Pyromancer Ascension isn't a win-more card. Once active it creates card advantage and answers your opponent's card advantage (bloodbraid, ranger, broodmate). When you hit 7 mana, a copied Cruel will usually win you the game on the spot. This isn't the case with a single Cruel as your opponent can easily crawl back from with a good board position. The 5 life gain and losing a creature isn't difficult to overcome whereas 10 life gain and losing 2 creatures gives you enough breathing room until the next turn.
Let's put the Pyromancer Ascension question to rest. It's got no place in this deck. We run too many 3 of's and 2 of's to ever get the counters effectively. Not only that, are we really gonna want to copy Negate, Scatter, Dbl. Neg? Topped with 3 to 4 PW's and 2 to 6 dudes that's up to 19 spells that undesirable or can't be copied...
I'll admit, copying a Cruel would be quite fun but it is a 'win-more' card. Twincast would fit better
Ascension belongs in a deck built around it with 4 of's and enough instants and sorceries to make it effective.
The reason I don't fear Tectonic Edge as much is due to the fact that it slows my opponent down a turn as well. Worst case scenario they'll blow up a Necropolis. This deck proved very consistent as far as landbase for me today (I run 26) - I was never locked out of a color, despite having Necropoli blown up a few times by Tectonics.
A straight-up LD deck might be a different story (as far as being locked out of a color), but counters are still very effective vs. everything but Tectonic.
I agree. Tectonic Edge is only going to pose a threat in U/W Control since they can tear up their Library with Jace/TH/Depths and find more than a couple during the game. In any other deck, the Edge is only going to be a nuisance.
Chapin's U/W only ran 5 Non-Creature Counterspells MD with 2 Negate in the Side. Which is just about par with us, but 4 of those are Cancel where we usually MD 3 Negate. Just be picky what you counter and save all your Scatters for Iona.
Terminate will take care of Manlands. Smother now is looking better than Deathmark for the sole fact of Nuking a Colonnade.
I think we'll end up on the losing side of the ratio, just from the ramp, CA, and the fact that our Bomb is the hardest to cast in the Meta.
Notes and Questions: Can the manabase handle Halimar Depths as a 2-of to improve the Hunts?
You've got 8 lands that CIPT no matter what and 6 that CIPT if you don't have the right basic land out. Do you really want to up that number? Also, I tested it out and I was never really thrilled with them.
What can I cut to make room for some Calcite Snappers?, I'm not really happy cutting anything, but I'd like to give them a shot.
If it were me, I'd cut the Smother for room for the Snappers. Mainly because you're need for removal will drop with them out. Run no more than three though because having a bunch in hand is never a real welcome sight.
And finally, should I be using Swerve instead of Spreading Seas for the Jund matchup? The Seas weren't really used this week, but I know how much they sucked for me to see when I was running Jund...
I'd keep the Seas, I use them maindeck there that good in my meta. Swerve can be pretty nasty in the right situation, but pretty much you're only going to be Swerving hand disruption/counterspells. You've got so much SB goodness I wouldn't try fitting both...
i have a few questions/comments about the last 4 or so pages
1st why don't we run ponder? i myself don't either so i have no opinion but i had considered it because what else do we really do turn one?
2nd are people seriously running traumatic visions? perhaps theres something im missing but i don't see the use? please elaborate if you will
3rd sphinx of the lost truths isn't good, in any control, or any other deck really there are infinite ways to spend 7 mana that will net you better results. CU is the perfect example, hell id rather drop Thraximundar, or soulquake so next turn you can CU the baneslayer they re-play
4th mysteries of the deep is pretty bad.. thers only 2 draw spells left worth playing, divination and treasure hunt. i prefer divination because it has 0 chance of cycling for 2 mana.. which regardless of how balls deep the pros are in that card, isn't worth it without running halimar depths and jaces, and depths isn't worth making all of the blue sources come into play tapped, there would only be a few left depending on how many drowned catacombs are left in your deck from tar pits.(this opinion is stated in context with THIS deck, RWU control puts TH to better use IMO)
Ponder isn't really card advantage. I suppose it's better than a 'cycled' Treasure Hunt, but how often do we drop a U untapped first turn? I also disagree that TH is better in RWU, we can use the extra mana better and we need to drop a land every turn, RWU can cast every spell in the deck with 5 lands on the board (X spells not included, they use Chalice anyhow). There's better spells to play than Ponder in this deck.
Traumatic Visions is a pet card of sorts. Players that run it land cycle it early or use it for a late game counter. Which is why they only run one or two. I personally see no use.
Is EQ an auto-include at this point? Seems like everyone that's played with it has never reported it being a card they didn't want to see. The only time it's a bad card is if your are under 3-4 life, and with Cruel and Sorin (if you run him) you should not ever have EQ be completely dead unless you're already losing. I've not played with it, but it just seems that most of the scenarios that I can think of, EQ would be a good peel.
Seems like 2 MD +1 SB would be optimal. You want multiples against Jund, WW, opposing snappers, RDW... It just seems to be tits every time you draw it.
Not to mention it's an extra win-con itself.
Sounds to me like you answered your own question. All those reasons alone are why I run 2 EQ MD.
I've been wondering this also. But, I've never had the guts to say it. LOL. If Grixis needs a MD sweeper, could it use Pyroclasm instead? I can see Earthquake being better when you need to deal with a Planeswalker though.
I use Quake for PWs, cleaning up little guys, and as a finisher. I've used it as a finisher more times than I can count. Earthquake belongs.
In SB, how good is Smother? It seems like a blank against Jund barring leech, but I haven't seen a leech in a while. Seems good against WW, with Kor Firewalker and such, as well as vamps. I don't know, in a more established meta, would you guys rather have that or Duress?
I'd rather have Deathmark. It nails Kor Firewalker and every creature in Jund except the Stag/Goblins/Specter. 9 times out of 10 we would side in Smother where we would side Deathmark anyways...
Sideboard is tuned to my meta so I won't bore you with it, just know that the 2 missing Terminates and 1 Dbl Neg are in there...
My question is: Is MD Dbl Neg worth it any more? I am starting to think of upping the Negate total and bringing up the Terminate count to 3. Dbl Neg hardly pays off, although when it does its golden.
Also, Snapper is very nice but is anyone else that runs them starting to think that 4 is one too many?
Halimar Depths is sweet, I've always been a big fan of arranging what I'll be drawing in the near future. The only thing that I've noticed is that I'm having a bit of trouble getting BBBRR by turn 7. I've been ending up with UUU a lot and all I've done is pull two Islands for the depths
I know a lot of people see Clone in the sideboard and are like... "Clone?" but it's actually tested quite well. It helps against ramped Baloths, Thoctars, BSAs. You can clone shroud creatures so it helps with Sphinx. You can clone your own turtle. Clone copies CIP abilities as well so a cloned Broodmate gets you token. Clone on Thrinax is nice too. All in all it is actually very very good with the current decks that are out.
Wouldn't Mind Control be a better option? The cons are its U more and you don't get the CIP triggers. However, the card advantage it possibly generates is worth it. Instead of copying one of their dudes, you steal it! If they have removal in hand they could just kill the Clone or trade with you, but if you Mind Control one of their dudes and they have to remove it, that's solid card advantage right there...
Round 3: Grixis (counter version)
I expected this guy to be playing less counters, but whatever. I tried to t2 spreading seas his Catacomb, and he negated it. (Thanks!)
I managed to stick a Liliana later, he untaps and starts tapping 7 mana, I go to discard my hand and he plays Earthquake. (Thanks for dealing yourself 6?)
I then burned him off completely I think.
The second game was pretty sad too...
LOL!!! That was me! Small world, I was looking for different builds to tweak my deck and stumbled on this.
Yeah, you kicked Burst Lightning twice on me first game. I really didn't see that coming. I was more concerned with quaking your Vess to stop you from tutoring your win condition cards.
Second game I sided out all my removal and your Goblin Ruinblaster along with a good dose of color screw (I should have mulled again) made for a very ugly game. Great match by the way!
I'll admit, I played horribly. I'm still rusty from taking 5 years off and I really wasn't ready for a mirror match. Not only that, I didn't think Grixis was all that popular. I really need to find a play-test group.
I'll share my build that I played on Friday, it's obviously gotta change
Let's put the Pyromancer Ascension question to rest. It's got no place in this deck. We run too many 3 of's and 2 of's to ever get the counters effectively. Not only that, are we really gonna want to copy Negate, Scatter, Dbl. Neg? Topped with 3 to 4 PW's and 2 to 6 dudes that's up to 19 spells that undesirable or can't be copied...
I'll admit, copying a Cruel would be quite fun but it is a 'win-more' card. Twincast would fit better
Ascension belongs in a deck built around it with 4 of's and enough instants and sorceries to make it effective.
I agree. Tectonic Edge is only going to pose a threat in U/W Control since they can tear up their Library with Jace/TH/Depths and find more than a couple during the game. In any other deck, the Edge is only going to be a nuisance.
Chapin's U/W only ran 5 Non-Creature Counterspells MD with 2 Negate in the Side. Which is just about par with us, but 4 of those are Cancel where we usually MD 3 Negate. Just be picky what you counter and save all your Scatters for Iona.
Terminate will take care of Manlands. Smother now is looking better than Deathmark for the sole fact of Nuking a Colonnade.
I think we'll end up on the losing side of the ratio, just from the ramp, CA, and the fact that our Bomb is the hardest to cast in the Meta.
You've got 8 lands that CIPT no matter what and 6 that CIPT if you don't have the right basic land out. Do you really want to up that number? Also, I tested it out and I was never really thrilled with them.
I'd keep it at no more than three. The deck is already packed with so much goodness why cram another one in?
If it were me, I'd cut the Smother for room for the Snappers. Mainly because you're need for removal will drop with them out. Run no more than three though because having a bunch in hand is never a real welcome sight.
I'd keep the Seas, I use them maindeck there that good in my meta. Swerve can be pretty nasty in the right situation, but pretty much you're only going to be Swerving hand disruption/counterspells. You've got so much SB goodness I wouldn't try fitting both...
The match write up provided some nice insight on how to handle different decks and situations. Very nice! And congrats on pulling another Jace!
Ponder isn't really card advantage. I suppose it's better than a 'cycled' Treasure Hunt, but how often do we drop a U untapped first turn? I also disagree that TH is better in RWU, we can use the extra mana better and we need to drop a land every turn, RWU can cast every spell in the deck with 5 lands on the board (X spells not included, they use Chalice anyhow). There's better spells to play than Ponder in this deck.
Traumatic Visions is a pet card of sorts. Players that run it land cycle it early or use it for a late game counter. Which is why they only run one or two. I personally see no use.
Sounds to me like you answered your own question. All those reasons alone are why I run 2 EQ MD.
I use Quake for PWs, cleaning up little guys, and as a finisher. I've used it as a finisher more times than I can count. Earthquake belongs.
I'd rather have Deathmark. It nails Kor Firewalker and every creature in Jund except the Stag/Goblins/Specter. 9 times out of 10 we would side in Smother where we would side Deathmark anyways...
3 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
4 Calcite Snapper
Spells (26):
3 Cruel Ultimatum
2 Terminate
2 Earthquake
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Negate
3 Essence Scatter
2 Double Negative
4 Treasure Hunt
3 Spreading Seas
2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Lands (25):
4 Crumbling Necropolis
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Dragonskull Summit
2 Halimar Depths
3 Swamp
4 Mountain
2 Island
Sideboard is tuned to my meta so I won't bore you with it, just know that the 2 missing Terminates and 1 Dbl Neg are in there...
My question is: Is MD Dbl Neg worth it any more? I am starting to think of upping the Negate total and bringing up the Terminate count to 3. Dbl Neg hardly pays off, although when it does its golden.
Also, Snapper is very nice but is anyone else that runs them starting to think that 4 is one too many?
Halimar Depths is sweet, I've always been a big fan of arranging what I'll be drawing in the near future. The only thing that I've noticed is that I'm having a bit of trouble getting BBBRR by turn 7. I've been ending up with UUU a lot and all I've done is pull two Islands for the depths
Wouldn't Mind Control be a better option? The cons are its U more and you don't get the CIP triggers. However, the card advantage it possibly generates is worth it. Instead of copying one of their dudes, you steal it! If they have removal in hand they could just kill the Clone or trade with you, but if you Mind Control one of their dudes and they have to remove it, that's solid card advantage right there...
Mind Warp is not T2 legal. I think you mean Mind Shatter...
LOL!!! That was me!
Yeah, you kicked Burst Lightning twice on me first game. I really didn't see that coming. I was more concerned with quaking your Vess to stop you from tutoring your win condition cards.
Second game I sided out all my removal and your Goblin Ruinblaster along with a good dose of color screw (I should have mulled again) made for a very ugly game. Great match by the way!
I'll admit, I played horribly. I'm still rusty from taking 5 years off and I really wasn't ready for a mirror match. Not only that, I didn't think Grixis was all that popular. I really need to find a play-test group.
I'll share my build that I played on Friday, it's obviously gotta change
3 Sphinx of Jwar Isle
Spells
3 Negate
3 Double Negative
3 Essence Scatter
4 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Earthquake
3 Ponder
4 Courier's Capsule
2 Divination
2 Cruel Ultimatum
1 Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
4 Terramorphic Expanse
3 Drowned Catacomb
3 Dragonskull Summit
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
3 Swamp
4 Mountain