I meant next year.. If he "makes" a grassroots format within the next year, he will be looking pretty good. I can tell when people really want to work for Wizards. Not that it's a bad thing to have aspirations or goals, I just dont have any time for my own so people that are trying just look like they are show boating to me.
I do not personally know Mr. Verhey, so I cannot speak to his integrity or honor in creating this format and trying to spearhead it. I can, however, speak for myself as an advocate of the format. I have been advocating for Overextended since the rumor first arose last summer (July 2010, I believe). While there might be some people who are showboating in trying to get on board/get noticed by Wizards (maybe this is Mr. Verhey and maybe this is not), there are DEFINITELY players like myself who don't give a darn about that.
We just want Overextended to exist because the format is fun, accessible, new, and innovative. I would be willing to bet that Mr. Verhey is one such player. Even if he is not, there is no reason to cast suspicion at those who want to work alongside him to make the format a reality. Some of us are genuine about this business.
Dredge existed (and won) several MAJOR tournaments without Onslaught cards, and all of the cards you mentioned.
They still have dread return into Iona, off of Bridge from Below, with Narcomoeba and Bloodghast.
Legacy Dredge and Extended Dredge had slightly different game plans.
I am not sure where you are getting your information from. Ichorid/Dredge decks were certainly a force in Extended in 2005 and 2006, but all of the versions used Therapy/Psychatog/Wonder/Chrome Mox/Putrid Imp/etc. and a variety of the Odyssey (not Onslaught) cards that I mentioned. The deck never existed in any form without those cards, at least not at any competitive level. Modern does not have those cards and therefore does not really have the same explosiveness of Dredge as before.
Moreover, graveyard hate is abundant in the post dredge world. Crypt, Leyline, Ravenous Trap, Relic, and a variety of other cards are sideboard staples in any metagame. This would all contribute to a taming of Dredge in the format. The GGT ban does not need to be a part of that.
Definitely not in this thread, but I'd like to have a forum for this format where we can post decklists and talk about other stuff regarding this format.
I agree. A forum to discuss archetypes of the new format would be awesome, both for increasing awareness about Modern, and for showing support for the format (not to mention figuring out the new metagame).
Many people are probably going to start with this attitude, but it really is not warranted. Legacy has a high entrance cost to start playing. The main staples are all Jace TMS price levels or higher, and to play decks without them just uncompetitive (Force of Will, Wasteland, and Duals, I am looking at you). The format also has a problem with the Reserve List which will always hang over it. Modern does not share these problems.
Just like Wizards recently printed the new tournament-competitive decks with 2 Stoneforge Mystics in them, to increase competitive players, so too can they do that with the non-reserve list staples of a Modern format. This format would not replace Legacy, but it would be a cheaper and distinct Eternal format with its own fun metagame and strategies.
I dont think that Dredge is 'backbreaking' but it was ALWAYS around, and Ive read numerous articles about how Wizards doesn't like that deck. With the proper hate, its a very good matchup, but people always had to have sideboard hate for it, and when people stopped putting in hate, then it would come out of nowhere and win again.
I agree that Dredge is certainly one of the omnipresent boogymen of any format it inhabits. But this format is really an exception to this. Even without the Troll banning, Dredge just loses so darn much from its core decklist that it needs to undergo major changes to remain viable. Here is a list of what Dredge loses from its optimal incarnation:
A lot of those cards are impossible to replace in the current Modern metagame. Even with GGT still around, Dredge just loses all of its early game explosiveness from the Odyseey Block graveyard/discard cards. GGT could safely be unbanned to create a far slower and far more tame version of Dredge than currently exists in Legacy, or than ever existed in any metagame.
All decks are going to have some kind of graveyard hatred in their sideboards. The newer version of Dredge (with GGT but without all of its most important explosive components) would be the right speed to compete in the Modern metagame.
the biggest question mark here is that Hypergenesis isn't on this banned list.
the initial meta for this format looks like Hypergenesis, Punishing grove zoo, and possibly treehouse as a answer to punnishing grove zoo.
There is a lot of fear about Hypergenesis in this format, and most of it is unwarranted. The deck has quite a few weaknesses that most other archetypes can exploit. These include, but are not limited to, turn 1 or 2 Duress/Thoughtseize/Inquisition, Chalice of the Void at 0, countermagic (Mana Leak, Spell Pierce, Cryptic Command, Negate), Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon, Meddling Mage, and a variety of other options.
Also, HG is not as consistently explosive and unbeatable as are other decks. With an optimal hand, sure, it can effectively establish a turn 3 win. But in many games, with its lack of low mana hand fixers that other combo decks rely on, HG can be its own worst enemy. I played HG for months, and I had many frustrating games where my hand or my creatures in it were just not good enough to establish a dominant board position.
The deck will definitely be a contender, but there are many tools to stop it. It will not be broken, and it will be a healthy addition to the format.
The format would probably be around Legacy speed. For those who are less familiar with the current Legacy metagame, games can go for quite a few turns and matchups tend to be fairly interactive. While there are certainly explosive combo decks, they do not have the luxury of goldfishing in every matchup, where they have to fight through hand disruption, countermagic, land destruction, and other anti-combo tech.
The same goes for Aggro, given that most of the best anti-aggro cards are present in the format. Sadly, Swords to Plowshares will not be a Modern staple, but other than that, the format loses none of its removal. Force of Will is also conspicuously absent, but given the similar absence of Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, and Cabal Ritual (amongst others), the combo decks will not have the raw explosiveness of Legacy archetypes.
Overall, Modern Magic will probably be a few turns slower than Legacy, many turns faster than Standard, and much more diverse and innovative than Extended.
Guys, you DON'T need Jace's Erasure, Underworld Dreams, or anything like that. If you can assemble Mind over Matter and Bell, with a Darksteel in your deck, you win. If you can't, then Dreams, Erasure, etc., are dead draws.
Agreed. The decking combo is enough in and of itself to win.
Your correct in the fact metagames differ , SCG represents a very small % of worldwide tournaments.
Secondly the moment a new deck establishes itself the metagame changes to accomodate it.
Thirdly you did not say " forced draw effects are not commonly played in legacy" you said that there are none in legacy.
This is not catty more drawing attention to the mistake which in itself is a flaw in the proposed deck and needs to be catered for.
You don't come off as beligerent, more arrogant but that's fine as my aim was to politely help you due to the fact you come off as knowing very little about legacy and more interested in dumbing down the format to your preffered neo-extended format.
I just don't understand what you are trying to say here. Your over-representation of a barely played card if anything shows that you know less about Legacy than you claim. I have designed this deck with the current big names of the format in mind with an eye towards beating them (Zoo, Merfolk, NO CounterTop, New Horizons). While the SCG metagame does not represent the entire world Legacy metagame, it definitely represents the American metgame (where I happen to be), and it definitely informs player decisions abroad. I also do not see where you think you were being "politely helpful". That would have been saying "What does this deck do about forced draw effects?" instead of "You don't know anything about the format, and I do, so let me enlighten you." Addressing flaws is a key process of deckbuilding, as is bringing them up, but not in the way that you have done so.
And as to the overextended point, I really do not see how that is either relevant or helpful, especially because I haven't mentioned it at all in this thread. Helping with deckbuilding is valuable, but random trolling is not.
I like the concept, but there are a few drawbacks to this deck.
1) Your opponent's going to draw their deck and have it in hand, while you will likely be somewhat card limited. If they can find some way to prevent death by decking, you're toast.
Quote from Morningstar81 »
2) This doen't win immediately in the strict sense of the word. It takes around 100 steps of untap and draw to win, and your opponent will gradually draw his entire deck in the process. You'll lose if he draws into Krosan Grip and has mana available to cast it, which means you will almost always have to dump your hand to tap out your opponent in games 2 and 3. This in turn means that you can't spend too many resources accelerating into the combo and if you are forced into a counter war to resolve Mind Over Matter, you won't have resources to tap out your opponent and will lose to Grip.
This is an excellent objection that has an easy solution. Let's assume you combo out on turn 5-6. Your opponent will probably have 5-6 mana in play, a few of which are green. Prior to comboing out, use Mind Over Matter itself to tap as many of their lands/Hierarchs as possible. Once you have done so, end the phase and move to the next one. With the opponent's mana pools now empty, their Krosan Grips that they will inevitably draw will just sit in their hands. This is the most elegant solution to the problem, and it is built into the combo itself.
2) You're going to have some difficulty getting that combo going by turn 2 (generally most Legacy decks can gain board dominance by turn 2) I figure it'd take 5-6 of your opening 7-10 cards to fully get it running by then. Doable, but not efficient.
Thopter-based decks go off a lot later with a control shell. Given this deck's use of Enlightened Tutor, it would be incredibly easy to add in the standard CounterTop package, making 4 of our main deck components tutorable with E-Tutor.
3) Lots of stuff available in Legacy that allows your opponent to short circuit your win-con. (Stifle, Abolish and Pithing Needle come to mind)
[/quote]
My biggest worries are not these cards, all of which are used in game 2-3 (with the exception of Stifle in some Merfolk/Tempo Thresh builds, and Needle in some builds running Trinket Mage like Tezzerator and Painter/Stone, although those are not widely played decks). I am far more concerned about the Qasali Pridemage in all 3 games that Zoo brings to the table. A turn 2 Pridemage needs to be killed before I can even cast the Bell, let alone MOM. The most effective solution is just that; kill the Pridemage with Swords or Path, both of which this UW deck could run. Is it enough? Between that, Daze, FoW, and CounterTop, it probably is. But testing would answer that question better than speculation.
1) While it is true that the combo only involves 2 cards, it has a total cost of 9 mana and more importantly a critical cost of 6 mana 4 of which blue (for Mind Over Matter) which takes away much of its viability. You can't efficiently accelerate into 2UUUU, and you'll most likely have to play the combo cards in different turns, making you vulnerable to removal (Qasali Pridemage, Krosan Grip, etc).
This means that building a fast combo deck out of this is not very viable. You're better off going for a combo-control Enlightened Tutor-based deck similar to the Thopter-Sword CounterTop builds. But even in such a build, I can think of few reasons why I'd opt for a 6 mana card to win the game, when I could go for the Thopter combo or for Painter-Grindstone.
The UUUU in MOM is problematic, and definitely requires some creative solutions. Show and Tell is obviously one such solution, an excellent one that gives us an alternate win condition with Emrakul AND accelerates our primary win. But we can't reliably have this card at all time, so we need other options. Here are some options:
1) Lotus Bloom: Could be used with Tezzeret, especially given Tezz's synergy with both Sensei's Divining Top and Temple Bell.
2) Carpet of Flowers: Against a lot of Legacy decks, this gives some huge acceleration starting on turn 1. But against Zoo and Goblins it's a totally dead draw. A bit too inconsistent for my taste.
3) Mystic Gate: Filters our mana, but gives us Wasteland vulnerability. Has an awesome combo with MOM for lots of blue mana but sadly that actually requires the MOM in play...
4) Saprazzan Skerry: Accelerates us into the right colors. The earliest you could combo out with Skerry would be around turn 4 assuming a turn 1 Skerry, turn 2 island, turn 3 island, turn 4 ancient tomb/city of traitors or something to that effect. That's not bad persay, especially on the play, but it's not great either.
5) High Tide: Someone on another forum suggested the Solidarity staple to help combo out. It's not a bad option, but it has us winning at about the same time that the Skerry version wins: turn 4.
Those are some of the options that come to mind. Thoughts on these and other ones?
Last but not least, this seems strictly worse than the Hive Mind combo, which also has a critical cost of 6 mana, but is much easier to accelerate into (Grim Monolith helps it more than this combo), only requires resolving Hive Mind and wins when it does.
The most important difference that I see is the ability to get both pieces with Enlightened Tutor, and the fact that both combo pieces are useful on their own. Temple Bell is not a bad card, even with the reciprocal card draw. MOM without the Bell is of course pretty darn powerful. Hive Mind/Pact of the Titan without the other piece, however, is basically a dead draw.
Quote from giallarihorn »
IMO, it's too slow for competitive Legacy, since you'd be facing down Zoo and the assorted. I could be wrong on that count, though.
Speed is definitely an issue with the UUUU in the MOM cost, but then again there are plenty of "slow" decks in Legacy that are competitive. We don't need to win right away to play against the fast decks. We just need to keep a stable board state and defend our combo pieces. Against some decks, that's pretty easy (Goblins and Dredge for instance strike me as easy matchups). Against other decks, it's easier said than done (Zoo and Merfolk). But given that this combo only takes up 8 slots, and has overlap in the enchantment/artifact department, you have a lot of extra slots to protect your combo from the standard Legacy perils.
Yet again your wrong about cards in legacy I'm not meaning to pick on you but this is like the 3rd time you've stated a clear untruth about decks/cards in legacy.
Solidarity which while no longer played much did reign as a tier 1 legacy deck for a fair period of time and has a winning condition that involved forcing your opponent to draw cards after you got them low.
Enchanteress which is also on the rise has the alternate win condition of using a large stroke of genius to make opponent draw library.
Below is a list of the top decks from the most recent SCG Open tournaments that I compiled for a different forum. The data is essentially 100% accurate, but I might have missed a Zoo, Merfolk, or CounterTop entry here and there.
Merfolk: 17
ZOO: 15
CounterTop Variations: 15
Reanimator: 11
Goblins: 5
New Horizons: 5
ANT: 4
Belcher: 3
Landstill: 3
Blue Land: 3
Team America: 2
MBC: 2
Eva Green: 2
Aggro Loam: 2
Angel Stompy: 1
Tezzerator: 1
Dredge: 1
MUC: 1
WW: 1
UW Tempo: 1
Helm of the Void: 1
Painter Stone: 1
Show and Tell: 1
Scapeshift: 1
Survival: 1
BW Aggro: 1
Mono W Stax: 1
Thopter Sword: 1
These decks can reasonably be considered representative of the Legacy metagame, although I admit that there is some variation in the European and East Asian Legacy metagames. But that said, we will notice one thing that these decks have in common. Or rather, one thing these decks do not have in common. Forced Draw Effects. Just because some decks use them, does not mean that any representative number of decks do. I would love to hear any other supposed "untruths" that you think I am making about Legacy and address those as well.
Solidarity? According to DeckCheck, there are only 7 solidarity decks that have made it to the top 8 since January 2010. Of those, only one of them actually won. It has long been considered a dead or at least dormant combo deck since the explosion of ANT, and while that might change with the Mystical Tutor banning, it has not yet come about. You even acknowledge this fact and still bring it up as counter-evidence. As to Enchantress with Stroke, I do not see a single one in all of the deck listings. The deck is certainly good and certainly posts results, but not with the Stroke addition as you suggest.
I do not mean to come off as belligerent here, but you are misrepresenting the cards, the decks, and the format as a whole. I respectfully object to your criticism and do not intend to facilitate a catty internet argument about this, but the facts are not on your side.
mmm so you can basicly scry2 every turn at the cost of 2 life for each card you wanna keep on top .... doesn't really sound like vintage material to me
and actually quite playable in EDH. edit: Hope ur right
Good catch. I missed the most important part of the card (the drawing). Thank you for catching that. I have edited the above post to reflect that change.
This is too weak with both the skipped draw and the 2 life cost. Arena lets you draw an additional card for 1 life. In the very least, and it would still be a nerf, have it so that each card you draw costs you 1 life. The scrying aspect is cool, but for every card you scry you lose card advantage - it would very rarely be worth bottom-decking a card instead of just drawing it for eventual use later.
Easy fix: get rid of the skipped draw step. That would retain the card's flavor AND make it more powerful without being broken.
-ktkenshinx-
Dark Tutelage 1BB
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top two cards of your library. For each of those cards, pay 2 life and put them in your hand or put them on the bottom of your library.
Every combo is fragile against sideboard cards. Take ANT (Ad Naueseam Tendrils) for instance. Despite the prevalence of 4 Mindbreak Trap, Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Thorn of Amethyst, and a host of other Storm hate cards, this deck enjoyed spectacular success for years (until the recent Mystical Tutor banning).
This deck could easily play through hate in a similar way. The only problematic card is Krosan Grip, and even that is just a matter of making sure your opponent cannot cast it through mana denial or removing it from the deck proactively (Extirpate, Sadistic Sacrament, Silence, Orim's Chant, etc.)
Isn't this strictly worse than Painter Servant though? Of course, I say that as an MTGO player where Imperial Servant is only $3... but still
Servant is a creature. That means vulnerability to Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Gempalm Incinerator. In response to your Grindstone activation, your opponent can just kill the Servant. That forces you to try and combo on your opponent's turns, or have countermagic backup. This combo does not need that.
The Eldrazi titans actually hit the graveyard for a time, which means an opponent with graveyard hate (which is EVERYWHERE) in Legacy, could feasibly win if they had more cards. But a DSC endlessly cycling between hand and Library would circumvent this problem. Besides, there are no Legacy cards that force an opponent to draw, so it's not like the opponent could take advantage of you having only one card left in your library (that card being the endlessly cycling DSC).
Also, Show and Tell could serve double duty in the deck. It can a) accelerate MoM into play and b) drop your big bad Emrakul as well. This gives the deck a viable alternate win condition.
It is rare that I get excited about combos in new sets. They are generally slow, require too many cards, do not win outright, have excessive vulnerabilities, and so on. But this combo does not fall victim to these perils.
Temple Bell 3
Artifact
Tap: Each player draws a card
Here's how the combo works for those that do not see it:
Tap Bell
Discard a card to MoM, untap Bell
Tap Bell
Repeat...
A simple combo that should be used for one simple goal: decking your opponent. Sure, you can use the draw engine to search out an ideal hand with 50 cards in it, but then you actually have to cast those cards. Given that your opponent now has at least a half dozen counterspells between Daze and Force of Will, you do not want to get yourself in this situation.
But decking your opponent is a painfully easy goal that can be accomplished with one simple change to your deck: playing with more cards. If you use a 61+ card deck and your opponent uses a 60 card ones, you will have more cards than they will, and you will be able to win off of a series of activations of the combo. Additionally, as posters have pointed out, using Progenitus and Emrakul can keep you shuffling your cards, and keep your opponent decking himself (Xelopheris noted this immediately, and it is good to point it out in this first post).
So why is this combo potentially viable in Legacy, a format where it is notoriously difficult to make new decks and combos? Here are some reasons:
1) Only involves 2 cards.
2) Wins immediately.
3) Both pieces can be tutored for with one unbanned card, Enlightened Tutor.
4) Involves the color Blue, which means more Force of Will and Daze.
5) Both cards are useful on their own.
6) Coincides nicely with the Grim Monolith unbanning for acceleration.
What are your thoughts on this combo? It's a combo that fits a lot of criteria for a Legacy deck, and I know that there will be ideas out there involving it. Thoughts? Suggestions? Criticisms?
Some of the guesses here where very close, but some of them were WILDLY off in outerspace.
I looked over the pages of this thread to see all of the non-tutor guesses. The stuff that strikes me as consistent is below:
1) Black
2) Enchantment
3) Gives you cards
4) Makes you lose life
The "WILDLY off in outerspace" guesses are probably those involving creature control and auras, as these represented a minority of the card designs. The Sylvan Library/Dark Confidant ideas are also likely the best.
Other considerations about the card:
1) It can't be worse than Phyrexian Arena. This was not a problematic card by any means in any format, and Wizards is not so stupid to think otherwise. That means if this card gives you only 1 extra card per turn, it either needs to cost less than Arena, or it needs to give you more options in choosing the card.
2) It shouldn't mess around with Sarkhan the Mad's abilities. That means it probably won't be a verbatim copy of Confidant's ability (even though I like the "Dark" overlap in their names.
3) With Howling Mine gone and Temple Bell spoiled, it is unlikely that a card will have you drawing additional cards. If you draw additional cards, it will be during your upkeep.
With that in mind, here's my safe design for it.
Dark Tutelage 1BB
Enchantment
Skip your draw step.
At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top two cards of your library. For each of those cards, pay 2 life or put them on the bottom of your library.
This simplifies the Sylvan Library design by skipping the complicated "cards drawn this turn" part, and it avoids the "beginning of the draw step" reference. I doubt it will be a BBB card, because Phylactery Lich already has that rare mana cost in this set. 1BB or even 1B (referencing both Confidant and Library) would be more likely (although 1B pushes the power envelope).
Holy obscure set. Well that set came out in 1995, which did not stop Wizards from suggesting it as a format name for Type 1.5 back in 2004. If they think it's still in the running, then we should definitely think the same. Besides, it's too good of a word to just toss away because of some horribly esoteric expansion.
About the name for the format, what about something not refering time but instead something geographical... maybe something as "Frontier" or something in that line, sorry, my main language is not english, so I´m not of any help here.
I really like that name. It hints both at the historic nature of the changes happening between Urza's Destiny and Mercadian Masques, AND at the fact that it's a groundbreaking Eternal Format. I will certainly support a format that is named "Frontier". Heck, it even sounds cool.
Back when 6ED was in Standard, Cursed Totem was a huge sideboard card. Pithing Needle drops for 1 less, but Cursed Totem works for ALL such abilities, not just those of a named permanent.
Cursed Totem only works for creatures. Pithing Needle targets everything. The only thing that Totem has on Needle is that it stops mana abilities, but the only creatures which this would effect are Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch. Given that Totem doesn't see any play whatsoever in Legacy, I do not think that a new format would change the game enough to warrant its inclusion in decks.
Recall, too, though earlier on when there was stuff worth recursing. Bottom line is that it's blue's Regrowth... and can become more.
Another bad card. There are so many better recursion engines that see play. It's just too darn expensive as a 3 mana single regrowth or a 5 mana double regrowth.
Forbidden Crypt, meanwhile, cries out to be broken in decks like Dredge, but built in new and different ways.
An awesome card that sadly sees no play. Like a quasi-Yawgmoth's Will but more expensive and more limited. This might certainly see play, but it does not really warrant allowing the whole set.
Ancestral Memories will abuse the library-to-graveyard mechanic (and I don't just mean with Narcomoeba). A deck is bound to emerge.
It's legal in 7th Edition.
Jokulhaups, Ankh, and Vein are all playable. Indeed, they are just plain good cards. But again, do they warrant allowing an entire set that comes so early? Do they warrant the inclusion of 4-5 cards that will assuredly be added to the banlist? My answer remains no. The cards in 6th edition represent an era of Magic that is NOT the Masques era onwards. These were not cards that were tested by pro players in tandem with R&D. Stuff like Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Flash, and Goblin Recruiter should never see the light of day. Stuff like Doomsday and Enlightened Tutor would add to the format, but maybe in a degenerate way (depending on Wizards' definition of 'degenerate'). The format needs to float on popularity, and one of the ways to ensure that is to have as small of a banlist as possible. That means avoiding an auto 4 inclusion if 6th gets added to the mix.
I do not personally know Mr. Verhey, so I cannot speak to his integrity or honor in creating this format and trying to spearhead it. I can, however, speak for myself as an advocate of the format. I have been advocating for Overextended since the rumor first arose last summer (July 2010, I believe). While there might be some people who are showboating in trying to get on board/get noticed by Wizards (maybe this is Mr. Verhey and maybe this is not), there are DEFINITELY players like myself who don't give a darn about that.
We just want Overextended to exist because the format is fun, accessible, new, and innovative. I would be willing to bet that Mr. Verhey is one such player. Even if he is not, there is no reason to cast suspicion at those who want to work alongside him to make the format a reality. Some of us are genuine about this business.
-ktkenshinx-
I am not sure where you are getting your information from. Ichorid/Dredge decks were certainly a force in Extended in 2005 and 2006, but all of the versions used Therapy/Psychatog/Wonder/Chrome Mox/Putrid Imp/etc. and a variety of the Odyssey (not Onslaught) cards that I mentioned. The deck never existed in any form without those cards, at least not at any competitive level. Modern does not have those cards and therefore does not really have the same explosiveness of Dredge as before.
Moreover, graveyard hate is abundant in the post dredge world. Crypt, Leyline, Ravenous Trap, Relic, and a variety of other cards are sideboard staples in any metagame. This would all contribute to a taming of Dredge in the format. The GGT ban does not need to be a part of that.
I agree. A forum to discuss archetypes of the new format would be awesome, both for increasing awareness about Modern, and for showing support for the format (not to mention figuring out the new metagame).
Many people are probably going to start with this attitude, but it really is not warranted. Legacy has a high entrance cost to start playing. The main staples are all Jace TMS price levels or higher, and to play decks without them just uncompetitive (Force of Will, Wasteland, and Duals, I am looking at you). The format also has a problem with the Reserve List which will always hang over it. Modern does not share these problems.
Just like Wizards recently printed the new tournament-competitive decks with 2 Stoneforge Mystics in them, to increase competitive players, so too can they do that with the non-reserve list staples of a Modern format. This format would not replace Legacy, but it would be a cheaper and distinct Eternal format with its own fun metagame and strategies.
-ktkenshinx-
I agree that Dredge is certainly one of the omnipresent boogymen of any format it inhabits. But this format is really an exception to this. Even without the Troll banning, Dredge just loses so darn much from its core decklist that it needs to undergo major changes to remain viable. Here is a list of what Dredge loses from its optimal incarnation:
-Careful Study
-Putrid Imp (Major loss)
-Tireless Tribe
-Breakthrough
-Ichorid
-Cabal Therapy (MAJOR loss)
-Lion's Eye Diamond (Major loss)
-Cephalid Coliseum (ENORMOUS LOSS)
A lot of those cards are impossible to replace in the current Modern metagame. Even with GGT still around, Dredge just loses all of its early game explosiveness from the Odyseey Block graveyard/discard cards. GGT could safely be unbanned to create a far slower and far more tame version of Dredge than currently exists in Legacy, or than ever existed in any metagame.
All decks are going to have some kind of graveyard hatred in their sideboards. The newer version of Dredge (with GGT but without all of its most important explosive components) would be the right speed to compete in the Modern metagame.
-ktkenshinx-
There is a lot of fear about Hypergenesis in this format, and most of it is unwarranted. The deck has quite a few weaknesses that most other archetypes can exploit. These include, but are not limited to, turn 1 or 2 Duress/Thoughtseize/Inquisition, Chalice of the Void at 0, countermagic (Mana Leak, Spell Pierce, Cryptic Command, Negate), Blood Moon/Magus of the Moon, Meddling Mage, and a variety of other options.
Also, HG is not as consistently explosive and unbeatable as are other decks. With an optimal hand, sure, it can effectively establish a turn 3 win. But in many games, with its lack of low mana hand fixers that other combo decks rely on, HG can be its own worst enemy. I played HG for months, and I had many frustrating games where my hand or my creatures in it were just not good enough to establish a dominant board position.
The deck will definitely be a contender, but there are many tools to stop it. It will not be broken, and it will be a healthy addition to the format.
-ktkenshinx-
The same goes for Aggro, given that most of the best anti-aggro cards are present in the format. Sadly, Swords to Plowshares will not be a Modern staple, but other than that, the format loses none of its removal. Force of Will is also conspicuously absent, but given the similar absence of Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, and Cabal Ritual (amongst others), the combo decks will not have the raw explosiveness of Legacy archetypes.
Overall, Modern Magic will probably be a few turns slower than Legacy, many turns faster than Standard, and much more diverse and innovative than Extended.
-ktkenshinx-
Agreed. The decking combo is enough in and of itself to win.
I just don't understand what you are trying to say here. Your over-representation of a barely played card if anything shows that you know less about Legacy than you claim. I have designed this deck with the current big names of the format in mind with an eye towards beating them (Zoo, Merfolk, NO CounterTop, New Horizons). While the SCG metagame does not represent the entire world Legacy metagame, it definitely represents the American metgame (where I happen to be), and it definitely informs player decisions abroad. I also do not see where you think you were being "politely helpful". That would have been saying "What does this deck do about forced draw effects?" instead of "You don't know anything about the format, and I do, so let me enlighten you." Addressing flaws is a key process of deckbuilding, as is bringing them up, but not in the way that you have done so.
And as to the overextended point, I really do not see how that is either relevant or helpful, especially because I haven't mentioned it at all in this thread. Helping with deckbuilding is valuable, but random trolling is not.
This is an excellent objection that has an easy solution. Let's assume you combo out on turn 5-6. Your opponent will probably have 5-6 mana in play, a few of which are green. Prior to comboing out, use Mind Over Matter itself to tap as many of their lands/Hierarchs as possible. Once you have done so, end the phase and move to the next one. With the opponent's mana pools now empty, their Krosan Grips that they will inevitably draw will just sit in their hands. This is the most elegant solution to the problem, and it is built into the combo itself.
Thopter-based decks go off a lot later with a control shell. Given this deck's use of Enlightened Tutor, it would be incredibly easy to add in the standard CounterTop package, making 4 of our main deck components tutorable with E-Tutor.
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My biggest worries are not these cards, all of which are used in game 2-3 (with the exception of Stifle in some Merfolk/Tempo Thresh builds, and Needle in some builds running Trinket Mage like Tezzerator and Painter/Stone, although those are not widely played decks). I am far more concerned about the Qasali Pridemage in all 3 games that Zoo brings to the table. A turn 2 Pridemage needs to be killed before I can even cast the Bell, let alone MOM. The most effective solution is just that; kill the Pridemage with Swords or Path, both of which this UW deck could run. Is it enough? Between that, Daze, FoW, and CounterTop, it probably is. But testing would answer that question better than speculation.
The UUUU in MOM is problematic, and definitely requires some creative solutions. Show and Tell is obviously one such solution, an excellent one that gives us an alternate win condition with Emrakul AND accelerates our primary win. But we can't reliably have this card at all time, so we need other options. Here are some options:
1) Lotus Bloom: Could be used with Tezzeret, especially given Tezz's synergy with both Sensei's Divining Top and Temple Bell.
2) Carpet of Flowers: Against a lot of Legacy decks, this gives some huge acceleration starting on turn 1. But against Zoo and Goblins it's a totally dead draw. A bit too inconsistent for my taste.
3) Mystic Gate: Filters our mana, but gives us Wasteland vulnerability. Has an awesome combo with MOM for lots of blue mana but sadly that actually requires the MOM in play...
4) Saprazzan Skerry: Accelerates us into the right colors. The earliest you could combo out with Skerry would be around turn 4 assuming a turn 1 Skerry, turn 2 island, turn 3 island, turn 4 ancient tomb/city of traitors or something to that effect. That's not bad persay, especially on the play, but it's not great either.
5) High Tide: Someone on another forum suggested the Solidarity staple to help combo out. It's not a bad option, but it has us winning at about the same time that the Skerry version wins: turn 4.
Those are some of the options that come to mind. Thoughts on these and other ones?
The most important difference that I see is the ability to get both pieces with Enlightened Tutor, and the fact that both combo pieces are useful on their own. Temple Bell is not a bad card, even with the reciprocal card draw. MOM without the Bell is of course pretty darn powerful. Hive Mind/Pact of the Titan without the other piece, however, is basically a dead draw.
Speed is definitely an issue with the UUUU in the MOM cost, but then again there are plenty of "slow" decks in Legacy that are competitive. We don't need to win right away to play against the fast decks. We just need to keep a stable board state and defend our combo pieces. Against some decks, that's pretty easy (Goblins and Dredge for instance strike me as easy matchups). Against other decks, it's easier said than done (Zoo and Merfolk). But given that this combo only takes up 8 slots, and has overlap in the enchantment/artifact department, you have a lot of extra slots to protect your combo from the standard Legacy perils.
-ktkenshinx-
Below is a list of the top decks from the most recent SCG Open tournaments that I compiled for a different forum. The data is essentially 100% accurate, but I might have missed a Zoo, Merfolk, or CounterTop entry here and there.
Merfolk: 17
ZOO: 15
CounterTop Variations: 15
Reanimator: 11
Goblins: 5
New Horizons: 5
ANT: 4
Belcher: 3
Landstill: 3
Blue Land: 3
Team America: 2
MBC: 2
Eva Green: 2
Aggro Loam: 2
Angel Stompy: 1
Tezzerator: 1
Dredge: 1
MUC: 1
WW: 1
UW Tempo: 1
Helm of the Void: 1
Painter Stone: 1
Show and Tell: 1
Scapeshift: 1
Survival: 1
BW Aggro: 1
Mono W Stax: 1
Thopter Sword: 1
These decks can reasonably be considered representative of the Legacy metagame, although I admit that there is some variation in the European and East Asian Legacy metagames. But that said, we will notice one thing that these decks have in common. Or rather, one thing these decks do not have in common. Forced Draw Effects. Just because some decks use them, does not mean that any representative number of decks do. I would love to hear any other supposed "untruths" that you think I am making about Legacy and address those as well.
Solidarity? According to DeckCheck, there are only 7 solidarity decks that have made it to the top 8 since January 2010. Of those, only one of them actually won. It has long been considered a dead or at least dormant combo deck since the explosion of ANT, and while that might change with the Mystical Tutor banning, it has not yet come about. You even acknowledge this fact and still bring it up as counter-evidence. As to Enchantress with Stroke, I do not see a single one in all of the deck listings. The deck is certainly good and certainly posts results, but not with the Stroke addition as you suggest.
I do not mean to come off as belligerent here, but you are misrepresenting the cards, the decks, and the format as a whole. I respectfully object to your criticism and do not intend to facilitate a catty internet argument about this, but the facts are not on your side.
-ktkenshinx-
Good catch. I missed the most important part of the card (the drawing). Thank you for catching that. I have edited the above post to reflect that change.
-ktkenshinx-
Easy fix: get rid of the skipped draw step. That would retain the card's flavor AND make it more powerful without being broken.
-ktkenshinx-
Dark Tutelage
1BB
Enchantment
At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top two cards of your library. For each of those cards, pay 2 life and put them in your hand or put them on the bottom of your library.
Every combo is fragile against sideboard cards. Take ANT (Ad Naueseam Tendrils) for instance. Despite the prevalence of 4 Mindbreak Trap, Ethersworn Canonist, Gaddock Teeg, Thorn of Amethyst, and a host of other Storm hate cards, this deck enjoyed spectacular success for years (until the recent Mystical Tutor banning).
This deck could easily play through hate in a similar way. The only problematic card is Krosan Grip, and even that is just a matter of making sure your opponent cannot cast it through mana denial or removing it from the deck proactively (Extirpate, Sadistic Sacrament, Silence, Orim's Chant, etc.)
-ktkenshinx-
Servant is a creature. That means vulnerability to Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, and Gempalm Incinerator. In response to your Grindstone activation, your opponent can just kill the Servant. That forces you to try and combo on your opponent's turns, or have countermagic backup. This combo does not need that.
-ktkenshinx-
The Eldrazi titans actually hit the graveyard for a time, which means an opponent with graveyard hate (which is EVERYWHERE) in Legacy, could feasibly win if they had more cards. But a DSC endlessly cycling between hand and Library would circumvent this problem. Besides, there are no Legacy cards that force an opponent to draw, so it's not like the opponent could take advantage of you having only one card left in your library (that card being the endlessly cycling DSC).
Also, Show and Tell could serve double duty in the deck. It can a) accelerate MoM into play and b) drop your big bad Emrakul as well. This gives the deck a viable alternate win condition.
-ktkenshinx-
Mind Over Matter + Temple Bell
Temple Bell 3
Artifact
Tap: Each player draws a card
Here's how the combo works for those that do not see it:
Tap Bell
Discard a card to MoM, untap Bell
Tap Bell
Repeat...
A simple combo that should be used for one simple goal: decking your opponent. Sure, you can use the draw engine to search out an ideal hand with 50 cards in it, but then you actually have to cast those cards. Given that your opponent now has at least a half dozen counterspells between Daze and Force of Will, you do not want to get yourself in this situation.
But decking your opponent is a painfully easy goal that can be accomplished with one simple change to your deck: playing with more cards. If you use a 61+ card deck and your opponent uses a 60 card ones, you will have more cards than they will, and you will be able to win off of a series of activations of the combo. Additionally, as posters have pointed out, using Progenitus and Emrakul can keep you shuffling your cards, and keep your opponent decking himself (Xelopheris noted this immediately, and it is good to point it out in this first post).
So why is this combo potentially viable in Legacy, a format where it is notoriously difficult to make new decks and combos? Here are some reasons:
1) Only involves 2 cards.
2) Wins immediately.
3) Both pieces can be tutored for with one unbanned card, Enlightened Tutor.
4) Involves the color Blue, which means more Force of Will and Daze.
5) Both cards are useful on their own.
6) Coincides nicely with the Grim Monolith unbanning for acceleration.
What are your thoughts on this combo? It's a combo that fits a lot of criteria for a Legacy deck, and I know that there will be ideas out there involving it. Thoughts? Suggestions? Criticisms?
Combo Pieces
Mind Over Matter
Temple Bell
Darksteel Colossus (Preventing self decking, immune to graveyard hate)
Emrakul the Aeons Torn (Preventing self decking, possible Show and Tell target)
Show and Tell (Synergizes with both Mind Over Matter and Emrakul)
-ktkenshinx-
I looked over the pages of this thread to see all of the non-tutor guesses. The stuff that strikes me as consistent is below:
1) Black
2) Enchantment
3) Gives you cards
4) Makes you lose life
The "WILDLY off in outerspace" guesses are probably those involving creature control and auras, as these represented a minority of the card designs. The Sylvan Library/Dark Confidant ideas are also likely the best.
Other considerations about the card:
1) It can't be worse than Phyrexian Arena. This was not a problematic card by any means in any format, and Wizards is not so stupid to think otherwise. That means if this card gives you only 1 extra card per turn, it either needs to cost less than Arena, or it needs to give you more options in choosing the card.
2) It shouldn't mess around with Sarkhan the Mad's abilities. That means it probably won't be a verbatim copy of Confidant's ability (even though I like the "Dark" overlap in their names.
3) With Howling Mine gone and Temple Bell spoiled, it is unlikely that a card will have you drawing additional cards. If you draw additional cards, it will be during your upkeep.
With that in mind, here's my safe design for it.
Dark Tutelage
1BB
Enchantment
Skip your draw step.
At the beginning of your upkeep, look at the top two cards of your library. For each of those cards, pay 2 life or put them on the bottom of your library.
This simplifies the Sylvan Library design by skipping the complicated "cards drawn this turn" part, and it avoids the "beginning of the draw step" reference. I doubt it will be a BBB card, because Phylactery Lich already has that rare mana cost in this set. 1BB or even 1B (referencing both Confidant and Library) would be more likely (although 1B pushes the power envelope).
-ktkenshinx-
Holy obscure set. Well that set came out in 1995, which did not stop Wizards from suggesting it as a format name for Type 1.5 back in 2004. If they think it's still in the running, then we should definitely think the same. Besides, it's too good of a word to just toss away because of some horribly esoteric expansion.
I really like that name. It hints both at the historic nature of the changes happening between Urza's Destiny and Mercadian Masques, AND at the fact that it's a groundbreaking Eternal Format. I will certainly support a format that is named "Frontier". Heck, it even sounds cool.
Cursed Totem only works for creatures. Pithing Needle targets everything. The only thing that Totem has on Needle is that it stops mana abilities, but the only creatures which this would effect are Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch. Given that Totem doesn't see any play whatsoever in Legacy, I do not think that a new format would change the game enough to warrant its inclusion in decks.
Another bad card. There are so many better recursion engines that see play. It's just too darn expensive as a 3 mana single regrowth or a 5 mana double regrowth.
An awesome card that sadly sees no play. Like a quasi-Yawgmoth's Will but more expensive and more limited. This might certainly see play, but it does not really warrant allowing the whole set.
It's legal in 7th Edition.
Jokulhaups, Ankh, and Vein are all playable. Indeed, they are just plain good cards. But again, do they warrant allowing an entire set that comes so early? Do they warrant the inclusion of 4-5 cards that will assuredly be added to the banlist? My answer remains no. The cards in 6th edition represent an era of Magic that is NOT the Masques era onwards. These were not cards that were tested by pro players in tandem with R&D. Stuff like Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Flash, and Goblin Recruiter should never see the light of day. Stuff like Doomsday and Enlightened Tutor would add to the format, but maybe in a degenerate way (depending on Wizards' definition of 'degenerate'). The format needs to float on popularity, and one of the ways to ensure that is to have as small of a banlist as possible. That means avoiding an auto 4 inclusion if 6th gets added to the mix.
-ktkenshinx-