Anyone remember the old Michael Jordan vs. Someone-That-Isn't-Michael-Jordan Gatorade commercials: "Anything you can do, I can do better"?
I always think about this when examining IOK vs. Duress.
Duress hits every spell you want it to hit. It hits zero creatures.
IOK hits every spell that Duress hits, except The Truth and Summoning Trap. It also hits creatures, and happens to nab the ramp spells that allow your opponent to cast Summoning Trap during the end of your turn, as well as the counters that will let the opponent resolve and protect their Jace.
Quote from Forum-dweller »
"But, Oldboy, what if I my game plan is to counter their Primeval Titan? I don't want them to activate their trap card!"
Well, son, you should be playing Spell Pierce in your maindeck and Mindbreak Trap in your sideboard if you're a real control deck.
And you. Are. Outta here.
Edit: To clarify, Oldboy is possibly Lion's Eye Patch
Max, Zak linked me to the hilarity that is this thread. My, my, my.
Despite his slight trolling, Lion's Eye Patch has said nothing that is factually incorrect, and most of his suggestions seem pretty solid.
That said, the biggest point of every match-up is not usually the cards, the but the player, and how he approaches said match-up. What I mean is that it is usually wrong to look for answers to the symptoms rather than the sickness.
In your case, Max, you're approaching Elves the wrong way, by trying to Naturalize a Monument, which, like LEP said, is really the opposite of what you want to do. What you want to do is to prevent them from getting to a point where LEP is relevant. Pointicus' suggestion of IOK over Duress is also valid in this sense, and also because I know that in your/our FNM metagame, IOK will be just as -- if not better than -- Duress four rounds out of five.
Also, I somewhat agree that saying, "Go check OP", is kind of annoying and does somewhat hinder discussion, especially if someone tries to look back on previous ideas. Having an updated Primer Page is great, but having a reliable archive of thoughts and discussions is just as relevant, and having both is just perfect.
I agree with everything you said about The Mind Sculptor. I've been siding some number of copies out against many decks since the day Worldwake dropped -- well, let's be honest here; since the day Patrick Chapin made The First (Good) Jace Deck. That said, he's only a liability against those quick aggro decks if I draw multiples within the first few turns, which is unlikely given that I only play three copies and have the mandatory Preordains.
As the Blue Mirror (Dimir or otherwise) becomes more common, I'm more and more convinced that Jace Beleren is worth his weight. I'd only play one to two copies right now, but since I'm also playing Spell Pierce, he puts you so far ahead in both the Jace Race and the I-Have-More-Counters-Than-You Race that I couldn't see not running him in Spagnolo builds. On that note, I do believe Jace Beleren deserves zero of I-Never-Smile's first sixty slots, but most of my responses are based on Spagnolo lists as I believe most players here are playing that build and it is therefore more helpful to them for me to respond in such a way. (Personally I prefer Bartmus' build to Spagnolo's, but that is neither here nor there.)
I'm glad we agree on Spell Pierce (which actually makes Jace Beleren more playable) because the card is insane.
If you're planning on having counter mana up for their T3/4 play, there is no place for Jace Beleren in your deck
Spell Pierce is a dead card against zero decks.
Granted, I might not want to draw two against A Tribe Called Quest or Elves, but I'm fine with drawing a single copy against any deck.
I'd disagree with you about The Mind Sculptor, but I wouldn't encourage more than two Belerens in the average UB list anyway, so there's not much to be gained from that argument.
I wouldn't really call the Spagnolo lists "tap-out"
The deck has thirteen instants at many points in the curve, and there's enough room for noodling that a player could easily add one to two additional instants in there, maybe more; I know I like to cram in a few copies of Spell Pierce because it catches so many mages off-guard.
Yes, it has its sorceries, big dudes, and creature-lands, but you don't have to mindlessly tap out for them. This is especially true in control mirrors or against ramp strategies. Cards like Preordain, Elixir, Effigy, Chalice, and the occasional Duress/Inquisition all set you up to play however you choose. "Do I go for Jace now or hold up counters/removal?" you ask the Inquisition, to which the Inquisition responds, "He has Primeval Titan in hand, you fool!"
Yes, there are also actual tap-out threats like Frost Titan (though it's obviously not cold where he is, if you know what I mean), but that card is your Trump, much like Keiga and Meloku were back in the day. I don't care what you do next turn. This card is better than your deck. Trinket Mage seems like the only card I ever tap out for that doesn't just Trump my opponent's deck.
*The Moderators whisper into Oldboy's ear.*
Oh, this thread is about Jace Beleren?
Play him.
Play two of him.
Try three.
Did that work? If you're Gerry Thompson, you might want to even try four. He's addicted.
Thank you for the clarification and super quick response!
To further this question, now that I know it does result in a gain or loss of life, if Player A has Sorin and wants to reset his life total from 1 to 10 by using the -3 ability, but Player B has Leyline of Punishment on the battlefield, does nothing happen? This seems very counter-intuitive, but in a way makes sense.
Player A has a Bloodchief Ascension on the battlefield, and casts a Sorin Markov. He immediately activates Sorin's -3 ability, putting his opponent (Player B) from 20 life to 10 life.
At the end of the turn, does Bloodchief Ascension's trigger put a counter on it or not?
I always think about this when examining IOK vs. Duress.
Duress hits every spell you want it to hit. It hits zero creatures.
IOK hits every spell that Duress hits, except The Truth and Summoning Trap. It also hits creatures, and happens to nab the ramp spells that allow your opponent to cast Summoning Trap during the end of your turn, as well as the counters that will let the opponent resolve and protect their Jace.
Well, son, you should be playing Spell Pierce in your maindeck and Mindbreak Trap in your sideboard if you're a real control deck.
And you. Are. Outta here.
Edit: To clarify, Oldboy is possibly Lion's Eye Patch
Despite his slight trolling, Lion's Eye Patch has said nothing that is factually incorrect, and most of his suggestions seem pretty solid.
That said, the biggest point of every match-up is not usually the cards, the but the player, and how he approaches said match-up. What I mean is that it is usually wrong to look for answers to the symptoms rather than the sickness.
In your case, Max, you're approaching Elves the wrong way, by trying to Naturalize a Monument, which, like LEP said, is really the opposite of what you want to do. What you want to do is to prevent them from getting to a point where LEP is relevant. Pointicus' suggestion of IOK over Duress is also valid in this sense, and also because I know that in your/our FNM metagame, IOK will be just as -- if not better than -- Duress four rounds out of five.
Also, I somewhat agree that saying, "Go check OP", is kind of annoying and does somewhat hinder discussion, especially if someone tries to look back on previous ideas. Having an updated Primer Page is great, but having a reliable archive of thoughts and discussions is just as relevant, and having both is just perfect.
If you're not playing JTMS in a deck so similar to Polymorph of the previous standard, then I'm sorry, but you're just doing it wrong.
If you want to be hip, non-conformist, or just can't handle The Truth, then I would like to introduce you to The Budget Forum.
-4 Something
+4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
I'd play a second Spell Pierce over my first Negate.
As the Blue Mirror (Dimir or otherwise) becomes more common, I'm more and more convinced that Jace Beleren is worth his weight. I'd only play one to two copies right now, but since I'm also playing Spell Pierce, he puts you so far ahead in both the Jace Race and the I-Have-More-Counters-Than-You Race that I couldn't see not running him in Spagnolo builds. On that note, I do believe Jace Beleren deserves zero of I-Never-Smile's first sixty slots, but most of my responses are based on Spagnolo lists as I believe most players here are playing that build and it is therefore more helpful to them for me to respond in such a way. (Personally I prefer Bartmus' build to Spagnolo's, but that is neither here nor there.)
I'm glad we agree on Spell Pierce (which actually makes Jace Beleren more playable) because the card is insane.
Spell Pierce is a dead card against zero decks.
Granted, I might not want to draw two against A Tribe Called Quest or Elves, but I'm fine with drawing a single copy against any deck.
I'd disagree with you about The Mind Sculptor, but I wouldn't encourage more than two Belerens in the average UB list anyway, so there's not much to be gained from that argument.
The deck has thirteen instants at many points in the curve, and there's enough room for noodling that a player could easily add one to two additional instants in there, maybe more; I know I like to cram in a few copies of Spell Pierce because it catches so many mages off-guard.
Yes, it has its sorceries, big dudes, and creature-lands, but you don't have to mindlessly tap out for them. This is especially true in control mirrors or against ramp strategies. Cards like Preordain, Elixir, Effigy, Chalice, and the occasional Duress/Inquisition all set you up to play however you choose. "Do I go for Jace now or hold up counters/removal?" you ask the Inquisition, to which the Inquisition responds, "He has Primeval Titan in hand, you fool!"
Yes, there are also actual tap-out threats like Frost Titan (though it's obviously not cold where he is, if you know what I mean), but that card is your Trump, much like Keiga and Meloku were back in the day. I don't care what you do next turn. This card is better than your deck. Trinket Mage seems like the only card I ever tap out for that doesn't just Trump my opponent's deck.
*The Moderators whisper into Oldboy's ear.*
Oh, this thread is about Jace Beleren?
Play him.
Play two of him.
Try three.
Did that work? If you're Gerry Thompson, you might want to even try four.
He's addicted.
To further this question, now that I know it does result in a gain or loss of life, if Player A has Sorin and wants to reset his life total from 1 to 10 by using the -3 ability, but Player B has Leyline of Punishment on the battlefield, does nothing happen? This seems very counter-intuitive, but in a way makes sense.
At the end of the turn, does Bloodchief Ascension's trigger put a counter on it or not?
In BYOS, cards are only banned if they were banned in the Standard you're bringing.
This is what I assumed as well.
No, it is not.
That's actually a very good point. It will almost definitely be reprinted in M12, then, yes?
I'm personally hoping for Wrath of God, but am fully expecting Day of Judgment.