@Topper: I personally think the haste/intimidate package is too cute, plus it takes away a lot of control from this deck. However I'm interested in hearing how it tests.
I think your idea with Delirium Skeins has a lot of merit. That card could completely ruin combo/control, plus against burn it's effectively life-gain. You look like you have enough creatures to make it worthwhile; I wouldn't run it alongside Beast Within.
In other news, I'm fairly sure Journey into Nyx offers almost nothing remotely useful to Living End.
Swarmborn Giant might be useful just as pure fat with a minor drawback, but the slots would probably be better spent on Avalanche Riders. Nyx Weaver is kinda interesting, but inefficient and risks milling cascades. Plus we are all set on 3-drops.
To quote someone from the Rock thread, "The Junk God is junk." If only Pharika, God of Affliction had an ability that was not so underwhelming. Athreos, God of Passage is quite powerful/abusable in general, but I don't think it has a home in Living End because of the splash requirement and lack of immediate impact.
I hope I missed a card and that there actually is something useful for us in Journey into Nyx, but I'm skeptical.
Random Q: If I have a god in the graveyard when I Living End, does the God come into play?
Arashi, the Sky Asunder i never though about using this, certainly fits our theme better since we'd get a 5/5 back from the dead. keep in mind though scion of oona is a card. with arashi your spending 3 mana for 1 damage all creatures, which is less effect than a pyroclasm, or even a volcanic fallout.
My problem with Arashi, the Sky Asunder is not that it's too expensive, but that it has much less utility than Volcanic Fallout. Is the extra body worth it for niche match-ups? The only important cards (off the top of my head) that Arashi hits are:
According to the Read-Me in the Proven forums, these are the criteria of a proven deck. A deck must fulfill at least 2 of these 5 requirements, as well as have a primer that's been updated since the last ban cycle.
Makes up 3%+ of the MTGO metagame over the last 3 months (i.e. has prevalence greater than one standard deviation over average MTGO deck prevalence)
Has 1+ Grand Prix/Pro Tour Top 8 appearance in the last 6 months
Has 3+ Grand Prix/Pro Tour Top 16 appearances in the last 6 months
Makes up 5%+ of the Day 2 metagame at all GPs in the last 6 months (i.e. has prevalence greater than one standard deviation over average day 2 prevalence at GPs)
Makes up 4.50%+ of the Paper Top 8 metagame for events with 100+ players (i.e. has prevalence greater than one standard deviation over average deck prevalence at large paper events)
Based on these requirements, the real reasons why Living End isn't Proven are 1) It hasn't been successful in the past 6 months, and 2) Not many people play Living End.
Being Proven is just bragging rights as far as I'm concerned; Living End is still a competitive contender in the format.
@Slohero: 19 lands is a good number for this deck without SSG, but with him I think you can get away with 18. If 18 feels good to you, cut 1 Avalanche Rider and finish your play set of Beast Within. Leyline of the Void out of the side is a 4-or-none strategy. Leyline is only good if you can land it turn 0, requiring a play set in the sideboard and aggressive mulliganing. If you don't want to make space for more Leylines, I recommend Jund Charm.
@Joe: I personally love my Faerie Macabres, but I could definetely see mainboard Ingot Chewers. Asides from the uses you mentioned, Jund occasionally runs Batterskull, there's always Vedalken Shackles in Faeries, and some decks use the Mirrodin Sword cycle. Chewy is dead versus Storm, Scapeshift, Burn, RU Delver and other stuff.
@thinkr:
1) T2 Fulminator Mage is quite debilitating for every deck except Burn. This deck has a reasonable number if flex spots and Simian Spirit Guide is a popular choice, either for the early Mage or extra gas to double-cascade with. Many people, myself included, prefer other cards like Faerie Macabre and Brindle Boar in the flex spots, but it's all preference.
2) Kessig Wolf-Run rarely wins the game. It is not an effective win condition usually, but it provides utility to the deck without detracting from the deck's primary goal. The card usually doesn't help you, but it almost never hurts you.
3) Hard-casting SSG is almost always a bad idea, but there's an exception to everything.
4) Like I said above, this deck has flex spots. Brindle Boar is a valid mainboard option in some metas, but it's a preference call more than anything else.
As far as comparing Jund Charm and Faerie Macabre is concerned, they simply fill different rolls in this deck. Faerie is an elegant tool against decks that use their graveyard without depending on it. It's used to neutralize Snapcaster Mage, Hellspark Elemental, Lingering Souls, Gifts Ungiven, Arcbound Ravager and other miscellaneous threats. Jund Charm is used against decks that either 1) depend more heavily on their graveyards (such as Storm or Dredgevine), or 2) die to Pyroclasm (like Tempo, Soul Sisters and other aggro decks). A redundant sweeper is great to have because it is often suboptimal to cascade early. I rarely would want to Jund Charm and cascade at the same time; that's not its purpose.
I don't have any experience with Blue Tron. What makes it hard?
See, I don't think he'd be that great. I mean, his plus ability basically does nothing pre-LE. His 0 ability isn't nearly relevant enough to interested me. Garruk Wildspeaker would do similar stuff but better, so I'd sooner test him.
Yeah that's a good point. Garruk Wildspeaker ramps much more consistently and has a more relevant ultimate. Garruk Relentless could also be interesting because it makes wolves and burns out Deathrite Shaman.
Anyone else notice Jund got a new planeswqlker to replace BBE?
Sadly, it's pretty butt in our deck.
Actually, I don't think so. I believe Xenagos, the Reveler has some potential for us. He can spit out a token a turn, either for chump-blocking or pure pressure pre-end. His +1 can help cast double Demonic Dread to overload counter-mana. His ultimate will probably never happen because his +1 isn't worth it without dudes, but if the ultimate goes off than it's like a one-sided Living End for us. Xenagos produces power for this deck both before and after LE, so I think it'd be worthwhile to test him as a 2-of.
In regard to Gods, they are very interesting in that they both survive End and beat face afterwards. However I don't like Purphorus very much because he feels win-more. I think Erebos will be a viable inclusion if:
1) He can be consistently played on T4.
2) He provides either card advantage, land-hate or removal.
3) He doesn't cost too much life.
I've occasionally lurked this thread, and now took another look after spoilers today. My questions:
1) Does this deck want to run 16 combo pieces, or is 11-12 still optimal?
2) Is Thassa, God of the Sea (from Theros) a viable finisher? Devotion could be a problem, but scry 1 per turn is useful for finding combo pieces. Plus, she's hard to kill and impossible to block (if you have 2 mana open).
I'm not too familiar with Delver decks generally, but why isn't Goblin Guide in any of these decks? I feel like he does what this deck wants to do: drop a threat T1 and start clocking. Guide has a faster clock than the aforementioned Stormkirk Noble and also is a better top-deck.
@Joe Hemmann: It feels pretty cool to talk to a pro
Tempo is a rough match-up, end of story. I'd consider putting in the 4th Demonic Dread to wrath a bit more consistently, potentially in addition to Jund Charm.
You also might switch out your fetch-lands to save some life, although that might be too insubstantial of a difference if they're swinging for 6-8. Kitchen Finks may be hard to deal with, but it's value almost entirely depends on how profitably it can block. Against Delver, the best thing you can block is SnapDaddy. Otherwise, Finks is just staring down walls of elemental tokens. I think Spike Feeder and Gnaw to the Bone are better choices because they're more consistent.
This next suggestion might be a bit unusual, but Blunt the Assault might work against tempo (and other non-burn aggro decks). It may cost 4 mana, but you get a timewalk and gain a healthy bit of life, especially against Young Pyromancer and other token decks. Plus, I think a lot of tempo decks would think twice about countering Blunt because they don't want you to Living End the turn after.
The main reason why people use Kessig Wolf-Run is because sometimes it helps and most the time it doesn't hurt. It's not a card that is heavily relied upon at all, but occasionally it can pump up Faerie Macabre for some evasive beats late-game if you're getting stalled or something. It's more of a random tool than a legit plan B.
@protoaddict: I completely missed the fact that your list lacks fetches and shocks. Is the life difference that significant? I don't have fetches in my list for budget reasons, but I run 2 shocks so I can grab any of my colors with Pale Recluse.
Here is the list I used off the top of my head. I can tell you that Simian Unequivocally was the thing that allowed me to win matches. Since playing this I have made some slight tweaks but this was the list.
I have since moved a faerie main deck and cut the Avalanche rider, and dropped 2 faeries in the board for Crypt Incursion. This is by far the best configuration I have ever performed with and the ability to crack a simian in hand and wipe the board as early as turn 2 in response to Giest or splintertwin or Melira is so powerful. People walk right into it all the time.
Barring our disagreement over Simian Spirit Guide, I like your list. I might drop a Ridge Rannet for another Faerie Macabre, but that's also a preference call. I like the Gemstone Mine; I'll probably put some of those in my deck until I can buy fetches. Wispmare is a pretty unusual choice; are enchantments really bothering you? I prefer Krosan Grip in the side because it is more on color and uncounterable, even if the 3-drop spot is already pretty full. Also, find room for 1x Dryad Arbor because you can't landcycle for Forbidden Orchard.
I think your idea with Delirium Skeins has a lot of merit. That card could completely ruin combo/control, plus against burn it's effectively life-gain. You look like you have enough creatures to make it worthwhile; I wouldn't run it alongside Beast Within.
Swarmborn Giant might be useful just as pure fat with a minor drawback, but the slots would probably be better spent on Avalanche Riders.
Nyx Weaver is kinda interesting, but inefficient and risks milling cascades. Plus we are all set on 3-drops.
To quote someone from the Rock thread, "The Junk God is junk." If only Pharika, God of Affliction had an ability that was not so underwhelming.
Athreos, God of Passage is quite powerful/abusable in general, but I don't think it has a home in Living End because of the splash requirement and lack of immediate impact.
I hope I missed a card and that there actually is something useful for us in Journey into Nyx, but I'm skeptical.
Random Q: If I have a god in the graveyard when I Living End, does the God come into play?
My problem with Arashi, the Sky Asunder is not that it's too expensive, but that it has much less utility than Volcanic Fallout. Is the extra body worth it for niche match-ups? The only important cards (off the top of my head) that Arashi hits are:
Delver of Secrets
Aven Mindcensor
Bitterblossom
Lingering Souls
Judge's Familiar
Vendillion Clique
Spellstutter Sprite
Scion of Oona
Volcanic Fallout is a stronger option if you need an uncounterable sweep, but if you only need it for Faeries then Arashi is better.
Makes up 3%+ of the MTGO metagame over the last 3 months (i.e. has prevalence greater than one standard deviation over average MTGO deck prevalence)
Has 1+ Grand Prix/Pro Tour Top 8 appearance in the last 6 months
Has 3+ Grand Prix/Pro Tour Top 16 appearances in the last 6 months
Makes up 5%+ of the Day 2 metagame at all GPs in the last 6 months (i.e. has prevalence greater than one standard deviation over average day 2 prevalence at GPs)
Makes up 4.50%+ of the Paper Top 8 metagame for events with 100+ players (i.e. has prevalence greater than one standard deviation over average deck prevalence at large paper events)
Based on these requirements, the real reasons why Living End isn't Proven are 1) It hasn't been successful in the past 6 months, and 2) Not many people play Living End.
Being Proven is just bragging rights as far as I'm concerned; Living End is still a competitive contender in the format.
EDIT: You may consider Pale Recluse over Twisted Abomination because the spider grabs Dryad Arbor. It's a personal call.
1) T2 Fulminator Mage is quite debilitating for every deck except Burn. This deck has a reasonable number if flex spots and Simian Spirit Guide is a popular choice, either for the early Mage or extra gas to double-cascade with. Many people, myself included, prefer other cards like Faerie Macabre and Brindle Boar in the flex spots, but it's all preference.
2) Kessig Wolf-Run rarely wins the game. It is not an effective win condition usually, but it provides utility to the deck without detracting from the deck's primary goal. The card usually doesn't help you, but it almost never hurts you.
3) Hard-casting SSG is almost always a bad idea, but there's an exception to everything.
4) Like I said above, this deck has flex spots. Brindle Boar is a valid mainboard option in some metas, but it's a preference call more than anything else.
@Joe Hemmann:
I like the idea of Runed Halo because 1) Storm is a historically hard match-up, and 2) It is good in other match-ups as well. You can use it against Grapeshot, Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle and against Murderous Redcap.
As far as comparing Jund Charm and Faerie Macabre is concerned, they simply fill different rolls in this deck. Faerie is an elegant tool against decks that use their graveyard without depending on it. It's used to neutralize Snapcaster Mage, Hellspark Elemental, Lingering Souls, Gifts Ungiven, Arcbound Ravager and other miscellaneous threats. Jund Charm is used against decks that either 1) depend more heavily on their graveyards (such as Storm or Dredgevine), or 2) die to Pyroclasm (like Tempo, Soul Sisters and other aggro decks). A redundant sweeper is great to have because it is often suboptimal to cascade early. I rarely would want to Jund Charm and cascade at the same time; that's not its purpose.
I don't have any experience with Blue Tron. What makes it hard?
Yeah that's a good point. Garruk Wildspeaker ramps much more consistently and has a more relevant ultimate. Garruk Relentless could also be interesting because it makes wolves and burns out Deathrite Shaman.
Actually, I don't think so. I believe Xenagos, the Reveler has some potential for us. He can spit out a token a turn, either for chump-blocking or pure pressure pre-end. His +1 can help cast double Demonic Dread to overload counter-mana. His ultimate will probably never happen because his +1 isn't worth it without dudes, but if the ultimate goes off than it's like a one-sided Living End for us. Xenagos produces power for this deck both before and after LE, so I think it'd be worthwhile to test him as a 2-of.
1) He can be consistently played on T4.
2) He provides either card advantage, land-hate or removal.
3) He doesn't cost too much life.
A viable Erebos would also necessitate Faerie Macabre and/or Twisted Abomination in the mainboard.
1) Does this deck want to run 16 combo pieces, or is 11-12 still optimal?
2) Is Thassa, God of the Sea (from Theros) a viable finisher? Devotion could be a problem, but scry 1 per turn is useful for finding combo pieces. Plus, she's hard to kill and impossible to block (if you have 2 mana open).
Tempo is a rough match-up, end of story. I'd consider putting in the 4th Demonic Dread to wrath a bit more consistently, potentially in addition to Jund Charm.
You also might switch out your fetch-lands to save some life, although that might be too insubstantial of a difference if they're swinging for 6-8. Kitchen Finks may be hard to deal with, but it's value almost entirely depends on how profitably it can block. Against Delver, the best thing you can block is SnapDaddy. Otherwise, Finks is just staring down walls of elemental tokens. I think Spike Feeder and Gnaw to the Bone are better choices because they're more consistent.
This next suggestion might be a bit unusual, but Blunt the Assault might work against tempo (and other non-burn aggro decks). It may cost 4 mana, but you get a timewalk and gain a healthy bit of life, especially against Young Pyromancer and other token decks. Plus, I think a lot of tempo decks would think twice about countering Blunt because they don't want you to Living End the turn after.
@protoaddict: I completely missed the fact that your list lacks fetches and shocks. Is the life difference that significant? I don't have fetches in my list for budget reasons, but I run 2 shocks so I can grab any of my colors with Pale Recluse.
Barring our disagreement over Simian Spirit Guide, I like your list. I might drop a Ridge Rannet for another Faerie Macabre, but that's also a preference call. I like the Gemstone Mine; I'll probably put some of those in my deck until I can buy fetches. Wispmare is a pretty unusual choice; are enchantments really bothering you? I prefer Krosan Grip in the side because it is more on color and uncounterable, even if the 3-drop spot is already pretty full. Also, find room for 1x Dryad Arbor because you can't landcycle for Forbidden Orchard.
@Conburnmadman: Absolutely