Considering dropping Cataclysm for City of Solitude? Cataclysm hasn't really been doing anything, as I usually win through an overwhelming board presence. I'd drop it in a heartbeat for a Ravages of War if I hated money. But I really want more anti-counter stuff after some rough games vs Nin today.
I did take a look at your list when putting mine together, actually. I felt that more disruption over pump would be stronger--at least in my meta with so much blue. The multiple ways to fetch Swords makes most other pump unnecessary--and I dislike how Shield of the Oversoul was really just for Sigarda. Totem armors also, but I like their utility in protecting Sigarda against wraths. An equipment-centered approach seemed best because they stick around and are great with all your creatures. Rancor obviously gets a pass because it comes back.
I've considered City of Solitude, but I'm not sure what I'd cut for it. I prefer Dosan to both that and Grand Abolisher because he's more easily tutored for--particularly in the case of Green Sun's Zenith. This deck also produces more green than white, making the Abolisher's mana cost inconvenient at times.
I notice your list runs Nevermore, which is something I'd love to fit in. Fetching it with Zur to name generals is so wonderful.
EDIT: @mikel: Am I overvaluing Dosan and Herald being green and thus fetchable with Zenith?
I recently convinced a local card shop to run Duel Commander tournaments, to replace the failing and ill-conceived Multiplayer Commander tournaments they were running. I immediately built Talrand and Zur, as they are not only fantastic decks with established lists to go off of—but also decks I could build very cheaply with the cards I already had. After a while, I wanted to broaden the scope of my decks and build something new. I started tinkering with Sigarda, challenging my assumption that one really wants to be playing blue in this format. This is what I’ve come up with…
As you can see, I’m trying to capture the spirit of Maverick in Legacy for Duel Commander, with a Birthing Pod package thrown in that I’m currently testing. This list is pretty heavily tuned to my metagame, which has a lot of blue. Your general plan is to drop disruptive creatures, suit them up with equipment, and bash. Sigarda provides a very strong angle of attack—ending the game in three swings when equipped with a sword. I have found that the difficulty opponents have in killing her is one of the things that puts her over Gaddock Teeg or Captain Sisay for the general. Sigarda is huge threat that can come down quickly to apply pressure, or after a wrath wrecks your board to instantly re-stabilize.
Aether Vial, Gaea’s Herald, Dosan the Falling Leaf, Thrun, the Last Troll, Cavern of Souls
These are key cards that either let you resolve your spells, or in Thrun’s case—blanks counters and removal entirely by himself. Grand Abolisher didn’t make the cut and I didn’t care for his WW mana cost. I often lend out Talrand and/or Zur, a friend plays mono-blue with rotating generals, and another friend has both Nin and Geist of Saint Traft. So there’s a lot of blue floating around here.
Birthing Pod, Fauna Shaman, Survival of the Fittest, Solemn Simulacrum, Reveillark, Deranged Hermit, Indrik Stomphowler, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Obviously if you want to be technical, the list could be a lot longer. But I’m mainly focusing on cards that I’m primarily including because of the pod. I don’t think Solemn makes the cut without pod—and maybe not even then. I looked at the curve and wanted another 4-drop, and the robot best came to mind to use with pod. I decided to test pod, as I had some slots to work with after cutting Batterskull, Genesis, and Tarmogoyf. I didn’t like how they didn’t meaningfully affect the board, and I often found I had better things to do with my mana than Genesis. ‘Goyf should probably come back in, though.
Ulvenwald Tracker: Been trying this guy out and I like him quite a bit. Repeatable removal has been pretty strong, especially when you have Sigarda our which is usually bigger than anything they have. Being able to gun down a Talrand every turn has been excellent.
Hero of Baldehold: Doesn’t disrupt, but can dominate a game by itself. Cool trick is to combine it with Maze of Ith to get the attacking tokens but prevent them from blocking and killing the Hero.
Cataclysm: It’s such a beating in Zur, that I wanted to test it here. Not sure how sold I am on it, since I usually have a stronger board presence than my opponent. Still, casting it and having a board state of something like Sigarda, Host of Herons, Sword of Fire and Ice, Sylvan Library, and Gaea’s Cradle is pretty hilarious to think about.
Not sure much else needs explaining at this point. Local meta is pretty small—haven’t yet done extensive testing against the top decks of the format aside Talrand and Zur. Both are pretty even—Talrand being a little easier and Zur being a little harder. I still consider this deck a work in progress and would welcome criticism and suggestions. Thanks!
EDIT: Made some changes over the course of a few weekly tournaments:
Jace, the Mind Sculptor fulfills that role in my build, which I think is leagues better than the sphinx or arcanis. He's cheaper, does more, and does it immediately.
I actually haven't played the Wydwen match-up at all, but good-stuff decks are really only a problem when they've ramped enough to start threatening multiple game-enders a turn. It's not really that hard to contain them. And even when/if they kill Talrand, you should still have 2-5 drakes that continue to threaten them. Few generals can stabilize like Talrand can. Killing Talrand is often not enough.
No combo's needed--not even sure what you'd be doing with MoM anyways. The deck's strength is its simplicity and straight-forwardness. It's doing anything cute--just countering/bouncing relevant targets, dropping a Talrand with counter-backup, and beating down with drakes.
As for interacting with resolved threats, bounce spells are usually an all-purpose tool. For shroud/hexproof/uncounterable threats (Geist of Saint Traft, Sigarda, Host of Herons, and Thrun, the Last Troll come to mind), you can usually just chump them with drakes. Just make sure you counter the Umezawa's Jitte, or the Sword of X and Y that will make said threat actually theatening.
For boardwipes, just save your counters for game-breakers and/or things that affect your game-plan. For cards like Supreme Verdict and Volcanic Fallout, save a bounce spell or Talrand or leave mana up for Riptide Laboratory. Sudden Shock and Sudden Death are problems--but usually you'll only see the latter. And not even that often.
You don't need to counter every spell, just the ones that matter.
I only play 3 non-land cards in my Talrand list that don't give me a drake when I play them: Augur of Bolas, Snapcaster Mage, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor. I think this is the best approach for Talrand. 20-30 counters, some bounce, some draw, and lands.
As a build-around-me card with a very specific niche, I'm fine with Oath's spot in my cube--until some more "must include" cards are printed that push out some of the oddball card choices in my cube. Oath has done work in control vs aggro, getting free dudes. It's obviously most splashy in decks that can really draft around it and/or when it serves as a companion to Tinker and Natural Order.
Also hilarious with Worldly Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and Scroll Rack.
Sometimes I get tempted to stick Forbidden Orchard in just for giggles.
I recently fit Ninja of the Deep Hours back in after wrecking face with it in pauper cube, and it's been so awesome. Either getting there turn 2 off a Savannah Lions or later off a hard cast Mulldrifter has been incredibly sweet.
Interested in hearing how Nether Spirit performs for you--I still had Reassembling Skeleton in my cube for stax/pox-based strategies, so I made the swap for spirit to see if it will perform better.
I'm mostly wondering which awkwardness will be worse--skeleton requiring mana or spirit requiring an empty graveyard.
Mass-removal completely wrecked my carefully-constructed board, with only slow recursion to build it back. Open the Vaults should solve that nicely. Cyclonic Rift is just a great card I've been meaning to pick up, but should also help get me back in the game when crazy ramp decks outpace me. And I figure now with Open the Vaults, Cyclonic Rift, Armageddon, and Wrath-effects, I should have enough crucial targets to warrant Mystical Tutor.
My EDH meta spans both ends of the spectrum of funpowered theme decks and insanely broken combo decks. You'll see a pretty awful Anowon, the Ruin Sage vampire tribal deck, and then a brutal Bant combo deck that starts chaining Time Warp-effects on turn 4. Not much in the middle. While it was fun for awhile, dabbling with the combo players with U/B storm and killing tables on turn 3-5, I wanted to build something that shuts combo decks down, makes me mostly untouchable, and locks people out.
My strategy of hiding behind an Ensnaring Bridge and hindering gratuitous spell-casting somewhat invalidates a lot of win conditions. Wurmcoil Engine was cut from the deck for not doing anything. So I really just expect to win games from concession, Mindslaver lock, and/or planeswalker ultimates.
//Card Choices\\
I can't imagine many of the cards in the deck bear much commentary. I'll just highlight some of the not-obvious cards and/or cards I have doubts on.
Reshape
I have found that Winter Orb is extremely important for dealing with the crazy ramp and combo decks I face, so I'm testing Reshape. Not sure if it's good enough, though.
Ankh of Mishra
Another card I'm testing to keep ramp and combo in check.
Dance of Many
A recurring clone-effect with Hanna. Good to get value out of other peoples' creatures, but also repeatable general-removal. Not sure if it will pull its weight, though.
Pendrell Mists
Everyone tells me to cut this card, but I really like it--especially along with the orbs and tax enchantments. People might be right, though.
Stasis
Another card I'm unsure of. No real way to break it...other than improbable Capsize-lock, or Crucible of Worlds with a fetch.
//Current Concerns\\
I'm trying to think of ways that I can interact with ramp/combo decks. Once a deck gets access to a billion mana, there's not much beyond Winter Orb or Static Orb to contain them. I also find that I can get quickly outpaced by decks, and that my stax effects can't keep up.
But then I get hands that play out like legacy white stax with a quick Tangle Wire, Smokestack, and Crucible. I obv don't expect that everyone, but I wouldn't mind improved consistency.
If you could do me a HUGE favor, and suggest cards to be cut when you suggest cards to add--that would be awesome. I really like most all of these cards, I need to be nudged to cut any!
Pringlesman's pauper cube is actually really fun to draft, and you could build it for pretty cheap--since you're not insane and foiling it out like he is.
Then, if you decide you hate pauper, you can upgrade it with some staple uncommons, dollar rares, other rare staples as your budget deems fit.
I have thought about re-tuning my cube along this idea, but no so much as cataloging the specific types of cards by function (ie 3 sweepers, 4 spot removal, 6 1cc dudes, etc), but determining what archetypes I want each color to support. And then giving preferential treatment to cards that further those archetypes.
Which isn't too different from how I (and many others) currently manage my (their) cube(s)--it really just translates into a willingness to cut staples or almost-staples in the interest of increasing variety and flavor.
Considering dropping Cataclysm for City of Solitude? Cataclysm hasn't really been doing anything, as I usually win through an overwhelming board presence. I'd drop it in a heartbeat for a Ravages of War if I hated money. But I really want more anti-counter stuff after some rough games vs Nin today.
By the same token, thinking of dropping Dryad Militant for Grand Abolisher--or possibly Aven Mindcensor.
I've considered City of Solitude, but I'm not sure what I'd cut for it. I prefer Dosan to both that and Grand Abolisher because he's more easily tutored for--particularly in the case of Green Sun's Zenith. This deck also produces more green than white, making the Abolisher's mana cost inconvenient at times.
I notice your list runs Nevermore, which is something I'd love to fit in. Fetching it with Zur to name generals is so wonderful.
EDIT: @mikel: Am I overvaluing Dosan and Herald being green and thus fetchable with Zenith?
1 Aether Vial
1 Birthing Pod
1 Expedition Map
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Skullclamp
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
Creatures 31
1 Mother of Runes
1 Weathered Wayfarer
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Avacyn’s Pilgrim
1 Joraga Treespeaker
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Fauna Shaman
1 Gaea’s Herald
1 Lotus Cobra
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Glowrider
1 Dosan the Falling Leaf
1 Eternal Witness
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Oracle of Mul Daya
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Reveillark
1 Karmic Guide
1 Acidic Slime
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Sun Titan
1 Primeval Titan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Enchantments 5
1 Oblivion Ring
1 City of Solitude
1 Rancor
1 Survival of the Fittest
1 Sylvan Library
Instants 5
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Krosan Grip
1 Worldly Tutor
Planeswalkers 1
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Sorceries 5
1 Armageddon
1 Steelshaper’s Gift
1 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Life from the Loam
1 Regrowth
Lands 43
1 Arid Mesa
1 Brushland
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Dust Bowl
1 Flooded Strand
1 Gaea’s Cradle
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Krosan Verge
1 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Rishadan Port
1 Savannah
1 Secluded Steppe
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Sunpetal Grove
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple Garden
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Treetop Village
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
8 Forest
8 Plains
Deckstats Analysis Link
As you can see, I’m trying to capture the spirit of Maverick in Legacy for Duel Commander, with a Birthing Pod package thrown in that I’m currently testing. This list is pretty heavily tuned to my metagame, which has a lot of blue. Your general plan is to drop disruptive creatures, suit them up with equipment, and bash. Sigarda provides a very strong angle of attack—ending the game in three swings when equipped with a sword. I have found that the difficulty opponents have in killing her is one of the things that puts her over Gaddock Teeg or Captain Sisay for the general. Sigarda is huge threat that can come down quickly to apply pressure, or after a wrath wrecks your board to instantly re-stabilize.
Aether Vial, Gaea’s Herald, Dosan the Falling Leaf, Thrun, the Last Troll, Cavern of Souls
These are key cards that either let you resolve your spells, or in Thrun’s case—blanks counters and removal entirely by himself. Grand Abolisher didn’t make the cut and I didn’t care for his WW mana cost. I often lend out Talrand and/or Zur, a friend plays mono-blue with rotating generals, and another friend has both Nin and Geist of Saint Traft. So there’s a lot of blue floating around here.
Birthing Pod, Fauna Shaman, Survival of the Fittest, Solemn Simulacrum, Reveillark, Deranged Hermit, Indrik Stomphowler, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Obviously if you want to be technical, the list could be a lot longer. But I’m mainly focusing on cards that I’m primarily including because of the pod. I don’t think Solemn makes the cut without pod—and maybe not even then. I looked at the curve and wanted another 4-drop, and the robot best came to mind to use with pod. I decided to test pod, as I had some slots to work with after cutting Batterskull, Genesis, and Tarmogoyf. I didn’t like how they didn’t meaningfully affect the board, and I often found I had better things to do with my mana than Genesis. ‘Goyf should probably come back in, though.
Ulvenwald Tracker: Been trying this guy out and I like him quite a bit. Repeatable removal has been pretty strong, especially when you have Sigarda our which is usually bigger than anything they have. Being able to gun down a Talrand every turn has been excellent.
Hero of Baldehold: Doesn’t disrupt, but can dominate a game by itself. Cool trick is to combine it with Maze of Ith to get the attacking tokens but prevent them from blocking and killing the Hero.
Cataclysm: It’s such a beating in Zur, that I wanted to test it here. Not sure how sold I am on it, since I usually have a stronger board presence than my opponent. Still, casting it and having a board state of something like Sigarda, Host of Herons, Sword of Fire and Ice, Sylvan Library, and Gaea’s Cradle is pretty hilarious to think about.
Not sure much else needs explaining at this point. Local meta is pretty small—haven’t yet done extensive testing against the top decks of the format aside Talrand and Zur. Both are pretty even—Talrand being a little easier and Zur being a little harder. I still consider this deck a work in progress and would welcome criticism and suggestions. Thanks!
EDIT: Made some changes over the course of a few weekly tournaments:
-1 Dryad Militant
-1 Cataclysm
-3 Forest
-1 Plains
+1 Fiend Hunter
+1 Oracle of Mul Daya
+1 City of Solitude
+1 Gavony Township
+1 Misty Rainforest
+1 Rishadan Port
I actually haven't played the Wydwen match-up at all, but good-stuff decks are really only a problem when they've ramped enough to start threatening multiple game-enders a turn. It's not really that hard to contain them. And even when/if they kill Talrand, you should still have 2-5 drakes that continue to threaten them. Few generals can stabilize like Talrand can. Killing Talrand is often not enough.
As for interacting with resolved threats, bounce spells are usually an all-purpose tool. For shroud/hexproof/uncounterable threats (Geist of Saint Traft, Sigarda, Host of Herons, and Thrun, the Last Troll come to mind), you can usually just chump them with drakes. Just make sure you counter the Umezawa's Jitte, or the Sword of X and Y that will make said threat actually theatening.
For boardwipes, just save your counters for game-breakers and/or things that affect your game-plan. For cards like Supreme Verdict and Volcanic Fallout, save a bounce spell or Talrand or leave mana up for Riptide Laboratory. Sudden Shock and Sudden Death are problems--but usually you'll only see the latter. And not even that often.
You don't need to counter every spell, just the ones that matter.
Riptide Laboratory is a key card you're missing, along with Merchant Scroll.
I do run a Time Warp in my list, but I'm not sure it's optimal. I would definitely suggest running both Mystical Tutor and Temporal Mastery.
Also hilarious with Worldly Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and Scroll Rack.
Sometimes I get tempted to stick Forbidden Orchard in just for giggles.
I'm mostly wondering which awkwardness will be worse--skeleton requiring mana or spirit requiring an empty graveyard.
Hello Library and $60 in other cards needed for cube!
EDIT: Better pic uploaded.
After some games today, I made the following changes...
Pendrell Mists ---> Cyclonic Rift
Stasis ---> Mystical Tutor
Meekstone ---> Open the Vaults
Mass-removal completely wrecked my carefully-constructed board, with only slow recursion to build it back. Open the Vaults should solve that nicely. Cyclonic Rift is just a great card I've been meaning to pick up, but should also help get me back in the game when crazy ramp decks outpace me. And I figure now with Open the Vaults, Cyclonic Rift, Armageddon, and Wrath-effects, I should have enough crucial targets to warrant Mystical Tutor.
1 Hanna, Ship's Navigator
Creatures--5
1 Sun Titan
1 Consecrated Sphinx
1 Trinket Mage
1 Duplicant
1 Solemn Simulacrum
Planeswalkers--4
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Karn Liberated
Draw, Tutor, Business--8
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Open the Vaults
1 Compulsive Research
1 Fabricate
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Reshape
Control--10
1 Armageddon
1 Day of Judgment
1 Rout
1 Wrath of God
1 Capsize
1 Cyclonic Rift
1 Forbid
1 Force of Will
1 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
1 Ankh of Mishra
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Expedition Map
1 Mindslaver
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scroll Rack
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Smokestack
1 Static Orb
1 Tangle Wire
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trading Post
1 Trinisphere
1 Winter Orb
Enchantments--13
1 Faith's Fetters
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Hanna's Custody
1 Land Tax
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Sphere of Safety
1 Control Magic
1 Dance of Many
1 Future Sight
1 Propaganda
1 Treachery
1 Detention Sphere
1 Azorius Signet
1 Everflowing Chalice
1 Fellwar Stone
1 Grim Monolith
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mind Stone
1 Sol Ring
1 Academy Ruins
1 Adarkar Wastes
1 Ancient Tomb
1 Azorius Chancery
1 Celestial Colonnade
1 Darksteel Citadel
1 Dust Bowl
1 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Marsh Flats
1 Maze of Ith
1 Polluted Delta
1 Reliquary Tower
1 Seat of the Synod
1 Strip Mine
1 Wasteland
10 Island
8 Plains
//General Strategy\\
Play artifacts and enchantments, and slow the game to a grinding halt. Cripple mana with Crucible lock, Winter Orb/Static Orb, Tangle Wire, Smokestack, etc shenanigans. Stop attacks with taxing enchantments and Ensnaring Bridge. Recur stuff with Hanna, Ship's Navigator, Trading Post, and Academy Ruins.
My strategy of hiding behind an Ensnaring Bridge and hindering gratuitous spell-casting somewhat invalidates a lot of win conditions. Wurmcoil Engine was cut from the deck for not doing anything. So I really just expect to win games from concession, Mindslaver lock, and/or planeswalker ultimates.
//Card Choices\\
I can't imagine many of the cards in the deck bear much commentary. I'll just highlight some of the not-obvious cards and/or cards I have doubts on.
Reshape
I have found that Winter Orb is extremely important for dealing with the crazy ramp and combo decks I face, so I'm testing Reshape. Not sure if it's good enough, though.
Ankh of Mishra
Another card I'm testing to keep ramp and combo in check.
Meekstone
Not sure if it's needed or redundant with all the tax-enchantments and Ensnaring Bridge.
Dance of Many
A recurring clone-effect with Hanna. Good to get value out of other peoples' creatures, but also repeatable general-removal. Not sure if it will pull its weight, though.
Pendrell Mists
Everyone tells me to cut this card, but I really like it--especially along with the orbs and tax enchantments. People might be right, though.
Stasis
Another card I'm unsure of. No real way to break it...other than improbable Capsize-lock, or Crucible of Worlds with a fetch.
//Current Concerns\\
I'm trying to think of ways that I can interact with ramp/combo decks. Once a deck gets access to a billion mana, there's not much beyond Winter Orb or Static Orb to contain them. I also find that I can get quickly outpaced by decks, and that my stax effects can't keep up.
But then I get hands that play out like legacy white stax with a quick Tangle Wire, Smokestack, and Crucible. I obv don't expect that everyone, but I wouldn't mind improved consistency.
If you could do me a HUGE favor, and suggest cards to be cut when you suggest cards to add--that would be awesome. I really like most all of these cards, I need to be nudged to cut any!
Thanks for all your help!
Then, if you decide you hate pauper, you can upgrade it with some staple uncommons, dollar rares, other rare staples as your budget deems fit.
Which isn't too different from how I (and many others) currently manage my (their) cube(s)--it really just translates into a willingness to cut staples or almost-staples in the interest of increasing variety and flavor.