke to me in a multiplayer setting. But I'm not really attached to their cards or decks, so that's why they're only half-built.