If I were in a control-heavy meta, I would main-deck something on the order of 3 negates and 1 dispel instead of maindeck flashfreeze/purge.
Also, I would put 3 more dispel SB
Dispel is really your best weapon, because of its U cost. If you pop an early chalice, you can turn 4 jace w/ countermagic protection.
I don't mean to sound haughty, but I've been playing this game for about 15 years now. I'm a pretty good in-game player. I'm not the best deckbuilder in the world, but I can play this game. If you have a few years experience playing control, this is a very, very strong deck.
I have played some mirror matches where the other player seems to have no idea how to play control. The will counterspell a spreading seas (when they are playing freaking blue!) but they will tap out and allow me to get a 6 card mind spring.
Also, there are some really stupid youtube videos of matches with people horribly misplaying this deck. I mean, one guy is playing vamps and his opponent lets him get off 3 sign in bloods and then cancels bloodghast.
If I am playing vampires, there is really only a few cards I even care about countering -- sign in blood, hexmage, and mind sludge. Everything else I can Doj everyone, Purge whatever bloodghast or else slips through the cracks and ultimate jace for the win.
Removing spreading seas it totally counterproductive to what you are trying to do. It is such a versatile card --> frankly, 2-3 spreading seas early will usually win you a game. Your opponent will have 3 islands on his side by turn 5 -- which isn't a real good manabase if your not playing blue.
Late game it is critical to stop the annoying man-lands who don't die to coups - seas works really well there too.
Finally, the total worst case situation is you simply use it as a 1U cantrip. If you have jace out, you can stack your deck to get a card you need w/ seas as well.
I did place purge on the SB as well, simply because I felt like coup gives me a good chance against red and black decks pre-board, and obviously I have it for post-board.
But I can't see any reason for omitting martial coup. That is really the MVP of the deck. It is basically the whole point of running chalice -- so you can get a huge mind spring or martial coup.
Id say I don't understand your argument of having to have 4 capsule... 3 is the max I would ever run.. but I don't feel like getting into some sort of argument about it; since my list is lightly modified.
Courier Capsule gives me 2 cards for 4 mana total (regardless of early play) randomly getting whatever it would be.
Diabolic Tutor is a tool 4 cost straight up for finding any card I need in a pinch etc. Day/Open whatever.
Like you said cycling.. so I don't need a huge draw mechanic, the tool here is = to Courier's Capsule if not > imo.
The mana is solid to support it as well; I see the pros and cons I disagree about having 4 capsules in general as much as I do pulling out 1 vault.
But I do appreciate your advice but I don't see an issue with running it. And yes I remember capsule comes back with Open and Diabolic doesn't, if its a huge deal I can always run 2 mistvien and 1 Fieldmist instead of 2 of each and 3 capsules.
Sorry if I came off as hostile; text doesn't carry tone.
Yeah, thats true, but don't forget that capsule comes back w/ vaults. Also, sometimes w/ this deck, you actually DON'T want open the vaults in your hand. Often you would rather draw 2 cyclers and wait for your vaults.
I played this deck a lot, and I think that between the extra 3 life your gonna get for each capsule when it comes back + capsule's ability to activate hulk + the fact that sometimes 2 more cards to draw is better than the one card tutor will give you + the fact that every time you vaults, you can reuse capsule makes it a far more valuable piece of this deck than you might think.
I mean, it isn't uncommon to get 6 cards out of one capsule.
I'm running a deck that has similar matchup problems, but I board out Edges against RDW/Vampires for 3 quicksand and an extra piece of removal. Reduces chances of flood slightly (26 lands/4 grim discovery in my main) and gives you a lot more removal.
Yeah, I would say quicksand is a much better option that a 2 toughness blocker. I mean, is there even one guy your opponent could possibly attack with that won't kill this dude? Unless you are being attacked with like a 1/1 plated geoped or something, which is totally stupid, playing Dread is basically stone-raining yourself for no reason.
I would rather take a few damage than kill one of my lands in this manner. What makes collonade so good is that he isn't bolt-able and his 4/4 has enough bulk to block white knights and goblin guides without dying to them.
Quicksand = 100% better than dread.
Frankly, I'm finding collonade to work better as simply a threat than anything else. It is just one more thing to make my opponent uneasy. I really don't activate him that much, and when I do he usually gets bolted (w/ attacking damage). terminated, or blasted. Control decks are about playing mind games as much as anything. There is nothing better than letting my opponent feel good b/c he just killed a collonade. Those guys are free -- he cost me nothing, I'm not gonna protect him with countermagic. I'll save that negate for the pulse your gonna throw at jace. Your creatures are gonna die to doj anyways.
Well, I guess I should have clarified, but I'm not talking about jund in particular.
I was talking more about R/G aggro decks -- I have played a few of these and some are running banefire. W/ rampant growth/explore/khalani, ect they actually can get quite a bit of land out by turn 10-15 which can be nasty.
Also, I'm not sure how long you guys have been playing this deck, but against a really aggressive deck, it isn't at all atypical for them to get me down to about 8 life or less before I can wipe the board w/ a martial coup and get chumps. That's I guess more where I was coming from.
Still, I get your point that it can probably be "jaced away," but this kind of decks are usually running cantrip elves/explore, so it can get dangerous.
I know 90% of people are playing jund right now, but there are decks where this card can get scary.
My sideboard does feature Iona and battlegrace angel + rite of replication for an alternate win position post-board. So I guess this isn't as big a problem for me as I made it seem. Game 2 I can either name every single color w/ 6 ionas, or gain 30 life with one attack b/c battlegrace is a cumulative effect. Or I can just make 5 copies of whatever good creature they come up with (broodmate works well).
Anyways, it isn't like banefire is keeping me up at night in a cold sweat or anything. Just wanted some ideas. Thanks.
Does playing 1 less mana really make it worth it to do this?
Keep in mind, collonade itself has vigilance, so it isn't like your tapping it.
Also, why would I want a lightning-bolt-able man land in this deck? I'm not gonna waste a cancel protecting his stupid ass.
Man-lands are already kind of a weird part of this deck. They can be helpful, but I would rather use coup tokens as chump blockers and win with ultimate jace.
Don't get me wrong, I have won games attacking w/ collonade, and he's nice to have, but my best wins are usually the result of a well-timed big martial coup, then chumping them in front of jace.
Against the dominant weenie decks, you are much better off with either celestial purge against RDW and vamps, and Doj, path, coup against WW.
What this guy is, other than a magnet for lightning bolts, I don't know.
This is what I am thinking for playing Open the Vaults, I am running a slightly more black version of course.
Diabolic tutor is a straight up 4 tap go find what I need tool so it fits well and I usually am not using it early game so I won't be tapping out for it.
The mana layout is as such.
W 14
U 14
B 11
Also I realize I am running 4 borderpost and the pros and cons but I am okay with it.
you really, really, really need 4x courier's capsule.
Also, forget about diabolic tutor -- you have so much cycling, you'll draw yourself into an open the vaults. You really shouldn't need to tutor one.
If you insist on keeping 2 tutors, cut 1 open the vaults and put it on the sideboard to be brought in against control decks.
2x tutor + 3x open the vaults should do it in that case.
Hardcasting a borderpost is a great way to eat a pulse/oring, and then becomes a time walk. It basically says I have SoLT in my hand, but no action or removal, and therefore need to ramp to get action or removal. And to be honest, i haven't had too many issues with aggro. Guide ensures that you get 1 free discard on Filigree, and Spreading Seas is enough to color screw for 1 turn, which is all you need. Journey + O-ring + path + day means that your removal curves out. I don't know. I've never hardcasted a borderpost unless my opponent is color/mana screwed. And duress destroys you. That is part of the reason that I want spell pierce in the board.
Well, I'll just have to agree to disagree. Certainly, if I'm getting killed with a plated geoped or something, I'll remove it turn 3 rather than hard cast a boarderpost. But, at least for me, a turn 3 hard-casted borderpost followed by a turn 4 sphnx is a really good solution. The 3/5 flying sphinx pretty capably blocks almost anything a player might have out by turn 4-5.
And, if that doesn't work, I'm probably packing a DoJ which I can throw out there turn 4.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying -- if you bring a land into your hand to cast borderpost, that is waaay worse for you if they o-ring it than if it is hardcasted. I'm hardcasting it to some degree in order to STOP them from o-ringing it.
On that subject, I have literally have had players concede on turn four this way:
turn 3 o-ring my opponents borderpost
turn 4 spreading seas x2
that usually leaves them w/ two islands out on turn 4, which isn't a real good manabase for anything but a blue deck.
I'll post my decklist at some point -- I just don't know it exactly offhand and I can't get to MTGO right now.
My deck, as I have it tuned, is winning about 70% or more of its matches.
Basically, offhand, the main changes to viaene's deck are:
1) basic lands in place of lands that come in tapped (except for 2 celestial collonades)
This helps a ton, b/c ruinblaster/tectonic edge can really hurt you and you need to get open the vaults out as quickly as possible.
2) a couple more lands --- I think I'm running 22 lands and 1-2 borderposts right now, but don't quote me - I gotta look.
3) a singleton negate -- for reasons stated above (something to use against jund charm/mind sludge)
I know that seems like an odd choice, but it has saved me in a number of games. Because there are so many cyclers, you are gaining a ton of card advantage -- devoting one card to a counterspell doesn't hurt you at all.
4) SIXTY FREAKING CARDS: there is literally no reason to have 61 cards in any deck, let alone a combo deck. No offense Niels, but you made a great deck except for the weird 61 cards.
1. This assumes that this is against an aggro matchup that doesn't attack the hand.
2. This assumes that you hit non-cipt lands for your first 7 turns.
3. This assumes that they don't have ANY artifact hate.
4. This assumes that they can't remove the graveyard
5. This assumes that you hardcast the borderpost.
6. This assumes that you don't get hit by a mindsludge.
7. This assumes that they have no permission.
This only happens when the aggro opponent gets terrible draws. If this happens 15%, you are playing against subpar lists, or people who don't know when to mulligan. You are tapped out t3 for mana ramp just asking to get hit by BBE. I'd like to see your manabase, to allow 7 lands in a row without a tapped land. Also, t1 duress (vamps/jund will do that) just lost you the game. Also, how many playable 1 mana 2/2s don't have haste?
1. Duress doesn't hurt you much - they usually get a spreading seas. Non-targeted stuff like blightning helps you. Also, aggro is your worst nightmare, but you gotta be packing doj and o-ring for that problem.
2.I changed the manabase to basic lands, except for fetch lands and collonades. Sorry I didn't mention that earlier.
3. Good point, but the key is to resolve open the vaults. I try to gain about 30-50 life before I worry at all about board position.
4. Again, good point, but with your cyclers you should be about 5-8 cards ahead of them in your deck. Hopefully they don't topdeck jund charm, but I have a singleton negate maindeck and more negate/dispel sideboard to counter that stuff.
5. I always hardcast borderpost.
6. Good point, but this is a combo deck -- it does have some weaknesses. Still, I just hope I hit a negate before they try this. Or, this can actually help me if I happen to be holding some enchantments and artifacts. It'll put them in the graveyard for me.
7. True, but again, a typical weakness of any combo deck. I've been playing combo decks in T1 since 4th edition and T2 since prospbloom, so I know what you mean. Still, I just board in my counterspells and hope I can get an open the vaults resolved.
Still, that is the worst matchup for this deck - but what deck doesn't have a bad matchup? And, my entire sideboard is basically attuned for this situation.
y'all are CRAZY if you think a filigree angel in the opening hand is useless.
That is an awesome draw!
If you have courier's capsule with it, you can usually drop it in the graveyard when you get 8-9 cards in hand. If you get a sphinx, you can drop it then. If you have a borderpost or chalice, you can accelerate sphinx turn 4 and vaults turn 5. Or, if you have accelerated your mana, you can just hard-cast him turn 6-7 which can be pretty nasty for your opponent, if it is post open the vaults.
I have won a TON of games when I get multiples of filigree angel early.
I have playtested this deck about 100 times, and this is a draw that occurs about 15% of the time:
Usually it'll go something like:
turn 1 - cycle a dude (life 20)
turn 2 - spreading seas (life 18)
turn 3 - hard-cast borderpost (life 14)
turn 4 - sphinx (drop an angel and 2 artifacts) (life 12)
turn 5 - open the vaults gain 15 life (life 27)
turn 6 - path to exile threats on the board (life 24)
turn 7 - cast angel, gain another 18 life (life 42)
turn 8 DOJ, courier's capsule (life 38)
turn 9 open the vaults - gain 21 life (life 56)
turn 10 - doesn't happen b/c opponent concedes.
I've been playing this deck a lot on MTGO lately -- I think some of you guys are playing it too slowly.
You need to either use chalice or hard-cast borderpost turn 3 with this deck. Then you can turn 4 Sphinx and turn 5 vaults.
Also, without 4x fililgree angel, you may as well play something else.
The whole idea is to get an open the vaults out as soon as possible. If you already have an angel in the graveyard, you'll usually gain somewhere between 12-30 life. At that point, you can just attack with your fliers or trade with chump blocking.
It is really the second vaults that wins with this deck. Sometimes people just concede after a while -- I got to 180 life once.
Jund Charm/bojuga bog isn't as bad as you would think, because if you play this correctly, you'll be hitting open the vaults faster then they can get to it. They have 4 in the deck -- you have a ton of card draw/cycling -- you really should be able to race them to the card and beat 'em.
The key is to never let too much accumulate in the graveyard.
With this deck, I beat naya pretty consistently, go about 50/50 against Jund, and have played solidly against vampires, assuming I get a good draw.
They only decks that really kill it are boros and RDW because the speed/unearth creatures are just too much.
Yeah, your right. God I'm having a bad day. Just a little distracted.
It's called final exams and too little sleep.
Yes - you are totally correct.
Also, I would put 3 more dispel SB
Dispel is really your best weapon, because of its U cost. If you pop an early chalice, you can turn 4 jace w/ countermagic protection.
I don't mean to sound haughty, but I've been playing this game for about 15 years now. I'm a pretty good in-game player. I'm not the best deckbuilder in the world, but I can play this game. If you have a few years experience playing control, this is a very, very strong deck.
I have played some mirror matches where the other player seems to have no idea how to play control. The will counterspell a spreading seas (when they are playing freaking blue!) but they will tap out and allow me to get a 6 card mind spring.
Also, there are some really stupid youtube videos of matches with people horribly misplaying this deck. I mean, one guy is playing vamps and his opponent lets him get off 3 sign in bloods and then cancels bloodghast.
If I am playing vampires, there is really only a few cards I even care about countering -- sign in blood, hexmage, and mind sludge. Everything else I can Doj everyone, Purge whatever bloodghast or else slips through the cracks and ultimate jace for the win.
Removing spreading seas it totally counterproductive to what you are trying to do. It is such a versatile card --> frankly, 2-3 spreading seas early will usually win you a game. Your opponent will have 3 islands on his side by turn 5 -- which isn't a real good manabase if your not playing blue.
Late game it is critical to stop the annoying man-lands who don't die to coups - seas works really well there too.
Finally, the total worst case situation is you simply use it as a 1U cantrip. If you have jace out, you can stack your deck to get a card you need w/ seas as well.
I did place purge on the SB as well, simply because I felt like coup gives me a good chance against red and black decks pre-board, and obviously I have it for post-board.
But I can't see any reason for omitting martial coup. That is really the MVP of the deck. It is basically the whole point of running chalice -- so you can get a huge mind spring or martial coup.
Yeah, thats true, but don't forget that capsule comes back w/ vaults. Also, sometimes w/ this deck, you actually DON'T want open the vaults in your hand. Often you would rather draw 2 cyclers and wait for your vaults.
I played this deck a lot, and I think that between the extra 3 life your gonna get for each capsule when it comes back + capsule's ability to activate hulk + the fact that sometimes 2 more cards to draw is better than the one card tutor will give you + the fact that every time you vaults, you can reuse capsule makes it a far more valuable piece of this deck than you might think.
I mean, it isn't uncommon to get 6 cards out of one capsule.
I got carried away and wasn't specific enough.
I meant to say that I can do it in one attack.
So, again, to clarify -- I misspoke. But attacking w/ 6 of them still gets you 30 life, if my math is correct.
Yeah, I would say quicksand is a much better option that a 2 toughness blocker. I mean, is there even one guy your opponent could possibly attack with that won't kill this dude? Unless you are being attacked with like a 1/1 plated geoped or something, which is totally stupid, playing Dread is basically stone-raining yourself for no reason.
I would rather take a few damage than kill one of my lands in this manner. What makes collonade so good is that he isn't bolt-able and his 4/4 has enough bulk to block white knights and goblin guides without dying to them.
Quicksand = 100% better than dread.
Frankly, I'm finding collonade to work better as simply a threat than anything else. It is just one more thing to make my opponent uneasy. I really don't activate him that much, and when I do he usually gets bolted (w/ attacking damage). terminated, or blasted. Control decks are about playing mind games as much as anything. There is nothing better than letting my opponent feel good b/c he just killed a collonade. Those guys are free -- he cost me nothing, I'm not gonna protect him with countermagic. I'll save that negate for the pulse your gonna throw at jace. Your creatures are gonna die to doj anyways.
I was talking more about R/G aggro decks -- I have played a few of these and some are running banefire. W/ rampant growth/explore/khalani, ect they actually can get quite a bit of land out by turn 10-15 which can be nasty.
Also, I'm not sure how long you guys have been playing this deck, but against a really aggressive deck, it isn't at all atypical for them to get me down to about 8 life or less before I can wipe the board w/ a martial coup and get chumps. That's I guess more where I was coming from.
Still, I get your point that it can probably be "jaced away," but this kind of decks are usually running cantrip elves/explore, so it can get dangerous.
I know 90% of people are playing jund right now, but there are decks where this card can get scary.
My sideboard does feature Iona and battlegrace angel + rite of replication for an alternate win position post-board. So I guess this isn't as big a problem for me as I made it seem. Game 2 I can either name every single color w/ 6 ionas, or gain 30 life with one attack b/c battlegrace is a cumulative effect. Or I can just make 5 copies of whatever good creature they come up with (broodmate works well).
Anyways, it isn't like banefire is keeping me up at night in a cold sweat or anything. Just wanted some ideas. Thanks.
I guess Iona for red?
Maybe swerve in SB?
Keep in mind, collonade itself has vigilance, so it isn't like your tapping it.
Also, why would I want a lightning-bolt-able man land in this deck? I'm not gonna waste a cancel protecting his stupid ass.
Man-lands are already kind of a weird part of this deck. They can be helpful, but I would rather use coup tokens as chump blockers and win with ultimate jace.
Don't get me wrong, I have won games attacking w/ collonade, and he's nice to have, but my best wins are usually the result of a well-timed big martial coup, then chumping them in front of jace.
Against the dominant weenie decks, you are much better off with either celestial purge against RDW and vamps, and Doj, path, coup against WW.
What this guy is, other than a magnet for lightning bolts, I don't know.
you really, really, really need 4x courier's capsule.
Also, forget about diabolic tutor -- you have so much cycling, you'll draw yourself into an open the vaults. You really shouldn't need to tutor one.
If you insist on keeping 2 tutors, cut 1 open the vaults and put it on the sideboard to be brought in against control decks.
2x tutor + 3x open the vaults should do it in that case.
Add more removal in that spot.
Well, I'll just have to agree to disagree. Certainly, if I'm getting killed with a plated geoped or something, I'll remove it turn 3 rather than hard cast a boarderpost. But, at least for me, a turn 3 hard-casted borderpost followed by a turn 4 sphnx is a really good solution. The 3/5 flying sphinx pretty capably blocks almost anything a player might have out by turn 4-5.
And, if that doesn't work, I'm probably packing a DoJ which I can throw out there turn 4.
I'm not quite sure what you are saying -- if you bring a land into your hand to cast borderpost, that is waaay worse for you if they o-ring it than if it is hardcasted. I'm hardcasting it to some degree in order to STOP them from o-ringing it.
On that subject, I have literally have had players concede on turn four this way:
turn 3 o-ring my opponents borderpost
turn 4 spreading seas x2
that usually leaves them w/ two islands out on turn 4, which isn't a real good manabase for anything but a blue deck.
I'll post my decklist at some point -- I just don't know it exactly offhand and I can't get to MTGO right now.
My deck, as I have it tuned, is winning about 70% or more of its matches.
Basically, offhand, the main changes to viaene's deck are:
1) basic lands in place of lands that come in tapped (except for 2 celestial collonades)
This helps a ton, b/c ruinblaster/tectonic edge can really hurt you and you need to get open the vaults out as quickly as possible.
2) a couple more lands --- I think I'm running 22 lands and 1-2 borderposts right now, but don't quote me - I gotta look.
3) a singleton negate -- for reasons stated above (something to use against jund charm/mind sludge)
I know that seems like an odd choice, but it has saved me in a number of games. Because there are so many cyclers, you are gaining a ton of card advantage -- devoting one card to a counterspell doesn't hurt you at all.
4) SIXTY FREAKING CARDS: there is literally no reason to have 61 cards in any deck, let alone a combo deck. No offense Niels, but you made a great deck except for the weird 61 cards.
1. Duress doesn't hurt you much - they usually get a spreading seas. Non-targeted stuff like blightning helps you. Also, aggro is your worst nightmare, but you gotta be packing doj and o-ring for that problem.
2.I changed the manabase to basic lands, except for fetch lands and collonades. Sorry I didn't mention that earlier.
3. Good point, but the key is to resolve open the vaults. I try to gain about 30-50 life before I worry at all about board position.
4. Again, good point, but with your cyclers you should be about 5-8 cards ahead of them in your deck. Hopefully they don't topdeck jund charm, but I have a singleton negate maindeck and more negate/dispel sideboard to counter that stuff.
5. I always hardcast borderpost.
6. Good point, but this is a combo deck -- it does have some weaknesses. Still, I just hope I hit a negate before they try this. Or, this can actually help me if I happen to be holding some enchantments and artifacts. It'll put them in the graveyard for me.
7. True, but again, a typical weakness of any combo deck. I've been playing combo decks in T1 since 4th edition and T2 since prospbloom, so I know what you mean. Still, I just board in my counterspells and hope I can get an open the vaults resolved.
Still, that is the worst matchup for this deck - but what deck doesn't have a bad matchup? And, my entire sideboard is basically attuned for this situation.
That is an awesome draw!
If you have courier's capsule with it, you can usually drop it in the graveyard when you get 8-9 cards in hand. If you get a sphinx, you can drop it then. If you have a borderpost or chalice, you can accelerate sphinx turn 4 and vaults turn 5. Or, if you have accelerated your mana, you can just hard-cast him turn 6-7 which can be pretty nasty for your opponent, if it is post open the vaults.
I have won a TON of games when I get multiples of filigree angel early.
I have playtested this deck about 100 times, and this is a draw that occurs about 15% of the time:
Usually it'll go something like:
turn 1 - cycle a dude (life 20)
turn 2 - spreading seas (life 18)
turn 3 - hard-cast borderpost (life 14)
turn 4 - sphinx (drop an angel and 2 artifacts) (life 12)
turn 5 - open the vaults gain 15 life (life 27)
turn 6 - path to exile threats on the board (life 24)
turn 7 - cast angel, gain another 18 life (life 42)
turn 8 DOJ, courier's capsule (life 38)
turn 9 open the vaults - gain 21 life (life 56)
turn 10 - doesn't happen b/c opponent concedes.
You need to either use chalice or hard-cast borderpost turn 3 with this deck. Then you can turn 4 Sphinx and turn 5 vaults.
Also, without 4x fililgree angel, you may as well play something else.
The whole idea is to get an open the vaults out as soon as possible. If you already have an angel in the graveyard, you'll usually gain somewhere between 12-30 life. At that point, you can just attack with your fliers or trade with chump blocking.
It is really the second vaults that wins with this deck. Sometimes people just concede after a while -- I got to 180 life once.
Jund Charm/bojuga bog isn't as bad as you would think, because if you play this correctly, you'll be hitting open the vaults faster then they can get to it. They have 4 in the deck -- you have a ton of card draw/cycling -- you really should be able to race them to the card and beat 'em.
The key is to never let too much accumulate in the graveyard.
With this deck, I beat naya pretty consistently, go about 50/50 against Jund, and have played solidly against vampires, assuming I get a good draw.
They only decks that really kill it are boros and RDW because the speed/unearth creatures are just too much.