I think your all fretting over nothing. First off theres already competitive EDH (i know people who solely go to GP's and sweep through 4 mans all weekend) the format can be as casual or competitive as Legacy/Vintage itself. No matter what they do to the format those players at local shops who want to keep it casual will, this format has always been a player driven format and at the local level it will remain that way. On the other hand if you make it competitive it may raise some of the prices but its unlikely due to the fact that anyone who would play it as a competitive format probably already does and has all the staples. All im saying is theres no need to freak out about this 2HG became a sanctioned format but you still get more casual players playing EDH at the kitchen table or at local shops then you ever do in a GP setting.
As far as the financial aspect of EDH goes... sweeney your half correct. Yes you can build a semi competitive EDH deck for less than 700 but frankly mine cost over a grand and frankly in order to be legit tier 1 it has too. I also have a 200~$ deck for fun games with my friends but if I go to a GP or am playing for some sort of prize I bust out the turn 2-3 win deck...and in order to have that win pattern you have to drop a significantly larger amount than on standard. Though you only need 1 or each card most of them cost 10+ as opposed to a few at 50-80 and the rest at .10-5.00. But most people dont drop that kind of cash on EDH so unless your looking to build legit tier 1 EDH (theres honetly about 3 decks that all run about the same 60 card shell and change a little on the storm engine otherwise) yes EDH is cheaper and so few people have the cards or the care to build tier 1...cause well frankly its no where near fun and isnt that what most people want from EDH?
Clearly there isn't room to run all of these guys, so the question is which work best in the deck? I'd love to hear some opinions on just how many slots are reasonable for a curve this low.
For now Ranger as a 3-4 of and Lodestone as a 2 of after the new set drops 3 Ranger 3 Tezz seems correct. Lodestone is good but Tezz is insane for this deck.
This has been working great with 3 Mox and 3 Drum. Havent had mana issues outside of the average screw etc since I dropped down to 17 from 19.
EDIT: @TPC yea the guy is honestly the stone cold nuts for this deck, he's everything we could want for a planeswalker and will surely be a 3 of in almost everyones list.
How many Lodestone Golems do you run? Seems clunky, I can see on the play it making a difference on turn 3.
I only run two, You could replace them with the fourth Ranger and fourth ceratarch and I would if you have a heavy aggro metagame. As far as at a major event though you want him. Hes a beatstick first off survives fallout from the gate and doesnt slow you down much at all if you play properly. It keeps fae of being able to get to that crucial 6 mana to mistbind and have CS backup and can be just what you need in addition with seize and sculler to give yourself that one extra turn to win. He is defiently the first on the chopping block but I have tried card draw, discard, smaller guys and he seems to be the best for the spot. My second choices would be dark tutelage or esper charm if you really dont like him.
Tezz is insane enough said, he will be replacing the Lodestones when the time comes and probably 1 other card though im undecided as to what. He is exactly what this deck needed card draw (reach), more bodies after wrath (he can turn a mox into a 5/5 permanently and it still swing the turn you activate him) and an additional win condition (most of the games I find myself losing my opponent is at 4-6 life making him a must answer card for almost everyone else. I think he single handedly may make this deck not only tier 1 but a consistant t8 at major events.
As for Revoker, he seems fine if theres actually in cards in the format with activated abilities that scare us, I cant really think of much right now but perhaps im missing something?
EDIT: and as for the poster who mention Vedalken Outlander, hes not worth it fallout shouldnt be to big of an issue for this deck. You have the discard to deal with it an addition to 8 lords that take your guys out of range, sacrificing a 2 drop spot to a grizzly bear is not ideal. I even cut forge tender from the board cause I was finding that fallout just wasnt doing much vs me in the first place.
Whats everyones opinion of Esper charm? EoT Draw two cards in more fuel, during draw step discard two against control is strong, instant speed enchantment removal against valakut and the mirror is really good.
I currently have them in the steel overseer spot.
Also I've been testing windbrisk and I hated getting it as either my first two land drops, makes for a very slow tempered and if I curve out doesn't let me drop a tempered or master turn 2. As my third land drop, it is pretty nice though...but thats fantasy magic more then anything ;P, of course so is curving out.
I have really been looking for a spot for Charm in my 75. It has been slipping in and out with lodestone golem as a two of but I just find Golem better. The only matchup I really want charm vs is wargate and though its helpful lodestone turn 3 is usually a better threat vs almost everything else, specially with the lack of bolt in the format.
As for Windbrisk, I cant say I find myself having the same problems in fact it makes akward hands such as ornithopter memnite court homunulus and a few non creature non TS spells far more keepable knowing you get to dig 4 deeper.
Why aren't people playing Zealous Persecution somewhere in the 75 of these decks?
I play three in the board it is great vs elves, mythic and fae all of which can be pretty close matches except fae which is usually in your favor slightly.. ZP vs mythic is probably your best answer from my experience.
As for Painsmith he is a great card, and maybe some evolution of this deck will be able to utilize him the problem I find is you may have one explosive turn with him, similar to glaze fiend but he usually comes down turn 2 which is akward when we usually drop 3 of our artifacts turn 1. This makes him a dead two drop 2/1 half of your draws and unless you see something like ranger of eos its unlikely you will get enough mileage out of him. Hes another one of those guys that seems great on paper but then you play him and realize he actually forces you to slow down. As well theres nothing I would cut for him we are already lowering are artifact count for Certarch, Seize, TS, and Ranger. Adding anything else would make alot of akward draws.
OK question: How come no one has considered Glaze fiend. It seems to have potential to do really well in a deck of all artifacts. Plus we have the potential to get this card online T1. it it mainly just the mana cost and it's P/T when no artifacts or Tempered steel is on the board?
He was actually in on of my lists with esperzoa and borderposts (max value) even then when you were playing two a turn I felt like I had to concentrate on getting him big enough each turn as opposed to being able to do other things, your two drop spot is tight because this deck usually ramps from 1-3 and skips two all together wasting time playing this guy doesnt help you much and he usually gets bolted or something asap anyway. AT least with sculler you get disruption as well. It still seems great in theory (believe me he was one of the guys I was most excited about with this deck theory) but in the end he just comes up short. If he was a 1 drop and didnt have flying he would be incredible but he just doesnt fit the curve well enough.
Windbrisk is awesome. You will consistently have it ACTIVE by turn three, when people were perfectly happy using it on turn four after Procession (the words "best combo ever" come to mind). Already you are a turn ahead of Boatbrew, which did a number on Standard. Then you realize that you can have it active as early as turn two. A more consistent Tempered Steel turn two sounds good. If that's "win-more" then I don't know the meaning of win, considering we need a Lord to win in the first place.
*The chances that you can't find a Lord out of the 12 cards you see (8 drawn, 4 from Hideaway) is slim. Even if you don't get a Lord, you will almost always get a (non-land) permanent out of it.
**There is a 1/5 chance that you will see a Lord normally. With Hideaway you are practically guaranteed a Lord, and a way to cast it regardless of your Lands.
Agreed. Glad someone else is realizing how busted that card is in here. Theres limitless changes that needed to be made to the worlds list (again cut Steel Overseer hes not what you want this deck to do.) but once those changes are made I feel this deck is absolutely in the running for tier 1. I guess we will have to see how it goes in ATL next weekend.
I'm skeptical about any ETBT lands in this deck, Windbrisk Heights as well. Next time you cast it and find yourself attacking with 3 guys, ask yourself whether or not you'd already be winning the game without Hideaway.
If the answer is "yes," Windbrisk Heights would be more of a win-more card rather than a solid option, and that's with the added liability of entering the battlefield tapped (or even Hideaway missing something useful!).
Believe me I agree in most decks but when the creatures your attcking with are 0/2's and 1/1's sometimes Windbrisk is exactly what you need. I havent found it to be win more at all honestly exactly the opposite, it wins the games you shouldnt necessarily win due solely to the card advantage.
EDIT: and run 3, best change I have made to that deck by far. You either play it t1 if you have no other play or else you play it t2 when you get your second mana from a mox or springleaf. I truly dont see it slowing me down hardly ever...certainly way less than it helps me win.
And another question i would like answered is why no Arcane Sanctum in the land base.
Like stated ETBT is pretty bad here...I play windbrisk heights and that has proven worth it but otherwise I cant think of a reason I would play another ETBT land. The mana is fine I dont really ever seem to have mana issues mox and drum help alot!
Red is doing pretty well right now because it consistently wins on t5 (fast enough to race Omen) and has a natural edge on Faeries by turning Bitterblossom against them. Jund is doing well, because well... it's Jund and people are lazy. Naya does well, but same story there, it can consistently win on T5 since it's guys all hit like mack trucks. Any good Mythic hand wins on T4; 5 if disrupted.
Long story short, all the best decks are either Fae or can win on T5 with good hands anyway. It's just that when things go badly for decks like Mythic and Naya they have far better cards on average than Steel. Like it isn't even close. Aggro doesn't need to fly under the radar to win in this format, it just has to have a reasonable game against Fae and Jund. Naya and Mythic do (though admittedly Mythic has a rough time vs. Fae post-board, where as Naya just smashes Fae period).
Sure. Post MODO SN and I'll gladly look up what you've done with it. Or a PTQ you've top eighted. Etc. Etc. You know, tangible results.
I use MODO strictly for drafting and as far as PTQ's go the season just started...ya know like two weeks ago at most. I havent made it to one yet, I would be in Columbus this weekend but I have to get things around business wise for ATL so I wont have any of these results you request until then, again if I decide to play. The point i have been trying to get at that you just refuse to see is that this deck has hardly been turned and frankly in this slow of a meta a deck that can win t3 (granted extrememly lucky hands) but t4 and t5 consistantly with disruption (something mythic and naya lack) should not be dismissed. I agree pound for pound each of thier creatures is better however naya doesnt have any spells like tempered steel that just flat out win the game when cast and Mythics is far more fragile that TS due to being a creature, and that makes this deck dangerous. I dont see where your having inconsistency with this deck...I guess your just testing with a bad list or something because I dont seem to have issues, mana or draw wise.
Thorn is a graet utility card if you expect alot of Wargate and 4cc/U/w control. It helps those matches alot coupled with Seize/Certarch/Sculler. I run two lodestone main and two more SB however the two sb are just filler as those are the only spots in the 75 im unsure about. I never want to bring my curve up that high but the two md have been testing extremely well, it lets you steal games sometimes and at least is a 5 power 4 cost guy which has never proven bad.
I literally have no experience with this deck so this may not work at all, but I've been considering playing UWR because I know I don't have access to any thoughtseizes. I figured that lightning bolt, galvanic blast and arc trail all seem like solid cards I could play, while also reducing the mana intensity in all my cards giving me access to dread statuary. This is the deck I've worked out, but if you guys think the hand disruption is necessary let me know.
I have tried a version similar to this (this has seriously been my pet deck since way before worlds...as soon as I saw memnite acually) I have found that running red for a solid burn lategame seems great in teory but you end up with alot of hands that can burn for a quick 7-11 damage but just cant get the rest through, you want to fulfil metalcraft and disrupt your opponent and red doesnt help you with either of those things, if you have a very heavy WW meta or something I could see this working but vs all the fae and such its just not enough board presence and disruption to win games. If you cant afford thoughtseize, try a 3 Duress 1 Inquisition MD and 2 more Inquisition SB, I have seen this work pretty well too but sadly it doesnt quite get alot of the cards you want to hit (Mistbind Clique, Bloodbraid Elf, Ranger of Eos etc.) the need to keep your opponent off board advantage is key and sadly thoughtseize commands the price for a reason.
Yes, because I totally believe Memnite and 2/2's that aren't Goblin Guide are winning you games in Extended all by their lonesome. That's believable. Nobody in Extended runs sweepers or broken things that completely trump your game-plan. Where's your results again for relevant things?
Funny story about this format you know so much about....its slow as hell... and yes sometimes 3 power on turn 1 followed by a few more guys turn 2-3 is enough you dont need tempered steel, if you read the whole post I did say "dropping memnite court homunculus with a few guys on the next few turns has won me just as many games" So please learn to read before you flame. And on another point what do you truly know about the format with all these "sweepers" Everyone keeps saying that but honestly other than maybe 4cc that runs DoJ and U/W control I dont see much in the way of sweepers...again fallout is neither here nor there its a dead cardif you get master or tempered steel so yes I guess sometimes it can devistate you but just as often they either a) wont draw it or b) youll have TS or Master in play. Point being read before you make yourself look like a fool, just because your unwilling o pick up the deck and do some testing for yourself does not mean I am going to coddle you. And yes this deck is amazing and yes I have the results to back it up, I live off of Magic I test constantly and not on MWS, these are not just figments of my imagination as you seem to think...
As far as the financial aspect of EDH goes... sweeney your half correct. Yes you can build a semi competitive EDH deck for less than 700 but frankly mine cost over a grand and frankly in order to be legit tier 1 it has too. I also have a 200~$ deck for fun games with my friends but if I go to a GP or am playing for some sort of prize I bust out the turn 2-3 win deck...and in order to have that win pattern you have to drop a significantly larger amount than on standard. Though you only need 1 or each card most of them cost 10+ as opposed to a few at 50-80 and the rest at .10-5.00. But most people dont drop that kind of cash on EDH so unless your looking to build legit tier 1 EDH (theres honetly about 3 decks that all run about the same 60 card shell and change a little on the storm engine otherwise) yes EDH is cheaper and so few people have the cards or the care to build tier 1...cause well frankly its no where near fun and isnt that what most people want from EDH?
For now Ranger as a 3-4 of and Lodestone as a 2 of after the new set drops 3 Ranger 3 Tezz seems correct. Lodestone is good but Tezz is insane for this deck.
I run 17. My mana base is
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Windbrish Heights
3 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Swamp
This has been working great with 3 Mox and 3 Drum. Havent had mana issues outside of the average screw etc since I dropped down to 17 from 19.
EDIT: @TPC yea the guy is honestly the stone cold nuts for this deck, he's everything we could want for a planeswalker and will surely be a 3 of in almost everyones list.
I only run two, You could replace them with the fourth Ranger and fourth ceratarch and I would if you have a heavy aggro metagame. As far as at a major event though you want him. Hes a beatstick first off survives fallout from the gate and doesnt slow you down much at all if you play properly. It keeps fae of being able to get to that crucial 6 mana to mistbind and have CS backup and can be just what you need in addition with seize and sculler to give yourself that one extra turn to win. He is defiently the first on the chopping block but I have tried card draw, discard, smaller guys and he seems to be the best for the spot. My second choices would be dark tutelage or esper charm if you really dont like him.
Tezz is insane enough said, he will be replacing the Lodestones when the time comes and probably 1 other card though im undecided as to what. He is exactly what this deck needed card draw (reach), more bodies after wrath (he can turn a mox into a 5/5 permanently and it still swing the turn you activate him) and an additional win condition (most of the games I find myself losing my opponent is at 4-6 life making him a must answer card for almost everyone else. I think he single handedly may make this deck not only tier 1 but a consistant t8 at major events.
As for Revoker, he seems fine if theres actually in cards in the format with activated abilities that scare us, I cant really think of much right now but perhaps im missing something?
EDIT: and as for the poster who mention Vedalken Outlander, hes not worth it fallout shouldnt be to big of an issue for this deck. You have the discard to deal with it an addition to 8 lords that take your guys out of range, sacrificing a 2 drop spot to a grizzly bear is not ideal. I even cut forge tender from the board cause I was finding that fallout just wasnt doing much vs me in the first place.
I have really been looking for a spot for Charm in my 75. It has been slipping in and out with lodestone golem as a two of but I just find Golem better. The only matchup I really want charm vs is wargate and though its helpful lodestone turn 3 is usually a better threat vs almost everything else, specially with the lack of bolt in the format.
As for Windbrisk, I cant say I find myself having the same problems in fact it makes akward hands such as ornithopter memnite court homunulus and a few non creature non TS spells far more keepable knowing you get to dig 4 deeper.
I play three in the board it is great vs elves, mythic and fae all of which can be pretty close matches except fae which is usually in your favor slightly.. ZP vs mythic is probably your best answer from my experience.
As for Painsmith he is a great card, and maybe some evolution of this deck will be able to utilize him the problem I find is you may have one explosive turn with him, similar to glaze fiend but he usually comes down turn 2 which is akward when we usually drop 3 of our artifacts turn 1. This makes him a dead two drop 2/1 half of your draws and unless you see something like ranger of eos its unlikely you will get enough mileage out of him. Hes another one of those guys that seems great on paper but then you play him and realize he actually forces you to slow down. As well theres nothing I would cut for him we are already lowering are artifact count for Certarch, Seize, TS, and Ranger. Adding anything else would make alot of akward draws.
He was actually in on of my lists with esperzoa and borderposts (max value) even then when you were playing two a turn I felt like I had to concentrate on getting him big enough each turn as opposed to being able to do other things, your two drop spot is tight because this deck usually ramps from 1-3 and skips two all together wasting time playing this guy doesnt help you much and he usually gets bolted or something asap anyway. AT least with sculler you get disruption as well. It still seems great in theory (believe me he was one of the guys I was most excited about with this deck theory) but in the end he just comes up short. If he was a 1 drop and didnt have flying he would be incredible but he just doesnt fit the curve well enough.
Agreed. Glad someone else is realizing how busted that card is in here. Theres limitless changes that needed to be made to the worlds list (again cut Steel Overseer hes not what you want this deck to do.) but once those changes are made I feel this deck is absolutely in the running for tier 1. I guess we will have to see how it goes in ATL next weekend.
Believe me I agree in most decks but when the creatures your attcking with are 0/2's and 1/1's sometimes Windbrisk is exactly what you need. I havent found it to be win more at all honestly exactly the opposite, it wins the games you shouldnt necessarily win due solely to the card advantage.
EDIT: and run 3, best change I have made to that deck by far. You either play it t1 if you have no other play or else you play it t2 when you get your second mana from a mox or springleaf. I truly dont see it slowing me down hardly ever...certainly way less than it helps me win.
Like stated ETBT is pretty bad here...I play windbrisk heights and that has proven worth it but otherwise I cant think of a reason I would play another ETBT land. The mana is fine I dont really ever seem to have mana issues mox and drum help alot!
I use MODO strictly for drafting and as far as PTQ's go the season just started...ya know like two weeks ago at most. I havent made it to one yet, I would be in Columbus this weekend but I have to get things around business wise for ATL so I wont have any of these results you request until then, again if I decide to play. The point i have been trying to get at that you just refuse to see is that this deck has hardly been turned and frankly in this slow of a meta a deck that can win t3 (granted extrememly lucky hands) but t4 and t5 consistantly with disruption (something mythic and naya lack) should not be dismissed. I agree pound for pound each of thier creatures is better however naya doesnt have any spells like tempered steel that just flat out win the game when cast and Mythics is far more fragile that TS due to being a creature, and that makes this deck dangerous. I dont see where your having inconsistency with this deck...I guess your just testing with a bad list or something because I dont seem to have issues, mana or draw wise.
Thorn is a graet utility card if you expect alot of Wargate and 4cc/U/w control. It helps those matches alot coupled with Seize/Certarch/Sculler. I run two lodestone main and two more SB however the two sb are just filler as those are the only spots in the 75 im unsure about. I never want to bring my curve up that high but the two md have been testing extremely well, it lets you steal games sometimes and at least is a 5 power 4 cost guy which has never proven bad.
I have tried a version similar to this (this has seriously been my pet deck since way before worlds...as soon as I saw memnite acually) I have found that running red for a solid burn lategame seems great in teory but you end up with alot of hands that can burn for a quick 7-11 damage but just cant get the rest through, you want to fulfil metalcraft and disrupt your opponent and red doesnt help you with either of those things, if you have a very heavy WW meta or something I could see this working but vs all the fae and such its just not enough board presence and disruption to win games. If you cant afford thoughtseize, try a 3 Duress 1 Inquisition MD and 2 more Inquisition SB, I have seen this work pretty well too but sadly it doesnt quite get alot of the cards you want to hit (Mistbind Clique, Bloodbraid Elf, Ranger of Eos etc.) the need to keep your opponent off board advantage is key and sadly thoughtseize commands the price for a reason.
Funny story about this format you know so much about....its slow as hell... and yes sometimes 3 power on turn 1 followed by a few more guys turn 2-3 is enough you dont need tempered steel, if you read the whole post I did say "dropping memnite court homunculus with a few guys on the next few turns has won me just as many games" So please learn to read before you flame. And on another point what do you truly know about the format with all these "sweepers" Everyone keeps saying that but honestly other than maybe 4cc that runs DoJ and U/W control I dont see much in the way of sweepers...again fallout is neither here nor there its a dead cardif you get master or tempered steel so yes I guess sometimes it can devistate you but just as often they either a) wont draw it or b) youll have TS or Master in play. Point being read before you make yourself look like a fool, just because your unwilling o pick up the deck and do some testing for yourself does not mean I am going to coddle you. And yes this deck is amazing and yes I have the results to back it up, I live off of Magic I test constantly and not on MWS, these are not just figments of my imagination as you seem to think...