I have an idea: Let's massclaim. I'm dead serious here.
Also, I don't like the Bebo case. It's mostly about fencesitting, which is a null tell in basics due to new players. Newer players fencesit on everything, and it's usually because they are paranoid. The don't know who to trust so when they are called to read players, they always leave a little bit of doubt just in case. Like "I really think TIK is town, but his friendliness could be a ploy! Don't be too sure!". That's really what I've been reading from Bebo all game, in regards to me at least. I know Bebo is leaning town on me, but he (she? Sorry lol) accounts for my experience and knows better than to trust too quickly. The case is really built on Fencesitting, and it's a poor foundation. Fencesitting isn't even a huge scumtell, just a minor one to start discussion.
Anyway, my suspects: Heartwork, Shalako.
I'll explain after we handle this massclaim issue. Gogogo discuss!
You may see the point as moot, I don't. If you just weren't paying close enough attention, that's fine I guess, but I expected you to be keeping better track of things for some reason. I'm not trying to blow something I see as minor into something larger, I'm trying to investigate something that concerns me.
Understood. I guess I thought I was clearer that I hadn't read anything since the last time I posted, but I guess not. I saw you as jumping on me for an honest mistake, so I in turn jumped on you a bit. All in all though, it looks like a misunderstanding, but I understand exactly where you are coming from here.
I wasn't insinuating your post was devoid of content, just that line. Your fist pump there just seemed a little over the top, like "Called it! Look how town I am! Follow me!" Is it possibly from a town perspective? Sure. But it pinged my scumdar.
I can understand this too. I shouldn't have said it and figured it might draw flak, but I was happy to be right.
Thanks for your memory. This setup in Shrek has the Tracker as the only investigative role for the town, which is fair. However, a setup with both a cop AND a tracker/watcher plus the regular doc and vig variants is broken as all hell.
So yeah, I was wrong about all trackers/watchers usually being scum, but I'm still convinced that Shalako as a watcher is scum in this game due to his claim being broken if true.
My memory tracks scumtells better than towntells. Shalaktopus hasn't really pinged my scumdar, so I haven't worried about him much. Could he be scum? Sure. He could be pulling a huge WIFOM gambit to try to get out of the lynch today.
Makes sense. What do you say about Shalako barning Naka on Poggy and then switching sides quickly when I bring up Naka as a suspect? Shalako's barny behavior has me worried, especially when both players he pushed against pop up dead town. Didn't he CC Naka in the end, leading to her death? Yeah, I'm not seeing anything that makes me feel better about Shalako.
As I explained previously, my presence faded due to awkward working hours and not catching up on the excessive posts in the game. Did it look like lurking? Sure. But look at my posts: They have content. Pretty much all of them, I'd imagine.
I don't really post unless I have something to say. Does that mean I'll read the thread sometimes and not post? Sure. I don't always have something to say, and sometimes I'd rather keep my thoughts to myself instead of letting scum know what's going on in my head.
I can't argue that. You have been a consistant force in the town. I guess seeing you disappear caught my attention and made me wary. But I have also noticed content and scumhunting in most of, if not all of, your posts, so it kinda makes up for it. I guess after hearing you as the voice of reason for a while and suddenly having you somewhat disappear was a jolt to me.
It felt like a slip because it's the first post you've made that's pinged my scumdar. Which means the townfront you've been using slipped, or I just misread your intentions in the post. I haven't decided yet. So I have my eye on you.
While having a CC would create an interesting situation that we could possibly benefit from, I still don't like the idea of the vig claiming because that means the scum can kill them. I've lost to singleton scum after 2 successful nights before, and I don't want it to happen again. If the vig has more shots, claiming guarantees they only get one more. We can still guide the vig without knowing who they are, or at least discuss enough that they can make an informed decision.
I can relate to the singleton scum loss, happened when ced fooled everyone in Family Mafia. My thought process was that we can nail scum in a lynch today and nail scum with the vig shot, and I guess the claim is best to eliminate a suspect, gives us a better chance to hit with the lynch. Also, the danger of having a vig shoot all willy-nilly and hit a townie is a scary thought. I feel like knowing who the vig is out in the open helps to avoid mistakes like this better than blindly guiding the vig, but I might have gotten caught up in something that I thought was a game breaking idea when it wasn't. I need to think about the vig plan, since I think there's something to be had there, but I see your points. I'll drop it until I've got a more solid plan for it.
As I've pointed out, this isn't really correct. Also, I don't like town that talk in absolutes like this. It doesn't look townie to me. Haven't you said before that town should never be 100% on anything? You're pretty black and white here.
It's not that I felt it was 100%, I just didn't see a downside. Not that there wasn't a downside, I just hadn't seen one. That's also why I wanted people to take it into consideration, so that I might see something I didn't before, which I have now, thanks to you. Still, I never meant to say my plan was a shoo in, but I was just totally bought into it. Now I have thinking to do.
This post makes me happy. I think my whole problem with you was your disappearance. Just don't go AWOL again or I'll have to lynch you! For serious though, this post has reminded me why I had you as town in the first place.
WIFOM. "Look, obviously I'm town because of all the effort I'm putting into this." You don't sound like you're looking for "serious consideration," you sound like you're looking for the claim. Consideration involves discussion. You've stated that there are no downsides. Not no downside that you can see, simply that there is no downside.
Well, I wasn't expecting to skip all discussion and get right at the claim. I thought it was a good idea and wanted more people to think about it and hopefully carry it out. The claim is really just a part of an overall goal for the town, and like I said earlier, I'm not just screaming for the claim all wild-like. I should hope by now that you can see my reasoning, or at least where I was trying to come from on this issue.
You're not paying attention, Tacky. Draco also told us what was up with him. You're pointing fingers with little reasoning.
Sorry, like I said I still need a reread and haven't learned that Draco information until now. So yeah, I saw him pointing fingers for something he himself has done and I called him on it. Draco corrected me on it and the point is moot. This feels like you are trying to blow the issue into larger proportions.
Reads like an attempt to gain townpoints rather than content. Reminding us how he called it earlier.
I understand that would be a damning point against me if it weren't for the fact that I DID actually post content in this post. What I didn't do was step into the thread and gloat about how right I was and then leave. I did call it and am happy, and I left it at that. Now we need to see what we can learn from the Exlight death.
Can't remember our time together in Shrek mafia? I'm crushed. I was the tracker there, and even though you thought I was scum the whole game, I was definitely town. Bad at town, but town. Anyway, Shalako read town to me the whole time. Much more so than Naka or Poggy.
Eh, knew I was missing something. However, did Shrek have both a cop and a tracker? I can't remember, but I don't think so. In this game we have a confirmed cop and a claimed watcher, which indeed seems like much.
Also, care to explain why Shalako read town the entire time?
So you go from thinking I'm obvtown and being happy to have me in the game to thinking I'm scum without posting any evidence for it at all? Please explain, sir.
Your activity has been in question. You are also a fairly experienced, so it's just habit that I keep an eye on you and consider you a suspect. Don't get me wrong, I am glad to have you in this game, as it provides more experience and it means I can rely on you to play the game with less noobieness. However, that doesn't clear you. Happy to have you in the game, but you aren't cleared town. I think I said a LONG time ago that you seemed Obvtown, but your presence is fading. The reread that I'm planning will shed a bit more light.
Why would we want to vig to claim if they had more shots? So we can give up another power role? Even if they were a 1 shot I don't see why they should claim. Might as well make the scum worry about the vig shot tonight, right?
Feels like you're fishing so hard Tacky.
If they have more shots, the vig should claim not only to provide better coordination to the town, but also to add a cleared player to the list. This is the perfect claim with the RB dead too. If the player isn't counterclaimed, they are cleared town and we get to aim the shot much more easily than before. If the player is CCed, we just leave the situation alone and let the real vig among the two kill the liar, as that person is mos-def scum.
Having the vig claim has no downsides, and only would have a downside if the RB were still alive.
Call it fishing, but I feel that the vig claiming is incredibly advantageous to the town.
Besides, if I were just fishing I would claim to want the information and just leave it at that. I'm providing plenty of reasoning and information as to why the vig should claim, so not only do I feel like this is nothing like fishing, but I also feel like, because of the effort that I'm going through to explain how this is good for the town, it deserves serious consideration.
A tracker is useless to the town, and yet having a cop and a tracker would be imba. I don't understand how you can believe both of those statements. You seem to be twisting facts, possibly to lynch Shalako?
We should use the vigs second shot as a second lynch, but most basics only have a one-shot vig.
It strikes me that revealing poggy as town via scum death gave you some serious townie points, Tacky, since you defended him all game. Totally WIFOM, but interesting.
FoS Tacky
BTW, Shalako claimed watcher, not tracker.
First, how does that make me scum?
Second, nothing is a contradiction. A tracker is a weak role for the town, but it's still a power role. Having both a full cop and a tracker gives the town way too much information and can potentially break the game. Add in a Doc and a vig and that's 4 power roles when there is probably only 3 scum. Town PR's outnumbering scum is a good way of telling if something is unbalanced.
Also, the bolded vig part isn't a contradiction at all either. We don't know if the vig is one shot or not, so as for now I'm hoping for a full vig. Normally it is a limited vig, but I don't know that for sure. More reason for the vig to claim. What I'm saying normally there is a limited vig, but here we don't know that, so I'm preparing for if there are more shots. If there aren't more shots then it doesn't matter, but as a town we should hope for multiple shots.
Finally, watcher/tracker, it doesn't matter, they are essentially the same. Watch/Follow one player to see where they are going or what they are doing. Awesome for scum, so-so for town.
If shalako is scum tracker, then that means mafia has two powerroles. If town had only 3 powerroles, would the setup be balanced?
Mafia would have three actually, possibly. RBer, Tracker and Godfather. Godfather has no abilities but is revealed as town when investigated. I've seen many different setups for scumteams, but I've never seen a town setup with four pr's in a basic, especially a town with two investigative roles. A tracker and a cop in a basic on the town side? I don't buy it. That WOULD be totally unbalanced.
As for town balancing, most basics have doc/cop/1-shot vig. The vig is sometimes changed to some other smaller role, but it's totally common for the town to have three power and that's it, at least in a basic.
Said already. I wasn't here for day 1 because of my internet. I requested replacement but kpaca didn't respond so now I'm back. I accused you of lurking because I didn't see you anywhere during Naka's lynch.
I know. I would have been the voice screaming "WHAT ARE YOU FOOLS DOING" at the top of my lung. I need to reread the Naka lynch because that was by far the wrong thing to do. But, it was a weekend and I was at a PTQ, so naka died instead.
Also, am I to understand that you didn't have internet for close to 3 weeks, maybe more, it feels like?
EBWODP: Vig should reveal at this point IMO. I would like to prevent any further townie death and a vig who thinks he can't miss is a great way to kill townies by accident. At this point, we have exactly what we have wanted from the vig, which is at least one dead scum. The vig should reveal today and we can use the vig shot as a potential second lynch. The Scum have no RB anymore, so a vig shot is guaranteed to go through even if the scum kill the vig.
So, we reveal the vig, eliminate a townie from lynch contention and hopefully plan to win the game by the morning of Day 3. I'm all for it.
First, to the dracofaust commentary, I would like to say 1. totally hypocritical attack over lurking. Care to explain why you were lurking so very very long? I haven't lurked in this game, I have posted incredibly regularly, except for weekends. Remember my first post of the game, my little introduction speech? Yeah, I told the town up front that I was going to have limited access on weekends.
Now, on to scum hunting.
Heh, I was right about Exlight. Good. I need to reread Day 1 to recall his interactions, but good job to the vig.
Current suspects: Shalako. Why? He did a lot of flipping and flopping yesterday between two town players, Naka and Poggy, and probably more. He rode along with the attack on both these players, and if he is scum, he would know that it was two townies fighting amongst each other, which is a situation that scum would love to put themselves in.
Secondly, he has claimed tracker right? That would make 4 PR's for the town, which is totally unbelievable in a basic.
Now, I don't doubt that he's a Tracker. However, I believe he's just a scum tracker. Any time I've seen a tracker in a basic, they have been scum. A tracker is very useless to the town because it just lets you know if a player is doing something in the night. That doesn't mean that player is killing someone, just that they are taking an action. It's more commonly used as a scum role, mostly because it tells the scum who in the town is a power role. If the scum-tracker tracks a townie cop or doc, they can better plan their next night's actions and their actions during the day.
I believe that Shalako is scum based on his claim and play yesterday.
Other suspects: iBug, Draco. People to keep your eyes on.
Ok ok ok. Questions that need answering Exlight style.
1. What is the flavor behind why Monster is a vig and has the power to kill?
2. Why would you call yourself alcoholic when you are told in your role PM that you are American? I've never heard of any energy drink being alcoholic in any country, so could someone please help me find a link about Monster being beer in Africa? Also, If you are the American version of Monster, which is well known to be nothing more than an energy drink in the states, why would you say Alcohol?
3. Shalako said you were breadcrumbing your role. Where were these breadcrumbs, and please quote them so that I can confirm this for myself. I recall someone saying you were breadcrumbing Doc, which isn't what you claimed.
There are several inconsistancies with the Ex claim and I would like some answers. A vig is also a claim that scum will tend to make because they can actually back that one up. The scum have the power to kill and so do vigs, so it's something they can fake and still prove their "ability" to the town.
Seems like I've been waiting for answers from Ex all game, and he's only just got into the game. If these questions aren't answered, which I believe to be the most important questions I've asked so far, you can expect my vote to stay right where it is for a while.
Finally, I really don't like how the town backed away so quick from the Ex wagon and went back to Poggy. Something seems fishy about how quickly that wagon died. It was literally "hey nobody has a CC so let's drop it". Doesn't anybody ask questions around here?
It's being rehashed because it's not being paid attention to. People, like you, are passing his Scum plays as inexperience, pressure, and claims without reasons (when those reasons have been provided).
No, wrong. It's being rehashed because you want to rehash it, not because it's a good place to look. Let's do the math.
1. Nothing has changed with Poggy. You have said that he isn't improving but you don't explain how, so this all really clamors back to his early game flailing.
2. You brought it up in the first place and are the one bring it up now. It's not being rehashed by someone who found something new, you aren't providing new information, it's just the same old issue.
Add 1 and 2 and you get 3.
3. I conclude that you are just bulldogging your only target in this game. It would be different if someone else brought this back, or if you had totally new revelations to provide that he's scum, but none of that happened. There's a reason we decided to drop it in the first place: You had poor reasoning to vote him and the only reason YOU aren't the lynch instead is because you claimed cop. You are trying to pick up where you left off, but you need to understand that all you are doing is bulldogging the same player over and over again and it's scummy. Find a new target. You seem motivated and I know there is more than one scum in this game, so scumhunt PLEASE. This isn't scumhunting and it's completely unhelpful to the town.
So, lemme get this straight: You are 100% sure that Poggy is scum?
That's scummy. Nothing is 100% in mafia, which is ironically why we still suspect you too. The only people who can make a legit 100% call is the scum, because obviously they know who is scum and who is not.
Point is that small little quips like this don't do anything for me, it's not convincing me to listen to you. In fact, it's pushing me further away from your case rather than pulling me in. You might be sure of yourself, but that doesn't make you right.
Town don't have a reason to flail. They defend themselves, not flail.
Wrongwrongwrong. People confuse themselves a lot. They think that Flailing is a tell against their role, but in actuality it's a tell to their experience. Whether you are town or scum, if someone comes after you with a 10000 word attack in your first game, you are going to react in a crazy fashion.
Seriously, go read any and every Basic on this site and I guarantee you that someone will flail and they will be town. Scum flail too, but it's pretty even. It might as well be a coin flip whether a flailing person is town or scum. Go look at Shrek Mafia. I totally flailed my ass off when Seppel came after me. Seppel attacked me with what I saw as nonsense and freaked out when he kept the nonsense going.
It's incredibly easy to flail, and there are scum who have made it a tactic to make other townies flail in order to get an easy lynch. I can see how Poggy is flailing as town, mostly because the arguments against him were based on the flavor and not him, which is something he can't defend against without claiming. Then once he did claim, it was turned around on him, further gaming the mod and causing massive frustration. I would have behaved exactly the same if I were in Poggy's shoes. He's town and you've got nothing, so please move on.
He's investigation material. Poggy is either clear Scum or really, really bad Town.
I can recall saying the same thing about you. I'm tired of hearing about you and Poggy's problems, it's not helping.
Also, it's not the town that's ignoring the case, it's just that you are the only one paying attention to it. Well, you and Shalako. Still, I think the dead horse would like to decompose now, and the town has been stalling it's funeral while you do the kicking. I think we are all better off just burying the damn horse.
I go to work for eight hours and I swear this thread blows up every time. I need to play more mini's.
Still don't see Exlight as scum. I think Axelrod put it best earlier when he said the Exlight situation is a mountain/molehill case. He's new and nervous, as I've seen in most of his other games. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's why I had to replace him in Manders Angel mafia. He was responding poorly to pressure on him and began to lurk into replacement. I think this is a similar case, except without the same level of lurking.
In short, I see Ex as a new player that's allergic to pressure and forgot to bring his medication. That, combined with a brutish amount of bulldogging (Manders, Atl and Cyan, I know you've all done it in other games and I think you are doing it here too) leads to what would appear to be a caught scum.
I think this is a good example of poor target selection in the early game. I remember when Vezok started playing, he was the D1 lynch a lot in his games. He always looked like scum, but flipped town more often than not. Now, Ex isn't Vezok, but he's similar in that it's easy to read his actions as scum when he's not.
He's a player to keep an eye on, but a poor first lynch IMO.
I'm much more interested in the Nom case, but I feel that I don't fully understand it yet, as I've only really skimmed the thread. So far, I'm understanding that Nom started the Ex case and then began going against it? Doesn't sound good, will look much closer.
First, I'd like to FoS the town here. Yep, the entire town.
People are being lazy. Instead of scumhunting, people are rehashing the entire poggy debate. In fact, for pages, Naka has been saying that poggy isn't improving, but he doesn't say how. Remember when I cased Naka earlier? I made it a point to show how often Naka will say something and provide absolutely no reasoning for it. Shalako has been at Naka's side during this entire thing helping to rehash the old arguments. This doesn't mean they are scum, just lazy hunters. There are several other people in this game, including me, who haven't had cases or rereads done on them. I encourage you all to do a reread and check out some of the other players, not just Poggy.
I'll also say that I think the biggest point against Poggy is the flailing, and I will remind the town that flailing is done by both town and scum, especially in games with newer people. Flailing is a nulltell and I will not throw my vote for that. The next biggest point against him involves a lot of flavor and mod-gaming, something that I most hella won't vote on. I'm saying now that Poggy isn't scum, especially for the reasons the town has against him. I'll eat my words if he flips scum, but I think it would be more dumb luck on the town than actual scumhunting.
1. read above barned ppost of indomitables. he beat me to it. some games dont have cops. but might have some other role of a watcher type.
2. nope, poggy's early thread flailing is also a reason why he and naka where on my scum list.
3. as far as i know, this is poggy's (first?) maybe second game, neither completed and he hasnt done this in the other game.
revised scum list. SCUM-1. Poggy-ealry flailing and the cop counter claim distraction
Leaning scum-
Naka-even though claims cop-could be lying never know. so IGMEOY
Quietfish-very fast flip off of TIK onto me based on obviously barn and blind following of Tacky, i dont like this.
Leaning town-
Tacky-Even though his attack on me is weak due to not reading everything, he has some valid questions which needed to be answered.
Town-
1. Indomitable bug- logical posting and sense throughout, so far, nothing pings even remotly on my scumdar, so here he goes for now
neutraleveryone else
This post does nearly nothing for me. It doesn't answer many of my questions.
1. Ok. This is an acceptable answer, and just about the only one I'm alright with. I asked the question expecting an answer like this, but wanted to be sure Exlight wasn't totally scummy for having suspicion on Naka.
2. So CC distraction and Flailing are the reasons you are voting Poggy. I'm glad to have you full reasoning here, but first, it's coming long after you made your vote and continually called out Poggy for being scum without saying why.
Poggy flailed a long time ago. If that's why you went and voted him, why didn't you say that when you voted?
Also, why is Flailing a scumtell? Couldn't it be done by a townie as well?
Also, why is the CC issue a scumtell? Do you think the issue is unimportant?
3. Ok, this is completely contradicting everything you said earlier. When you explained your vote, you said he's distracting the town and he does this all the time. Now you are saying that not only has he been town in other games where he might have done this, but you are also saying that he's actually not been distracting in his other games.
I encourage people to reread the past couple of back-and-forth's between me and Exlight. This is a great example right here.
My last post to Exlight contained several points and was quite lengthy if I recall correctly. Exlight's response? Here he quotes three sentances from my post, none of which are the main questions directed at him.
I've asked him for a full response. I present 1000 words against him and he defends with 100 or less. I write an essay and he writes a tweet. There's something wrong there.
Exlight is now dodging questions and suspicion, all while people are lazily hopping back onto Poggy because they have nothing better to do.
I'm stopping that right here. Exlight has been scummy as hell and deserves much more attention than he's getting. So before you vote Poggy since it's easier than doing your own research, remember this: A lazy town is a town led by scum. Be proactive.
Finally, I really dislike the smearing Ex does here. Read his town/scum list. He calls me out for not reading everything.
How? Care to explain rather than make a statement that you hope people will just believe? Cause I think I've done a damn good job at keeping up with this game. If you feel there's something I've missed, point it out. I'm doing it to you, and it's quite annoying, mostly because there is so much that you seem to be missing *COUGH*ignoring*COUGH*.
Seriously, Ex is just making general statement with nothing to back them up, and now he's attacking me, which is somewhat OMGUS, but more importantly, he's smearing me. I won't stand for that.
i am scumhunting. i contributed my thoughts on the naka and poiggy situation.
even though i sorta belive naka's claim, i think we should still be wary of her.
and i see no logic involved at all in poggy's constant harping of cops in past games. thus, i believe this is a distraction and it hampers the town.
I would like a more direct response to my points against you in my last post. You hardly touch them here. Quote them in your post next time, so I know that you know what my points are.
Specific points I can recall:
Reasonless votes and claims against other players
Contradicting scumlist with Naka and Poggy
Choosing weak targets
Furthermore, I still want an answer to why Naka is cleared in your own words.
As for this post I'm quoting, you suddenly have reasoning for your vote! It's scummy to have your reasoning after your vote, mostly because it looks like you were just pushing a lynch while you were looking for a good reason. Usually townies have a good reason to vote someone when they vote, but a scummy person will see a good target for a quick mislynch and vote quickly hoping to lynch a townie. Obviously the scummy person can't post that as their reasoning to vote, or they would out themselves, so they make up a reason instead. However, sometimes a scummy player will be in such a rush to mislynch that they forget the fake reasoning they had planned and just push the lynch and come up with something later.
I think that's exactly what Ex is doing. IIRC, he placed a pretty early vote on Naka as soon as he entered the game and is now hopping wagons once he see's that Naka's is dead. He's hopping onto the next easiest target too, and only now is he giving his reasoning for why Poggy is the next obvious scum.
Next, we have the matter that he thinks Poggy is being distracting with the CC issue. That's his primary reason for voting Poggy that I've seen so far.
First, why is Poggy bringing attention to CC issues a scummy thing? Why does it deserve your voting attention?
Second, are you saying the town shouldn't care about a counterclaim and take a cop claim at face value? You seem to think the issue is a distraction, therefore not valuable. I'm inclined to believe that you are just accepting that Naka's a cop and want to move on to the next lynch. It's tipping your scumhat.
Finally, you mention that Poggy has rambled about cops in previous games and it was distracting. Was poggy scum in any of the games he did this, or was he town?
I expect a very detailed response. I think this will be a good direction for the town to head.
All in all, I think this quoted post above does very little to explain your vote, and it only raises more questions of your own character.
Also, I don't like the Bebo case. It's mostly about fencesitting, which is a null tell in basics due to new players. Newer players fencesit on everything, and it's usually because they are paranoid. The don't know who to trust so when they are called to read players, they always leave a little bit of doubt just in case. Like "I really think TIK is town, but his friendliness could be a ploy! Don't be too sure!". That's really what I've been reading from Bebo all game, in regards to me at least. I know Bebo is leaning town on me, but he (she? Sorry lol) accounts for my experience and knows better than to trust too quickly. The case is really built on Fencesitting, and it's a poor foundation. Fencesitting isn't even a huge scumtell, just a minor one to start discussion.
Anyway, my suspects: Heartwork, Shalako.
I'll explain after we handle this massclaim issue. Gogogo discuss!
Understood. I guess I thought I was clearer that I hadn't read anything since the last time I posted, but I guess not. I saw you as jumping on me for an honest mistake, so I in turn jumped on you a bit. All in all though, it looks like a misunderstanding, but I understand exactly where you are coming from here.
I can understand this too. I shouldn't have said it and figured it might draw flak, but I was happy to be right.
Thanks for your memory. This setup in Shrek has the Tracker as the only investigative role for the town, which is fair. However, a setup with both a cop AND a tracker/watcher plus the regular doc and vig variants is broken as all hell.
So yeah, I was wrong about all trackers/watchers usually being scum, but I'm still convinced that Shalako as a watcher is scum in this game due to his claim being broken if true.
Makes sense. What do you say about Shalako barning Naka on Poggy and then switching sides quickly when I bring up Naka as a suspect? Shalako's barny behavior has me worried, especially when both players he pushed against pop up dead town. Didn't he CC Naka in the end, leading to her death? Yeah, I'm not seeing anything that makes me feel better about Shalako.
I can't argue that. You have been a consistant force in the town. I guess seeing you disappear caught my attention and made me wary. But I have also noticed content and scumhunting in most of, if not all of, your posts, so it kinda makes up for it. I guess after hearing you as the voice of reason for a while and suddenly having you somewhat disappear was a jolt to me.
Understood.
I can relate to the singleton scum loss, happened when ced fooled everyone in Family Mafia. My thought process was that we can nail scum in a lynch today and nail scum with the vig shot, and I guess the claim is best to eliminate a suspect, gives us a better chance to hit with the lynch. Also, the danger of having a vig shoot all willy-nilly and hit a townie is a scary thought. I feel like knowing who the vig is out in the open helps to avoid mistakes like this better than blindly guiding the vig, but I might have gotten caught up in something that I thought was a game breaking idea when it wasn't. I need to think about the vig plan, since I think there's something to be had there, but I see your points. I'll drop it until I've got a more solid plan for it.
It's not that I felt it was 100%, I just didn't see a downside. Not that there wasn't a downside, I just hadn't seen one. That's also why I wanted people to take it into consideration, so that I might see something I didn't before, which I have now, thanks to you. Still, I never meant to say my plan was a shoo in, but I was just totally bought into it. Now I have thinking to do.
Agree to disagree?
This post makes me happy. I think my whole problem with you was your disappearance. Just don't go AWOL again or I'll have to lynch you! For serious though, this post has reminded me why I had you as town in the first place.
Well, I wasn't expecting to skip all discussion and get right at the claim. I thought it was a good idea and wanted more people to think about it and hopefully carry it out. The claim is really just a part of an overall goal for the town, and like I said earlier, I'm not just screaming for the claim all wild-like. I should hope by now that you can see my reasoning, or at least where I was trying to come from on this issue.
I've got nothing.
I meant to say more, but I'm getting kicked off, so more later.
Sorry, like I said I still need a reread and haven't learned that Draco information until now. So yeah, I saw him pointing fingers for something he himself has done and I called him on it. Draco corrected me on it and the point is moot. This feels like you are trying to blow the issue into larger proportions.
I understand that would be a damning point against me if it weren't for the fact that I DID actually post content in this post. What I didn't do was step into the thread and gloat about how right I was and then leave. I did call it and am happy, and I left it at that. Now we need to see what we can learn from the Exlight death.
Eh, knew I was missing something. However, did Shrek have both a cop and a tracker? I can't remember, but I don't think so. In this game we have a confirmed cop and a claimed watcher, which indeed seems like much.
Also, care to explain why Shalako read town the entire time?
Your activity has been in question. You are also a fairly experienced, so it's just habit that I keep an eye on you and consider you a suspect. Don't get me wrong, I am glad to have you in this game, as it provides more experience and it means I can rely on you to play the game with less noobieness. However, that doesn't clear you. Happy to have you in the game, but you aren't cleared town. I think I said a LONG time ago that you seemed Obvtown, but your presence is fading. The reread that I'm planning will shed a bit more light.
A slip implies that I said something revealing when I didn't mean to. Where did I "slip" in this post?
If they have more shots, the vig should claim not only to provide better coordination to the town, but also to add a cleared player to the list. This is the perfect claim with the RB dead too. If the player isn't counterclaimed, they are cleared town and we get to aim the shot much more easily than before. If the player is CCed, we just leave the situation alone and let the real vig among the two kill the liar, as that person is mos-def scum.
Having the vig claim has no downsides, and only would have a downside if the RB were still alive.
Call it fishing, but I feel that the vig claiming is incredibly advantageous to the town.
Besides, if I were just fishing I would claim to want the information and just leave it at that. I'm providing plenty of reasoning and information as to why the vig should claim, so not only do I feel like this is nothing like fishing, but I also feel like, because of the effort that I'm going through to explain how this is good for the town, it deserves serious consideration.
First, how does that make me scum?
Second, nothing is a contradiction. A tracker is a weak role for the town, but it's still a power role. Having both a full cop and a tracker gives the town way too much information and can potentially break the game. Add in a Doc and a vig and that's 4 power roles when there is probably only 3 scum. Town PR's outnumbering scum is a good way of telling if something is unbalanced.
Also, the bolded vig part isn't a contradiction at all either. We don't know if the vig is one shot or not, so as for now I'm hoping for a full vig. Normally it is a limited vig, but I don't know that for sure. More reason for the vig to claim. What I'm saying normally there is a limited vig, but here we don't know that, so I'm preparing for if there are more shots. If there aren't more shots then it doesn't matter, but as a town we should hope for multiple shots.
Finally, watcher/tracker, it doesn't matter, they are essentially the same. Watch/Follow one player to see where they are going or what they are doing. Awesome for scum, so-so for town.
Mafia would have three actually, possibly. RBer, Tracker and Godfather. Godfather has no abilities but is revealed as town when investigated. I've seen many different setups for scumteams, but I've never seen a town setup with four pr's in a basic, especially a town with two investigative roles. A tracker and a cop in a basic on the town side? I don't buy it. That WOULD be totally unbalanced.
As for town balancing, most basics have doc/cop/1-shot vig. The vig is sometimes changed to some other smaller role, but it's totally common for the town to have three power and that's it, at least in a basic.
I know. I would have been the voice screaming "WHAT ARE YOU FOOLS DOING" at the top of my lung. I need to reread the Naka lynch because that was by far the wrong thing to do. But, it was a weekend and I was at a PTQ, so naka died instead.
Also, am I to understand that you didn't have internet for close to 3 weeks, maybe more, it feels like?
So, we reveal the vig, eliminate a townie from lynch contention and hopefully plan to win the game by the morning of Day 3. I'm all for it.
Now, on to scum hunting.
Heh, I was right about Exlight. Good. I need to reread Day 1 to recall his interactions, but good job to the vig.
Current suspects: Shalako. Why? He did a lot of flipping and flopping yesterday between two town players, Naka and Poggy, and probably more. He rode along with the attack on both these players, and if he is scum, he would know that it was two townies fighting amongst each other, which is a situation that scum would love to put themselves in.
Secondly, he has claimed tracker right? That would make 4 PR's for the town, which is totally unbelievable in a basic.
Now, I don't doubt that he's a Tracker. However, I believe he's just a scum tracker. Any time I've seen a tracker in a basic, they have been scum. A tracker is very useless to the town because it just lets you know if a player is doing something in the night. That doesn't mean that player is killing someone, just that they are taking an action. It's more commonly used as a scum role, mostly because it tells the scum who in the town is a power role. If the scum-tracker tracks a townie cop or doc, they can better plan their next night's actions and their actions during the day.
I believe that Shalako is scum based on his claim and play yesterday.
Other suspects: iBug, Draco. People to keep your eyes on.
That is all.
1. What is the flavor behind why Monster is a vig and has the power to kill?
2. Why would you call yourself alcoholic when you are told in your role PM that you are American? I've never heard of any energy drink being alcoholic in any country, so could someone please help me find a link about Monster being beer in Africa? Also, If you are the American version of Monster, which is well known to be nothing more than an energy drink in the states, why would you say Alcohol?
3. Shalako said you were breadcrumbing your role. Where were these breadcrumbs, and please quote them so that I can confirm this for myself. I recall someone saying you were breadcrumbing Doc, which isn't what you claimed.
There are several inconsistancies with the Ex claim and I would like some answers. A vig is also a claim that scum will tend to make because they can actually back that one up. The scum have the power to kill and so do vigs, so it's something they can fake and still prove their "ability" to the town.
Seems like I've been waiting for answers from Ex all game, and he's only just got into the game. If these questions aren't answered, which I believe to be the most important questions I've asked so far, you can expect my vote to stay right where it is for a while.
Finally, I really don't like how the town backed away so quick from the Ex wagon and went back to Poggy. Something seems fishy about how quickly that wagon died. It was literally "hey nobody has a CC so let's drop it". Doesn't anybody ask questions around here?
No, wrong. It's being rehashed because you want to rehash it, not because it's a good place to look. Let's do the math.
1. Nothing has changed with Poggy. You have said that he isn't improving but you don't explain how, so this all really clamors back to his early game flailing.
2. You brought it up in the first place and are the one bring it up now. It's not being rehashed by someone who found something new, you aren't providing new information, it's just the same old issue.
Add 1 and 2 and you get 3.
3. I conclude that you are just bulldogging your only target in this game. It would be different if someone else brought this back, or if you had totally new revelations to provide that he's scum, but none of that happened. There's a reason we decided to drop it in the first place: You had poor reasoning to vote him and the only reason YOU aren't the lynch instead is because you claimed cop. You are trying to pick up where you left off, but you need to understand that all you are doing is bulldogging the same player over and over again and it's scummy. Find a new target. You seem motivated and I know there is more than one scum in this game, so scumhunt PLEASE. This isn't scumhunting and it's completely unhelpful to the town.
So, lemme get this straight: You are 100% sure that Poggy is scum?
That's scummy. Nothing is 100% in mafia, which is ironically why we still suspect you too. The only people who can make a legit 100% call is the scum, because obviously they know who is scum and who is not.
Point is that small little quips like this don't do anything for me, it's not convincing me to listen to you. In fact, it's pushing me further away from your case rather than pulling me in. You might be sure of yourself, but that doesn't make you right.
Wrongwrongwrong. People confuse themselves a lot. They think that Flailing is a tell against their role, but in actuality it's a tell to their experience. Whether you are town or scum, if someone comes after you with a 10000 word attack in your first game, you are going to react in a crazy fashion.
Seriously, go read any and every Basic on this site and I guarantee you that someone will flail and they will be town. Scum flail too, but it's pretty even. It might as well be a coin flip whether a flailing person is town or scum. Go look at Shrek Mafia. I totally flailed my ass off when Seppel came after me. Seppel attacked me with what I saw as nonsense and freaked out when he kept the nonsense going.
It's incredibly easy to flail, and there are scum who have made it a tactic to make other townies flail in order to get an easy lynch. I can see how Poggy is flailing as town, mostly because the arguments against him were based on the flavor and not him, which is something he can't defend against without claiming. Then once he did claim, it was turned around on him, further gaming the mod and causing massive frustration. I would have behaved exactly the same if I were in Poggy's shoes. He's town and you've got nothing, so please move on.
I can recall saying the same thing about you. I'm tired of hearing about you and Poggy's problems, it's not helping.
Also, it's not the town that's ignoring the case, it's just that you are the only one paying attention to it. Well, you and Shalako. Still, I think the dead horse would like to decompose now, and the town has been stalling it's funeral while you do the kicking. I think we are all better off just burying the damn horse.
Still don't see Exlight as scum. I think Axelrod put it best earlier when he said the Exlight situation is a mountain/molehill case. He's new and nervous, as I've seen in most of his other games. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's why I had to replace him in Manders Angel mafia. He was responding poorly to pressure on him and began to lurk into replacement. I think this is a similar case, except without the same level of lurking.
In short, I see Ex as a new player that's allergic to pressure and forgot to bring his medication. That, combined with a brutish amount of bulldogging (Manders, Atl and Cyan, I know you've all done it in other games and I think you are doing it here too) leads to what would appear to be a caught scum.
I think this is a good example of poor target selection in the early game. I remember when Vezok started playing, he was the D1 lynch a lot in his games. He always looked like scum, but flipped town more often than not. Now, Ex isn't Vezok, but he's similar in that it's easy to read his actions as scum when he's not.
He's a player to keep an eye on, but a poor first lynch IMO.
I'm much more interested in the Nom case, but I feel that I don't fully understand it yet, as I've only really skimmed the thread. So far, I'm understanding that Nom started the Ex case and then began going against it? Doesn't sound good, will look much closer.
People are being lazy. Instead of scumhunting, people are rehashing the entire poggy debate. In fact, for pages, Naka has been saying that poggy isn't improving, but he doesn't say how. Remember when I cased Naka earlier? I made it a point to show how often Naka will say something and provide absolutely no reasoning for it. Shalako has been at Naka's side during this entire thing helping to rehash the old arguments. This doesn't mean they are scum, just lazy hunters. There are several other people in this game, including me, who haven't had cases or rereads done on them. I encourage you all to do a reread and check out some of the other players, not just Poggy.
I'll also say that I think the biggest point against Poggy is the flailing, and I will remind the town that flailing is done by both town and scum, especially in games with newer people. Flailing is a nulltell and I will not throw my vote for that. The next biggest point against him involves a lot of flavor and mod-gaming, something that I most hella won't vote on. I'm saying now that Poggy isn't scum, especially for the reasons the town has against him. I'll eat my words if he flips scum, but I think it would be more dumb luck on the town than actual scumhunting.
Moving on.
This post does nearly nothing for me. It doesn't answer many of my questions.
1. Ok. This is an acceptable answer, and just about the only one I'm alright with. I asked the question expecting an answer like this, but wanted to be sure Exlight wasn't totally scummy for having suspicion on Naka.
2. So CC distraction and Flailing are the reasons you are voting Poggy. I'm glad to have you full reasoning here, but first, it's coming long after you made your vote and continually called out Poggy for being scum without saying why.
Poggy flailed a long time ago. If that's why you went and voted him, why didn't you say that when you voted?
Also, why is Flailing a scumtell? Couldn't it be done by a townie as well?
Also, why is the CC issue a scumtell? Do you think the issue is unimportant?
3. Ok, this is completely contradicting everything you said earlier. When you explained your vote, you said he's distracting the town and he does this all the time. Now you are saying that not only has he been town in other games where he might have done this, but you are also saying that he's actually not been distracting in his other games.
I encourage people to reread the past couple of back-and-forth's between me and Exlight. This is a great example right here.
My last post to Exlight contained several points and was quite lengthy if I recall correctly. Exlight's response? Here he quotes three sentances from my post, none of which are the main questions directed at him.
I've asked him for a full response. I present 1000 words against him and he defends with 100 or less. I write an essay and he writes a tweet. There's something wrong there.
Exlight is now dodging questions and suspicion, all while people are lazily hopping back onto Poggy because they have nothing better to do.
I'm stopping that right here. Exlight has been scummy as hell and deserves much more attention than he's getting. So before you vote Poggy since it's easier than doing your own research, remember this: A lazy town is a town led by scum. Be proactive.
Finally, I really dislike the smearing Ex does here. Read his town/scum list. He calls me out for not reading everything.
How? Care to explain rather than make a statement that you hope people will just believe? Cause I think I've done a damn good job at keeping up with this game. If you feel there's something I've missed, point it out. I'm doing it to you, and it's quite annoying, mostly because there is so much that you seem to be missing *COUGH*ignoring*COUGH*.
Seriously, Ex is just making general statement with nothing to back them up, and now he's attacking me, which is somewhat OMGUS, but more importantly, he's smearing me. I won't stand for that.
Reread people. It's super-secret tech!
I would like a more direct response to my points against you in my last post. You hardly touch them here. Quote them in your post next time, so I know that you know what my points are.
Specific points I can recall:
Reasonless votes and claims against other players
Contradicting scumlist with Naka and Poggy
Choosing weak targets
Furthermore, I still want an answer to why Naka is cleared in your own words.
As for this post I'm quoting, you suddenly have reasoning for your vote! It's scummy to have your reasoning after your vote, mostly because it looks like you were just pushing a lynch while you were looking for a good reason. Usually townies have a good reason to vote someone when they vote, but a scummy person will see a good target for a quick mislynch and vote quickly hoping to lynch a townie. Obviously the scummy person can't post that as their reasoning to vote, or they would out themselves, so they make up a reason instead. However, sometimes a scummy player will be in such a rush to mislynch that they forget the fake reasoning they had planned and just push the lynch and come up with something later.
I think that's exactly what Ex is doing. IIRC, he placed a pretty early vote on Naka as soon as he entered the game and is now hopping wagons once he see's that Naka's is dead. He's hopping onto the next easiest target too, and only now is he giving his reasoning for why Poggy is the next obvious scum.
Next, we have the matter that he thinks Poggy is being distracting with the CC issue. That's his primary reason for voting Poggy that I've seen so far.
First, why is Poggy bringing attention to CC issues a scummy thing? Why does it deserve your voting attention?
Second, are you saying the town shouldn't care about a counterclaim and take a cop claim at face value? You seem to think the issue is a distraction, therefore not valuable. I'm inclined to believe that you are just accepting that Naka's a cop and want to move on to the next lynch. It's tipping your scumhat.
Finally, you mention that Poggy has rambled about cops in previous games and it was distracting. Was poggy scum in any of the games he did this, or was he town?
I expect a very detailed response. I think this will be a good direction for the town to head.
All in all, I think this quoted post above does very little to explain your vote, and it only raises more questions of your own character.