Not sure if his list just took the field by surprise, the format is still up in the air, or if the list is really good. Bonfire of the Damned is inherently good and can win matches on it's own, seems like the cornerstone of the deck. I'm surprised at the lack of any maindeck countermagic but love the 12 cantrips to plow through the deck.
I plan to try a similar list on Friday, but with a lot less one of's...
They could try Opt, since it fills the role of both Ponder and Preordain, but being less effective (we see one less card, we can't opt to put the second). It has also nice, but minor synergy with Miracles.
I like this idea, it also bumps it up into the Modern card pool. Sleight of Hand is alright, but it's got zero synergy with Miracle since you can't set your top deck.
I just hope it's not a 2CC Sorcery. That would be a true kick in the junk for all Standard Control/Tempo players.
I got to play my Temporal Mastery not once, not twice, not three times, but a grand total of 6 times. All for it's Miracle cost! Twice it won me games I had no business winning, twice it was like an Explore, and the last two I was too far behind for it to matter. It wouldn't have been possible if not for the awesome Mad Prophet.
Overall though, most of the Miracle cards are only OK as a majority of them either need a good target or you need to be behind on the board in order to truly maximize the mechanic.
Well the thing is, it's only 1 mana. Removal already has value if you play goblin guide/keldon marauders/hellspark (swords to plowshares) and figure. It's great if it's in your opening hand, and a bit less so if you draw it later... But then again, drawing a figure or goblin guide later is also usually not great. A 4/3 is really nothing to scoff at, I think it'll trade with delver and goyf quite often, beats snapcaster and most early maverick stuff...
You have the choice issue of course, which doesn't make it completely broken... but still, against creature decks it either trades with one or more creatures (4/3 is quite big...), or it hits more often, or it deals 4 damage for 1 mana. Browbeat is bad because it's 3 mana, and you cast it when you don't have gas. However, this is ONE mana, you can play it first turn! Your opponent won't know what your hand is like! If it's all burn he wants the creature, if it's all creature he wants the burn... but he can't make that decision informatively.
What you said about all spells in mono-red being able to burn for sure is ofcourse nonsense. A late drawn goblin guide or figure is not guaranteed damage. It also does not screw up the manacurve in any way, you could have this replace keldon marauders, and replace a burn spell with a 2 mana variant no problem.
Marauders deals two no matter what, they trigger when they die, get bounced, get exiled, or put back into the deck. The rewards of running GG out weight any risk involved, turn 1 it's getting in for 2 if it resolves period. Vexing Devil resolves turn 1 and get's removed the following turn, you've gained nothing. And you have to admit that a 4/3 is a much sweeter target than a 2/2 that will feed you land. Devil is a bad late game top deck, as is GG and I believe GG will still be better than the Devil and the deck can not be running 8 bad late game topdecks, it needs burn to win. I don't run Hellspark or FoD for those very reasons.
There are only 4 cards in my main deck 60 that are not guaranteed damage and they are all Goblin Guides. I even mentioned that a late game GG is the exception.
It's a card that needs to be thoroughly tested and not just crammed in the deck with out any afterthought.
Main reason is it's not guaranteed damage. One of Mono-Red Burns strong points is all the cards will damage the opponent when they resolve (occasional late game GG the exception). Thus giving burn great consistancy. I can see this card being a crapshot in a lot of scenarios. It definitely turns on and gives value to their removal and that's my main concern.
Good stuff guys! I'll generate more hands when I have the time (looking like Monday. Work is busy). Any interest in seeing post SB hands versus specific decks such as Zombies or Tempered Steel?
I'll share my opinion on the hands as well:
Hand 1: izzetmage mirrored my thought process:
Quote from izzetmage »
Hand 1: You need a blue source in order to do anything. You have 2 Probe.
One of 3 things are possible:
1) 1st Probe hits a blue source
2) 2nd Probe hits a blue source
3) Both Probes whiff
Scenario 2 ends up with you at 16 life, and 3 is a scoop. Mull.
At worst you end up at 16 life with a Moorland Haunt as your only mana source hoping to topdeck a blue source. That's no position to be in. Mull
Hand 2: Has a lot of potential and you're going to see 5 cards by the end of turn 2s first main (Probe, turn 2 draw, Ponder) so that should be more than enough to draw another land. Falling back on Vapor Snag to set up Stalker turn 3. I'd keep it.
Hand 3: I hate double probe hands when I'm not sure what I'm up against. But I've learned not to bust my nut on both t1 unless it's necessary or I'm certain a SoWaP will help me recover. It's a slow hand, but a controlling hand and as long as you Mana Leak the correct card this hand should win. Keep
Hand 4: I've kept hands like these before and have always been rewarded. Probe could hit a Delver (optimal) or another land, either way Ponders are going to do their job and fix what needs to be fixed (even if the first fails, just shuffle and fall back on the second). Keep
In the old Tempered Steel sub-forum there was a thread like this, and it helped a bit while being fun at the same time. Pretty much I lay out some sample starting 7's and you decide whether or not to keep it or mull. Please also give your reasoning as to why you've come to your decision. It will help others analyze their choices in the future as well. Hand 1 is something I encountered this past FNM and it's what motivated me to start up this thread.
I've tried to come up with some complicated choices, but it's all in the eye of the beholder. If the thread is well received I'll crank out some more hands next week.
For reference I'll use this stock U/w Delver list:
7/15/2006 This card's ability is not targeted, so even untargetable creatures or those with Protection can be chosen.
Not sure if his list just took the field by surprise, the format is still up in the air, or if the list is really good. Bonfire of the Damned is inherently good and can win matches on it's own, seems like the cornerstone of the deck. I'm surprised at the lack of any maindeck countermagic but love the 12 cantrips to plow through the deck.
I plan to try a similar list on Friday, but with a lot less one of's...
M10 and M12 with Preordain in between. So we're probably looking at a different card in this slot.
I like this idea, it also bumps it up into the Modern card pool. Sleight of Hand is alright, but it's got zero synergy with Miracle since you can't set your top deck.
I just hope it's not a 2CC Sorcery. That would be a true kick in the junk for all Standard Control/Tempo players.
Anyone know of a bot that's buying them?
Rolling a die is Improperly Determining a Winner and could be punishable by both of you getting disqualified if the Judge saw fit.
Time Walking more than made up for the fact I got THREE Gloom Surgeons in my pool :/
Overall though, most of the Miracle cards are only OK as a majority of them either need a good target or you need to be behind on the board in order to truly maximize the mechanic.
That out of the way, I'm definitely in W/U/x just can't decide on x yet... Probably Red for Thunder Bolt and some other goodies.
Just want to cast Defy Death on Avy for the laughs!
Terminate
Wings of Hope
Zombie Outlander
Colossal Might
Heroes' Reunion
Easy to understand, and all allied colored. I doubt there will be any enemy colored cards...
Marauders deals two no matter what, they trigger when they die, get bounced, get exiled, or put back into the deck. The rewards of running GG out weight any risk involved, turn 1 it's getting in for 2 if it resolves period. Vexing Devil resolves turn 1 and get's removed the following turn, you've gained nothing. And you have to admit that a 4/3 is a much sweeter target than a 2/2 that will feed you land. Devil is a bad late game top deck, as is GG and I believe GG will still be better than the Devil and the deck can not be running 8 bad late game topdecks, it needs burn to win. I don't run Hellspark or FoD for those very reasons.
There are only 4 cards in my main deck 60 that are not guaranteed damage and they are all Goblin Guides. I even mentioned that a late game GG is the exception.
It's a card that needs to be thoroughly tested and not just crammed in the deck with out any afterthought.
Main reason is it's not guaranteed damage. One of Mono-Red Burns strong points is all the cards will damage the opponent when they resolve (occasional late game GG the exception). Thus giving burn great consistancy. I can see this card being a crapshot in a lot of scenarios. It definitely turns on and gives value to their removal and that's my main concern.
Time to test I guess. :/
I'll share my opinion on the hands as well:
Hand 1: izzetmage mirrored my thought process:
At worst you end up at 16 life with a Moorland Haunt as your only mana source hoping to topdeck a blue source. That's no position to be in. Mull
Hand 2: Has a lot of potential and you're going to see 5 cards by the end of turn 2s first main (Probe, turn 2 draw, Ponder) so that should be more than enough to draw another land. Falling back on Vapor Snag to set up Stalker turn 3. I'd keep it.
Hand 3: I hate double probe hands when I'm not sure what I'm up against. But I've learned not to bust my nut on both t1 unless it's necessary or I'm certain a SoWaP will help me recover. It's a slow hand, but a controlling hand and as long as you Mana Leak the correct card this hand should win. Keep
Hand 4: I've kept hands like these before and have always been rewarded. Probe could hit a Delver (optimal) or another land, either way Ponders are going to do their job and fix what needs to be fixed (even if the first fails, just shuffle and fall back on the second). Keep
I've tried to come up with some complicated choices, but it's all in the eye of the beholder. If the thread is well received I'll crank out some more hands next week.
For reference I'll use this stock U/w Delver list:
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Geist of Saint Traft
3x Invisible Stalker
4x Ponder
4x Gitaxian Probe
2x Thought Scour
4x Mana Leak
4x Vapor Snag
2x Dismember
2x Runechanter's Pike
9x Island
4x Seachrome Coast
4x Glacial Fortress
3x Moorland Haunt
1x Plains
Assume you're on the play:
Hand 1:
Have fun!