Ok, so I spoke to Grapefruit to clarify this. He's confirmed that, for the purposes of the town win condition, if a hostile party is no longer in the game for whatever reason, that counts as "eliminated."
So, that being confirmed, I will agree that the Wisp situation is likely a self-correcting problem, provided we hit Witted mafia and the game is continuing tomorrow. Unvote: LastWhisper, Vote: Anak.
Here I am in the year 2021 laughing my ass off at work because apparently it took you this long to ask that??
Honest to God, I can't make a better case for HR to be scum than this. This entire time he was operating off an assumption, then decided to confirm it four days into the game? Like why? What made him do that now?
What HR needed was an excuse to vote me, because he wants to push through my yeet so they win. Also I'm basically the only one calling HR scum at the moment, so he's also trying to head that off at the same time.
Vote: HR
Here's another fun question, does anyone know what HR thinks about players not named Snake or Wisp? Probably not much, and then ask yourself is that normal for town at this point in the game?
@Wisp Yeah I guess my reads list is a little bit shallow but quite frankly without a scum flip it's hard to get super solid scum reads. Interaction analysis between scummates is one of the best ways to find scum, and we haven't had the chance to do that yet.
@KJ I agree that Tubba and HR are probably not scum together, is that what you meant by your last post about them?
All I can really say is sorry guys, I made some assumptions about my role that I shouldn't have. After the last confirming with GF I just basically have lost anything I had for this game, because I know I should be the yeet today and I know what's gonna happen.
This is something a town player just plain doesn't say at this point in the game, sorry.
(OoG: not trying to dismiss your emotions, Anak, which I believe are real regardless of your alignment. It's just a game at the end of the day )
@Sloth Delivered on a silver platter a bad town I guess. The question I would pose to you is, what about that contradiction comes from scum? I can't really deny any of the facts you laid out, but try to show the mindset there isn't scum.
I talked about the scum mindset in the contradiction and your behavior on #3756.
You know I have a lot of vitality, since Wisp didn't kill me last night, I hope that's not up for debate.
I mean, I really wouldn't speculate to how much vit scum has but it does seem ~presumable that at least one or two of them would have a fair amount of it.
Do you think I wasn't giving Az vitality? I could actually confirm this tonight, I lied about one other small thing. I actually have 2 vitality left not 1, I actually started with 6. I faked that in case a singe-vit ability was sent my way, and there wasn't really a downside to doing so.
All this to say, I could target you Sloth (or anyone the town chooses), and tonight you would get a vitality from me and I wouldn't actually die tonight, barring Wisp of course. "But Anak we don't have time, its MyLo/LyLo probably, all scum need is 1 night" yeah I know, but its really all I can do.
...how could you forget that you just said, not too long ago, that you can't target other people with your ability?
(Again, I don't mean to sound hurtful and I hope it's not coming across that way, I'm just scumhunting and you really do seem scum, buddy.)
I could forget because I was playing pretty much entirely on emotion there and not logic when posting that. Also just having it wrong for so long I just defaulted back to that. Obviously not great lol
Yeah I agree that its likely 1 of the scum has a good chunk of vitality that could tank that hit from Wisp, what I'm pointing out is that for your logic to work I basically have to be exactly that role, while also having The Wit. It's a pretty precise set of circumstances that you are trying to fit my role into, while it makes a lot more sense to be town.
Also if you think there are things that town players don't say at a point in the game, then by golly you haven't read many games I am in. I usually find the wrong things to say at the wrong times, probably the thing that I am the best at
You don't sound hurtful, and I can see that you are just genuinely scum hunting. Again looking objectively, I would be voting for me because realistically you can't really let someone live that's contradicted themselves about their role like I did. So playing bad like that made me super frustrated, then others talked about me basically always being a wet noodle as that happened just kind of coalesced together and made the game a ball of frustration that I was just better off ignoring for a while.
@Wisp I hope you don't really think I played or tried anything dirty, I may be bad but I (don't think) I have ever done anything untowards. The mistakes this game were all mine, not the mods in any way.
Now, all that aside, time to try and convince you all not to yeet me today. Simple enough right?
@KJ Sorry needed to get a chance back at the computer to type up a reads-list, I knew you were looking for it but trying on mobile wasn't gonna end well.
Tammy - Lock Town, if shes scum then happy to lose to her, nothing about what she has said or done or how she has said anything has felt scummy at all.
KJ - Pretty confident town, asks good questions, mindset is consistent. Pokes at people in meaningful ways that is actually trying to gather information, and not just for show.
Vaimes - Lean townish? Fine enough I guess, hasn't done a ton as the game has progressed, some decent scumhunting at times but not as much as others. Possible deep wolf, but not at the point where ever consider voting him.
Sloth - Lean Town, didn't get a ton early game but the last couple days has really done some solid scumhunting. Don't see the mindset coming from scum, also probably lose if scum since just never see myself wanting to yeet them.
HR - Scum, sorry I just don't buy it, and I know what other's have said about meta and all that. I really think most people's PoE's are so weird because they aren't including HR, and I would challenge you to do so. This game isn't easy, the PoE isn't gonna be the easy candidates either at this point.
Tubba - Lean scum, when asked for a PoE just tosses out Cuth and I and then doesn't really know from there. Reads to me more that they didn't know who to pick, so started with the 2 easiest targets and just kind of made the rest up. D2 is still pretty suspect as well. Also their role of passing Wits between players seems like a good way to sabotage players (this is admittedly the smallest point against them, but it just feels like a scum ability to me)
Bessie - Neutral and trending down, had townish for a while based on how they came out and went at Tammy, didn't really expect scum to start off that way. Haven't seen much since then though that really did anything for me, and scumread me for reasons that didn't feel super legitimate in regards to Az. Role is an easy one to fake too.
Boom - Slight town, role seems pretty town as much as that can be trusted. I agree with pretty much all their thoughts on Wisp today, so that's inclining me towards towning them as well. Looks to me like they ask a lot of questions that they don't follow up with often, gives them a shallow fake kind of feel.
Wisp - 3rder, any real discussion of being Mafia is asinine. If Wisp is Mafia here then he is far better than I remember him being (and I remember him being a pretty good player).
Cuth - ???, is weird accurate? Think so, and I don't like weird. Crumbing a role is neat and all, harping on that doesn't do much to help themselves. I also feel like I'm forgetting all of their claimed night actions. Person I need to read the most up on tonight, could go either way right now.
Bur - Lean Town, hasn't done a whole lot but also hasn't done anything really wrong either. Few fine questions and pokes, but honestly they might be the one person where the role is enough to put at town for now.
So trying to make a PoE out of that for now would lead me to something like
HR/Tubba/Cuth/Bessie or Boom
That's not really a PoE I love though. Seems too easy at this stage of the game honestly.... hmpf food for thought here, need to look at the wagons after dinner here and see if those people make sense.
(Bonus spicy "We Are Screwed PoE" of something like HR/Vaimes/Bur/Sloth is sitting in the back of my mind, which feels much more like a team that could have led us to this point in the game than the one above.)
Please ask about anything above that anyone wants more details on, not going too in depth at the moment since trying to make sure I can finish this post and get it out without making others wait longer.
*****! Sorry you're correct I can't Wit again, I just can not keep this role straight. If someone else Witted me then I would give them a vitality each night but I myself am out of shots
What I get for trying to find ways to prove myself I guess.
But we should be treating this like mylo, and trying to find a wolf, and not defaulting to me
I'm not trying to speak for KJ (he can correct me) but given that he said I was the one to make him realize we are likely in MyLo, I'm assuming he was talking about P#3749, where I point out that the only surefire way to avoid a loss is by safely yeeting you out. Or at least getting you out by yeeting a witted.
This is why I was championing your yeet to begin with. Anak's an acceptable switch because he outted himself and he's witted. If not for that, I'd still just yeet you for safety, I think?
@ALL Speaking of Anak, can I get more votes on him? I'm not saying we should be ending the Day now, but I'm honestly disconcerted that I have literally delivered him to you all in silver platter yet the only one that has followed me on him is the 3rder to whom Anak's flip is irrelevant to victory.
If you are not voting him, I would at least like to hear why? Seriously.
Also where is Anak anyway?
All I can really say is sorry guys, I made some assumptions about my role that I shouldn't have. After the last confirming with GF I just basically have lost anything I had for this game, because I know I should be the yeet today and I know what's gonna happen.
Like there's nothing I can really say or do that's going to change that, and then people going through me being a wet noodle at the same time as I realizing that I ****ed up with how I thought my role worked just sucked all the fun out of the game. If its any consolation its likely the last game I play for a long while, so you all won't have to worry about me like this again.
@Sloth Delivered on a silver platter a bad town I guess. The question I would pose to you is, what about that contradiction comes from scum? I can't really deny any of the facts you laid out, but try to show the mindset there isn't scum.
You know I have a lot of vitality, since Wisp didn't kill me last night, I hope that's not up for debate. So we all know that part is at least true. Is it just that you think my role is actually a scum vitality giver? Bit odd because why wouldn't I target a scumbuddy and power them up.
Do you think I wasn't giving Az vitality? I could actually confirm this tonight, I lied about one other small thing. I actually have 2 vitality left not 1, I actually started with 6. I faked that in case a singe-vit ability was sent my way, and there wasn't really a downside to doing so.
All this to say, I could target you Sloth (or anyone the town chooses), and tonight you would get a vitality from me and I wouldn't actually die tonight, barring Wisp of course. "But Anak we don't have time, its MyLo/LyLo probably, all scum need is 1 night" yeah I know, but its really all I can do.
Sorry for costing us all the game most likely, it was a hard one but I definitely didn't help that.
Quick post before bed, will have more time the rest of this weekend.
What makes no sense at all is that anyone who thinks I'm somehow scum should just be more than happy to yeet anyone else and let Wisp kill me tonight. Would take out a scum and let Wisp go.
I can't answer why Az never confirmed my ability, but he didn't. He did though also say that I was being set up to take the fall once he flipped town, which he did, and others are indeed pushing that direction. Just saying.
Too many posts too fast, hard to follow on mobile. Thanks again KJ.
I have Wit, my Wit is permanent and unbreakable. Each night, a vitality is drained from me and given to my Wit partner. I'm also Sealed and unable to use The Skill. I currently have 1 vitality.
I can survive as a vanilla town just fine, if I have no partner I lose no vitality.
A post doesn't have to be meaningful or accomplish anything tangible, but a post within the last stretch of hours in a day is far more likely to try and accomplish something than a full week out.
And it did do something, it further distanced Cuth from the misyeet. So it's not that it did nothing, it's that what it did was scummy
Whether scum!Cuth accomplished something is not relevant to your argument, which was that town!Cuth would be trying to accomplish something with his post. I disagree with that premise, but that's not what we're talking about.
Even if we accept that "a post within the last stretch of hours in a day is far more likely to try and accomplish something than a full week out." as being true, that doesn't mean that that post was meant to accomplish anything. You're trying to say that he made a post that should have been trying to accomplish something, but didn't, which is another premise I disagree with.
If we assume you made the argument that "scum!Cuth is trying to distance from the misYeet", then that's fine... but it's not more likely than town!Cuth just disagreeing with the wagon. I don't think that you can point to scum or town based on that argument.
Re: Wit: Can you establish another Wit now that Az is dead? Is your Wit being unbreakable and permanent different than the norm, meaning are other Wits breakable or temporary? Also remind me why and when you Witted Az in the first place.
Iso Witted Az on Day 1, not I. I don't actually know exactly when Iso did it, but early Day 1 somewhere.
Yes I theoretically could Wit someone else with Az gone now, but doing that would start draining a vitality each night. I'm not precisely sure how others Wits work, I just know how mine works because it's rather important to me living to understand it.
Could you Wit someone else? You know this for sure?
After confirming with GF I can not Wit another person. However others can Wit me, and I would then give them 1 vitality each night. And the vitality drain is not optional and would kill me.
It's all about timing. It's right about when things are getting to the point of no return, and it's the token scum who knows the flip is town and wants to distance it from themselves.
Like look at that post as town, what does it accomplish? ***** all that's what. Cuth doesn't mention any reason why there, doesn't nominate another person, doesn't even toss a vote because they don't want attention.
Town there is literally better off posting nothing than what Cuth did.
Why would it have to accomplish anything tangible? Why could it not just be as simple as him saying "I don't agree with this wagon"?
Also, clarify your role for me. You have Wit, and as long as you're Witted with someone, you gain a Vitality per Night. Every Night regardless, you lose one Vitality. Is that correct?
@Anak
Too many posts too fast, hard to follow on mobile. Thanks again KJ.
I have Wit, my Wit is permanent and unbreakable. Each night, a vitality is drained from me and given to my Wit partner. I'm also Sealed and unable to use The Skill. I currently have 1 vitality.
I can survive as a vanilla town just fine, if I have no partner I lose no vitality.
A post doesn't have to be meaningful or accomplish anything tangible, but a post within the last stretch of hours in a day is far more likely to try and accomplish something than a full week out.
And it did do something, it further distanced Cuth from the misyeet. So it's not that it did nothing, it's that what it did was scummy
Whether scum!Cuth accomplished something is not relevant to your argument, which was that town!Cuth would be trying to accomplish something with his post. I disagree with that premise, but that's not what we're talking about.
Even if we accept that "a post within the last stretch of hours in a day is far more likely to try and accomplish something than a full week out." as being true, that doesn't mean that that post was meant to accomplish anything. You're trying to say that he made a post that should have been trying to accomplish something, but didn't, which is another premise I disagree with.
If we assume you made the argument that "scum!Cuth is trying to distance from the misYeet", then that's fine... but it's not more likely than town!Cuth just disagreeing with the wagon. I don't think that you can point to scum or town based on that argument.
Re: Wit: Can you establish another Wit now that Az is dead? Is your Wit being unbreakable and permanent different than the norm, meaning are other Wits breakable or temporary? Also remind me why and when you Witted Az in the first place.
Iso Witted Az on Day 1, not I. I don't actually know exactly when Iso did it, but early Day 1 somewhere.
Yes I theoretically could Wit someone else with Az gone now, but doing that would start draining a vitality each night. I'm not precisely sure how others Wits work, I just know how mine works because it's rather important to me living to understand it.
Will make it feel like less of a blind vote for people hopefully
Nah no hard feelings
I don't disagree there
Best of luck everyone!
Honest to God, I can't make a better case for HR to be scum than this. This entire time he was operating off an assumption, then decided to confirm it four days into the game? Like why? What made him do that now?
What HR needed was an excuse to vote me, because he wants to push through my yeet so they win. Also I'm basically the only one calling HR scum at the moment, so he's also trying to head that off at the same time.
Vote: HR
Here's another fun question, does anyone know what HR thinks about players not named Snake or Wisp? Probably not much, and then ask yourself is that normal for town at this point in the game?
@Wisp Yeah I guess my reads list is a little bit shallow but quite frankly without a scum flip it's hard to get super solid scum reads. Interaction analysis between scummates is one of the best ways to find scum, and we haven't had the chance to do that yet.
@KJ I agree that Tubba and HR are probably not scum together, is that what you meant by your last post about them?
I could forget because I was playing pretty much entirely on emotion there and not logic when posting that. Also just having it wrong for so long I just defaulted back to that. Obviously not great lol
Yeah I agree that its likely 1 of the scum has a good chunk of vitality that could tank that hit from Wisp, what I'm pointing out is that for your logic to work I basically have to be exactly that role, while also having The Wit. It's a pretty precise set of circumstances that you are trying to fit my role into, while it makes a lot more sense to be town.
Also if you think there are things that town players don't say at a point in the game, then by golly you haven't read many games I am in. I usually find the wrong things to say at the wrong times, probably the thing that I am the best at
You don't sound hurtful, and I can see that you are just genuinely scum hunting. Again looking objectively, I would be voting for me because realistically you can't really let someone live that's contradicted themselves about their role like I did. So playing bad like that made me super frustrated, then others talked about me basically always being a wet noodle as that happened just kind of coalesced together and made the game a ball of frustration that I was just better off ignoring for a while.
@Wisp I hope you don't really think I played or tried anything dirty, I may be bad but I (don't think) I have ever done anything untowards. The mistakes this game were all mine, not the mods in any way.
Now, all that aside, time to try and convince you all not to yeet me today. Simple enough right?
@KJ Sorry needed to get a chance back at the computer to type up a reads-list, I knew you were looking for it but trying on mobile wasn't gonna end well.
Tammy - Lock Town, if shes scum then happy to lose to her, nothing about what she has said or done or how she has said anything has felt scummy at all.
KJ - Pretty confident town, asks good questions, mindset is consistent. Pokes at people in meaningful ways that is actually trying to gather information, and not just for show.
Vaimes - Lean townish? Fine enough I guess, hasn't done a ton as the game has progressed, some decent scumhunting at times but not as much as others. Possible deep wolf, but not at the point where ever consider voting him.
Sloth - Lean Town, didn't get a ton early game but the last couple days has really done some solid scumhunting. Don't see the mindset coming from scum, also probably lose if scum since just never see myself wanting to yeet them.
HR - Scum, sorry I just don't buy it, and I know what other's have said about meta and all that. I really think most people's PoE's are so weird because they aren't including HR, and I would challenge you to do so. This game isn't easy, the PoE isn't gonna be the easy candidates either at this point.
Tubba - Lean scum, when asked for a PoE just tosses out Cuth and I and then doesn't really know from there. Reads to me more that they didn't know who to pick, so started with the 2 easiest targets and just kind of made the rest up. D2 is still pretty suspect as well. Also their role of passing Wits between players seems like a good way to sabotage players (this is admittedly the smallest point against them, but it just feels like a scum ability to me)
Bessie - Neutral and trending down, had townish for a while based on how they came out and went at Tammy, didn't really expect scum to start off that way. Haven't seen much since then though that really did anything for me, and scumread me for reasons that didn't feel super legitimate in regards to Az. Role is an easy one to fake too.
Boom - Slight town, role seems pretty town as much as that can be trusted. I agree with pretty much all their thoughts on Wisp today, so that's inclining me towards towning them as well. Looks to me like they ask a lot of questions that they don't follow up with often, gives them a shallow fake kind of feel.
Wisp - 3rder, any real discussion of being Mafia is asinine. If Wisp is Mafia here then he is far better than I remember him being (and I remember him being a pretty good player).
Cuth - ???, is weird accurate? Think so, and I don't like weird. Crumbing a role is neat and all, harping on that doesn't do much to help themselves. I also feel like I'm forgetting all of their claimed night actions. Person I need to read the most up on tonight, could go either way right now.
Bur - Lean Town, hasn't done a whole lot but also hasn't done anything really wrong either. Few fine questions and pokes, but honestly they might be the one person where the role is enough to put at town for now.
So trying to make a PoE out of that for now would lead me to something like
HR/Tubba/Cuth/Bessie or Boom
That's not really a PoE I love though. Seems too easy at this stage of the game honestly.... hmpf food for thought here, need to look at the wagons after dinner here and see if those people make sense.
(Bonus spicy "We Are Screwed PoE" of something like HR/Vaimes/Bur/Sloth is sitting in the back of my mind, which feels much more like a team that could have led us to this point in the game than the one above.)
Please ask about anything above that anyone wants more details on, not going too in depth at the moment since trying to make sure I can finish this post and get it out without making others wait longer.
What I get for trying to find ways to prove myself I guess.
All I can really say is sorry guys, I made some assumptions about my role that I shouldn't have. After the last confirming with GF I just basically have lost anything I had for this game, because I know I should be the yeet today and I know what's gonna happen.
Like there's nothing I can really say or do that's going to change that, and then people going through me being a wet noodle at the same time as I realizing that I ****ed up with how I thought my role worked just sucked all the fun out of the game. If its any consolation its likely the last game I play for a long while, so you all won't have to worry about me like this again.
@Sloth Delivered on a silver platter a bad town I guess. The question I would pose to you is, what about that contradiction comes from scum? I can't really deny any of the facts you laid out, but try to show the mindset there isn't scum.
You know I have a lot of vitality, since Wisp didn't kill me last night, I hope that's not up for debate. So we all know that part is at least true. Is it just that you think my role is actually a scum vitality giver? Bit odd because why wouldn't I target a scumbuddy and power them up.
Do you think I wasn't giving Az vitality? I could actually confirm this tonight, I lied about one other small thing. I actually have 2 vitality left not 1, I actually started with 6. I faked that in case a singe-vit ability was sent my way, and there wasn't really a downside to doing so.
All this to say, I could target you Sloth (or anyone the town chooses), and tonight you would get a vitality from me and I wouldn't actually die tonight, barring Wisp of course. "But Anak we don't have time, its MyLo/LyLo probably, all scum need is 1 night" yeah I know, but its really all I can do.
Sorry for costing us all the game most likely, it was a hard one but I definitely didn't help that.
Not going to delve into why I thought he would, would stray too close to quoting PMs that I'm not comfortable discussing that.
Apologies for misleading everyone, I had it wrong myself all game too
☹️
Reading things through, will be around later for posting or, how did Wisp call it real-timeing? If anyone else is
The fact that Bessie didn't point it out but instead omgus votes someone is pretty damning, not gonna lie
What makes no sense at all is that anyone who thinks I'm somehow scum should just be more than happy to yeet anyone else and let Wisp kill me tonight. Would take out a scum and let Wisp go.
I can't answer why Az never confirmed my ability, but he didn't. He did though also say that I was being set up to take the fall once he flipped town, which he did, and others are indeed pushing that direction. Just saying.
After confirming with GF I can not Wit another person. However others can Wit me, and I would then give them 1 vitality each night. And the vitality drain is not optional and would kill me.
So uh, don't do that please?
Iso Witted Az on Day 1, not I. I don't actually know exactly when Iso did it, but early Day 1 somewhere.
Yes I theoretically could Wit someone else with Az gone now, but doing that would start draining a vitality each night. I'm not precisely sure how others Wits work, I just know how mine works because it's rather important to me living to understand it.