Welp - semi-old thread, but I just wanted to discuss this card more and not make a new thread.
So - my thoughts on LED in decks I play:
Sharuum: I think this is where LED will be best, period. It's on theme, three mana which lets you pump sharuum out super early, and hopefully gets a combo piece into the yard. Something like Disciple of the vault T2, T3 LED, crack it, toss metamorph, cast general and win seems possible. Even if not early, it still allows you to get darksteel forge, mycosynth lattice etc into your yard, and gives you boatloads of mana.
Azami: ehh... a t2 azami seems really cool, but you better have a few wizards to redraw immediately. I'm going to test it, but it seems like it's kinda bad.
Azusa: No. Just plain NO. Even if used for a T1 azusa, discarding your hand (and all lands in it) sucks.
Anyway, in conclusion: I think its a wonderful card, and am glad to have it unbanned.
I do think black decks will get the most use out of it, since they tend to recoup from discards the best. Some sort of URB flashback/madness deck (maybe U/B dralnu?) could be really cool with it I think.
That said - geth isn't too popular. I don't see it biting you in the butt too often.
@mantxi:
Fair enough.
There were external circumstances (namely me being on that trip and having time to use the internet maybe once per day for like 20 minutes, which made looking over and critiquing a list not the best use of time - I had figured that at least acknowledging him was better than just ignoring his post and going on with my own) Plus - I agreed with farchyld, that list was rather aggravating because it looked like he hadn't even read the OP, I mean at least reading the OP to get info would have been nice, but when someone just posts "hey critique my list, btw I don't intend to add to the discussion at all" it's frustrating. I mean, I know like you said you expect respectful answers, but from the other perspective, this thread is like a temple of knowledge, it's our blood sweat and tears we've poured into this, and when someone just goes in ignoring all that and expecting us to repeat what has already been discussed (oh hey, don't use pili pala because it has barely any relevance to the deck) it gets frustrating.
Although you are right, I should have been more polite, we were all new to the deck once and most people do deserve respect:
HOWEVER if someone is going to act a fool "HEY GUYS HEY LISTEN, HOW ABOUT WE RUN NAMELESS ONE because it's a HUGE beatstick since we have so many wizards" and posts no examples or reasons defending it (like I, admittedly often post unpopular stuff like drift of phantasms, seat of the synod, etc, but I've tried to always list why i think the card is good, what combos it has and why i run it in my meta)
If someone doesn't respect us enough to explain their reasons, why should we repeat ourselves explaining to them what has been discussed (or not since nameless one obviously sucks here :P)
But yeah the only post of yours that I've seen not have its advice heeded/discussed was when you first brought diviner's wand to the table, and that was way back in the early pages when the thread was in it's "good ol' days".
I've always tried to listen to the stuff you recommend and test it out, although I may come off as a blowhard I admit. Hell, I feel as if most of your post is directed toward me, and it is valid, I definitely need to try to be nicer, more organized, and more welcoming to new people/more attentive to other posts.
@Farchyld:
As a note owning a force is no reason not to run pact.
Pact and force are both in my deck, as a free counterspell, even one that you have to pay 5 for in a turn, can win the game from the jaws of defeat.
And as an example of what I was saying earlier - farchyld has made a great response to mamiso, I feel as if there is nothing I could add, except saying "I agree with you on these cards which farchyld does not" (namely, I LOVE blue sun's zenith)
and as such I figure it's better not to clutter this thread making my post even bigger when everything I would say has been addressed.
Also mamiso, keep in mind it may be that people just miss your posts sometimes.
There are times where I can't post for a few days, and when I come back there's 5 new pages, I try to read everything but some posts just accidentally slip through the cracks, I AM sorry, I mean you no disrespect, but it does happen. Besides, I work two jobs and am a full time student, nowadays I barely have time to check my facebook, much less respond to this thread, and when I do I try to read everything but end up skimming and missing stuff, and I am sorry.
But as another point, that's why you've gotta nag nag nag like hell when you like something.
I did that for drift of phantasms back in the day and handsome ended up using and loving it because of that, and I'm sure a few others tried and liked it too - admittedly, it's not so great and I don't use it now, but like your point about cloning palinchron - you should have kept posting "hey guys, metamorph on palinchron is a cheap way to go infinite" and eventually everyone would have caught on. Just one post is too easily lost in the clutter.
Anyway, Raine has proven to be a trash addition. Problem is while she stops a lightning bolt or whatever, she only ever cantrips since they just kill her first.
As I suspected, but yeah, still sad that she sucked so much
Also I did try lab maniac, actually won off him by BSZing myself - but at that point I could have bszed my enemy for the same effect, so yeah, he's not really relevant enough to merit a spot IMO.
So in summary, snapcaster mage is the only new card we should run IMO, but I think EVERY deck should run him. Multiplayer bl, french BL, it doesn't matter, he works in every deck.
As a possibly new discussion Fellwar Stone was in Wafu-tapo whatever his name is, the godbook leaker guy, his winning French BL GAAIV deck. Now, we're different from that, but similar in that we both run control - as such i wonder if it may be worth using, as a 2 mana rock that can tap the turn it is played, though will likely make colorless. I mean, that list was more draw-go than our lists are, but yeah with all our good mana rocks banned, this might be worth the cut?
The problem with tornado and predator is that you are likely paying 7+ mana to kill something, which is hard to afford since there'll likely be a winter orb type effect on the board. I do run karn, but drop seems so great just for being cmc 1 + the fact that azusa only really needs to stay alive for a turn to do what I want her to do (namely land ramp).
I do agree that in a typical azusa build the more mana intensive stuff would be better, but I also think that drop of honey might be good in other green ramp decks, where clearing an opponent's general/just killing a utility dork ala dark confidant every turn would be really useful.
It's Azusa, Lost but Seeking.
Multiplayer build. Kinda ticked that drop ran me 25 bucks when nodes are 25 cents LOL.
But yeah, idear is to get fast mana and pump out an early storm cauldron or something, while using trinisphere, static orb, winter orb, storage matrix, etc to just keep myself ahead in mana till I can tooth and nail.
... I don't think its a build that will win often, but I LOVE being a jerk, and keeping everything tapped down all the time seems so fun.
That said, drop of honey is pretty much the only reusable creature kill besides spine of ish-sah for a monogreen deck, which is why I'm running it. To knock out early ashling,radha etc is really nice.
Drop of Honey is a side of green most people don't know of. It's an ancient creature destruction spell the likes of culling scales.
Well, I'm attempting to build a stax style deck, so it seems extremely potent there, especially with stuff like forbidden orchard to make sure it never dies to it's own effect.
However, what about other green decks? It'd be unusable in decks with mostly small creatures, but since decks with green usually ramp to big creatures, it seems as if it could be a good way to keep opponents from clogging the board with chaff creatures.
Anyone have any thoughts?
Welp.
I assume Lion's Eye Diamond will make the cut?|
It seems really solid for us.
What with it being a lotus + one with nothing combined.
The one problem to me is that it doesn't work with the gravestorm combo - unless LED was used to pay for like the hellbent tutor.
However, disciple, undercurrents, etc are still active so I'd say it's worth testing/putting in.
Agree/disagree?
Back home and ready to start year 3 of university hurah!
LOLOLOLOL.
Phantasmal image moves from testing to maindeck.
I can't believe I didn't think of the palinchron interaction either.
God, that is freaking hilarious.
@sess: deprive sucks lol even familiar's ruse is IMO better. And that still sucks. I'm just as sold on arcane denial as you are, so yeah, good stuff there
@fzian: meekstone sucks when my playgroup uses all power 2 and under aggro creatures. Likewise graveyard use is low enough that relic and tormods crypt would be a waste.
As such, effigy, needle, and the moxen are the only 1cmcs in french that seem worthwhile for my list.
Rayne I'm considering simply because - my playgroup is so huge on land destruction and general killing opponent's stuff, if I can protect her she'll probably generate ridiculous CA, I'm mid test on it right now.
And I used to love cryptologist, its just that every deck in my group is now aggro so it's lost its glory (now I pay 2 to level up, removal in response, I've wasted two mana (or in positive light paid 2 to get rid of their removal). So yeah, It is definitely the right choice for your meta likely, and TBH I wish we had a few control decks so I could use it too because I do rather miss having 4 one drop wizards.
Just need to pop in for a bit - It's raining so we got a hotel with free internets and computers to use them, hooray!
In response to... fzian mostly, the last page seems to focus on arcane denial besides his post so yeah.
@cursecatcher: I can see cryptologist being far better in control metas, yeah. I was joking about them forgetting catcher, it happened to my friends twice but only in casual, in competitive games never - yeah it delays the sorcery/instant by a turn, but stopping a T1 thoughtseize or T2 nature's lore/cultivate can be essential. I actually beat a thrun on cockatrice a few weeks ago who had me at like 18 points of damage or so because of a t1 cursecatcher stopping him from being able to t2 nature's lore into t3 thrun. (I mean yeah this is a REALLY fringe example, but T1 thoughtseize et al being stopped is amazing, and also making them wait 1 extra turn to cast their "bomb" types is great too. As it is my meta has NO control besides me it's a shoo in over the crypto.
@seat - Here I must say simply this: I forgot about the existence of pithing needle for some reason. I had both moxen and effigy as my 3 1cmc or lower spells, and as such there were conceivable times where seat was the best - as lyzolda and ashling are two of my worst opponents, and both have deadly abilities with pithing needle in I should not need seat as target #4 any longer. However, with less than these 4 I'd still think seat is solid. There are times where you can't afford to play chrome or diamond, and if you drew effigy/just would prefer an extra land - well there it is. Also, I don't run gauntlet/lens as such it does not interfere with mana doubling.
It's an iffy card I guess, I can see where getting popped by uktabi ape and it's ilk sucks - and has screwed me - but I've had so many decks and so many games that it's been decent (then again, mostly in momir vig... this is rather like lonely sandbar I guess, both were so great for him that I've given them a free pass in azami) that I'm hesitant to get rid of it, but I'll test without it and see.
@fetches - They were so good with sensei's and crucible, without they serve no purpose - also stifle is unplayed in my meta, and I try to have countermana open when I crack it incase of aven. That said, seeing as crucible and sensei's were the two reasons I used it, and both are banned - they've been cut.
@MoM - I agree here. Tried testing without it, missed it. I have never been unhappy to draw it so yeah.
@Kira - I have never seen Rayne (i mean I've seen her in lists but never viewed the card itself) and I will test her, she actually does seem pretty solid - I really like that she reacts to artifacts being popped too. Kira is one I feel really iffy on anyway, the first game I tested him he nearly prevented me from winning via mind over matter (archivist on field and 1 card in hand - luckily opp had 3 in hand so I hit my lands with mom, archivisted into more and stabilized, but had it been azami on field I would have been BOOONED) I mean generally you will be able to work around it, but it IS inconvenient. so rayne will be interesting to test as my "don't pop my stuff" card.
@ Denial - I do not run dismiss. I do run denial. My only cmc > 3 counters are force and pact, I do use many "crap counters" ala miscalculation, delay, etc - but in an aggro environment they become quite good. As said, the simple fact is that it's worth giving them CA to kill off Covenant of Flame or something that will wreck me, and the 2cmc means I can actually play spells on my turn and keep it open.
@ Phantasmal image - more testing is needed, played a few games with it and liked it though. It's so freaking cheap that I think it may be golden.
And I also agree that a new topic would be nice.
In summary I agree with most of your points.
Since I'm on the road I can't do testing right now, so no new recommendations or hidden techs, but I'd like to say as I've thought about it,
Riptide Lab should be far more useful now, with glen elendra, snapcaster, trinket, sage of epityr and of course being able to bounce azami to avoid destruction.
@riley: It comes down to playstyle I guess - I find having all low-cmc cards (thus making the deck slightly less mana hungry except for it's infinites) works best for my meta, perhaps the big guns do indeed work better there though.
Well I decided to make azusa a multiplayer deck, and the best way for that seems to be staxing it up. (basically, she gets the land advantage so I can keep casting my actual good stuff while everyone else struggles to get past 3 mana.. hopefully)
I searched many decklists and forums and made a basic list of stax/annoyance cards that would help here. These seem to be the best known but I'm sure there's tons more that I missed/are harder to find.
karn + mycosynth, spine of ish sah + phyrexian core, the whole loam/crucible/strip mine etc locks I know as well.
This is using standard mtgcommander website rules.
Now, I know for a fact I'm probably missing tons of good stuff.
Especially in green, and older artifacts.
I was wondering if people could just help me out, I'm mainly wanting:
-ANNOYING: Stuff like uba mask, knowledge pool, stax type effects, just stuff that slows people down or disrupts their stuff.
Like said, stuff like root maze and uba mask were really hard to find so i figure there must be tons of other cards like that which are just unfun and a pain in the butt that I don't know about yet.
ALSO
I love mean cards, even if it isn't a pain in the butt for others, if it's really mean (say blowing up a crazy amount of lands ala terastadon) or trashing their hand like with stunted growth, stealing stuff from the deck via jester's cap, etc, then I'd like to know about it too!
-Monogreen or artifact. As it will be azusa this is essential.
Well, as a point to handsome: we got flusterstorm, mindbreak trap and spell pierce recently, all good cheap counters. There's still hope. Not much though lol.
New wizard today 1/1 for U turns into a 3/2 nonwizard. That's what sucks, if it became a 3/2 wizard insect i'd consider it, but as it is the thing is worthless.
So yeah, only card for this deck in the set so far is snapcaster - but he's so good that oh well.
Still getting just 1 box though, can't afford more on my student budget
Fingers crossed - I want a foil snapcaster, regular snapcaster, garruk and lili. LOL. If I did get that I'd freak out.
Anyway, I tested my no MoM and beacon build - it's interesting. I think mom needs to stay, as we need some redundancy in comboing out ability after gaining control. (so far we have MOM - Archivist/Azami, infinimana + stroke / bsz / diviners wand.)
As a point to Sess's friend: How did doran do 29 damage by turn 4?
Lyzolda does not do 29 damage by then, and she's likely the fastest deck in the format (26 damage by t4 is the best I've seen, and thats using the list that got 2nd in the french AND getting a good hand)
Doran is slower than that so I just can't fathom how when the general typically is a T3 play, he'd get so much damage by T4.
As another note that you'll all be glad for I'm going to be offline for about a week - going camping. You won't have to deal with every other post being me for a while
Not damn.
Buy a box of innistrad. I am.
Draft with your friends, (keep the cards lol, just fundraft). You get your 1 mage most likely, and duals etc to sell off.
And drafting fun to boot.
BUT HECK YES HE WILL BE SO GOOD!
I kind of feel the same about kira - I did some test runs and yes she is worth a slot (holy jeeesus, I did a cockatrice against my lyzolda friend, got kira t3, and he spent the whole game trying to off it to no avail thanks to my counter backup. It was so amazing.
But I also want pure tribal lol.
Also took out beacon - I'm trying 0 time warp type effects. Also no mom now - we'll see.
lololol if only man. That would be a mythic rare and probably 60 dollars.
Speaking of which Cursecatcher
is proving to be beastly now!
Loving that I can finally play that badboy.
I have so many cmc 1 wizards now.
Sage, cursecatcher, martyr of frost. I tossed out the terrible, terrible enclave cryptologist for cursecatcher and he is REALLY GOOD. I'd say test him - I mean, you'd be surprised at how many people forget to keep 1 extra mana open, or play around him completely forgetting possible miscalculations/ mana leaks. I mean, even delaying their big sorceries by a turn is just a huge swing in our favor. "Oh, you can't play your Kodama's reach on turn 3? Too bad, eh?" And you don't even have to care about losing him since he was just a t1 play.
Well I am making major revisions - took out fetches, took out vesuva (selling that baby haha) and... bleh. I REALLY want a new counterspell that doesn't suck. I'm playing mental misstep, familiar's ruse was a bust sadly, but I find the 1cmc to be so strict - It's saved my butt countering STP, Lightning bolt, and path before (all on patron wizard, azami, or other relevant wizards) but so many times it's dead as they play 2cmc stuff I want to stop :/
We need another good cmc 2 counter - I almost tested stoic rebuttal and deprive even but went lolno at last second.
I'd settle for mana leak with flashback for 5. Make it happen wizards!
Lol, sorry farchyld, I should have read more of the new OP besides the decklist I guess
I'm in Iowa with the grandparents though, so I have very little internet time and just read what I thought as essential.
Anyway, thanks; I do disagree that it's a crutch, I mean, yeah it should never be fetched with mage - but I've had over 30 games with this new build now, and I've never had artifact destruction used on it but once, when gaddock teeg sacced pridemage on it. (It was my t1 land, he had played first... honestly it was a bad play because I won via diviner's wand XD) Which is part of the point, the only artifact kill that should hit it is Nevdisk and destroy all stuff like that. Anything else just helps me by making them have less kill when they need it more.
I mean - do you want to lose a land to a pridemage or lose a wincon?
Also, trinket maging for it isn't that desperate. Off the top of my head I have 2 moxen (the non opal ones, btw tried opal a while back, we don't have enough artifacts for it, it only works for like sharuum) and brittle effigy in the 1cmc/0cmc slots - now I guess we could remove trinket mage, but I don't think that's a good idea.
One could say getting the land is always worse, but I've had situations where all the blue cards in hand are too good to dump to mox chrome and no lands in hand so diamond would be worthless, and maybe effigy was in the opening or they have nothing worth using it on ATM - I mean, it actually can happen more often than you think and at that point thinning your deck of lands is excellent.
I mean, I think this is just something we will never see eye to eye on, but especially since I no longer run extraplanar lens (now THAT is an artifact people want to blow up!) I've found that I don't end up missing that 1 snow covered island.
On the subject of kira: I do like it, but I feel like the list is really tight already - although the protection from removal is needed. TBH I don't own it, only a proxy in edric. When I sell my modern stuff this weekend I'll buy and test one.
(although we also need room for snapcaster... doh!)
Also, I don't have time to check your lists again, but how many of us are running the 4 blue fetchlands? TBH I've found that the loss of life is more than made up for by the shuffle (less relevant) and the thinning, which is somewhat noticable.
I might be taking them out though - without crucible the appeal is diminished.
So - my thoughts on LED in decks I play:
Sharuum: I think this is where LED will be best, period. It's on theme, three mana which lets you pump sharuum out super early, and hopefully gets a combo piece into the yard. Something like Disciple of the vault T2, T3 LED, crack it, toss metamorph, cast general and win seems possible. Even if not early, it still allows you to get darksteel forge, mycosynth lattice etc into your yard, and gives you boatloads of mana.
Azami: ehh... a t2 azami seems really cool, but you better have a few wizards to redraw immediately. I'm going to test it, but it seems like it's kinda bad.
Azusa: No. Just plain NO. Even if used for a T1 azusa, discarding your hand (and all lands in it) sucks.
Anyway, in conclusion: I think its a wonderful card, and am glad to have it unbanned.
I do think black decks will get the most use out of it, since they tend to recoup from discards the best. Some sort of URB flashback/madness deck (maybe U/B dralnu?) could be really cool with it I think.
That said - geth isn't too popular. I don't see it biting you in the butt too often.
Fair enough.
There were external circumstances (namely me being on that trip and having time to use the internet maybe once per day for like 20 minutes, which made looking over and critiquing a list not the best use of time - I had figured that at least acknowledging him was better than just ignoring his post and going on with my own) Plus - I agreed with farchyld, that list was rather aggravating because it looked like he hadn't even read the OP, I mean at least reading the OP to get info would have been nice, but when someone just posts "hey critique my list, btw I don't intend to add to the discussion at all" it's frustrating. I mean, I know like you said you expect respectful answers, but from the other perspective, this thread is like a temple of knowledge, it's our blood sweat and tears we've poured into this, and when someone just goes in ignoring all that and expecting us to repeat what has already been discussed (oh hey, don't use pili pala because it has barely any relevance to the deck) it gets frustrating.
Although you are right, I should have been more polite, we were all new to the deck once and most people do deserve respect:
HOWEVER if someone is going to act a fool "HEY GUYS HEY LISTEN, HOW ABOUT WE RUN NAMELESS ONE because it's a HUGE beatstick since we have so many wizards" and posts no examples or reasons defending it (like I, admittedly often post unpopular stuff like drift of phantasms, seat of the synod, etc, but I've tried to always list why i think the card is good, what combos it has and why i run it in my meta)
If someone doesn't respect us enough to explain their reasons, why should we repeat ourselves explaining to them what has been discussed (or not since nameless one obviously sucks here :P)
But yeah the only post of yours that I've seen not have its advice heeded/discussed was when you first brought diviner's wand to the table, and that was way back in the early pages when the thread was in it's "good ol' days".
I've always tried to listen to the stuff you recommend and test it out, although I may come off as a blowhard I admit. Hell, I feel as if most of your post is directed toward me, and it is valid, I definitely need to try to be nicer, more organized, and more welcoming to new people/more attentive to other posts.
@Farchyld:
As a note owning a force is no reason not to run pact.
Pact and force are both in my deck, as a free counterspell, even one that you have to pay 5 for in a turn, can win the game from the jaws of defeat.
And as an example of what I was saying earlier - farchyld has made a great response to mamiso, I feel as if there is nothing I could add, except saying "I agree with you on these cards which farchyld does not" (namely, I LOVE blue sun's zenith)
and as such I figure it's better not to clutter this thread making my post even bigger when everything I would say has been addressed.
Also mamiso, keep in mind it may be that people just miss your posts sometimes.
There are times where I can't post for a few days, and when I come back there's 5 new pages, I try to read everything but some posts just accidentally slip through the cracks, I AM sorry, I mean you no disrespect, but it does happen. Besides, I work two jobs and am a full time student, nowadays I barely have time to check my facebook, much less respond to this thread, and when I do I try to read everything but end up skimming and missing stuff, and I am sorry.
But as another point, that's why you've gotta nag nag nag like hell when you like something.
I did that for drift of phantasms back in the day and handsome ended up using and loving it because of that, and I'm sure a few others tried and liked it too - admittedly, it's not so great and I don't use it now, but like your point about cloning palinchron - you should have kept posting "hey guys, metamorph on palinchron is a cheap way to go infinite" and eventually everyone would have caught on. Just one post is too easily lost in the clutter.
Anyway, Raine has proven to be a trash addition. Problem is while she stops a lightning bolt or whatever, she only ever cantrips since they just kill her first.
As I suspected, but yeah, still sad that she sucked so much
Also I did try lab maniac, actually won off him by BSZing myself - but at that point I could have bszed my enemy for the same effect, so yeah, he's not really relevant enough to merit a spot IMO.
So in summary, snapcaster mage is the only new card we should run IMO, but I think EVERY deck should run him. Multiplayer bl, french BL, it doesn't matter, he works in every deck.
As a possibly new discussion Fellwar Stone was in Wafu-tapo whatever his name is, the godbook leaker guy, his winning French BL GAAIV deck. Now, we're different from that, but similar in that we both run control - as such i wonder if it may be worth using, as a 2 mana rock that can tap the turn it is played, though will likely make colorless. I mean, that list was more draw-go than our lists are, but yeah with all our good mana rocks banned, this might be worth the cut?
I do agree that in a typical azusa build the more mana intensive stuff would be better, but I also think that drop of honey might be good in other green ramp decks, where clearing an opponent's general/just killing a utility dork ala dark confidant every turn would be really useful.
Multiplayer build. Kinda ticked that drop ran me 25 bucks when nodes are 25 cents LOL.
But yeah, idear is to get fast mana and pump out an early storm cauldron or something, while using trinisphere, static orb, winter orb, storage matrix, etc to just keep myself ahead in mana till I can tooth and nail.
... I don't think its a build that will win often, but I LOVE being a jerk, and keeping everything tapped down all the time seems so fun.
That said, drop of honey is pretty much the only reusable creature kill besides spine of ish-sah for a monogreen deck, which is why I'm running it. To knock out early ashling,radha etc is really nice.
Well, I'm attempting to build a stax style deck, so it seems extremely potent there, especially with stuff like forbidden orchard to make sure it never dies to it's own effect.
However, what about other green decks? It'd be unusable in decks with mostly small creatures, but since decks with green usually ramp to big creatures, it seems as if it could be a good way to keep opponents from clogging the board with chaff creatures.
Anyone have any thoughts?
I assume Lion's Eye Diamond will make the cut?|
It seems really solid for us.
What with it being a lotus + one with nothing combined.
The one problem to me is that it doesn't work with the gravestorm combo - unless LED was used to pay for like the hellbent tutor.
However, disciple, undercurrents, etc are still active so I'd say it's worth testing/putting in.
Agree/disagree?
LOLOLOLOL.
Phantasmal image moves from testing to maindeck.
I can't believe I didn't think of the palinchron interaction either.
God, that is freaking hilarious.
@sess: deprive sucks lol even familiar's ruse is IMO better. And that still sucks. I'm just as sold on arcane denial as you are, so yeah, good stuff there
@fzian: meekstone sucks when my playgroup uses all power 2 and under aggro creatures. Likewise graveyard use is low enough that relic and tormods crypt would be a waste.
As such, effigy, needle, and the moxen are the only 1cmcs in french that seem worthwhile for my list.
Rayne I'm considering simply because - my playgroup is so huge on land destruction and general killing opponent's stuff, if I can protect her she'll probably generate ridiculous CA, I'm mid test on it right now.
And I used to love cryptologist, its just that every deck in my group is now aggro so it's lost its glory (now I pay 2 to level up, removal in response, I've wasted two mana (or in positive light paid 2 to get rid of their removal). So yeah, It is definitely the right choice for your meta likely, and TBH I wish we had a few control decks so I could use it too because I do rather miss having 4 one drop wizards.
In response to... fzian mostly, the last page seems to focus on arcane denial besides his post so yeah.
@cursecatcher: I can see cryptologist being far better in control metas, yeah. I was joking about them forgetting catcher, it happened to my friends twice but only in casual, in competitive games never - yeah it delays the sorcery/instant by a turn, but stopping a T1 thoughtseize or T2 nature's lore/cultivate can be essential. I actually beat a thrun on cockatrice a few weeks ago who had me at like 18 points of damage or so because of a t1 cursecatcher stopping him from being able to t2 nature's lore into t3 thrun. (I mean yeah this is a REALLY fringe example, but T1 thoughtseize et al being stopped is amazing, and also making them wait 1 extra turn to cast their "bomb" types is great too. As it is my meta has NO control besides me it's a shoo in over the crypto.
@seat - Here I must say simply this: I forgot about the existence of pithing needle for some reason. I had both moxen and effigy as my 3 1cmc or lower spells, and as such there were conceivable times where seat was the best - as lyzolda and ashling are two of my worst opponents, and both have deadly abilities with pithing needle in I should not need seat as target #4 any longer. However, with less than these 4 I'd still think seat is solid. There are times where you can't afford to play chrome or diamond, and if you drew effigy/just would prefer an extra land - well there it is. Also, I don't run gauntlet/lens as such it does not interfere with mana doubling.
It's an iffy card I guess, I can see where getting popped by uktabi ape and it's ilk sucks - and has screwed me - but I've had so many decks and so many games that it's been decent (then again, mostly in momir vig... this is rather like lonely sandbar I guess, both were so great for him that I've given them a free pass in azami) that I'm hesitant to get rid of it, but I'll test without it and see.
@fetches - They were so good with sensei's and crucible, without they serve no purpose - also stifle is unplayed in my meta, and I try to have countermana open when I crack it incase of aven. That said, seeing as crucible and sensei's were the two reasons I used it, and both are banned - they've been cut.
@MoM - I agree here. Tried testing without it, missed it. I have never been unhappy to draw it so yeah.
@Kira - I have never seen Rayne (i mean I've seen her in lists but never viewed the card itself) and I will test her, she actually does seem pretty solid - I really like that she reacts to artifacts being popped too. Kira is one I feel really iffy on anyway, the first game I tested him he nearly prevented me from winning via mind over matter (archivist on field and 1 card in hand - luckily opp had 3 in hand so I hit my lands with mom, archivisted into more and stabilized, but had it been azami on field I would have been BOOONED) I mean generally you will be able to work around it, but it IS inconvenient. so rayne will be interesting to test as my "don't pop my stuff" card.
@ Denial - I do not run dismiss. I do run denial. My only cmc > 3 counters are force and pact, I do use many "crap counters" ala miscalculation, delay, etc - but in an aggro environment they become quite good. As said, the simple fact is that it's worth giving them CA to kill off Covenant of Flame or something that will wreck me, and the 2cmc means I can actually play spells on my turn and keep it open.
@ Phantasmal image - more testing is needed, played a few games with it and liked it though. It's so freaking cheap that I think it may be golden.
And I also agree that a new topic would be nice.
In summary I agree with most of your points.
Since I'm on the road I can't do testing right now, so no new recommendations or hidden techs, but I'd like to say as I've thought about it,
Riptide Lab should be far more useful now, with glen elendra, snapcaster, trinket, sage of epityr and of course being able to bounce azami to avoid destruction.
@riley: It comes down to playstyle I guess - I find having all low-cmc cards (thus making the deck slightly less mana hungry except for it's infinites) works best for my meta, perhaps the big guns do indeed work better there though.
I searched many decklists and forums and made a basic list of stax/annoyance cards that would help here. These seem to be the best known but I'm sure there's tons more that I missed/are harder to find.
karn + mycosynth, spine of ish sah + phyrexian core, the whole loam/crucible/strip mine etc locks I know as well.
This is using standard mtgcommander website rules.
Now, I know for a fact I'm probably missing tons of good stuff.
Especially in green, and older artifacts.
I was wondering if people could just help me out, I'm mainly wanting:
-ANNOYING: Stuff like uba mask, knowledge pool, stax type effects, just stuff that slows people down or disrupts their stuff.
Like said, stuff like root maze and uba mask were really hard to find so i figure there must be tons of other cards like that which are just unfun and a pain in the butt that I don't know about yet.
ALSO
I love mean cards, even if it isn't a pain in the butt for others, if it's really mean (say blowing up a crazy amount of lands ala terastadon) or trashing their hand like with stunted growth, stealing stuff from the deck via jester's cap, etc, then I'd like to know about it too!
-Monogreen or artifact. As it will be azusa this is essential.
Thanks for the help everyone!
New wizard today 1/1 for U turns into a 3/2 nonwizard. That's what sucks, if it became a 3/2 wizard insect i'd consider it, but as it is the thing is worthless.
So yeah, only card for this deck in the set so far is snapcaster - but he's so good that oh well.
Still getting just 1 box though, can't afford more on my student budget
Fingers crossed - I want a foil snapcaster, regular snapcaster, garruk and lili. LOL. If I did get that I'd freak out.
Anyway, I tested my no MoM and beacon build - it's interesting. I think mom needs to stay, as we need some redundancy in comboing out ability after gaining control. (so far we have MOM - Archivist/Azami, infinimana + stroke / bsz / diviners wand.)
As a point to Sess's friend: How did doran do 29 damage by turn 4?
Lyzolda does not do 29 damage by then, and she's likely the fastest deck in the format (26 damage by t4 is the best I've seen, and thats using the list that got 2nd in the french AND getting a good hand)
Doran is slower than that so I just can't fathom how when the general typically is a T3 play, he'd get so much damage by T4.
As another note that you'll all be glad for I'm going to be offline for about a week - going camping. You won't have to deal with every other post being me for a while
W/G werewolves possible?
Methinks yes.
Love me some in EDH
Get that survival of the fittest down, dump a ton into grave, mmmhmmm good times
Noctournus is unreliable, this guy is too - but he makes you 2/2s every turn!
WOW.
A free 2/2 flier every turn.
DO LIKE.
Buy a box of innistrad. I am.
Draft with your friends, (keep the cards lol, just fundraft). You get your 1 mage most likely, and duals etc to sell off.
And drafting fun to boot.
BUT HECK YES HE WILL BE SO GOOD!
I kind of feel the same about kira - I did some test runs and yes she is worth a slot (holy jeeesus, I did a cockatrice against my lyzolda friend, got kira t3, and he spent the whole game trying to off it to no avail thanks to my counter backup. It was so amazing.
But I also want pure tribal lol.
Also took out beacon - I'm trying 0 time warp type effects. Also no mom now - we'll see.
Speaking of which
Cursecatcher
is proving to be beastly now!
Loving that I can finally play that badboy.
I have so many cmc 1 wizards now.
Sage, cursecatcher, martyr of frost. I tossed out the terrible, terrible enclave cryptologist for cursecatcher and he is REALLY GOOD. I'd say test him - I mean, you'd be surprised at how many people forget to keep 1 extra mana open, or play around him completely forgetting possible miscalculations/ mana leaks. I mean, even delaying their big sorceries by a turn is just a huge swing in our favor. "Oh, you can't play your Kodama's reach on turn 3? Too bad, eh?" And you don't even have to care about losing him since he was just a t1 play.
Well I am making major revisions - took out fetches, took out vesuva (selling that baby haha) and... bleh. I REALLY want a new counterspell that doesn't suck. I'm playing mental misstep, familiar's ruse was a bust sadly, but I find the 1cmc to be so strict - It's saved my butt countering STP, Lightning bolt, and path before (all on patron wizard, azami, or other relevant wizards) but so many times it's dead as they play 2cmc stuff I want to stop :/
We need another good cmc 2 counter - I almost tested stoic rebuttal and deprive even but went lolno at last second.
I'd settle for mana leak with flashback for 5. Make it happen wizards!
I'm in Iowa with the grandparents though, so I have very little internet time and just read what I thought as essential.
Anyway, thanks; I do disagree that it's a crutch, I mean, yeah it should never be fetched with mage - but I've had over 30 games with this new build now, and I've never had artifact destruction used on it but once, when gaddock teeg sacced pridemage on it. (It was my t1 land, he had played first... honestly it was a bad play because I won via diviner's wand XD) Which is part of the point, the only artifact kill that should hit it is Nevdisk and destroy all stuff like that. Anything else just helps me by making them have less kill when they need it more.
I mean - do you want to lose a land to a pridemage or lose a wincon?
Also, trinket maging for it isn't that desperate. Off the top of my head I have 2 moxen (the non opal ones, btw tried opal a while back, we don't have enough artifacts for it, it only works for like sharuum) and brittle effigy in the 1cmc/0cmc slots - now I guess we could remove trinket mage, but I don't think that's a good idea.
One could say getting the land is always worse, but I've had situations where all the blue cards in hand are too good to dump to mox chrome and no lands in hand so diamond would be worthless, and maybe effigy was in the opening or they have nothing worth using it on ATM - I mean, it actually can happen more often than you think and at that point thinning your deck of lands is excellent.
I mean, I think this is just something we will never see eye to eye on, but especially since I no longer run extraplanar lens (now THAT is an artifact people want to blow up!) I've found that I don't end up missing that 1 snow covered island.
On the subject of kira: I do like it, but I feel like the list is really tight already - although the protection from removal is needed. TBH I don't own it, only a proxy in edric. When I sell my modern stuff this weekend I'll buy and test one.
(although we also need room for snapcaster... doh!)
Also, I don't have time to check your lists again, but how many of us are running the 4 blue fetchlands? TBH I've found that the loss of life is more than made up for by the shuffle (less relevant) and the thinning, which is somewhat noticable.
I might be taking them out though - without crucible the appeal is diminished.