What do you think of people's views of you being Scum?
Yeah, Poggy is town. His flailing in the beginning didn't really appear as flailing to me, just town dealing with an asinine situation. He was facing a bulldoging Naka with some very poor points based on flavor. Really, the only responses he could have made were the ones he made, and eventually it becomes a tiresome and frustrating ordeal. His responses became flailish towards the end, but from my experience, townies flail just as much, if not more, than scum. Also, he's taken the cop issue to a whole new level, something that screams townie when I'm reading it coming from a newer player. It shows a true investment into the game and it shows strong signs of scumhunting. Even though there likely is no CC, it's still very important to be looking for one, as that will out a scum somewhere. Poggy taking this issue too seriously is a town tell IMO.
As for his fight with Naka, that helped to clear him before, but now that Naka is mostly-confirmed town, not so much. However, the fact that Poggy kept up his play instead of disappear AND the fact that a few other players did disappear during their fight, makes me believe that the Naka-Poggy brawl was a town brawl. That, plus the reasons listed above, give me a town read on the PogMan.
As for people with scum-views on me, that's fine. If they think I'm scum, they will present their opinions and we'll take it from there. I haven't seen any of that though, and I've only seen a few people mention that they are keeping their eye on me because I'm experienced and might be pulling a trick or something. I'm not really worried about that stuff, and it actually gives me better town reads on those people, because I expect them to keep an eye on me just as much as they keep an eye on everyone else. A good townie will be watching everyone.
Back to the point though, if there comes a time when everyone suspects me then we'll cross that bridge when it comes, but until that time, I'm going to continue to scumhunt instead of dwell on possible suspicion.
I didn't mean that CC is bad. What i ment was that if naka was scum he might claim cop to see who would CC. A thought and probably a bad one reviewing it. It could also confuse the doctor. Looking back at it my point is totally flawed.
Actually, and I think Shalako covered this, but this is a common scum tactic. That's not to say that Naka is scum, just that she could be scum trying to out a PR.
Let me take this time to mention that we should drop the cop issue. The only thing I want to hear on the issue anymore is the CC's/no CC's from players who haven't yet. I don't care for the speculation that there isn't a cop at all and I don't care for the "that's not how you play cop" arguments. The fact is that Naka claimed cop and hasn't been CCed. There are two things you never lynch in Mafia: UnCCed Doc and UnCCed Cop. If Naka is lying, we'll deal with it later, but for now, she's not the lynch for the day and we should drop it to continue the hunt.
So wait, your top two on your scumlist were Naka, who was heavily attacking Poggy all game, and then Poggy? That doesn't make sense. You think they are both scum, attacking each other this early in the game? I need you to validate your reasoning for me.
Exlight is screaming scum to me, and I think this post is a good sign that he's just picking at weak targets. The two top players on his scumlist have not only opposed each other nearly the entire game, but they have been the largest targets the entire game too. His logic is flawed and I think he's scum.
Vote Exlight
I want a response to this before I go into more detail.
So, I was re-reading the thread, trying to make sense of whats going on. And I came across this gem. I actually ran nearly this exact gambit as scum in a game on another site, trying to convince the town that it makes sense for a uncounterclaimed power role to not be killed by the Mafia because it can just be roleblocked, when actually the Mafia just has alternative reasons to keep them alive. In this case, my theory is that Naka is Mafia, as is Ice King, and this whole cop claim is a gambit. This post keeps the pressure off naka in the event that he survives the night (note that the doctor protection won't do it, as the Mafia plans on killing someone else).
This post in itself is obviously not enough, there's an element of WIFOM involved (although, IMO, small). As such, I went through the game looking at the Naka/Ice King interactions. The PBPA follows:
This is the second post in the game for each of them (first posts were largely irrelevant). Not much here, but it sets the tone for many of the interactions to follow. Of note is Ice King acting passively, asking for discussion lines to follow while Naka takes control and directs the town as its leader by supplying a discussion route. These attitudes complement each other, as a self-imposed leader with a guy following him is much more influential than a leader with no followers.
Naka keeps posturing to be the leader of the town. Her directive at the end of each post is soon to become classic Naka, and makes it clear she is trying to lead the flow of the towns discussion.
Again, a directive at the end of the post. A less serious one, but still, a clear leadership role by Naka.
A directing question.
Taking a superior posture via absolute game theory and then, again, posturing as a leader. I'm gonna stop including everytime Naka does a leader posturing post, cause its nearly all of them until she dissappears for a while. The, on their own, are not really significant, as towns people try to lead all the time. What is significant is the subtle way Ice King supports her leadership while opposing her.
Ice wanders back into the game here, having been absent through the whole draco episode and the poggy tasteless claim. Somehow, he's missed all that. Hopefully a leader can step in and show him the light...
Hoorah! So Naka directs Ice, how will he take it?
Beautiful. He does respond to Nakas direction, further reinforcing his passive-willing-to-be-led-by-Naka style. He then goes on to say that the town needs to organize itself. Hmmm...so he follows Naka, and the subtly suggest that others do the same. However, he doesn't respond to the tasteless claim as Naka asked, so, way to show some backbone.
Oh, nvm. He corrects that oversight shortly (note that there was only 1 post, one of bebos, between this one and the one before). So, Ice continues to follow Nakas direction. But in this post a new trend begins to emerge: he's following Naka, but he's also opposing her opinion, as Naka thinks poggy claim is significant. It is certainly a little odd to follow someone who you don't think is on the right trail.
So, Naka begins to push for a softclaim, and Ice King responds (being led to the discussion), but again, opposes Naka, lightly chastising her. In my mind, its becoming clear that this was a set-up plan: Naka trys to become a leader, Ice King supports her subtly by following, but opposes her opinions instead of barning her so that when one flips scum, the other doesn't go down. Its interesting that >90% of Ice Kings posts are interactions with Naka, and no one noticed because the intense buddying Naka had with Shalako overshadowed it.
Ice King opposes Naka's proposed claim, but states his willingness to be led along a different path. The same posturing as always.
This is in response to the above Ice post. Tacky mentioned in his PBPA that the why don't you propose a soft-claim comment is a pretty clear jab at Ice, I agree. It establishes animosity between the two, but at the same time, reinforces the leadership posturing thats been going on the whole time.
Ice actually strikes out on his own a bit here. Sure, he does so in support of Nakas campaign on poggy, but its a bit different from the norm and worth noting. In the second paragraph, theres a really cool interaction: on the surface he's opposing Naka, as hes just laughing in his face, as Naka just called poggy out on being scummy for FoS instead of voting. However, by acknowledging the issue at all, Ice King is tacitly implying that Naka's opinions are of critical importance -- she's his leader, even when they disagree. He then, makes sure to respond to Naka. Can't ignore the leader.
The important part is the second paragraph, the incoming wrath at Ice King for being conservative with his vote.
...
Oh wait...
Yeah, she called him on it....but it was really lukewarm. Get your heart into it, Naka! Poggy got so much more fire for the exact same thing. Others have commented on this, and its really pretty scummy.
Ice king is continuing to be nearly the perfect follower, although he's branching out from just Naka. He's responding to every issue on the table, but not really providing new content, or even attempting to forge discussion ahead. The whole point of establishing Naka as a leader was so that people would go where she lead. She lead to the poggy wagon, and now Ice is distancing himself slightly from her, while still being a follower. He's also now supporting the poggy wagon: sensing weakness, the Mafia strikes on poor flailing poggy. Also of note is that his self-meta is way off here: he claims he likes being the center of attention, but has clearly allowed himself to be led to this point.
At this point, Naka dissappears and Tacky calls attention to how scummy Naka has been, and the Naka wagon starts. Ice King is conspiciously absent...and then Shalako makes some pressure comment and votes him:
Ice King responds promptly to that, despite staying quiet on nearly everything else. Pretty scummy. Also, there is no content in this post.
Makes the totally legitimate case to slow down the Naka wagon as she is not here. Rest of the post doesn't have much in it, aside from pointedly not flailing under one vote. The naka thing is hard to characterize: it's a good play for anyone to slow down the wagon while she's not here, but, if she's mafia, its 100% necessary for her scumbuddies to do so.
Another content-light post. I kind of feel like Ice is trying hard to stay visible while not saying too much. The most content-filled thing is the @ Bug, which is cute, in that he says he doesn't think shalako and naka are both scum...clearly he doesn't think one of them is scum, but doesn't say which, so that he can equivocate it later, depending on if they decide to buss naka or not. I think the townie play would be to say which one you think is not mafia.
There was some debate over this later about whether or not Naka claimed a power role. Its clear to me that he strongly hinted at it. It would have been really easy to just ignore the whole thing, or post an explanation of why a vanilla townie should play as hes been playing. Instead, he's setting the stage for his cop claim.
Ice is finally back. Apparently the completely reasonable amount of action and the two major cases (Naka and Poggy) bore him. Sorry. He then manages to post very little content, aside from saying that nothing is confirmed yet -- which is fairly obvious.
Ice jumping on heartwork in the defense of naka. Heart's point was pretty valid, and this post of Ice's is kind of shady. I mean, if you don't think naka claimed power role, fine. However, I see no reason to vote Heart here. It's a reasonable interpretation of naka's post. Ice doesn't give a reason for voting heart, just refutes heart's vote placement. Also, I totally remember him claiming to be a conservative voter....
Yet another TIK post that doesn't prove much content, just kind of meanders in there and answers a question and drifts back out. He has yet to make a solid case for anything.
This PBPA is getting easier, for the last several pages I've just scrolled to the TIK posts and commented on how their not really saying anything.
Woah. That's a lot of exclamation points. Yes, Poggy made a mistake. Kind of a shady mistake. And then you just HoS him instead of a vote. You voted Heartwork for FAR less. I kind of feel like you can't vote poggy because that would be too many scum on his wagon, trying to stay clear. I don't know.
So now the whole Naka claiming thing happens. I think the way it happened was pretty relevant, so I'm gonna quote like 6 posts in a row that happened chronologically.
Vote Count is L-2
So she doesn't want to claim. Then poggy says very unforcefully that he would like a claim, and Naka changes to being willing. Poggy, the person Naka hates, has inspired this change. Interesting.
The "hammer" on this claim vote that Naka started on himself is Reya, a player that Naka has railed on for being noobish this whole game. Poggy + Reya is all it takes.
There was a lot of confusion about the vote count, Shalakos unvote actually made it L-3. Its a good thing he did this so quick, so Naka doesn't have to claim.
Not good. Naka claimed. For someone who didn't want to, he sure did it under little pressure and ended up basically prompting it himself. I've come to the conclusion that Naka wanted to claim, that this is a scum gambit.
I've been trying to avoid posting about how scummy Naka is cuz its been done to death. He only didn't get lynched cuz of un CCed cop. But look at this post. He decides that poggy is town JUST LONG ENOUGH to be 'pressured' into claiming by him (when its pretty clear that Naka wanted to claim) and then immediatly shifts his vote and his suspicion back on poggy for an extremely flimsy reason. Naka made the exact same mistake on the vote count, since he claimed at L-3. Of course, I would assume that you double check the vote count at least twice before claiming cop to make sure, especially when its as clearly erroneous as it is, but Naka apparently doesn't want to do that.
Ice King, saying obvious things and supporting Naka. Again, another perfect opportunity to shift his vote to poggy, who just suggested lynching an un-counter-claimed cop, but didn't. I maintain he is under scum 'orders' to not vote poggy in order to prevent the whole scum being on his wagon in the vote counts.
The post that started the re-read. This whole cop claim looks more and more like a huge scum gambit, more on this post-spoiler in the summary of my read of the scums plan.
Further setting up Naka's continued existence to not be suspicious.
Yeah. Support of his earlier RB theory, and an attempt to move on before everyone checks in on the CC. We have infinite time, so waiting for everyone to post saying their not CCing (or at least post so we know their aware) is not a bad idea. However, if there is a CC waiting in the wings and the scum speed lynch poggy before that happens...thats pretty good for them.
So, in summary:
Ice King and Naka = scumbuddies.
They start off by working together to make Naka into a leader of the town and thus able to control the discussion, while they disagree on all content things, so as to not be accused of buddying. Naka, as the one in the limelight, is the one that is prepped to be eventually bussed, and as such, befriends Shalako to 1) overshadow his Ice King relationship and 2) take a townie with him, hopefully. This plan worked really well for a while/
Naka dissappears and the naka wagon forms. Ice King largely stays out of it, trys to slow it down, but mostly lurks and doesn't really post much during this time period.
Naka comes back and ends up claiming cop. This looks like a prepared scum gambit that can go one of two ways:
Naka's counterclaimed: Scum finds the cop, trades a scum who was probably going to be lynched anyway for knowledge of the cop. If their lucky they manage to lynch the other cop. Can probably use Naka's lynch to earn townie points by bussing him. Not great, but not bad either. Better than letting Naka just die.
Naka is not counterclaimed: This is amazing for the scum. They get a guy who is high probabibility townie who can than resume her leadership role and direct a few mislynches in the name of scumhunting. The scum not killing her is answered by TIKs RBing theory, which also explains why she doesn't have any information results.
Now, its important to note that Naka not being CCed does not mean she is the cop. That is not necessarily a cop in this game (if there is no cop in this game, this is the best case scenario for the scum, as their gambit is the most successful with no risk. I did some research on basics: from basic 1-22, the following games had no cops:
7, 8, 9, 10, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22
#11 had no townie cop, but a mafia rolecop.
It is entirely plausible that there is no townie cop to counterclaim Naka.
So, it is bad to lynch Naka here, as he could be the cop, and no way do we want to mislynch our cop. Instead I vote we lynch TIK. His scum case is really solid, and the interactions with Naka drive it over the top. Today we lynch TIK, and when he flips scum, naka becomes an easy lynch day 2.
Vote: The Ice King
In the interest of full disclosure, I currently put the third member of the mafia as IBug. I'm not nearly as sure about this one, but he played into the cop gambit a bit too and his interactions with TIK and naka are a bit suspicious. I'd rather not make that case right now, as TIK is a better lynch and there will be more info tomorrow.
I don't think this is correct at all, but I do think that QF is town. This post required effort, more effort than most scum will apply in a basic. I like this post if only for it's length.
It's just not solid because 1. it pushes for a scum-Naka, which isn't likely 2. assumes a connection between two players and is primarily based around that and 3. applies a Meta on basics that is faulty.
The list of basics that have and do not have cops isn't going to help any because they are all by different people. Each mod can design a game however they want, therefore a proper meta would focus more on a specific Mod's games. So if someone told me that SomeOne has ran 10 basic games and out of those 10, 9 didn't have a cop, I'd be more willing to believe the argument. However, I don't know that Someone has hosted more than this game, so the sample of information available to us becomes incredibly small, which means that we are more likely to make a mistake rather than apply the meta in a proper way. Know what I mean?
i dont like how this day has stalled over a cop role.
i still think we should be suspicious of naka. but all this distraction by poggy is not good.
Wait wait wait. If you don't like the stalling, why don't you scumhunt?
Also, aren't you already voting for poggy and calling him scum without rhyme or reason? So why now are you saying that the Poggy situation is a "distraction" and going back to the Naka issue? Shouldn't Poggy be your main focus, since, you know, you've been calling him scum for pages and are currently voting him? And I thought you cleared Naka. I agree that we should still be suspicious, but I want to hear your answer of why. This post is almost completly contradicting your recent activity in the thread.
Just skimmed the thread, more tomorrow, but here's some quick thoughts.
Don't like Naka's responses, but UnCC'ed Cop claim is way more than enough for an Unvote. The doc will protect Naka tonight, and anyone who is the doc should not claim at all today, no matter the pressure. In fact, I would prefer less claims today. One is enough, lets not out the whole town day 1.
However, I do have a strong list of suspect, here's a list with more explaination tomorrow.
Scumlist:
1. Exlight: his posts and voting seem like he's really trying to make up for lost time and take advantage of a possible mislynch. This isn't the random townie Ex I'm used to seeing, this Ex has fangs IMO.
2. Draco: I have issue's with Naka's posts, but one thing Naka did get me onto was Draco again, or more importantly, the lack of Draco. Sure, her attack on him was fairly weak in the beginning, but he's disappeared since. This actually fits his scum meta I think, as well as confirm Naka and Poggy as town. Draco disappeared after their fight and has showed up sparingly ever since. Scum usually disappear during town fights, to talk advantage of town confusion. Seeing as how I've got a town read on both Poggy and Naka as of now, this might be exactly what's happening.'
3. Naka: Yeah, I know I've been saying she's cleared town, but not everyone has checked in on the claim I don't think. Haven't heard from Quietfish or Heart for a while. I encourage you, if you are the real cop and know that Naka is lying for a fact, please counter claim. If someone checks in and casts a CC, I'll be a bit more serious about the end of this scumlist, but seeing as CC's rarely happen, I'm just waiting to see if a miracle happens. At the point when everyone checks in, she's off this list, essentially.
Ok, so I've had a pretty terrible day, so sorry in advance if I sound a bit brutish.
So, here's the first wall post in the game, showing just about everything I would have said at the time, but instead I'm saying it now. Drunkenly. That's right.
Just pinged my radar that the joking "thirst-quenching" done by TIK here might be a little smidgen of a clue as to his role, like a secret one, and this is actually incredibly serious, unlike the fake joke hidden code that Naka found in Draco. Getting to that soon...
Anyway, it's nothing at all really, just pure specualtion. I like to think that people leave little breadcrumbs of who they are, and sometimes they do.
If you read my post carefully you might just find a clue as to whether im town or mafia.
I think this is what, the 12th or 13th post in the game, in RVS, which I think is where the joking in the second part comes from.
As for his responses, what the hell else is he supposed to say? First of all, whether or not he's delicious doesn't matter, it's gaming the mod, expecting delicious to equal town and disgusting to be the mafia. Its a possibility, but it's honest to god guesswork that is more like throwing a dart blindly rather than scumhunting. Second, I would expect everyone to answer that good will prevail, unless someone was jokingly rooting for evil. Its a question that is WIFOM in and of itself. Whether a person is town or mafia, they are going to choose Good when the question is asked in a serious situation, which if Naka is going to pretend that Draco's responses are serious, then I'm assuming his question was as well.
I read it even more carefully this time, and check out the proof that came up (above). He hid his alignment between words as well as stated it with a masterful code. It was hard to crack, but somehow, I did. We're too good at this, Shalako.
But, seriously, defend yourself. That post wasn't a very Town post.
Here's where things get shaky as all hell. First, more jokes about Draco's post and Draco in general.
Then he says the post isn't actually town. First, when did Naka start taking this joke seriously? It seems incredibly random to change from the jokey attitude he's had to this serious "You aren't acting town!" vibe. Remember this is still on page one. Draco has a total of one post in this game at this point, and it's enough for heavy suspicion from Naka already. I smell something fishy. It doesn't help that he's actually joking and being serious in the same post, making this clash in attitudes so apparent.
Second, notice how he never, ever mentions why Draco's post isn't townie. He never does after this and I'm going to announce this later on by posting
NAKA-ALERT
Every time he mentions this post but doesn't explain why it's bad.
Oh while i'm here we should say how many games we've played.
I've finished
29 Perfect Scum win (MVP was ME)
Ongoing.
28 Softball
30 Library
'Raxs Bastard Game.
This is important, because while Naka is tensing up for a scum-strike on Draco, Shalako, his buddy in crime, is still off in RVS-land, joking about. This is a post that makes me doubt that Shalako is scum, just a townie that got dragged into the wrong mess, but doesn't realize it.
-The Stand (Lynched, On-Going)
-Doha (Mod-Killed, On-Going)
-The Library (Alive, On-Going)
-Annorax's Bastard Mafia (Alive, On-Going)
-Battle of the Delicious (Alive, On-Going)
That's it, if I remember correctly.
So she has some experience. Let me ask you Naka: When have you ever successfully nailed a scum on page 1 from their first post and carried the lynch through when you are town? I expect an answer.
Another obvious joke post. My thoughts on Reya are a bit of confusion, because it's his first game. She's playing around with the joke as if in RVS and it looks perfectly fine, from an RVS standpoint. Problem is that NakaSha go on to murder RVS, so even though people are stuck in random, when people look back for information it looks more important than it actually is because of the timing. You know what I mean? I feel like that's confusing, but whatever. NakaSha killed random, I'm getting to that, and it's pretty terrible.
IMO, only scum want the death of random. First, a scum is most active at night, right? So, wouldn't it make sense for a scum to try and get to the night cycle as fast as possible? On day one, the RVS might last 10+ pages, so killing the RVS is a good way to get to night faster.
Also, it's a great way to cause confusion. When the RVS ends naturally, it's usually a mutual understanding between all the players. That's because RVS is really the period of time that players wait until all the players check in. RVS is a time killer until the gangs all there. What happens when you kill the random phase? People will make their first post of the game as a joke post and get chastised for it by the people who have moved on. You will constantly have questions of whether it's RVS or not, and people will undoubtedly find players scummy for the weakest of reasons. All of the confusion is enough for a scum player to feed on. If the town is running around like a chicken with it's head cut off, the scum are free to take control, and I fear that's what Naka tried to do, with his trust henchman Shalako, also known as the fearsome evil team of NakaSha.
Ok, so now Shalako can see that Naka is being realz about Draco and he decides to play along. There are posts that really make me think Shalako is confused town, and then there are these blatant /barn posts that make me decide he's just an obv. scumbuddy. It's honestly a toss-up.
The two answers and the line following it's where the real juice is.
NAKA-ALERT!
So, there is juice in Draco's answers, huh? Well, I bet they're ripe by now, you been talking about so long now, why do you squeeze those for us? I'm thirsty and want some of your juicy information you claim to have.
Oh that's right. You don't have any juice. You only claim to have juice so we'll listen to you. I don't like you juice man.
Joking aside, he still doesn't explain WHY draco isn't town, just that he IS NOT town. I wanna know why, and this guy says he's got answers, but damn, he's not sharing. I call BS.
Jokejokejoke. Reya's first game and it's a shame they killed the RVS, cause I think Reya would have had a lot of fun and a better introduction to the game.
Only if I included a line telling people to read closely.
Either way, his two answers are huge points against him. It's great that he replied to my two questions, though, because it means they fulfilled their purpose.
NAKA-ALERT!
Once again, why are his answers the points against him? How did they fufill their purpose. What did you secretly learn that I didn't? Cause I'm still calling BS, you just don't want to drop your guard or you'd look weak. Can't turn back now, can you scum?
2 You don't like that he answered the Obv Town answer.
3 something else I'm missing.
This is a good example of a false Dichotomy, kind of. Shalako presents options for an answer he's looking for. A dichotomy is a choice between one or the other really, usually in reference to something someone has done. A false dichotomy is where someone presents a choice between two things and really the answer isn't as simple as the presenter's choices. Scum use false dichotomies to trap townies, usually preparing an argument for either choice that proves the person scum. Now, that's not what Shalako did here, but it is not something to get into the habit of doing. Listing choices is a scum tactic and can put a person under fire, but Shalako also listed a third option to cover the grey area, making me think this is an innocent mistake. Still, try not to post in this fashion.
True dat. I think what happened to Reya in this game is that he tried to play along with a joke, got somewhat attacked for it, because essentially confused with the RVS alive/dead shenanigans and never really recovered. I think Reya is likely town that's having a helluva first game. I'll keep my mind open that she may be scum, but I'm leaning town as of this point.
Voted For Draco because of Naka's post even if it was a joke it seems suspicous.
Naka has, at this point, confused Reya. I can actually see it.
"Naka! Use CONFUSION! It's super effective! Reya is confused! Reya hurt itself in it's confusion!"
I think Reya's immidiate response to the game state was just to try and tag along with the others, to help regain footing. This post is a slip in my opinion, but I think the strangely fast pace of the game has had a strong effect on him. It might be worth looking into at a later point. Right now though I just read Reya as classic newb town.
Scum:
-Dracofaust (reasons explained earlier)
-Reya Cookiebringer (for barning me and bussing Scum early)
-RVS (reasons explained earlier)
Town:
-Shalako (have a Townie read so far)
Neutral:
-Others
Ask questions if you have any.
NAKA-ALERT!
Draco: Reasons NOT explained. Every post so far, you have said you have reasons and information that you learned from Draco's first post, but you have never said what it is.
You should be asking Naka this question. He's the one who says she's got the information. You are asking Reya this question, who was confused and intimidated at the time. I have a feeling, as a new player, that she's just /barning out of confusion. Regardless of Reya, this is a better question for both yourself and Naka.
3: I hadn't read the post about this being his first game when I made my list. I'll remove him for now.
4: Yes, we do.
1. Shalako asked if Naka actually has a scumread on Draco from one post. I ball BS once again, but Naka says she actually does have a scumread. Based on what though? Apparently she isn't saying, but she is saying that she's said it already.
2. Calls herself town in an indirect way, which is scummy in an indirect way. A townie shouldn't have to blatently call themselves town, they should let their actions speak for themselves.
3. Here she shows sense with the Reya issue. Nothing to complain about.
4. So, you agree that there aren't very many people who've checked in, maybe half, but you've already pegged scum? I highly doubt that.
The thing that seemed suspicous was that he was trying to use reverse psychology by hiding that message so we would think it was a joke and not take it seriously. THAT IS WHY HE IS SUSPICOUS. Or it might just be being awake for a a week strait.
I think this is a joke, that's what my gut tells me. Either that or Reya is just newb town having fun with the joke, but now she just doesn't quite get it anymore.
RESPONSES ARE IMPORTANT
2: Scum barn Town to look Town.
Oh playing the I'm town card.
I.
Got.
My.
Eye.
On.
You.
(Of course I always do as I can't really read you.)
hrm.
are you getting Noob vibes from him also?
Barn you barning me.[/QUOTE]
You need to keep a better eye on your buddy, you know, since your following so much, I figured you'd have done that a little better than you have.
I think the IGMEOY here is all show possibly, cause even though Shalako says he's watching Naka, all he really did was follow her blindly. Still really torn on Sha.
Do you
A Not like his response to Nakas post
or
B. Think he admitted he is scum in a hidden message.
Naka, ExLight V.2?
Now this is a false dichotomy that doesn't cover the gray area. He's addressing Reya with this limited answer question and it might be that neither one is the correct answer. It creates problem situations, and problems for the town are solutions for the scum. IE: This post I find scummy.
More like n00b vibes. ExLight was just really hard to read.
Other players: Play!
Still urging other players to play while still pushing hard for Draco's lynch. There seems like there's something wrong with that situation, doesn't there? Oh yeah, I covered that already, Naka's just reinforcing my point for me.
I think his response was really suspicous. Thats probably the main reason. And as for Noob vibes. It NEWB since im NEW to this.
Honestly, that's really the only thing running through my mind when it comes to Reya: he's a newb and is going to trip before he walks in this game. New players face a challenge in playing this game, and it's going to lead to mistakes. It's up to Reya to learn from mistakes, but it's also up to other players to understand his experience level and judge accordingly. I don't think anything Reya has done is outside of a new town players capabilities, and therefore don't think he's worth a lynch. I will be open for discussion pending the kill results of today's lynch and tomorrow's kill scene, but for now he's town.
What was suspicious about it, in your personal opinion?
WHAT?! You can't seriously be asking that question. You haven't even answered that question. It's like you are looking at a blank piece of paper, saying you can see something, then you challenge everyone else to see the same thing you see. If they can't you chastise them. It could be all a lie and you could just be trying to trap a townie. Which is what I think you are doing.
Show me what about Draco's first post is incriminating, specifically regarding his answers to you questions, and maybe I'll drop this point, MAYBE. Oh yeah, NAKA-ALERT!, because you are referencing the issue and still haven't answered it yourself.
We're past the RVS, and lurking is no reason to be voted against, at least not this early in the game.
How about you start off by answering my two questions?
I see this as a very aggressive way to greet a player into the game. Like "HEY YOU! STOP HAVING FUN! It's serious time around here, so why don't you get to work!". Naka's hostility comes out of nowhere, but I'm sure it comes from a scummy origin.
Good (Town) is delicious. Bad (Scum) isn't delicious. You just claimed Scum.
Unvote, Vote: Poggydude.
I think you just used your opinion to decide whether something is delicious and used that as reasoning for your vote. Oh wait, no, you totally did do that. Why is this good reasoning for your vote? Did you make this game and have inside information that tasteless characters are scum? Cause if so that's cheating, get out. If not, it's just incredibly scummy of you to say this.
We don't have RVS in games that myself or Shalako or in.
Read through the thread, reply to my answers, and post your thoughts on Draco, the tasteless claim, and claim. Note that tasteless/non-delicious drinks are Scum.
What? First, there is something about the first part that makes me think Naka thinks she and Shalako are better than everyone else, like they get to decide whether the RVS stays or goes. Like they think they are in charge, which is a scum mentality. Only the scum would be concerned with becoming a town leader, the town is more concerned with working together to overcome the hidden scum. Divided they fall together they conquer kinda thing.
Also, notice that in the second part, Naka says that non-delicious drinks are scum as if it's a fact. In fact, she says that they are scum. Plain and simple. This is gaming the mod heavily, and saying that this early in the game and in a basic, it's got a better chance to accidentally catch on and become a fact to the townies that don't know better. It's gaming the mod that could potentially ruin the town.
Wow, at this point in time, Poggy also has only one post, and already Naka has accused Poggy of being scum for claiming tasteless, a complete and utter mod-game offense, and is now accusing him for lurking, after ONE POST. Naka is reaching on any and all attacks he can find, and it's this level of aggressiveness that is typical in a scum.
so, i didn't say I was liquefied fecal matter, I just said I have no taste...seriously naka?
You seem to be acting awfully scummy. You ask everyone dumb questions and then try to say that I claimed? unvote quietfish
FOS:Nakamura
I see this as a reasonable analysis of the situation. Naka is making ridiculous claims and Poggy is in disbelief, understandably. The conservative voting is absolutely understandable and I don't know why it was ever an issue.
But you didn't vote him.
Thats not scummy at all.
Unvote Vote Poggy
How does having no taste = scum? That's what I want to know. You seem sure of the fact that Poggy is scum because he's tasteless, but you don't exactly show how that works. Tasteless implies that there isn't a good taste but there isn't a bad taste, and you in fact taste nothing at all. So, if good taste is town and bad taste is scum, wouldn't no taste be more like neutral?
Your logic is flawed here, but it all boils down to you making a guess at what the mod made the scum. You think he made all the scum poo-poo water, but you have no evidence to back that up. He could have made scum alcohol, alkaseltzer or Alkaline battery fluid, and I'm just on the A ideas. You honestly have no idea who the scum are, you are just a hungry dog looking for a bone wherever you might find one. Unless of course you know you are the scum and are just trying to pin any old townie.
Dumb questions? They sure seemed to supply me with good information.
Not only do you not vote me, but you FOS me, as well as act very defending in the post. Very, very Scummy. Thanks for the information.
NAKA-ALERT!
Ok, so your early game questions supposedly supplied you with good information, blah blah blah, I've heard this from you before. What's the freaking information!
Oh right, it doesn't exist, you're scum, moving on.
You attack Poggy for being conservative with his vote. How is it very very scummy? If anything a townie should be more inclined to keep their vote safe, mostly because if everyone were to throw their vote around, the scum would have an easier time killing people. Lets say the townies are throwing their votes left and right and rack up four town votes on one player for a silly reason. The three scum in the game just have to throw their votes lazily on the wagon to get a mislynch.
Town players gain an advantage from holding their votes because it forces the scum to work to complete their goal and it safeguards the town against accidental death. Besides, it could just be that Poggy finds you suspicious but not enough to be comfortable with your lynch. That IS what FoS means.
Attacking a player for how they vote is absurd, nit-picky and scummy as hell.
Have you had your current role (Vanilla, Cop, Goon, etc.) in a previous (one that's completed or that you've already been killed in) game? Don't say the actual role, just if you've had it before or not.
In a game where, assuming all bad tasting drinks are scum, Some One would have to creature safe claims for all scum categories, otherwise a day 1 mass claim would out all the scum, or force them to lie. Either way, it severely hinders the mafia team, so "safe claims" are there to prevent a massclaim from imbalancing the game.
This is solid analysis by TIK, furthering my opinion that he's town. He's making the assumption that the modgaming is correct, which I'm not really happy about, but he's still arguing that the scum would have protection from such a modgaming analysis, and he's right. The scum could easily be given a false claim of a good drink.
More than likely though, the scum aren't who we think they are, as in it's not going to be obvious that one drink is scum and one drink is town. However, Naka and Shalako seem to think they know exactly what drinks are going to be town and scum. Assuming you know the right answer won't help you pass the test guys.
Is tasteless delicious? No. Is tasteless an "or other" beverage? Yes.
I don't know about you, but after working very very hard on a hot day in my yard, a nice cold glass of water is just about as tasty as they come. Sure water is tasteless, but I bet I could find over a thousand people who say that water is tasty. Your argument is shortsighted and you are using it in a manipulative manner to push Poggy's lynch. That's why you are scum.
I don't plan to use it right now, just an idea for later.
Are you kidding? This isn't a tell on your alignment really, but just a warning that this claim you are proposing, whether it's in this game or a game thirty years from now, is pretty game-breaking IMO.
Excellent, the game has started. Since it seems to be relevant, this is my first game.
All I've seen so far this game is two experienced players making absurd allegations with little evidence and using this to push discussion along. Its been working, so far, but I hope we all realize that every single suspicion thus far is essentially worthless for the time being.
Draco's response was a little odd, I suppose, but without anything else to go off of, I'd put that to an attempt at humour equally likely from either town or mafia.
Reya was certainly over-eager to join the Draco wagon, but I'd put, again, to humour and being new then anything else. His first post:
reads intensely sarcastic to me.
Poggy's tasteless claim reads more like a joke to me...(haha, he's tasteless). Kind of an odd one, and one to keep in mind for later, but not very scummy on its own.
I agree that a soft-claim is not beneficial at this point.
This is the first post in the game by quitefish, and I'm already pretty convinced that he's town. His analysis regarding NakaSha is pretty spot on, as is his analysis of Reya and Draco. The thing that I like the most about quietfish is that he's looking at each post in perspecitve of the thread, which is a good sign that he's taking the time to think things through. It's a solid town tell IMO.
Inexperienced or not, each point has caught out players in their answers or responses. Players that could be Scum. They are not essentially worthless, quite the opposite, and for you to say that sounds very defending of the player Shalako and I voted for.
Claiming tasteless, as a joke or not, is equivalent to claiming Scum. Don't look it over or take it lightly.
Explain how it is not beneficial, Quietfish.
Tasteless = scum is what Naka just said. Man, she knows so much about this game for only being a player. I wonder if Some One just sent secret PM's to everyone but me explaining exactly who was scum and who was town in this game.
So let me get this straight, I have already outed myself as scum, alright...let's look at this logically, what beverage has no taste? Is this beverage healthy? I'm thinking that he made the mafia unhealthy drinks but I don't know. Also how does Fosing you instead of voting you make me scummy? I am trying to play conservatively but If it makes you happy I am perfectly fine with voting you by now. Also quietfish makes a good point where he says stating that your new is relevant. I am a new player at least on these forums.
So i stand by my beverage claim as it certainly does not make me mafia.
I kinda knew Poggy was water ever since he said Tasteless. It's kinda obv. in my opinion. Poggy being water doesn't make him scum or town for any reason, it just means he's water. That's flavor, it doesn't mean anything unless someone was told by the mod that it does.
Now, everyone is throwing a fit about Poggy flailing and saying that he claimed when he didn't need to, but in fact, he did. All the attacks against him were concerning his flavor, something he has no control over whatsoever. So, people were running around calling him scum over something out of his hands. How do you refute an argument that you are scum when the attack has nothing to do with you and your behavior? Poggy didn't decide what his role was, so he can't really defend why his role is water. It just is. He also can't defend why the mod made Water town, he just did (or so we assume). So when he comes under fire for it, the only thing he can do is tell people what he is to clear up any confusion. Then he gets chastised for it.
The FoS makes you Scummy because it's not a vote, yet you think I'm Scum (for what reason?). If you think somebody's Scum, you vote them, because the point of being Town is to get rid of the Scum (basically).
Quietfish's point is void. My news is relevant, as it has caught out two players so far. That seems fairly relevant (and beneficial to the Town) in my opinion.
You aren't delicious, therefore you aren't Town, and there aren't Neutral players in Basics. That makes you Scum.
Wow, so your entire case on Poggy is that he's not delicious. What about his behavior, any of that strike you as scummy, cause up to this point it's been all about his role, something that strikes zero confidance in me regarding his chances to be scum. Flavor specualtion is NOT useful, as if I really needed to say that again. In fact, it's pretty scummy, as if I needed to say THAT again.
Show me where it says delicious=mafia, I just said I'm some kind of water. I don't see water being auto scum ever. Water could be scum but just because I'm water doesn't make me scum. You have also not outed a damn person, Im innocent and you are a terribad scum-hunter.
Good question Poggy asks here.
@Nakamura and Shalako: Please, show me where, in this thread, does the mod confirm that Non-delicious = Mafia.
Either way, FoS or vote, it's very Scummy (because I caught you out and now you're feeling pressure and decided to vote me to "protect" yourself).
So, you attack Poggy for not voting you, then you attack him when he finally does? I guess Poggy is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't then. Oh, btw, you are bulldogging players left and right, and it's outing you as scum, scum.
Also, NAKA-ALERT!, mostly because of his first comment. It reminds me of how he always voted without ever providing that explaination on Draco in the beginning. He's stilly guilty as charged.
Wait, now you're a kind of water? You just said you were tasteless. Interesting.
And, I've outed you. Doesn't seem very "terribad" to me.
Yeah. You outed him. Can't you see that that's bad? You bulldogged a townie player into claiming early D1, we should be thanking our lucky stars it wasn't a powerrole you outed and we should also be lynching you right now for your scummy effort.
And I'm sure it's already been said, but water does indeed = tasteless. I dunno about = scum and all that, but that's your end of this situation, not mine.
Is water not tasteless? If you are arguing that water has taste at this point we are getting into semantics. I said I was tasteless because I thought water didn't have a taste.
I voted you because you twisted the entire setup to make me look guilty. You didn't out me at all you just twisted words. I explained this in my FoS.
Exactly. Poggy FoSed Naka, Naka called Poggy scum for not voting and being conservative. So, Poggy votes, and Naka calls him scum for worrying about appearances. So, in the beginning, Poggy wasn't worrying about his appearance and FoSing, even though Naka's town "appearance" is to vote, but when Poggy does finally decide to vote, Naka calls him scum for trying to fin in with the town.
I think from now on I'm just going to leave my explainations of Naka's posts be a short and simple "Naka's scummy again" instead of writing things. I've been writing this for hours now.
Isn't water tasteless? Thats how it tastes to me anyway. I dont think stuff that tastes bad = mafia and vice versa. Taste is also a thing that varies from person to person
nath'd
I feel better about Reya here. He shows signs of life and his own opinion again, reinforcing the town vibes I get from him.
And, the Scum aren't just bad tasting, they're the "non-delicious".
HOW DO YOU KNOW THESE THINGS?!?!?!
Seriously, you have been acting as if this whole "non-delicious=scum" crazy guessing theory is fact this entire game. Stop acting as if the Mod confirmed this information. It's dangerous information if the town starts think it's actually true, which thank heavens they haven't.
A. Town don't care how they look.
B. You say you are fine with voting him, then you don't
Nod
Explain.
*Glances at other posts*
And you've claimed Water.
Great.
I'm sure you had a reason for that.
You seem like Flailing Scum.
Examples? You say he's flailing, but that's not good enough. From this point on, I will post FLAIL?! every time someone accuses Poggy of flailing without showing how. Words are nothing without reasoning to back them up, and so far, I haven't found Poggy to be flailing whatsoever, only doing what he has to do to reason with a somewhat reckless town.
Yeah, Shalako and I commented on the flail-ness of his post.
Why are you being conservative with your vote? You can un-vote at any time. Town players aren't conservative with their votes.
That's fine, it was just a proposal. I'll try and come up with a better one later.
FLAIL!!!?!?!
I also think you need to stop thinking of a townies vote as a broadsword to attack and intimidate other players with. You should think of it more like a shield to defend you points and reinforce your ideas.
1) Ice isn't flailing (yet?).
2) I didn't say it was an innocent mistake. Check again.
Fiji? Still isn't delicious if it's tasteless.
FLAIL!!?11?/!/!??
Naka may not have called TIK's FoS an innocent mistake, but he's hold Poggy hostage as a scum partly for the same thing TIK did. Yet TIK didn't get any suspicion from Naka. Naka says the reason is because TIK isn't flailing, but what the hell does flailing have to do with using FoS instead of voting?
It's because now Naka is biased against Poggy and is just out for blood. She's scum who thinks that if she pushes hard enough on Poggy, she gets to lynch him. This kind of double standard is what makes me think Naka is scum, not just a bulldogging townie.
You asked me why you would claim Fiji. But, you claimed Fiji. Yet you say you would rather lie. But, you claimed Fiji. You are upset that you being water is a Scum tell. But, tasteless is not delicious, and not delicious is not Town.
Being water is not a scumtell because water being scum is not a fact. Deal with it.
You might claim fiji for that reason. Its tasteless so it looks like your not flailing which you look like anyway. Am I making any sense?
Also im only 2 days away for breaking the world record for being awake the longest. yeah
FLAILFLAILFLAILFLAILFLAIL
Please, somebody, show me how the hell Poggy is flailing. Everyone says he is, but nobody is brave enough to explain the hows and whys. I've given it a good hard look, and Poggy is just dealing with ridiculous and unwarranted suspicion as calmly as he can. The arguments against him are all based on faulty logic and all his posts are completely understandable in regards to this.
Also, saying and treating are two different things. Please learn the difference before you say I did something (although I did neither).
Ok, so what's the difference between Saying and Treating? You notice how Naka is using nitpicky arguments like this to shoot down valid arguments? I do.
This is literally only half of what I wanted to say. I might get around to the other half, I might not, but that's only because I've been working on this one post for the entirety of my afternoon/night. I've had a terrible 8 hour day at work and now 6 more hours of this one post, and I think I've earned some personal time now.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I hope someone actually reads that and comes out with a better idea of what going on, cause I'm beat. I really don't want that time to be useless.
Guess I shouldn't have made this whole post a drunk post...
@TACKY: Yes we have clashed before, it seems I do that with someone in every game (unintentionally, I think)
Well then, my arguments (which will come tomorrow) come with a preface. I wish not to clash. I thought we might have had history and I wanted to make sure to be as unbiased as possible and not take anything personally, if that was even a concern. Anyway, thanks for letting me know.
@TACKY: Duh, you totally pushed for his lynch in Duel Monsters.
@Az: and why are we not lynching ExLight today praytell?
I remember that now. One of my very earliest games. I made it to endgame and didn't help a single bit the entire time. I think I was the vig. Oops.
Also, what is the case on Ex again? Ex's behavior is fairly consistant with previous town play, so unless I'm missing something huge, I'm not seeing it very much, just typical random new player Ex.
Look how he subtly uses "we" and "our" as if he was already confirmed town. See Seppel’s post above.
Chorus: HE’S DOING IT AGAIN! HE’S DOING IT AGAIN!
He sure wants exlight in that town category.
Chorus: HE’S DOING IT AGAIN! HE’S DOING IT AGAIN!
To be continued after the intermission! Remember boys and gars, Az does not want exlight to be lynched!
Still think AL is town, but this case doesn't sway me one bit. First, it's based around buddying, which is not a good sign. I'm not a huge fan of Buddy arguments because sure, it has a chance to catch two scum at once, but the chances of correctly pegging one scum are low, let alone two. Scum have made it a point, at least nowadays, to tie themselves to townies just to WIFOM the town, so it's a fairly weak argument, especially when both players are still alive and unconfirmed in a large game.
Also, his argument that Az is saying 'we' and 'our' is missing the point. People are going to speak in a town perspective, whether they are town or scum: it's a nulltell. Town are going to speak from the town perspective because they are town and that's just natural for them. Scum are going to speak from the town perspective because they want to appear town. It's not as if Azreal is blatentely saying in each post "I AM TOWN".
Overall, I think the case is a house of cards, but it reassures my standing on AL. He's scumhunting and that's a very good sign.
I'm going to post more tomorrow because I want to give this game the proper amount of time, but I'm strapped right now and wanted to post quick thoughts. Case on Naka will wait until tomorrow.
First, iBug is most def town. He's playing like he normally does as town and he's using a lot of solid logic in all of his posts so far.
Second, I didn't mean to come off as an overlord making hostile demands from the town, but I would be grateful to have everyone's clear opinion on Poggydude. Along with town/scum lists to help me catch up with this game. I think it's a proper time for mass lists. Sorry for being a bit demanding and thuggish earlier.
Third, the argument against Reya is ridiculous. A highlight to the case tomorrow is that Naka is calling Reya scum for tagging along on the joke in the beginning. Naka's accusing Reya of scummy buddying, but there are two problems with this.
1. It's utterly hypocritical. Naka and Shalako have been best bud's since page 1 and it's perfectly fine, but once Reya tries to join the party, she must be scum. If anything, Naka and Shalako are scum and Reya is a townie that fell into a trap. Although, at this point Shalako is still just newb town that made the wrong friend in Naka, but we'll see what the reread brings up.
2. Naka is attacking Reya for buddying, saying that it's scummy. Reya was buddying with Naka and Shalako, who is also on her attack. The buddying theory is that two or more, usually just two, scum will buddy with each other. So, if Reya is scum for buddying with Naka and Shalako, doesn't that mean that one, or both, are scum? Simple logic on that one.
Finally, like I said, you can expect a much longer post tomorrow that will provide all the tasty analysis this game can feed me. I'm really digging this game for some reason and I really want to give it the proper attention it deserves, which is why I'm waiting.
Also, while I'm thinking about it, personally, I think my role tastes absolutely disgusting. I also happen to think that nasty vodka is delicious. The attacks on Poggydude have stemmed from such issues. Him saying his flavor is tasteless drew several attacks from NakaSha, but really, all they are doing is guessing at the flavor of the game. It's called Gaming the Mod, and it involves guessing at what you think the mod would do. NakaSha is guessing that the scum will be disgusting, flavorless drinks and are attacking Poggy by using this guess.
The problem with guesses is that they aren't accurate whatsoever. Do you personally know SomeOne? Can you tell me exactly what his taste in drinks is? I can't. And even if I could, maybe he knew someone would guess that and switched it to where the good drinks are scum.
See, it gets confusing, but one thing is sure. Calling someone scum based on what kind of drink they are is nothing but a guessing game and usually results in a townie dying as a result of a bad guess. Gaming the mod can sometimes be a useful tool, but normally only in the late game, not on Day 1.
Someone also brought up something about expecting Nasty Vodka to be a scum role. I know that prolly makes perfect sense for you, but personally, I'd make Nasty Vodka my town doc if it were my game. Who knows about SomeOne? Maybe he really really loves his liquor, or maybe not. At this point in time, such speculation isn't really helpful to the town, and in fact creates situations where townie might be framed and attacked for something they have no control over. This is what's happening to Poggydude, among other things, and it's typically a scum tactic by the attackers. Scum like to take the quickest and easiest way to a win, and gaming the mod is a good way to look like you are doing a lot of analysis without actually doing any research in the thread. NakaSha is gaming the mod hard on Poggy, and they are calling him scum for "flailing" when all he's doing is telling them how asinine their attack is. I reacted the same way to an early newb game of mine and I know exactly what he's going through. I have an incredibly strong town read on Pog, but I'll leave more for tomorrow.
I love you.
Tacky.
PS: I love you the most SO. I love you because you made this sweet game. I also love you because you always post VC's just the way I like them. Which is soon, please!
First off, Cyan and Cantrip are pretty damn town now. Only true town reactions to the whole wagon.
I really thought long and hard about how to play this. Whether to claim beginning day 1 or just try to win covertly and be out of your hair. Anyway, without further adeu:
Name: Rar'k Ch'agth Profession: Servant of the Blood Demon, Farzal Alignment: Neutral Starting Gold: 300 Abilities: None Items: None Win Condition: Claim 6 souls for my master. Once I win, I'm removed from the game. Claiming a soul ==
- Hammering a player
- Killing a player
- Having a kill contract that I put out completed
In, what I can imagine as a moment of genius, Seppel gave me no items or abilities with which to achieve my goal.
What's great was that as far as the scum was concerned, I was just another town. The one that truly came out the worst in this wagon, IMHO, were Nom and Seppel.
Let the games begin.
I like this claim and don't support atlseal's lynch. From my standpoint, he's an alt-wincon townie with possible vig shots at some point. Atlseal's mood here indicates a lot of willingness to work with the town and his own goal is easily workable with the town. Let him hammer lynches, and he can use FoS or something to indicate when he would be voting, just to be sure. Hammer stealing would be a lynchable offense and we would have a say in any possible vig shots. I think this is best for both parties. Let me explain.
This is a good move for Atl mostly because working with a large group is better than working on your own to accomplish his win condition. If he were to attempt to be the hammer on all wagons without revealing his situation, it would be a very suspicious act and could lead to his own death. Teamworking with the town gives his a sort of protection.
Obviously, the town would have killing potential, which could be incredibly valuable later in the game. That is though, if Atl is willing to actually work with the town. I still think he might lying, but that's more of a kneejerk reaction from seeing an SK-like role.
Conversely, I don't like Red_O's recent vote and reactions to the claim. Although, I think I remember always getting on Red_O's case, might just be bad habit. Gotta check though.
@Red_O: Do I have a history with you? I can't remember lol. I guess that should be a good indicator that the answer is 'no' but I still await an answer.
I thought I had more to say, but I think I got sidetracked. Thank a lot, Mary...
Poggydude is the towniest townie in the history of the whole damned town.
Nakamura is either the most confused and backward townie I've ever seen, or he's scum. And seeing as how he says he's experienced at least a good bit of mafia, I'm leaning that he's scum.
Essentially the same for Shalako, only on a smaller scale. Shalako has been riding along with Shalako, but their not really tied to each other. Right now, I'm torn between a Shalako that's a shortsighted and bloodthirsty town or just scum as well.
Everyone is gaming the mod. Stop it. It's harmful to the town and is also WIFOM.
Naka and Shalako are handing out false dichotomies left and right. Stop it. It's terribly scummy. You also both killed RVS, which is also a scumtell, but only when you consider how it was killed. You forced it's end with pressure on a bad joke on a player who is infamous for lurking and bad reactions. That's scummy too.
Everyone who has limited Mafia experience needs to do their first "reread" right now. Go back and read the whole thread, specifically the End of the RVS where dracofaust "outed" himself as scum and also Poggy's flailing.
I want every players opinion on Poggy, specifically whether or not you think he's flailing and why. I want specific examples and quotes to support your opinion.
I am not a fan of the softclaim whatsoever. People think that it can help the town more than the scum, but the truth is that everyone stays on the same level. The softclaim will never be more beneficial for the town or scum. That's why some scum in other games have been the ones to propose the softclaim in the first place, making them appear more townish and open the possibility to attack an innocent after a mistake.
I have experience with this. My only game as scum was Goo Mafia and early on day one, one of our other scum players proposed a softclaim and tried to pull this same trick.
Finally, Vote Nakamura. Expect a case soon, prolly tomorrow.
Questions? Comments? Concerns? Quote me and ask away.
About time you learned how to read me.
But, question: Why is Ambo obv town to you?
Partly gutfeel, with the roleplaying. He just seems to having a lot of creative fun in this game, something a scum wouldn't be focusing on this early in. Also, the RP is a good way to draw attention to yourself. It's something both town and scum can do, but it's not usually something a scum would want to do. Like I said though, a scum player can successfully draw all the attention to himself and successfully bluff the town into trusting him, but that player would have considerable experience in mafia in my opinion. I don't recall AL playing mafia very much before, but I might be mistaken.
Also, it's partly due to his bit of argument with Atlseal. He was fairly solid in his Q&A session, and I thought the reasoning in his vote for Atlseal was well thought, specifically that Atlseal was playing a more defensive stance with manders, rather than a grounded one.
And after thinking about it, it fits with the idea that Atl was just trying to get a rise out of Manders. More reading to do though.
Hello! My name is Tacky, but you can call me Tacky. I haven't read this thread at all, due to a busy weekend. You should get used to me having a busy weekend a lot. I will get prodded, but this doesn't mean I just don't care, it means I'm traveling the country attending PTQ's and large magic tournaments and the like. Expect posts out of me frequently during the week, rarely during the weekend.
That being said, I'm going to go and catch up with this crazy drink-filled thread and attempt to actually play this game.
Manders is town IMO. I've lynched her as town before, a couple times actually (SORRY!), and she's reading the same way she did then. She's naturally agressive in the early stages of the game and tends to focus all her rage on 1-2 people. Her scum games are a much more soft, lurky, flexible type of play.
Exlight is gut town as well IMO. I've never played with Ex, but I've replaced in for them. Exlight is a very new player, one prone to making a few slips. I think those slips come from Ex not taking the game as seriously as they should have in crucial points in the game. IIRC, it was Angel Mafia I replaced Ex in, and I think I was lynched there, largely due to the suspicion on Ex at the time. Not sure about the lynch or not, but I know I was under pressure for a while. I'm willing to listen to arguments against Ex, but they will be taken with plenty of salt.
Seppel is a power whore. I'm unsure of his alignment, as usual, but I think Seppel's play so far boils down to an urge of his to be in control. I would expect a plea for gold from both town and scum Seppel. He's on my longish list of rereads.
Lastly, Atlseal is another on my list of rereads, but he seems like a strong scum candidate. His back and forth with Manders seems snarky to me, and it's pushing Manders to the limit. I see this as a scum tactic, an attempt at trying to discredit Manders and all she's done so far. Manders IMO is an easily frustrated player as well, making this tactic look even worse for Atlseal. Need to look closer at the ATL-MH back and forth, but that's where I'm leaning.
Kinda more suspicious of Manders/Seppel for the quick jump on Gigas. Seppel more really, as he simply disappeared after the quick vote. Gigas's responses aren't great, but gutfeel says his intentions are town. Manders stuck in the conversation and feels pretty town, but that initial attack pinged my scumdar a bit.
Those are the only reads I have so far. Need to dig through the thread and see what I missed.
Yeah, Poggy is town. His flailing in the beginning didn't really appear as flailing to me, just town dealing with an asinine situation. He was facing a bulldoging Naka with some very poor points based on flavor. Really, the only responses he could have made were the ones he made, and eventually it becomes a tiresome and frustrating ordeal. His responses became flailish towards the end, but from my experience, townies flail just as much, if not more, than scum. Also, he's taken the cop issue to a whole new level, something that screams townie when I'm reading it coming from a newer player. It shows a true investment into the game and it shows strong signs of scumhunting. Even though there likely is no CC, it's still very important to be looking for one, as that will out a scum somewhere. Poggy taking this issue too seriously is a town tell IMO.
As for his fight with Naka, that helped to clear him before, but now that Naka is mostly-confirmed town, not so much. However, the fact that Poggy kept up his play instead of disappear AND the fact that a few other players did disappear during their fight, makes me believe that the Naka-Poggy brawl was a town brawl. That, plus the reasons listed above, give me a town read on the PogMan.
As for people with scum-views on me, that's fine. If they think I'm scum, they will present their opinions and we'll take it from there. I haven't seen any of that though, and I've only seen a few people mention that they are keeping their eye on me because I'm experienced and might be pulling a trick or something. I'm not really worried about that stuff, and it actually gives me better town reads on those people, because I expect them to keep an eye on me just as much as they keep an eye on everyone else. A good townie will be watching everyone.
Back to the point though, if there comes a time when everyone suspects me then we'll cross that bridge when it comes, but until that time, I'm going to continue to scumhunt instead of dwell on possible suspicion.
Actually, and I think Shalako covered this, but this is a common scum tactic. That's not to say that Naka is scum, just that she could be scum trying to out a PR.
Let me take this time to mention that we should drop the cop issue. The only thing I want to hear on the issue anymore is the CC's/no CC's from players who haven't yet. I don't care for the speculation that there isn't a cop at all and I don't care for the "that's not how you play cop" arguments. The fact is that Naka claimed cop and hasn't been CCed. There are two things you never lynch in Mafia: UnCCed Doc and UnCCed Cop. If Naka is lying, we'll deal with it later, but for now, she's not the lynch for the day and we should drop it to continue the hunt.
So wait, your top two on your scumlist were Naka, who was heavily attacking Poggy all game, and then Poggy? That doesn't make sense. You think they are both scum, attacking each other this early in the game? I need you to validate your reasoning for me.
Exlight is screaming scum to me, and I think this post is a good sign that he's just picking at weak targets. The two top players on his scumlist have not only opposed each other nearly the entire game, but they have been the largest targets the entire game too. His logic is flawed and I think he's scum.
Vote Exlight
I want a response to this before I go into more detail.
I loled
You can't have a hangover if you are drunk 24/7.
Why and how? Making generalized statements that you expect me to take for granted and believe isn't going to work here kiddo.
I don't think this is correct at all, but I do think that QF is town. This post required effort, more effort than most scum will apply in a basic. I like this post if only for it's length.
It's just not solid because 1. it pushes for a scum-Naka, which isn't likely 2. assumes a connection between two players and is primarily based around that and 3. applies a Meta on basics that is faulty.
The list of basics that have and do not have cops isn't going to help any because they are all by different people. Each mod can design a game however they want, therefore a proper meta would focus more on a specific Mod's games. So if someone told me that SomeOne has ran 10 basic games and out of those 10, 9 didn't have a cop, I'd be more willing to believe the argument. However, I don't know that Someone has hosted more than this game, so the sample of information available to us becomes incredibly small, which means that we are more likely to make a mistake rather than apply the meta in a proper way. Know what I mean?
Anyway, Quietfish is town.
Darn. Well, looking forward to hearing from your replacement.
OMGOMGOMGOMGOMG
*crosses fingers*
I love you Kpaca.
Wait wait wait. If you don't like the stalling, why don't you scumhunt?
Also, aren't you already voting for poggy and calling him scum without rhyme or reason? So why now are you saying that the Poggy situation is a "distraction" and going back to the Naka issue? Shouldn't Poggy be your main focus, since, you know, you've been calling him scum for pages and are currently voting him? And I thought you cleared Naka. I agree that we should still be suspicious, but I want to hear your answer of why. This post is almost completly contradicting your recent activity in the thread.
This.
Just skimmed the thread, more tomorrow, but here's some quick thoughts.
Don't like Naka's responses, but UnCC'ed Cop claim is way more than enough for an Unvote. The doc will protect Naka tonight, and anyone who is the doc should not claim at all today, no matter the pressure. In fact, I would prefer less claims today. One is enough, lets not out the whole town day 1.
However, I do have a strong list of suspect, here's a list with more explaination tomorrow.
Scumlist:
1. Exlight: his posts and voting seem like he's really trying to make up for lost time and take advantage of a possible mislynch. This isn't the random townie Ex I'm used to seeing, this Ex has fangs IMO.
2. Draco: I have issue's with Naka's posts, but one thing Naka did get me onto was Draco again, or more importantly, the lack of Draco. Sure, her attack on him was fairly weak in the beginning, but he's disappeared since. This actually fits his scum meta I think, as well as confirm Naka and Poggy as town. Draco disappeared after their fight and has showed up sparingly ever since. Scum usually disappear during town fights, to talk advantage of town confusion. Seeing as how I've got a town read on both Poggy and Naka as of now, this might be exactly what's happening.'
3. Naka: Yeah, I know I've been saying she's cleared town, but not everyone has checked in on the claim I don't think. Haven't heard from Quietfish or Heart for a while. I encourage you, if you are the real cop and know that Naka is lying for a fact, please counter claim. If someone checks in and casts a CC, I'll be a bit more serious about the end of this scumlist, but seeing as CC's rarely happen, I'm just waiting to see if a miracle happens. At the point when everyone checks in, she's off this list, essentially.
More tomorrow.
So, here's the first wall post in the game, showing just about everything I would have said at the time, but instead I'm saying it now. Drunkenly. That's right.
Just pinged my radar that the joking "thirst-quenching" done by TIK here might be a little smidgen of a clue as to his role, like a secret one, and this is actually incredibly serious, unlike the fake joke hidden code that Naka found in Draco. Getting to that soon...
Anyway, it's nothing at all really, just pure specualtion. I like to think that people leave little breadcrumbs of who they are, and sometimes they do.
I personally think myself disgusting, although I know some people who prefer me.
Also, good will prevail. Obv.
Really, I only quoted this post as a reminder of what caused Draco's response, the key to this bit of shenanigans.
I think this is what, the 12th or 13th post in the game, in RVS, which I think is where the joking in the second part comes from.
As for his responses, what the hell else is he supposed to say? First of all, whether or not he's delicious doesn't matter, it's gaming the mod, expecting delicious to equal town and disgusting to be the mafia. Its a possibility, but it's honest to god guesswork that is more like throwing a dart blindly rather than scumhunting. Second, I would expect everyone to answer that good will prevail, unless someone was jokingly rooting for evil. Its a question that is WIFOM in and of itself. Whether a person is town or mafia, they are going to choose Good when the question is asked in a serious situation, which if Naka is going to pretend that Draco's responses are serious, then I'm assuming his question was as well.
Clearly a joking post.
Clearly a joking post.
Clearly, another joking post.
Here's where things get shaky as all hell. First, more jokes about Draco's post and Draco in general.
Then he says the post isn't actually town. First, when did Naka start taking this joke seriously? It seems incredibly random to change from the jokey attitude he's had to this serious "You aren't acting town!" vibe. Remember this is still on page one. Draco has a total of one post in this game at this point, and it's enough for heavy suspicion from Naka already. I smell something fishy. It doesn't help that he's actually joking and being serious in the same post, making this clash in attitudes so apparent.
Second, notice how he never, ever mentions why Draco's post isn't townie. He never does after this and I'm going to announce this later on by posting
NAKA-ALERT
Every time he mentions this post but doesn't explain why it's bad.
This is important, because while Naka is tensing up for a scum-strike on Draco, Shalako, his buddy in crime, is still off in RVS-land, joking about. This is a post that makes me doubt that Shalako is scum, just a townie that got dragged into the wrong mess, but doesn't realize it.
So she has some experience. Let me ask you Naka: When have you ever successfully nailed a scum on page 1 from their first post and carried the lynch through when you are town? I expect an answer.
Another obvious joke post. My thoughts on Reya are a bit of confusion, because it's his first game. She's playing around with the joke as if in RVS and it looks perfectly fine, from an RVS standpoint. Problem is that NakaSha go on to murder RVS, so even though people are stuck in random, when people look back for information it looks more important than it actually is because of the timing. You know what I mean? I feel like that's confusing, but whatever. NakaSha killed random, I'm getting to that, and it's pretty terrible.
Why? Why would you kill the random stage?
IMO, only scum want the death of random. First, a scum is most active at night, right? So, wouldn't it make sense for a scum to try and get to the night cycle as fast as possible? On day one, the RVS might last 10+ pages, so killing the RVS is a good way to get to night faster.
Also, it's a great way to cause confusion. When the RVS ends naturally, it's usually a mutual understanding between all the players. That's because RVS is really the period of time that players wait until all the players check in. RVS is a time killer until the gangs all there. What happens when you kill the random phase? People will make their first post of the game as a joke post and get chastised for it by the people who have moved on. You will constantly have questions of whether it's RVS or not, and people will undoubtedly find players scummy for the weakest of reasons. All of the confusion is enough for a scum player to feed on. If the town is running around like a chicken with it's head cut off, the scum are free to take control, and I fear that's what Naka tried to do, with his trust henchman Shalako, also known as the fearsome evil team of NakaSha.
Ok, so now Shalako can see that Naka is being realz about Draco and he decides to play along. There are posts that really make me think Shalako is confused town, and then there are these blatant /barn posts that make me decide he's just an obv. scumbuddy. It's honestly a toss-up.
Pretty obv. joke post, making me think Reya is just a new townie that's enjoying RVS.
NAKA-ALERT!
So, there is juice in Draco's answers, huh? Well, I bet they're ripe by now, you been talking about so long now, why do you squeeze those for us? I'm thirsty and want some of your juicy information you claim to have.
Oh that's right. You don't have any juice. You only claim to have juice so we'll listen to you. I don't like you juice man.
Joking aside, he still doesn't explain WHY draco isn't town, just that he IS NOT town. I wanna know why, and this guy says he's got answers, but damn, he's not sharing. I call BS.
Jokejokejoke. Reya's first game and it's a shame they killed the RVS, cause I think Reya would have had a lot of fun and a better introduction to the game.
NAKA-ALERT!
Once again, why are his answers the points against him? How did they fufill their purpose. What did you secretly learn that I didn't? Cause I'm still calling BS, you just don't want to drop your guard or you'd look weak. Can't turn back now, can you scum?
This is a good example of a false Dichotomy, kind of. Shalako presents options for an answer he's looking for. A dichotomy is a choice between one or the other really, usually in reference to something someone has done. A false dichotomy is where someone presents a choice between two things and really the answer isn't as simple as the presenter's choices. Scum use false dichotomies to trap townies, usually preparing an argument for either choice that proves the person scum. Now, that's not what Shalako did here, but it is not something to get into the habit of doing. Listing choices is a scum tactic and can put a person under fire, but Shalako also listed a third option to cover the grey area, making me think this is an innocent mistake. Still, try not to post in this fashion.
True dat. I think what happened to Reya in this game is that he tried to play along with a joke, got somewhat attacked for it, because essentially confused with the RVS alive/dead shenanigans and never really recovered. I think Reya is likely town that's having a helluva first game. I'll keep my mind open that she may be scum, but I'm leaning town as of this point.
Naka has, at this point, confused Reya. I can actually see it.
"Naka! Use CONFUSION! It's super effective! Reya is confused! Reya hurt itself in it's confusion!"
I think Reya's immidiate response to the game state was just to try and tag along with the others, to help regain footing. This post is a slip in my opinion, but I think the strangely fast pace of the game has had a strong effect on him. It might be worth looking into at a later point. Right now though I just read Reya as classic newb town.
NAKA-ALERT!
Draco: Reasons NOT explained. Every post so far, you have said you have reasons and information that you learned from Draco's first post, but you have never said what it is.
You should be asking Naka this question. He's the one who says she's got the information. You are asking Reya this question, who was confused and intimidated at the time. I have a feeling, as a new player, that she's just /barning out of confusion. Regardless of Reya, this is a better question for both yourself and Naka.
1. Shalako asked if Naka actually has a scumread on Draco from one post. I ball BS once again, but Naka says she actually does have a scumread. Based on what though? Apparently she isn't saying, but she is saying that she's said it already.
2. Calls herself town in an indirect way, which is scummy in an indirect way. A townie shouldn't have to blatently call themselves town, they should let their actions speak for themselves.
3. Here she shows sense with the Reya issue. Nothing to complain about.
4. So, you agree that there aren't very many people who've checked in, maybe half, but you've already pegged scum? I highly doubt that.
I think this is a joke, that's what my gut tells me. Either that or Reya is just newb town having fun with the joke, but now she just doesn't quite get it anymore.
Oh playing the I'm town card.
I.
Got.
My.
Eye.
On.
You.
(Of course I always do as I can't really read you.)
hrm.
are you getting Noob vibes from him also?
Barn you barning me.[/QUOTE]
You need to keep a better eye on your buddy, you know, since your following so much, I figured you'd have done that a little better than you have.
I think the IGMEOY here is all show possibly, cause even though Shalako says he's watching Naka, all he really did was follow her blindly. Still really torn on Sha.
Now this is a false dichotomy that doesn't cover the gray area. He's addressing Reya with this limited answer question and it might be that neither one is the correct answer. It creates problem situations, and problems for the town are solutions for the scum. IE: This post I find scummy.
Still urging other players to play while still pushing hard for Draco's lynch. There seems like there's something wrong with that situation, doesn't there? Oh yeah, I covered that already, Naka's just reinforcing my point for me.
Honestly, that's really the only thing running through my mind when it comes to Reya: he's a newb and is going to trip before he walks in this game. New players face a challenge in playing this game, and it's going to lead to mistakes. It's up to Reya to learn from mistakes, but it's also up to other players to understand his experience level and judge accordingly. I don't think anything Reya has done is outside of a new town players capabilities, and therefore don't think he's worth a lynch. I will be open for discussion pending the kill results of today's lynch and tomorrow's kill scene, but for now he's town.
Thank god you are in this game. Super town feeling on iBug btw.
WHAT?! You can't seriously be asking that question. You haven't even answered that question. It's like you are looking at a blank piece of paper, saying you can see something, then you challenge everyone else to see the same thing you see. If they can't you chastise them. It could be all a lie and you could just be trying to trap a townie. Which is what I think you are doing.
Show me what about Draco's first post is incriminating, specifically regarding his answers to you questions, and maybe I'll drop this point, MAYBE. Oh yeah, NAKA-ALERT!, because you are referencing the issue and still haven't answered it yourself.
I see this as a very aggressive way to greet a player into the game. Like "HEY YOU! STOP HAVING FUN! It's serious time around here, so why don't you get to work!". Naka's hostility comes out of nowhere, but I'm sure it comes from a scummy origin.
This is a perfectly acceptable post and I see nothing wrong with it.
I think you just used your opinion to decide whether something is delicious and used that as reasoning for your vote. Oh wait, no, you totally did do that. Why is this good reasoning for your vote? Did you make this game and have inside information that tasteless characters are scum? Cause if so that's cheating, get out. If not, it's just incredibly scummy of you to say this.
Another friendly welcoming by the Naka party, still super early in this game.
What? First, there is something about the first part that makes me think Naka thinks she and Shalako are better than everyone else, like they get to decide whether the RVS stays or goes. Like they think they are in charge, which is a scum mentality. Only the scum would be concerned with becoming a town leader, the town is more concerned with working together to overcome the hidden scum. Divided they fall together they conquer kinda thing.
Also, notice that in the second part, Naka says that non-delicious drinks are scum as if it's a fact. In fact, she says that they are scum. Plain and simple. This is gaming the mod heavily, and saying that this early in the game and in a basic, it's got a better chance to accidentally catch on and become a fact to the townies that don't know better. It's gaming the mod that could potentially ruin the town.
/barn the second part. This place is a mess.
Wow, at this point in time, Poggy also has only one post, and already Naka has accused Poggy of being scum for claiming tasteless, a complete and utter mod-game offense, and is now accusing him for lurking, after ONE POST. Naka is reaching on any and all attacks he can find, and it's this level of aggressiveness that is typical in a scum.
I see this as a reasonable analysis of the situation. Naka is making ridiculous claims and Poggy is in disbelief, understandably. The conservative voting is absolutely understandable and I don't know why it was ever an issue.
How does having no taste = scum? That's what I want to know. You seem sure of the fact that Poggy is scum because he's tasteless, but you don't exactly show how that works. Tasteless implies that there isn't a good taste but there isn't a bad taste, and you in fact taste nothing at all. So, if good taste is town and bad taste is scum, wouldn't no taste be more like neutral?
Your logic is flawed here, but it all boils down to you making a guess at what the mod made the scum. You think he made all the scum poo-poo water, but you have no evidence to back that up. He could have made scum alcohol, alkaseltzer or Alkaline battery fluid, and I'm just on the A ideas. You honestly have no idea who the scum are, you are just a hungry dog looking for a bone wherever you might find one. Unless of course you know you are the scum and are just trying to pin any old townie.
NAKA-ALERT!
Ok, so your early game questions supposedly supplied you with good information, blah blah blah, I've heard this from you before. What's the freaking information!
Oh right, it doesn't exist, you're scum, moving on.
You attack Poggy for being conservative with his vote. How is it very very scummy? If anything a townie should be more inclined to keep their vote safe, mostly because if everyone were to throw their vote around, the scum would have an easier time killing people. Lets say the townies are throwing their votes left and right and rack up four town votes on one player for a silly reason. The three scum in the game just have to throw their votes lazily on the wagon to get a mislynch.
Town players gain an advantage from holding their votes because it forces the scum to work to complete their goal and it safeguards the town against accidental death. Besides, it could just be that Poggy finds you suspicious but not enough to be comfortable with your lynch. That IS what FoS means.
Attacking a player for how they vote is absurd, nit-picky and scummy as hell.
No.
This is solid analysis by TIK, furthering my opinion that he's town. He's making the assumption that the modgaming is correct, which I'm not really happy about, but he's still arguing that the scum would have protection from such a modgaming analysis, and he's right. The scum could easily be given a false claim of a good drink.
More than likely though, the scum aren't who we think they are, as in it's not going to be obvious that one drink is scum and one drink is town. However, Naka and Shalako seem to think they know exactly what drinks are going to be town and scum. Assuming you know the right answer won't help you pass the test guys.
I don't know about you, but after working very very hard on a hot day in my yard, a nice cold glass of water is just about as tasty as they come. Sure water is tasteless, but I bet I could find over a thousand people who say that water is tasty. Your argument is shortsighted and you are using it in a manipulative manner to push Poggy's lynch. That's why you are scum.
Yeah, TIK's town.
Another Dichotomy with a cop-out option. Don't like it.
Are you kidding? This isn't a tell on your alignment really, but just a warning that this claim you are proposing, whether it's in this game or a game thirty years from now, is pretty game-breaking IMO.
You keep saying that word. I do not think that word means what you think that word means.
This is the first post in the game by quitefish, and I'm already pretty convinced that he's town. His analysis regarding NakaSha is pretty spot on, as is his analysis of Reya and Draco. The thing that I like the most about quietfish is that he's looking at each post in perspecitve of the thread, which is a good sign that he's taking the time to think things through. It's a solid town tell IMO.
TIK continues to be as town as town can be.
Tasteless = scum is what Naka just said. Man, she knows so much about this game for only being a player. I wonder if Some One just sent secret PM's to everyone but me explaining exactly who was scum and who was town in this game.
No, this is just shortsighted scum talk.
I kinda knew Poggy was water ever since he said Tasteless. It's kinda obv. in my opinion. Poggy being water doesn't make him scum or town for any reason, it just means he's water. That's flavor, it doesn't mean anything unless someone was told by the mod that it does.
Now, everyone is throwing a fit about Poggy flailing and saying that he claimed when he didn't need to, but in fact, he did. All the attacks against him were concerning his flavor, something he has no control over whatsoever. So, people were running around calling him scum over something out of his hands. How do you refute an argument that you are scum when the attack has nothing to do with you and your behavior? Poggy didn't decide what his role was, so he can't really defend why his role is water. It just is. He also can't defend why the mod made Water town, he just did (or so we assume). So when he comes under fire for it, the only thing he can do is tell people what he is to clear up any confusion. Then he gets chastised for it.
First, the little flippant "Well why don't you do it then?" comment is a nasty little snipe at a fairly town player.
Also, the soft-claim is usually a useless gesture. It's only going to be forgotten later on and is rarely useful in games that I've been in.
Didn't do anything in 30, huh? Toldya.
Wow, so your entire case on Poggy is that he's not delicious. What about his behavior, any of that strike you as scummy, cause up to this point it's been all about his role, something that strikes zero confidance in me regarding his chances to be scum. Flavor specualtion is NOT useful, as if I really needed to say that again. In fact, it's pretty scummy, as if I needed to say THAT again.
Good question Poggy asks here.
@Nakamura and Shalako: Please, show me where, in this thread, does the mod confirm that Non-delicious = Mafia.
...
I didn't think so.
So, you attack Poggy for not voting you, then you attack him when he finally does? I guess Poggy is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't then. Oh, btw, you are bulldogging players left and right, and it's outing you as scum, scum.
Also, NAKA-ALERT!, mostly because of his first comment. It reminds me of how he always voted without ever providing that explaination on Draco in the beginning. He's stilly guilty as charged.
Yeah. You outed him. Can't you see that that's bad? You bulldogged a townie player into claiming early D1, we should be thanking our lucky stars it wasn't a powerrole you outed and we should also be lynching you right now for your scummy effort.
And I'm sure it's already been said, but water does indeed = tasteless. I dunno about = scum and all that, but that's your end of this situation, not mine.
Exactly. Poggy FoSed Naka, Naka called Poggy scum for not voting and being conservative. So, Poggy votes, and Naka calls him scum for worrying about appearances. So, in the beginning, Poggy wasn't worrying about his appearance and FoSing, even though Naka's town "appearance" is to vote, but when Poggy does finally decide to vote, Naka calls him scum for trying to fin in with the town.
I think from now on I'm just going to leave my explainations of Naka's posts be a short and simple "Naka's scummy again" instead of writing things. I've been writing this for hours now.
I feel better about Reya here. He shows signs of life and his own opinion again, reinforcing the town vibes I get from him.
Nakamura, forcing issues down the town's throats since the beginning of this game.
Seriously, just because you say something over and over doesn't make it true, no matter how much you skew the issue.
HOW DO YOU KNOW THESE THINGS?!?!?!
Seriously, you have been acting as if this whole "non-delicious=scum" crazy guessing theory is fact this entire game. Stop acting as if the Mod confirmed this information. It's dangerous information if the town starts think it's actually true, which thank heavens they haven't.
Examples? You say he's flailing, but that's not good enough. From this point on, I will post FLAIL?! every time someone accuses Poggy of flailing without showing how. Words are nothing without reasoning to back them up, and so far, I haven't found Poggy to be flailing whatsoever, only doing what he has to do to reason with a somewhat reckless town.
This makes me feels really good about Poggy, that he's worried about Mod-consequences if he claims too much. This reinforces his honesty IMO.
FLAIL!?
FLAIL!!?
Also, note the FoS and not a vote. Don't you think Naka will be mad about that one?
You can give players the mod-god's approval? Cause I'm pretty sure only the Mod can tell people what they are allowed to claim and what they aren't.
FLAIL!!!?!?!
I also think you need to stop thinking of a townies vote as a broadsword to attack and intimidate other players with. You should think of it more like a shield to defend you points and reinforce your ideas.
Good point.
FLAIL!!?11?/!/!??
Naka may not have called TIK's FoS an innocent mistake, but he's hold Poggy hostage as a scum partly for the same thing TIK did. Yet TIK didn't get any suspicion from Naka. Naka says the reason is because TIK isn't flailing, but what the hell does flailing have to do with using FoS instead of voting?
It's because now Naka is biased against Poggy and is just out for blood. She's scum who thinks that if she pushes hard enough on Poggy, she gets to lynch him. This kind of double standard is what makes me think Naka is scum, not just a bulldogging townie.
Being water is not a scumtell because water being scum is not a fact. Deal with it.
FLAILFLAILFLAILFLAILFLAIL
Please, somebody, show me how the hell Poggy is flailing. Everyone says he is, but nobody is brave enough to explain the hows and whys. I've given it a good hard look, and Poggy is just dealing with ridiculous and unwarranted suspicion as calmly as he can. The arguments against him are all based on faulty logic and all his posts are completely understandable in regards to this.
Ok, so what's the difference between Saying and Treating? You notice how Naka is using nitpicky arguments like this to shoot down valid arguments? I do.
This is literally only half of what I wanted to say. I might get around to the other half, I might not, but that's only because I've been working on this one post for the entirety of my afternoon/night. I've had a terrible 8 hour day at work and now 6 more hours of this one post, and I think I've earned some personal time now.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that I hope someone actually reads that and comes out with a better idea of what going on, cause I'm beat. I really don't want that time to be useless.
Guess I shouldn't have made this whole post a drunk post...
Why do you have four scum?
Well then, my arguments (which will come tomorrow) come with a preface. I wish not to clash. I thought we might have had history and I wanted to make sure to be as unbiased as possible and not take anything personally, if that was even a concern. Anyway, thanks for letting me know.
I remember that now. One of my very earliest games. I made it to endgame and didn't help a single bit the entire time. I think I was the vig. Oops.
Also, what is the case on Ex again? Ex's behavior is fairly consistant with previous town play, so unless I'm missing something huge, I'm not seeing it very much, just typical random new player Ex.
Still think AL is town, but this case doesn't sway me one bit. First, it's based around buddying, which is not a good sign. I'm not a huge fan of Buddy arguments because sure, it has a chance to catch two scum at once, but the chances of correctly pegging one scum are low, let alone two. Scum have made it a point, at least nowadays, to tie themselves to townies just to WIFOM the town, so it's a fairly weak argument, especially when both players are still alive and unconfirmed in a large game.
Also, his argument that Az is saying 'we' and 'our' is missing the point. People are going to speak in a town perspective, whether they are town or scum: it's a nulltell. Town are going to speak from the town perspective because they are town and that's just natural for them. Scum are going to speak from the town perspective because they want to appear town. It's not as if Azreal is blatentely saying in each post "I AM TOWN".
Overall, I think the case is a house of cards, but it reassures my standing on AL. He's scumhunting and that's a very good sign.
First, iBug is most def town. He's playing like he normally does as town and he's using a lot of solid logic in all of his posts so far.
Second, I didn't mean to come off as an overlord making hostile demands from the town, but I would be grateful to have everyone's clear opinion on Poggydude. Along with town/scum lists to help me catch up with this game. I think it's a proper time for mass lists. Sorry for being a bit demanding and thuggish earlier.
Third, the argument against Reya is ridiculous. A highlight to the case tomorrow is that Naka is calling Reya scum for tagging along on the joke in the beginning. Naka's accusing Reya of scummy buddying, but there are two problems with this.
1. It's utterly hypocritical. Naka and Shalako have been best bud's since page 1 and it's perfectly fine, but once Reya tries to join the party, she must be scum. If anything, Naka and Shalako are scum and Reya is a townie that fell into a trap. Although, at this point Shalako is still just newb town that made the wrong friend in Naka, but we'll see what the reread brings up.
2. Naka is attacking Reya for buddying, saying that it's scummy. Reya was buddying with Naka and Shalako, who is also on her attack. The buddying theory is that two or more, usually just two, scum will buddy with each other. So, if Reya is scum for buddying with Naka and Shalako, doesn't that mean that one, or both, are scum? Simple logic on that one.
Finally, like I said, you can expect a much longer post tomorrow that will provide all the tasty analysis this game can feed me. I'm really digging this game for some reason and I really want to give it the proper attention it deserves, which is why I'm waiting.
Also, while I'm thinking about it, personally, I think my role tastes absolutely disgusting. I also happen to think that nasty vodka is delicious. The attacks on Poggydude have stemmed from such issues. Him saying his flavor is tasteless drew several attacks from NakaSha, but really, all they are doing is guessing at the flavor of the game. It's called Gaming the Mod, and it involves guessing at what you think the mod would do. NakaSha is guessing that the scum will be disgusting, flavorless drinks and are attacking Poggy by using this guess.
The problem with guesses is that they aren't accurate whatsoever. Do you personally know SomeOne? Can you tell me exactly what his taste in drinks is? I can't. And even if I could, maybe he knew someone would guess that and switched it to where the good drinks are scum.
See, it gets confusing, but one thing is sure. Calling someone scum based on what kind of drink they are is nothing but a guessing game and usually results in a townie dying as a result of a bad guess. Gaming the mod can sometimes be a useful tool, but normally only in the late game, not on Day 1.
Someone also brought up something about expecting Nasty Vodka to be a scum role. I know that prolly makes perfect sense for you, but personally, I'd make Nasty Vodka my town doc if it were my game. Who knows about SomeOne? Maybe he really really loves his liquor, or maybe not. At this point in time, such speculation isn't really helpful to the town, and in fact creates situations where townie might be framed and attacked for something they have no control over. This is what's happening to Poggydude, among other things, and it's typically a scum tactic by the attackers. Scum like to take the quickest and easiest way to a win, and gaming the mod is a good way to look like you are doing a lot of analysis without actually doing any research in the thread. NakaSha is gaming the mod hard on Poggy, and they are calling him scum for "flailing" when all he's doing is telling them how asinine their attack is. I reacted the same way to an early newb game of mine and I know exactly what he's going through. I have an incredibly strong town read on Pog, but I'll leave more for tomorrow.
I love you.
Tacky.
PS: I love you the most SO. I love you because you made this sweet game. I also love you because you always post VC's just the way I like them. Which is soon, please!
I like this claim and don't support atlseal's lynch. From my standpoint, he's an alt-wincon townie with possible vig shots at some point. Atlseal's mood here indicates a lot of willingness to work with the town and his own goal is easily workable with the town. Let him hammer lynches, and he can use FoS or something to indicate when he would be voting, just to be sure. Hammer stealing would be a lynchable offense and we would have a say in any possible vig shots. I think this is best for both parties. Let me explain.
This is a good move for Atl mostly because working with a large group is better than working on your own to accomplish his win condition. If he were to attempt to be the hammer on all wagons without revealing his situation, it would be a very suspicious act and could lead to his own death. Teamworking with the town gives his a sort of protection.
Obviously, the town would have killing potential, which could be incredibly valuable later in the game. That is though, if Atl is willing to actually work with the town. I still think he might lying, but that's more of a kneejerk reaction from seeing an SK-like role.
Conversely, I don't like Red_O's recent vote and reactions to the claim. Although, I think I remember always getting on Red_O's case, might just be bad habit. Gotta check though.
@Red_O: Do I have a history with you? I can't remember lol. I guess that should be a good indicator that the answer is 'no' but I still await an answer.
I thought I had more to say, but I think I got sidetracked. Thank a lot, Mary...
Poggydude is the towniest townie in the history of the whole damned town.
Nakamura is either the most confused and backward townie I've ever seen, or he's scum. And seeing as how he says he's experienced at least a good bit of mafia, I'm leaning that he's scum.
Essentially the same for Shalako, only on a smaller scale. Shalako has been riding along with Shalako, but their not really tied to each other. Right now, I'm torn between a Shalako that's a shortsighted and bloodthirsty town or just scum as well.
Everyone is gaming the mod. Stop it. It's harmful to the town and is also WIFOM.
Naka and Shalako are handing out false dichotomies left and right. Stop it. It's terribly scummy. You also both killed RVS, which is also a scumtell, but only when you consider how it was killed. You forced it's end with pressure on a bad joke on a player who is infamous for lurking and bad reactions. That's scummy too.
Everyone who has limited Mafia experience needs to do their first "reread" right now. Go back and read the whole thread, specifically the End of the RVS where dracofaust "outed" himself as scum and also Poggy's flailing.
I want every players opinion on Poggy, specifically whether or not you think he's flailing and why. I want specific examples and quotes to support your opinion.
I am not a fan of the softclaim whatsoever. People think that it can help the town more than the scum, but the truth is that everyone stays on the same level. The softclaim will never be more beneficial for the town or scum. That's why some scum in other games have been the ones to propose the softclaim in the first place, making them appear more townish and open the possibility to attack an innocent after a mistake.
I have experience with this. My only game as scum was Goo Mafia and early on day one, one of our other scum players proposed a softclaim and tried to pull this same trick.
Finally, Vote Nakamura. Expect a case soon, prolly tomorrow.
Questions? Comments? Concerns? Quote me and ask away.
Partly gutfeel, with the roleplaying. He just seems to having a lot of creative fun in this game, something a scum wouldn't be focusing on this early in. Also, the RP is a good way to draw attention to yourself. It's something both town and scum can do, but it's not usually something a scum would want to do. Like I said though, a scum player can successfully draw all the attention to himself and successfully bluff the town into trusting him, but that player would have considerable experience in mafia in my opinion. I don't recall AL playing mafia very much before, but I might be mistaken.
Also, it's partly due to his bit of argument with Atlseal. He was fairly solid in his Q&A session, and I thought the reasoning in his vote for Atlseal was well thought, specifically that Atlseal was playing a more defensive stance with manders, rather than a grounded one.
And after thinking about it, it fits with the idea that Atl was just trying to get a rise out of Manders. More reading to do though.
10+ maybe, I dunno it's a handful.
I'm not a newb if that's your question.
Hello! My name is Tacky, but you can call me Tacky. I haven't read this thread at all, due to a busy weekend. You should get used to me having a busy weekend a lot. I will get prodded, but this doesn't mean I just don't care, it means I'm traveling the country attending PTQ's and large magic tournaments and the like. Expect posts out of me frequently during the week, rarely during the weekend.
That being said, I'm going to go and catch up with this crazy drink-filled thread and attempt to actually play this game.
I love you.
Tacky
Exlight is gut town as well IMO. I've never played with Ex, but I've replaced in for them. Exlight is a very new player, one prone to making a few slips. I think those slips come from Ex not taking the game as seriously as they should have in crucial points in the game. IIRC, it was Angel Mafia I replaced Ex in, and I think I was lynched there, largely due to the suspicion on Ex at the time. Not sure about the lynch or not, but I know I was under pressure for a while. I'm willing to listen to arguments against Ex, but they will be taken with plenty of salt.
Seppel is a power whore. I'm unsure of his alignment, as usual, but I think Seppel's play so far boils down to an urge of his to be in control. I would expect a plea for gold from both town and scum Seppel. He's on my longish list of rereads.
Lastly, Atlseal is another on my list of rereads, but he seems like a strong scum candidate. His back and forth with Manders seems snarky to me, and it's pushing Manders to the limit. I see this as a scum tactic, an attempt at trying to discredit Manders and all she's done so far. Manders IMO is an easily frustrated player as well, making this tactic look even worse for Atlseal. Need to look closer at the ATL-MH back and forth, but that's where I'm leaning.
Oh yeah, add Ambassador to the town list. Obv.
Kinda more suspicious of Manders/Seppel for the quick jump on Gigas. Seppel more really, as he simply disappeared after the quick vote. Gigas's responses aren't great, but gutfeel says his intentions are town. Manders stuck in the conversation and feels pretty town, but that initial attack pinged my scumdar a bit.
Those are the only reads I have so far. Need to dig through the thread and see what I missed.