Consuming Vapors was much better than Gatekeeper... ...it didnt clog up my 3cc slot like gatekeeper did.
Yeah, I've been having the same issues with Gatekeeper (as well as the 3cc slot) and I'm going to give Vapors a shot MD. I've never been disappointed with Vapors when I side it in so next logical step would be to MD it.
Both Collar and Sparkmage are good separate. My logic has been that the Collar works with SGC and Seddy well enough to merit 3 slots. While the Sparkmage can only really ping manadorks and turn Bolts into 4 damage, hence the two of. Also, the Collar rarely sits around unused, I've even put it on a Carpit a couple of times.
So to fit the 5 new cards, I took out the following: 2 Gatekeepers, 1 Jace, 1 Land, and 1 Terminate. Doesn't hurt the core of the deck any. It's also possible to drop a SGC instead of the Jace.
The RDW match up greatly increases (which is real important to me). I've been 40-60 with this build versus 20-80 with a standard build pre-board.
NLB there's really no change except that coming back from the brink is a bit easier with a Collar'd SGC. Sparkmage is insane against their ramp and if you can get one down turn 3 on the play, you can pretty much count on a win.
Vs. Jund though it drops the pre-board percentage by a bit. Post board things return to normal. I wouldn't recommend trying this deck in a Jund heavy meta.
I'd still say that it needs to be sideboard, not maindeck.
That should be a meta-game call. If you are expecting a lot of NLB and U/W/x control then a maindeck Bloodwitch is going to take you far. If you are expecting Jund and tons of non White removal then main deck SJoI makes more sense.
Personally, Siege-Gang Commander fills that spot in my maindeck. I've been able to come back and/or lock the win with him more than I ever have with SJoI. When I used to run the Sphinx he more often end up keeping my opponents finisher at bay instead of swinging to win. The 6 CC makes him a real drag, I'd rather be gaining board position on turn 5 with SGC.
So I've been having a real tough time with RDW and Vamps. Pretty much going 0-Infinity against RDW and 3-7 to Vamps over the last couple of months.
Hell's Thunder has been an absolute nightmare for me and of course this last FNM I get matched up against Vamps twice and RDW once. I'll admit I made a couple of huge play errors in the Vamps games by not playing around Highborn properly, but the RDW match up feels like all I can do is lose.
SO, I'm looking for some Sideboard help to improve those match ups. My deck is the Seddy/Blightning version that Thomas Ma played in PTQ Denver. This was my SB I used yesterday:
I tried the Assassins and they just never worked they way I'd like. The 3cc slot is already clogged up and I only sided them in when Gatekeeper's removal wasn't enough. I think Nighthawk is the way to go.
Relic worked out nice, except when I Crueled after nuking the graves... And it also diminished Thought Hemo's value a bit.
Has anyone thought about giving Goblin Guide a try? He can do quite a few things for us.
beat early
chump
set up an alpha strike with some specters from the graveyard
give us a peek into the future (maybe you shouldn't bolt that Lotus Cobra right now)
adds flexibility to Jace 2.0 - if your opponent reveals a dead card then you can brainstorm or bounce with confidence
helps us get to the mid/late game
I'm going to give the guide a chance tonight...
Only problem with that is if we are Using Jace to keep them of mana, pretty much makes Seas worthless, and if they are pulling lands it gives them something to chuck to Specter besides that awesome spell they have in hand... Blightning is much better in that slot.
The problem I see with Gatekeeper is that with UW and the Spreading Seas package being so popular, managing to have BBB early on or even on turns 5 or 6 might be a difficult feat to accomplish.
Sure you need BBB for Cruel anyway, but that's way later into the game... Not saying no, but i'm a bit skeptical.
All our Dual/Man Lands produce Black, in fact the only lands that don't are our Islands and Mountains. A smart Spreading Seas player would keep us off Red or shut down our Tri lands. BBB isn't that hard to achieve.
Siege-Gang in action in Grixis Control... Never thought about trying him to be honest, although I was an advocate for Sedraxis, Siege-Gang never was a possibility. Glad someone made it work!
Let us know how it tests out, I'm curious how he works out. Also, with the increasing amount of control, discard in any form is gold. Most of that Denver top 8 was U/W control, that's why all his MD discard paid off.
I just wanted to chime in on the Comet Storm topic...
I ran one in place of an Earthquake and I have to say, OMG the card is sick! Every game I got to play it I won for the simple fact that it wiped the other side of the board, including BSA and a couple other fliers that were ruining my day.
It definately belongs, if not MD then in your SB to swap out vs. decks that run a lot of fliers.
Here is the deck i made last night after losing with a previous build that i tried to do my own way. This is a list that is from most of the options found in this topic and some found while testing that worked pretty good. I found that aura narlid with exalted and even one aura attached is awesome. (Note: Need to get 3 more Groves, and the Refuges will turn into Groves i think. Also i currently only have one Sigil and will be replacing the 1 copy of WoO with the second Sigil when i get one.)
Just test out the Guard Duty before you commit. There are creatures out there that you wish couldn't block: Vampire Nighthawk, Rhox Warmonk, Baneslayer Angel just to name a few. It is real easy to cast after drawing one with Spiritdancer, just make sure it can handle your meta before you commit
Wild nacatl is a horrendous card choice for this deck. Use something like quasali pridemage or student of warfare.
I over looked Pridemage, though it seems more like a SB choice or a meta MD. Nacatl is not as bad as it looks. It gets early damage through and it can spread out your opponents early removal that would other wise be used on the aura creatures. I'm not looking for Nacatl to 'go all the way' just provide a screen until the aura package can take over.
Gaurd duty is subpar as well. Use crystallization which is better than pacifism -- e.g.: they can't jace their crystallized slayer back to their hand.
I chose Guard Duty for the 1cc as it's easier to put down after drawing it off a Spiritdancer. Crystallization and Pacifism should be the 'staple' choice by far, but I am attempting to try a path less traveled.
You also have no reason to not be running stirring wildwood in a deck that only runs 16 fragile creatures... It's just so bad that every junk and boss deck runs 4.
Too be fair this deck is nothing like Junk or Boss. So far not once did I look down on my lands and wish one was a manland. I never said it was 'bad', just the worst out of the 5... I'd rather have any of the other 4.
Quote from MavericHunterX »
one thing though can you tell me the sideboard you came up with if you did come up with one? i was trying to follow every sideboard suggestion in this topic and came up with:
2 Day of Judgment
3 Pithing Needle
3 Celestial Purge
3 Oblivion Ring
4 Tajuru Preserver / Windstorm / Slingbow Trap
I usually don't post my SB 'cause my meta is wonky. No Jund, no solid U/W control, Allies Vamps and homebrews run rampant so that's why I don't usually share my SB. But here it is, it looks a lot like what you've come up with:
I think we're all in agreement that this deck has at least two styles: Control and Aggro.
My focus is on the G/W Mid-Aggro style. There's definitely core cards that must be included as well as a build structure that should be followed/discussed:
My take on this is expanding the threat density to give us better early/mid game board position as well as thin out the oppositions removal focus. The Spiritdancers and Gnarlids are key components obviously. The 8 other slots should be a combination of any of the following:
Mesa Enchantress: Choosing to include her will come down to play style more than anything else. Personally I feel she is too slow and offers little in terms of treat density. Our Auras don't pump her up enough and her 1WW cost makes her less desirable to drop early.
Birds of Paradise: Mana Birds are nice as they offer a faster, smoother start and can attack with some Aura's attached to them. However, that's all they bring and if all you have are Canopy Cover and Pacifism for Aura's in hand, they simply end up being manadorks...
Wall of Omens: A very nice defensive stall card that really doesn't need much explanation. Especially if you've ever played with Wall of Blossoms.
Loam Lion / Wild Nacatl: Now we get into unproven grounds. This is the direction I feel the deck needs to go as either of these two offer cheap, fast, reliable beats and give our opponent something to deal with if we still don't have our Aura package online yet. I'd say, go with either of the two. The Lion's +1/+2 isn't necessarily better than the Nacatl's +1/+1 since it still keeps them both in bolt range and putting and aura on either has the same effect.
Student of Warfare: The only down side I see is the mana obligation that comes with Levelers. Effectively you get a 3/3 First Striker for WWW (or W with Echo: WW). So it will be a play style choice: Are you going to play with Wall of Omens and can afford to wait for the level tokens? Or are you going to be aggressive and push early damage?
This package is very different from whats being currently used, it gives us 8 auras to put on 16 creatures. That balance is testing out to be perfect so far as with the other set ups that ran 4 Hyena Umbras, 4 Canopy Covers and 3-4 Spider Umbras with a 12 creature package. Sure you can put multiple auras on a creature, but when you don't have a creature to put those multiple auras on what do you do? So with the balance shifted, we are more likely to draw into a threat than a aura, because don't forget, auras alone are not threats
Guard Duty: I've chosen this over Crystallization and Pacifism for two reasons: It's a 1 CC that's easily cast after drawing into one from a Spiritdancer and in worse case you can put it on one of your guys and still be able to block. Also consider that Gnarlid gets big fast and becomes very hard to block after 5/5 and a Dancer with Canopy Cover/Hyena Umbra on it is also hard to stop more than once with a wall
Trace of Abundance: It's an aura. That's why I prefer it over BoP. It can be used to protect our Sunpetal Groves from those nasty Tectonic Edges as well as turn a spreaded island into something useful.
For thought: Sigil of the Nayan Gods Might be worth testing. It cycles and with an expanded Creature package it could double up a gnarlid real easily. I think in the end though, the 1GW cost might hurt too much, not to mention take up a valuable slot.
The best Green Counterspell is absolutely essential for protecting the Aura package from the likes of Path, Terminate and Bolt. The kicker isn't too shabby either.
Either will fit nicely and both are equally mana intense. I like the Sigil better simply for its ability to be around after a DoJ and for fly control since Spider Umbra is no longer in.
With just one Trace on the board Uril is castable, also two Mountains can easily be fit into the mana for him and the Nacatl ability
The curve on this deck looks like a ski jump. 20 lands should ensure a decent start. I was running 22 initially and still finding too many lands. I don't see any point in running Stirring Wildwood, it's the worst manland out of the bunch and is really not needed.
The problems I ran into were the low threat density this deck packs. When its running the way it should, its hard to stop. However, with only 8 true threats, it sputters out when you don't draw them or draw them late.
I too had a problem with Bloodwitch since my SB removal was all White and all targeted. Good call on the trap, since my meta is still swarming with Bloodwitches.
I've been thinking of adding Loam Lion or Wild Nacatl to expand the threat density as well as Sigil of the Empty Throne to help finish if needed. And in this case, I will be dropping the Edges since they didn't help at all and screwed me more than helped me. Terramorphic is going to be a 4 of to help the Lion/Nacatl get that boost.
I really want to see this deck work as G/W midrange and I really don't want to splash U or R just to see it compete.
Yeah, I've been having the same issues with Gatekeeper (as well as the 3cc slot) and I'm going to give Vapors a shot MD. I've never been disappointed with Vapors when I side it in so next logical step would be to MD it.
3x Siege-Gang Commander
2x Cunning Sparkmage
1x Gatekeeper of Malakir
3x Basilisk Collar
4x Blightning
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Terminate
4x Spreading Seas
2x Staggershock
2x Cruel Ultimatum
4x Crumbling Necropolis
4x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Scalding Tarn
3x Drowned Catacomb
3x Dragonskull Summit
1x Lavaclaw Reaches
4x Swamp
2x Island
2x Mountain
2x Malakir Bloodwitch
3x Doom Blade
3x Countersquall
2x Thought Hemorrhage
2x Consuming Vapors
3x OPEN SLOT
Both Collar and Sparkmage are good separate. My logic has been that the Collar works with SGC and Seddy well enough to merit 3 slots. While the Sparkmage can only really ping manadorks and turn Bolts into 4 damage, hence the two of. Also, the Collar rarely sits around unused, I've even put it on a Carpit a couple of times.
So to fit the 5 new cards, I took out the following: 2 Gatekeepers, 1 Jace, 1 Land, and 1 Terminate. Doesn't hurt the core of the deck any. It's also possible to drop a SGC instead of the Jace.
The RDW match up greatly increases (which is real important to me). I've been 40-60 with this build versus 20-80 with a standard build pre-board.
NLB there's really no change except that coming back from the brink is a bit easier with a Collar'd SGC. Sparkmage is insane against their ramp and if you can get one down turn 3 on the play, you can pretty much count on a win.
Vs. Jund though it drops the pre-board percentage by a bit. Post board things return to normal. I wouldn't recommend trying this deck in a Jund heavy meta.
And I didn't get a chance to test against U/W yet
That should be a meta-game call. If you are expecting a lot of NLB and U/W/x control then a maindeck Bloodwitch is going to take you far. If you are expecting Jund and tons of non White removal then main deck SJoI makes more sense.
Personally, Siege-Gang Commander fills that spot in my maindeck. I've been able to come back and/or lock the win with him more than I ever have with SJoI. When I used to run the Sphinx he more often end up keeping my opponents finisher at bay instead of swinging to win. The 6 CC makes him a real drag, I'd rather be gaining board position on turn 5 with SGC.
Hell's Thunder has been an absolute nightmare for me and of course this last FNM I get matched up against Vamps twice and RDW once. I'll admit I made a couple of huge play errors in the Vamps games by not playing around Highborn properly, but the RDW match up feels like all I can do is lose.
SO, I'm looking for some Sideboard help to improve those match ups. My deck is the Seddy/Blightning version that Thomas Ma played in PTQ Denver. This was my SB I used yesterday:
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Royal Assassin
3x Countersquall
2x Thought Hemorrage
2x Consuming Vapors
2x Malakir Bloodwitch
I tried the Assassins and they just never worked they way I'd like. The 3cc slot is already clogged up and I only sided them in when Gatekeeper's removal wasn't enough. I think Nighthawk is the way to go.
Relic worked out nice, except when I Crueled after nuking the graves... And it also diminished Thought Hemo's value a bit.
So I'm thinking this for next event:
2x Relic of Progenitus
3x Vampire Nighthawk
3x Countersquall
3x Doom Blade
2x Consuming Vapors
2x Malakir Bloodwitch
There won't be a 'Grixis' after rotation... Good bye:
Sedraxis Specter
Blightning
Crumbling Necropolis
Terminate
Double Negative
and of course the Grandaddy of the deck: Cruel Ultimatum
Only problem with that is if we are Using Jace to keep them of mana, pretty much makes Seas worthless, and if they are pulling lands it gives them something to chuck to Specter besides that awesome spell they have in hand... Blightning is much better in that slot.
http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/events.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/amsterdam10ptq/0508portland
Third Place
All our Dual/Man Lands produce Black, in fact the only lands that don't are our Islands and Mountains. A smart Spreading Seas player would keep us off Red or shut down our Tri lands. BBB isn't that hard to achieve.
Let us know how it tests out, I'm curious how he works out. Also, with the increasing amount of control, discard in any form is gold. Most of that Denver top 8 was U/W control, that's why all his MD discard paid off.
I ran one in place of an Earthquake and I have to say, OMG the card is sick! Every game I got to play it I won for the simple fact that it wiped the other side of the board, including BSA and a couple other fliers that were ruining my day.
It definately belongs, if not MD then in your SB to swap out vs. decks that run a lot of fliers.
And yes, I run 4 Bolts and 4 Terminates
Just test out the Guard Duty before you commit. There are creatures out there that you wish couldn't block: Vampire Nighthawk, Rhox Warmonk, Baneslayer Angel just to name a few. It is real easy to cast after drawing one with Spiritdancer, just make sure it can handle your meta before you commit
I over looked Pridemage, though it seems more like a SB choice or a meta MD. Nacatl is not as bad as it looks. It gets early damage through and it can spread out your opponents early removal that would other wise be used on the aura creatures. I'm not looking for Nacatl to 'go all the way' just provide a screen until the aura package can take over.
I chose Guard Duty for the 1cc as it's easier to put down after drawing it off a Spiritdancer. Crystallization and Pacifism should be the 'staple' choice by far, but I am attempting to try a path less traveled.
Too be fair this deck is nothing like Junk or Boss. So far not once did I look down on my lands and wish one was a manland. I never said it was 'bad', just the worst out of the 5... I'd rather have any of the other 4.
I usually don't post my SB 'cause my meta is wonky. No Jund, no solid U/W control, Allies Vamps and homebrews run rampant so that's why I don't usually share my SB. But here it is, it looks a lot like what you've come up with:
2 Pithing Needle
3 Day of Judgement
3 Tajuru Preserver
3 Path to Exile
3 Slingbow Trap
Eel Umbra doesn't stop Path or Bounce.
My focus is on the G/W Mid-Aggro style. There's definitely core cards that must be included as well as a build structure that should be followed/discussed:
4x Aura Gnarlid
8x Others
My take on this is expanding the threat density to give us better early/mid game board position as well as thin out the oppositions removal focus. The Spiritdancers and Gnarlids are key components obviously. The 8 other slots should be a combination of any of the following:
Mesa Enchantress: Choosing to include her will come down to play style more than anything else. Personally I feel she is too slow and offers little in terms of treat density. Our Auras don't pump her up enough and her 1WW cost makes her less desirable to drop early.
Birds of Paradise: Mana Birds are nice as they offer a faster, smoother start and can attack with some Aura's attached to them. However, that's all they bring and if all you have are Canopy Cover and Pacifism for Aura's in hand, they simply end up being manadorks...
Wall of Omens: A very nice defensive stall card that really doesn't need much explanation. Especially if you've ever played with Wall of Blossoms.
Loam Lion / Wild Nacatl: Now we get into unproven grounds. This is the direction I feel the deck needs to go as either of these two offer cheap, fast, reliable beats and give our opponent something to deal with if we still don't have our Aura package online yet. I'd say, go with either of the two. The Lion's +1/+2 isn't necessarily better than the Nacatl's +1/+1 since it still keeps them both in bolt range and putting and aura on either has the same effect.
Student of Warfare: The only down side I see is the mana obligation that comes with Levelers. Effectively you get a 3/3 First Striker for WWW (or W with Echo: WW). So it will be a play style choice: Are you going to play with Wall of Omens and can afford to wait for the level tokens? Or are you going to be aggressive and push early damage?
4x Canopy Cover
4x Trace of Abundance
4x Guard Duty
This package is very different from whats being currently used, it gives us 8 auras to put on 16 creatures. That balance is testing out to be perfect so far as with the other set ups that ran 4 Hyena Umbras, 4 Canopy Covers and 3-4 Spider Umbras with a 12 creature package. Sure you can put multiple auras on a creature, but when you don't have a creature to put those multiple auras on what do you do? So with the balance shifted, we are more likely to draw into a threat than a aura, because don't forget, auras alone are not threats
Guard Duty: I've chosen this over Crystallization and Pacifism for two reasons: It's a 1 CC that's easily cast after drawing into one from a Spiritdancer and in worse case you can put it on one of your guys and still be able to block. Also consider that Gnarlid gets big fast and becomes very hard to block after 5/5 and a Dancer with Canopy Cover/Hyena Umbra on it is also hard to stop more than once with a wall
Trace of Abundance: It's an aura. That's why I prefer it over BoP. It can be used to protect our Sunpetal Groves from those nasty Tectonic Edges as well as turn a spreaded island into something useful.
For thought:
Sigil of the Nayan Gods Might be worth testing. It cycles and with an expanded Creature package it could double up a gnarlid real easily. I think in the end though, the 1GW cost might hurt too much, not to mention take up a valuable slot.
The best Green Counterspell is absolutely essential for protecting the Aura package from the likes of Path, Terminate and Bolt. The kicker isn't too shabby either.
Either will fit nicely and both are equally mana intense. I like the Sigil better simply for its ability to be around after a DoJ and for fly control since Spider Umbra is no longer in.
With just one Trace on the board Uril is castable, also two Mountains can easily be fit into the mana for him and the Nacatl ability
4x Terramorphic Expanse
7x Plains
5x Forest
The curve on this deck looks like a ski jump. 20 lands should ensure a decent start. I was running 22 initially and still finding too many lands. I don't see any point in running Stirring Wildwood, it's the worst manland out of the bunch and is really not needed.
So I end up with this current build:
4x Aura Gnarlid
4x Wild Nacatl
4x Loam Lion
4x Hyena Umbra
4x Canopy Cover
4x Trace of Abundance
4x Guard Duty
2x Sigil of the Empty Throne
2x Oblivion Ring
4x Sunpetal Grove
4x Terramorphic Expanse
7x Plains
5x Forest
4x Aura Gnarlid
4x Wall of Omens
4x Hyena Umbra
4x Canopy Cover
3x Spider Umbra
3x Pacifism
3x Crystallization
3x Trace of Aubundance
2x Oblivion Ring
2x Emerge Unscathed
4x Sunpetal Grove
2x Tectonic Edge
8x Forest
8x Plains
The problems I ran into were the low threat density this deck packs. When its running the way it should, its hard to stop. However, with only 8 true threats, it sputters out when you don't draw them or draw them late.
I too had a problem with Bloodwitch since my SB removal was all White and all targeted. Good call on the trap, since my meta is still swarming with Bloodwitches.
I've been thinking of adding Loam Lion or Wild Nacatl to expand the threat density as well as Sigil of the Empty Throne to help finish if needed. And in this case, I will be dropping the Edges since they didn't help at all and screwed me more than helped me. Terramorphic is going to be a 4 of to help the Lion/Nacatl get that boost.
I really want to see this deck work as G/W midrange and I really don't want to splash U or R just to see it compete.