I don't know... I bet he'd look pretty clear right now if he just gave us the name of one scum. Come on, Hawk.
No, but seriously, I think he seems fairly town right now.
Since I am the person who maneuvered Niv into using his ability, I would say I have already given a scum name. I think that one of the other two players to target Raf, or Raf, is scum.
As for me being pardoned, it was very unexpected and a very townie thing to do. in looking at what happened I would say either the VP ot the Pres pardoned me and if it was the VP it may have been what triggered his being killed. That or something he said. Axe was working on a line of thinking just before he was killed and I'm going to go back and look at it. As I recall there was merit to what he was saying just before he was killed.
Well, my clarified HE7 info isn't as airtight as I thought, which makes me believe he is probably town, not that it matters since he seems to be off the table. So, we definitely have to look elsewhere.
GT has been odd. I'm slowly growing more suspicious of Xyre. And I'm still going to reread CM. I'm leaning town on Kraj, atm. Okay, I'll go reread some now and try to pick a suspect.
I’m thinking that were I in your situation, with your claimed role and I had shot my mouth off like you did and almost got a player lynched based on information that I was too sloppy and lazy to clarify before I shot my mouth off, that I would have long since apologized to the player I had wronged. The reason I said long since is because I would not have been that sloppy and lazy as to not have clarified the information I was going to try to give that players bandwagon a turbo push to lynch him.
I’m thinking I still want answers to the questions I asked you in my last post.
So, you are now saying you might have gotten bad information?
Really?
Is this clarification you are asking for coming from the Mod?
Was it the Mod that gave you bad information?
You know a cynic would say this entire post looks like you trying to come up with a way to get out of admitting that you were caught in a lie.
Since you haven't posted any of this "information" that is so damning to me for everyone else to see and evaluate, I guess we will have to take your word for it that there really is information and that it really is damning of faulty or whatever. Of course you would have to ask me to take the word of someone I know to be a lair on the authenticity of any information or supposed clarification that they come up with so far after the fact.
I also want to know what information it was that you have and thought was 100% proof I was scum.
I’m sure you can understand my reluctance to rely on you telling the truth that there really was any info.
Actually I was wanting to see if you would stick to your story.
Thats why police ask multiple questions twice. poor liars often change their story. your explanation is quite farfetched. i was hoping you'd say something completally different. possibly try to improve your story. apparrently you didn't. still doesn't make sence to me, i was jut hoping you'd slip up
Fair enough.
I hope that you re-reading that post clarified any questions you might have.
GT: I expressed intent to vote Hawkeye as well, in 1555. I am still very confident with that evaluation, and will vote once we have decided we're done with today.
I doubt TFF has any useful information, but Hawkeye's play is textbook argumentative scum.
You doubt that TFF has any useful information? Isn't him having information that tells him I am 100% scum the basis of his case against me? Does this mean you also think that TFF is lying about the information he has?
Tell me Xyre, if you knew for a fact that some one trying to turbo charge the bandwagon against you at a point when you are close to being lynched, and that they were trying to do it by lying about information they have, wouldn't you be a little augmentative?
Points for HE7:
-I've read him as town for most of the game.
-His reaction to a guaranteed lynch seemed like genuine town
-His role name and abilities are confirmed
-His story has been consistent
-His use of abilities could have had pro-town defensive motivations (even if I disagree with some of his choices)
Points Against:
-Lurking
-Not claiming the RB earlier
-Allowing Niv to force several possible town power roles to claim
-Inconsistencies with my own info
Overall, the points for him seem very strong, and most of the points against him are still fairly consistent with his game plan. I'm currently waiting for some clarification on the last point; if no mistakes were made there, HE7 is still 100% scum. Otherwise, I'd be pretty convinced that he is town right now. We should start looking elsewhere in the meantime, eitherway. Of the other two Niv named, I think Xyre is more likely scum, but I don't see any reason we have to limit the search there. I still don't like CM's play, and I'll probably look there again after this is finished.
So, you are now saying you might have gotten bad information?
Really?
Is this clarification you are asking for coming from the Mod?
Was it the Mod that gave you bad information?
You know a cynic would say this entire post looks like you trying to come up with a way to get out of admitting that you were caught in a lie.
Since you haven't posted any of this "information" that is so damning to me for everyone else to see and evaluate, I guess we will have to take your word for it that there really is information and that it really is damning of faulty or whatever. Of course you would have to ask me to take the word of someone I know to be a lair on the authenticity of any information or supposed clarification that they come up with so far after the fact.
When RafK claimed to have been RBKed and iwas asked to target him, why didn't you come out to prevent me from wasting my ability for today?
Niv, I'm not sure I understand this question. Are you asking me the same question as has been asked before, Why did i let you use your ability on Raf? Because if you are asking that, I have already answered that question. A couple of times.
What's that old saying Niv?, if at first you don't suceed, try, try again. I think.
Seems like good adivice right now. Don't you think?
Here is my explaination as to why Ilet you use your ability on Raf. If this does nor answer your question please ask again and maybe rephrase it so I don misunderstand what you want to know.
Also my ability allows the player being protected to decide when to reveal that they are no longer being protected. That is if I don't reveal it, which I might or might not do as the situation dictates and if revealing the information would be in the best interests of the town to be known.
That was what I thought you were trying to do Raf. You did not reveal that you were no longer being role blocked until well after you were let go. The same thing is happening to Niv now. I protected him, but I have not said one way or the other if I have released him. Any scum player who is interested to test if my protection is still in effect will have to be willing to risk possibly wasting their attack. All I can say is according to my role PM there may not be anything in the game that can harm Niv while he is under my protection.
You are spinning this to present it in a negative light.
I have already explained my thinking here. I knew I had used my ability on you at the moment that you would be most likely be targeted for a kill. Yes, I did allow Niv to then use his ability on you because I wanted to see who the other players were that were targeting you at that moment. Obviously, one of those players should have been the scum player I anticipated. Once Niv used his ability and revealed his information I put him under protection.
You may disagree with my thinking, but it is completely academic right now. I have done what I have done and I have explained with perfect honesty why I did it.
To be fair HE, having information and misunderstanding it, thus needing to go back and clarify that information's implication on the game state, isn't contradictory. I still doubt Mr. Unlynchable has obtained information that the rest of us don't have.
That is fair and I do agree with you.
However, TFF did not say he might have information that may show me as being scum. He did not say that he suspected me of being scum. He very clearly stated that he had information that showed me to be scum. That he Knew I was scum. And he was 100% sure I am scum. He used this information to try to speed up my bandwagon and lynch me.
I called him on it and in several posts challenged him that he did not have the information he claimed to have. If he really did not have the information or he was misinterpreting the information he had he should have said so earlier. He also should not have come out with that overly dramatic post which showed just how....... ill-informed he is, or that just got him caught in a scum gambit to get me lynched.
-I need to review. Don't autolynch HE7 yet (feel free to regular lynch him though).
What do you need to review TFF?
I thought you had information that was definitive proof that I am scum. Wasn't that information the reason you posted so definitively that I am scum and tried to push my bandwagon to a rush ending? Wasn't it likely that people would read that you had information that showed me to be scum for sure and just say that he must ahve it so that's good enough for them and they would vote for me? I no not every player will be this easily manipulated but so are.
Okay, that's enough. My original suspicions were correct, but better safe than sorry. I'm now 100% certain HE7 is scum.
I could explain what happened there to cement that fact, but I'd rather not at this point, and I don't think I have to now. -You know I'm town, I know he is scum, that should be good enough for his lynch. Vote Hawkeye- GG though, I read you as town for a long time.
You can sit here and try to convince the town that I'm lying to them if you want, but I'm guessing they are going to trust the confirmed guy's info here.
Anyway, I'm going to sleep; you better be lynched when I wake up. Goodnight scum.
and here you say you have information again as well as saying that the other players are going to believe you over me anyway.
So, I ask you, why do you have to go back and review?
Why did you unvote and backtrack?
Um... I'm unlynchable, btw, in case you forgot. You could hammer yourself now, that'd make things faster.
An unlynchability allows you to lie about another player?
There is always a mechanism in the game to counter an unlynchable player and if the town decides that you are scum I'm sure that counter will be brought to play. If the town thinks that you are simply a town player too arrogant to admit that you are lying about Knowing that I am scum, then you will skate.
Regardless, you will be re-examined after I am lynched. People will question why you stated that you Knew I was scum when I show up to be exactly what I have claimed to be and you are shown to be wrong. They will ask why you posted that you have information that proves I’m scum when I show up to be exactly what I claimed to be. They will look at how you did this when the bandwagon against me was so close to lynching me. They will have to decide whether you were lying or not.
You can sit here and try to convince the town that I'm lying to them if you want, but I'm guessing they are going to trust the confirmed guy's info here.
Anyway, I'm going to sleep; you better be lynched when I wake up. Goodnight scum.
I'm guessing you are right about people following you.
I'm going to be lynched, it will not be the first time.
It will also not be the first time someone like you has been caught this way either.
Umm... I'm not wrong, or lying. Your statements are inconsistent with my info. I won't have to say anything except "You're welcome, town."
Give it up scum, you're caught. Anyone can feel free to finish this off.
You are wrong and you are lying.
When it is shown that you are wrong and lying, the town will have you as a very good lynch target and the reactions of several other players to review.
I am gratified that if I am to be lynched we will profit from it in terms of catching scum.
Okay, that's enough. My original suspicions were correct, but better safe than sorry. I'm now 100% certain HE7 is scum.
I could explain what happened there to cement that fact, but I'd rather not at this point, and I don't think I have to now. -You know I'm town, I know he is scum, that should be good enough for his lynch.
Vote Hawkeye- GG though, I read you as town for a long time.
You are lying.
No, you do not Know I am scum.
I am a town player and every word of my claim and defense has been the truth.
And what will you say when you are shown to be wrong?
You are stating, infactically that you Know I am scum and you are wrong.
You are stating this in a manner designed to make people think you just got some information that confirms something you already know.
This will encourage others to follow your lead and vote for me.
So I ask you again, what will you say when you are shown to be completely wrong?
Really? Interesting. I'm guessing you lurk as scum too, then?
That’s a little obvious don’t you think?
Lurking is a very subjective thing. There are times when circumstances outside the game may force someone to not be able to post as frequently as they might normally. They are not choosing to be inactive but from a game perspective they are. Is that lurking? Or is lurking the act of a player making a conscious decision to not post? My own opinion on this it that only the conscious decision to not post on the part of a player is lurking. I have at some point or another had circumstances outside of the game keep me from posting when I have played a scum player and when I have played a town player. I have also, on occasion, deliberately, lurked as a tactic to win the game when I have played a scum player and when I have played a town player.
As I’m sure most mafia players have.
If someone claimed being hit by your ability, how would the scum have known it was anything more than a RB? -They certainly aren't playing around a RB.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “-They certainly aren't playing around a RB. “
To answer the first part though, they probably would not be able to. It is possible that they would have an ability that would give them that information, but it is unlikely. They would however know that the player was role blocked and effectively a vanilla player until the role block was lifted. This would increase greatly the likelihood of the scum moving their attention to finding other valuable targets.
If the scum tried to kill a player in lock down, how would they have known it wasn't an ability of their target? -And would it have been bad to stop a kill?
The scum are, in most cases, targeting a player for a specific reason. Usually, they target a player because that players role has been revealed. As such they will have a very good idea of what to expect from that player in the way of that players abilities. They would not know for sure that their target did not have kill protection but if they were to target a watcher for example, the chances of that role having kill protection is very low. So, if the scum target a player with a role that is very unlikely to have kill protection and their kill attempt fails, it is logical to assume that the scum will conclude that there was some other protection that foiled their attempt. If the only other known ability targeting their target is that player being role blocked it is likely that they will at least consider the possibility that the role block does more then just block the target from using his ability. It is likely that they will consider and possibly conclude that the role block ability also protects the target. From my own experience it is not unusual for this combination for role block and target protection to exist.
Obviously, from a town players perspective it is a good thing to prevent the scum from killing.
My logic is strong. Having a vanilla probably confirmed niv is pretty useless to the town, and a crappy use of hawkeye's role. Which he was more or less doing to niv and rafk in this game.
No you logic is crappy. I used my ability on Raf and Niv only after they had used their abilities and had rendered themselves vanilla for a short period. I also released them at a point that they would be able to use their abilities and if they had not revealed that they had been released they could have still enjoyed having the scum think that they were locked up and thus the scum would assume that they could not use their abilities. Are you seriously missing how valuable that could be?
I don't see the point, but sure.
Most of my play has been on IRC- 246 games.
As for forum games, I've only played two so far; but, my skills seem to have translated well, as I'm 2-0, with MVP in both games.
Now, can you answer my actually relevant questions?
Thank you for humoring me and yes, I can now answer you.
HE7: Don't answer my last question, but do answer these. And, you might want to be more cooperative this time...
Have you targeted anyone besides Rafk and Niv this game?
No, I have not. As I mentioned earlier, you could have gotten the answer to this by checking if anyone else had recieved a pm with the flavor that Raf and Niv did regarding thier experiences. This would have given you independent comfirmation of what i had been saying. It would have taken a while but there would be good data to have as public knowledge. There is also the chance that, although unlikely, that a scum player might have tried to skew the data.
If no, why did you wait so long to use a protection ability that you seem to be able to turn on and off at will. You didn't see anyone worth protecting? -Were you afraid of accidentally stopping a kill... that seems silly. If you were afraid of your blocking power doing damage, why not block... me, for example? I have no ability to block, why not keep me safe from early kills?
I think this question was pretty much answered in this post.
Wrong.
Day one several things combined to make me decide not to use my ability.
First, I had no reason to believe Niv at the time.
Second, The timing of Niv’s claim and ability use did not give me any opportunity to anticipate that the need to protect him.
Third, and most important, I did not see Niv’s claim and results until after he had already made his post revealing that he had done what he had done.
The most effective time for me to use my ability is when I can reasonably predict that it will be useful. I could protect any player and they would not be able to use their ability. If I protect them only when they are likely to be targeted the chance of being successful is much higher. Also my ability allows the player being protected to decide when to reveal that they are no longer being protected. That is if I don't reveal it, which I might or might not do as the situation dictates and if revealing the information would be in the best interests of the town to be known.
In reviewing my role early on I could tell there should be distinctive flavor involved in the use of my ability. I did not want to have any indication of my ability out there before I had decided on which players to protect and the right situation to be set up for me to use my ability. As I have already described I decided to use my ability ion a manner strategically different then just locking up a player. By keeping my ability hidden and playing as a disinterested lurker I intended to put myself outside of the attention of any scum players looking for hints of power roles. Had I used my ability earlier the scum would have played in a manner that would have taken into consideration that my ability was out there. I would not have nearly as good odds of effectively using my ability as I had decided to do.
Right or wrong that is what I did and why I did it. I think that it will remain to be seen if what I did worked as I intended it to.
I hope that answers your questions. If not ask some more and I will do my best to answer them.
HE7: Don't answer my last question, but do answer these. And, you might want to be more cooperative this time...
Have you targeted anyone besides Rafk and Niv this game?
If no, why did you wait so long to use a protection ability that you seem to be able to turn on and off at will. You didn't see anyone worth protecting? -Were you afraid of accidentally stopping a kill... that seems silly. If you were afraid of your blocking power doing damage, why not block... me, for example? I have no ability to block, why not keep me safe from early kills?
I asked how many games you have played in.
Will you answer that for me or no?
You're known to lurk. I think drawing your attention to it would be good. Thanks.
Im likely going to vote HE7. He shouldve tried to coordinate something with Niv to keep him locked up until occasionally he'll be let out to say...target rafk. For example. Which would be optimal
Instead, he acted like a doc. Or claimed to. Seems too silly.
I'm more curious about the reasoning that went into unprotecting niv.
You're not serious are you? You really can't figure out from what I have already posted why I released Niv?
Look, Fish, don't take this the wrong way, but please tell me how many games of mafia you have played in before I answer you.
Since I am the person who maneuvered Niv into using his ability, I would say I have already given a scum name. I think that one of the other two players to target Raf, or Raf, is scum.
As for me being pardoned, it was very unexpected and a very townie thing to do. in looking at what happened I would say either the VP ot the Pres pardoned me and if it was the VP it may have been what triggered his being killed. That or something he said. Axe was working on a line of thinking just before he was killed and I'm going to go back and look at it. As I recall there was merit to what he was saying just before he was killed.
% that I am scum.
I’m thinking that were I in your situation, with your claimed role and I had shot my mouth off like you did and almost got a player lynched based on information that I was too sloppy and lazy to clarify before I shot my mouth off, that I would have long since apologized to the player I had wronged. The reason I said long since is because I would not have been that sloppy and lazy as to not have clarified the information I was going to try to give that players bandwagon a turbo push to lynch him.
I’m thinking I still want answers to the questions I asked you in my last post.
I also want to know what information it was that you have and thought was 100% proof I was scum.
I’m sure you can understand my reluctance to rely on you telling the truth that there really was any info.
Fair enough.
I hope that you re-reading that post clarified any questions you might have.
You doubt that TFF has any useful information? Isn't him having information that tells him I am 100% scum the basis of his case against me? Does this mean you also think that TFF is lying about the information he has?
Tell me Xyre, if you knew for a fact that some one trying to turbo charge the bandwagon against you at a point when you are close to being lynched, and that they were trying to do it by lying about information they have, wouldn't you be a little augmentative?
So, you are now saying you might have gotten bad information?
Really?
Is this clarification you are asking for coming from the Mod?
Was it the Mod that gave you bad information?
You know a cynic would say this entire post looks like you trying to come up with a way to get out of admitting that you were caught in a lie.
Since you haven't posted any of this "information" that is so damning to me for everyone else to see and evaluate, I guess we will have to take your word for it that there really is information and that it really is damning of faulty or whatever. Of course you would have to ask me to take the word of someone I know to be a lair on the authenticity of any information or supposed clarification that they come up with so far after the fact.
Niv, I'm not sure I understand this question. Are you asking me the same question as has been asked before, Why did i let you use your ability on Raf? Because if you are asking that, I have already answered that question. A couple of times.
What's that old saying Niv?, if at first you don't suceed, try, try again. I think.
Seems like good adivice right now. Don't you think?
Here is my explaination as to why Ilet you use your ability on Raf. If this does nor answer your question please ask again and maybe rephrase it so I don misunderstand what you want to know.
That is fair and I do agree with you.
However, TFF did not say he might have information that may show me as being scum. He did not say that he suspected me of being scum. He very clearly stated that he had information that showed me to be scum. That he Knew I was scum. And he was 100% sure I am scum. He used this information to try to speed up my bandwagon and lynch me.
I called him on it and in several posts challenged him that he did not have the information he claimed to have. If he really did not have the information or he was misinterpreting the information he had he should have said so earlier. He also should not have come out with that overly dramatic post which showed just how....... ill-informed he is, or that just got him caught in a scum gambit to get me lynched.
What do you need to review TFF?
I thought you had information that was definitive proof that I am scum. Wasn't that information the reason you posted so definitively that I am scum and tried to push my bandwagon to a rush ending? Wasn't it likely that people would read that you had information that showed me to be scum for sure and just say that he must ahve it so that's good enough for them and they would vote for me? I no not every player will be this easily manipulated but so are.
that's a pretty strong, definitive statement.
Here you clearly state the you have information that indicates I'm scum.
and here you say you have information again as well as saying that the other players are going to believe you over me anyway.
So, I ask you, why do you have to go back and review?
Why did you unvote and backtrack?
An unlynchability allows you to lie about another player?
There is always a mechanism in the game to counter an unlynchable player and if the town decides that you are scum I'm sure that counter will be brought to play. If the town thinks that you are simply a town player too arrogant to admit that you are lying about Knowing that I am scum, then you will skate.
Regardless, you will be re-examined after I am lynched. People will question why you stated that you Knew I was scum when I show up to be exactly what I have claimed to be and you are shown to be wrong. They will ask why you posted that you have information that proves I’m scum when I show up to be exactly what I claimed to be. They will look at how you did this when the bandwagon against me was so close to lynching me. They will have to decide whether you were lying or not.
I'm guessing you are right about people following you.
I'm going to be lynched, it will not be the first time.
It will also not be the first time someone like you has been caught this way either.
You are wrong and you are lying.
When it is shown that you are wrong and lying, the town will have you as a very good lynch target and the reactions of several other players to review.
I am gratified that if I am to be lynched we will profit from it in terms of catching scum.
No, you do not Know I am scum.
I am a town player and every word of my claim and defense has been the truth.
And what will you say when you are shown to be wrong?
You are stating, infactically that you Know I am scum and you are wrong.
You are stating this in a manner designed to make people think you just got some information that confirms something you already know.
This will encourage others to follow your lead and vote for me.
So I ask you again, what will you say when you are shown to be completely wrong?
Lurking is a very subjective thing. There are times when circumstances outside the game may force someone to not be able to post as frequently as they might normally. They are not choosing to be inactive but from a game perspective they are. Is that lurking? Or is lurking the act of a player making a conscious decision to not post? My own opinion on this it that only the conscious decision to not post on the part of a player is lurking. I have at some point or another had circumstances outside of the game keep me from posting when I have played a scum player and when I have played a town player. I have also, on occasion, deliberately, lurked as a tactic to win the game when I have played a scum player and when I have played a town player.
As I’m sure most mafia players have.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “-They certainly aren't playing around a RB. “
To answer the first part though, they probably would not be able to. It is possible that they would have an ability that would give them that information, but it is unlikely. They would however know that the player was role blocked and effectively a vanilla player until the role block was lifted. This would increase greatly the likelihood of the scum moving their attention to finding other valuable targets.
The scum are, in most cases, targeting a player for a specific reason. Usually, they target a player because that players role has been revealed. As such they will have a very good idea of what to expect from that player in the way of that players abilities. They would not know for sure that their target did not have kill protection but if they were to target a watcher for example, the chances of that role having kill protection is very low. So, if the scum target a player with a role that is very unlikely to have kill protection and their kill attempt fails, it is logical to assume that the scum will conclude that there was some other protection that foiled their attempt. If the only other known ability targeting their target is that player being role blocked it is likely that they will at least consider the possibility that the role block does more then just block the target from using his ability. It is likely that they will consider and possibly conclude that the role block ability also protects the target. From my own experience it is not unusual for this combination for role block and target protection to exist.
Obviously, from a town players perspective it is a good thing to prevent the scum from killing.
I’m confused. Are you saying that hurrying to lynching the guy who can protect you from being scum killed increases the chances of you staying alive?
No you logic is crappy. I used my ability on Raf and Niv only after they had used their abilities and had rendered themselves vanilla for a short period. I also released them at a point that they would be able to use their abilities and if they had not revealed that they had been released they could have still enjoyed having the scum think that they were locked up and thus the scum would assume that they could not use their abilities. Are you seriously missing how valuable that could be?
Thank you for humoring me and yes, I can now answer you.
No, I have not. As I mentioned earlier, you could have gotten the answer to this by checking if anyone else had recieved a pm with the flavor that Raf and Niv did regarding thier experiences. This would have given you independent comfirmation of what i had been saying. It would have taken a while but there would be good data to have as public knowledge. There is also the chance that, although unlikely, that a scum player might have tried to skew the data.
I think this question was pretty much answered in this post.
In reviewing my role early on I could tell there should be distinctive flavor involved in the use of my ability. I did not want to have any indication of my ability out there before I had decided on which players to protect and the right situation to be set up for me to use my ability. As I have already described I decided to use my ability ion a manner strategically different then just locking up a player. By keeping my ability hidden and playing as a disinterested lurker I intended to put myself outside of the attention of any scum players looking for hints of power roles. Had I used my ability earlier the scum would have played in a manner that would have taken into consideration that my ability was out there. I would not have nearly as good odds of effectively using my ability as I had decided to do.
Right or wrong that is what I did and why I did it. I think that it will remain to be seen if what I did worked as I intended it to.
I hope that answers your questions. If not ask some more and I will do my best to answer them.
I asked how many games you have played in.
Will you answer that for me or no?
Loran, what kind of reasoning is this?
You're not serious are you? You really can't figure out from what I have already posted why I released Niv?
Look, Fish, don't take this the wrong way, but please tell me how many games of mafia you have played in before I answer you.