Quote from sonicqazDredge existed (and won) several MAJOR tournaments without Onslaught cards, and all of the cards you mentioned.
They still have dread return into Iona, off of Bridge from Below, with Narcomoeba and Bloodghast.
Legacy Dredge and Extended Dredge had slightly different game plans.
Quote from Typh00nDefinitely not in this thread, but I'd like to have a forum for this format where we can post decklists and talk about other stuff regarding this format.
Quote from PnBootswhy not just play legacy lol?
Quote from sonicqaz
I dont think that Dredge is 'backbreaking' but it was ALWAYS around, and Ive read numerous articles about how Wizards doesn't like that deck. With the proper hate, its a very good matchup, but people always had to have sideboard hate for it, and when people stopped putting in hate, then it would come out of nowhere and win again.
Quote from glassthegrey the biggest question mark here is that Hypergenesis isn't on this banned list.
the initial meta for this format looks like Hypergenesis, Punishing grove zoo, and possibly treehouse as a answer to punnishing grove zoo.
Quote from uberdylanGuys, you DON'T need Jace's Erasure, Underworld Dreams, or anything like that. If you can assemble Mind over Matter and Bell, with a Darksteel in your deck, you win. If you can't, then Dreams, Erasure, etc., are dead draws.
Quote from BelgarethYour correct in the fact metagames differ , SCG represents a very small % of worldwide tournaments.
Secondly the moment a new deck establishes itself the metagame changes to accomodate it.
Thirdly you did not say " forced draw effects are not commonly played in legacy" you said that there are none in legacy.
This is not catty more drawing attention to the mistake which in itself is a flaw in the proposed deck and needs to be catered for.
You don't come off as beligerent, more arrogant but that's fine as my aim was to politely help you due to the fact you come off as knowing very little about legacy and more interested in dumbing down the format to your preffered neo-extended format.
Quote from ~Tilde~I like the concept, but there are a few drawbacks to this deck.
1) Your opponent's going to draw their deck and have it in hand, while you will likely be somewhat card limited. If they can find some way to prevent death by decking, you're toast.
Quote from Morningstar81 »
2) This doen't win immediately in the strict sense of the word. It takes around 100 steps of untap and draw to win, and your opponent will gradually draw his entire deck in the process. You'll lose if he draws into Krosan Grip and has mana available to cast it, which means you will almost always have to dump your hand to tap out your opponent in games 2 and 3. This in turn means that you can't spend too many resources accelerating into the combo and if you are forced into a counter war to resolve Mind Over Matter, you won't have resources to tap out your opponent and will lose to Grip.
2) You're going to have some difficulty getting that combo going by turn 2 (generally most Legacy decks can gain board dominance by turn 2) I figure it'd take 5-6 of your opening 7-10 cards to fully get it running by then. Doable, but not efficient.
3) Lots of stuff available in Legacy that allows your opponent to short circuit your win-con. (Stifle, Abolish and Pithing Needle come to mind)
Quote from Morningstar811) While it is true that the combo only involves 2 cards, it has a total cost of 9 mana and more importantly a critical cost of 6 mana 4 of which blue (for Mind Over Matter) which takes away much of its viability. You can't efficiently accelerate into 2UUUU, and you'll most likely have to play the combo cards in different turns, making you vulnerable to removal (Qasali Pridemage, Krosan Grip, etc).
This means that building a fast combo deck out of this is not very viable. You're better off going for a combo-control Enlightened Tutor-based deck similar to the Thopter-Sword CounterTop builds. But even in such a build, I can think of few reasons why I'd opt for a 6 mana card to win the game, when I could go for the Thopter combo or for Painter-Grindstone.
Last but not least, this seems strictly worse than the Hive Mind combo, which also has a critical cost of 6 mana, but is much easier to accelerate into (Grim Monolith helps it more than this combo), only requires resolving Hive Mind and wins when it does.
Quote from giallarihorn »IMO, it's too slow for competitive Legacy, since you'd be facing down Zoo and the assorted. I could be wrong on that count, though.
Quote from BelgarethYet again your wrong about cards in legacy I'm not meaning to pick on you but this is like the 3rd time you've stated a clear untruth about decks/cards in legacy.
Solidarity which while no longer played much did reign as a tier 1 legacy deck for a fair period of time and has a winning condition that involved forcing your opponent to draw cards after you got them low.
Enchanteress which is also on the rise has the alternate win condition of using a large stroke of genius to make opponent draw library.
Quote from Darksequencemmm so you can basicly scry2 every turn at the cost of 2 life for each card you wanna keep on top .... doesn't really sound like vintage material to me
and actually quite playable in EDH. edit: Hope ur right
Quote from SpekterThis is too weak with both the skipped draw and the 2 life cost. Arena lets you draw an additional card for 1 life. In the very least, and it would still be a nerf, have it so that each card you draw costs you 1 life. The scrying aspect is cool, but for every card you scry you lose card advantage - it would very rarely be worth bottom-decking a card instead of just drawing it for eventual use later.
Quote from FRAGM3NTOf course the combo is exceptionally fragile, especially against common sideboard cards.
Pithing Needle and Krosan Grip all hate you so much.
Quote from WolfwoodIsn't this strictly worse than Painter Servant though? Of course, I say that as an MTGO player where Imperial Servant is only $3... but still
Quote from Jack_from_NCSome of the guesses here where very close, but some of them were WILDLY off in outerspace.
Quote from fnordhttp://wiki.mtgsalvation.com/article/Renaissance
Quote from Sanduleak
About the name for the format, what about something not refering time but instead something geographical... maybe something as "Frontier" or something in that line, sorry, my main language is not english, so I´m not of any help here.
Quote from Jimz
Back when 6ED was in Standard, Cursed Totem was a huge sideboard card. Pithing Needle drops for 1 less, but Cursed Totem works for ALL such abilities, not just those of a named permanent.
Recall, too, though earlier on when there was stuff worth recursing. Bottom line is that it's blue's Regrowth... and can become more.
Forbidden Crypt, meanwhile, cries out to be broken in decks like Dredge, but built in new and different ways.
Ancestral Memories will abuse the library-to-graveyard mechanic (and I don't just mean with Narcomoeba). A deck is bound to emerge.
Quote from Juzam_LoverType 1 MonoBlack deck could bin Phyrexian Negators for these monsters.
So many tools for Black to return to Vintage... I'm quite excited!!
Quote from Pyrogoat »I can't see this getting played in legacy or extended... It's just an easy two-for one for your opponent... it's not like people aren't prepared to kill artifacts.
Quote from Vacrix »Come on guys its not that strong. It might see play in some storm man plans or suicide aggro. MBA is pushing your luck unless you play a lot of artifacts.
Also, STP and PtE haven't gone on vacation. They still eat Lich alive.