I suggest -2 pierce, -1 thoughtscour, -1 path, +2 probe, +1 snapcaster, +1 Tropical island. With mentor I like seal of cleansing, but with snapcaster I prefer disenchant or council's judgment.
My experience playing NO strategies in the past, primarily Bant and RUG, leads me to a couple of general thoughts.
- Daze is good in NO decks, but it is poor here with your mana base, with your 3 basics, only 3 total islands (1 of which is only a target for half of your fetches). Additionally when basing a deck around a 4 cmc spell, I prefer 19-20 non-arbor lands. Swapping at least two of those basics for underground seas would improve the mana generally and the playability of daze specifically. If you don't have them, add at least 1 watery grave.
- I like 5-7 dorks, not counting GSZ. Increases the percentage of games you have an early NO. Also dorks are green, which means they are valid creatures to sac to NO.
- GSZ is necessary here, I think, but I like it WAY better with a small white splash for the plethora of awesome hate bears (gaddock teeg, qasali pridemage, knight of the reliquary foremost)
- With dedicated NO decks, I typically want 6-7 ways to get a naturally drawn progenitus out of my hand, or 2 targets. 4 brainstorms is probably shy of what you want here. Adding vendilion clique or jace, the mind sculptor helps in this regard.
- I don't understand the inclusion of delver here as it stands. I get that cutting them makes your forces worse. If you want NO main deck, I think you are better off moving towards a shardless style BUG deck rather than a delver one. Including cards like Leovold, emissary of trest would be strong(blue and green creature, which also protects you from spot removal and disruption to a degree). I get that having two strategies can be good, but if that is what you are going for, I would put the NO package into the board. My reasoning for this is that opponents typically board way down on counter magic against delver decks which makes them much more susceptible to a card like NO post board.
I would either build a stock BUG delver deck with 1 arbor, 3 NO, and 1 Progenitus in the board or start with something more like this:
@inked. I think you rightly point out that T1 Noble is your best opening, and given your mana base constraints, I think you should include at least 1, probably 2, birds of paradise. I have found 7 dorks to be optimal, but I recognize that birds is much weaker than noble and deathrite doesn't fit your deck or fetch count, so you probably don't want to go to 7. Birds is often a poor hit off of plea, but you need good mana to make a deck like this work.
You might also consider picking up some seachrome coasts, razorverge thickets, and/or botanical sanctums to act as pseudo-duals on the early turns when it is most important, and bring your basic count down to 4-5.
As you are moving pieces around and adjusting to the new cards, is it time to move Sword of Fire and Ice back to the sideboard? It is an effect you want access to, but perhaps it is dead in enough G1s to be moved to the side and improve the creature or land bases that little bit more.
I picked up a Tamiyo a while ago but haven't played with it yet.
Worship: I like the power of the effect, and that it hoses some decks. That is definitely a good characteristic for sideboard cards. That said, I haven't played it, and don't have any plans to test it. If you do, post your results please.
The major change I made to this deck recently was to put 1 sanctum prelate in the sideboard in place of elspeth and a snapcaster mage in the main for my sword of fire and ice. Prelate is outstanding. The snapcaster is great against eldrazi and maverick and very good against delver. I tested Leovold, Emissary of Trest at the Richmond Classic (finished 13th). It was outstanding against Lands and ANT, but generally underwhelming. Since those matchups are already very good, I cut him. He is very good when you are in a proactive posture but poor when you are behind. He might be worth sideboarding, if I can find a way to condense my combo hate a bit more. To play Leovold properly in the main deck the mana base would need some work, for example cutting the wastelands for 2 more fetches a bayou and a savannah and adding the 4rth deathrite... not sure that is worth it.
Played in the SCG Legacy Classic yesterday. Decklist Finished 2nd of 118
I built the sideboard to be solid against Eldrazi and Miracles, hence the second path and two walkers. The second path should have been a dismember (one colorless mana is much better than 1 white). I also found that the opponents running land hate targeted my white sources almost exclusively, so cutting the path and avoiding double white (elspeth) spells is probably a good idea, though miracles won't disrupt your mana. New Tamiyo might be better in that spot, fine against miracles, excellent against shardless, etc... though almost any walker or card advantage spell is probably fine for the purpose.
Round 1: RUG Delver (W 2-0), Started off strong. He started with T1 goose, which is not scary. My dorks were able to give me solid mana. Threw some test spells into the maw of daze and force (stoneforge and clique) to allow me to stick library and TNN. Game 2, Brought in path, decay and flusterstorm. He again started with T1 goose and I was the bigger control deck, sitting back, putting down road blocks and taking him off of green mana.
Round 2: Lands (W 2-0), As I have said, I love this matchup. My opponent had just finished his deck before the tournament so was not yet fluent with the deck. G1 I stuck an early deathrite, followed by library and wasteland. With library I floated white source and plow. When I tapped the wasteland to play a TNN he took his chance on his turn to gamble for one combo piece and rotate for the other, making the 20/20. I untapped used the libary to draw white source + plow and put him up to 35. Wasteland and deathrite meant he never got going again, and I quickly killed him. Game 2 I brought in 2x path, 2x mage, 2x surgical, 1x RIP, 1x invasive surgery, +1 grip, +1 decay. -4 plow, -1 sofai, -3 daze, -2 mystic. Didn't see sideboard cards just built an army and disrupted long enough with waste, deathrite and 2 hard cast forces on life from the loams to keep him from doing anything.
Round 3: UW stoneblade with thought-knot (2-0), He had apparently seen me playing in the earlier rounds and sat down sulking, not wanting to deal with TNN. His mana draws were poor both games so I didn't have to do much. After seeing the decklist, it looks very interesting but I did not get to play against this deck when it was performing well. Game 2 had a memorable blow out where my one-of post board, on-the-draw daze countered his batterskull. He did well for the rest of the day, so the deck likely has chops but when we talked he said it wasn't quite there yet. One to keep an eye on.
Round 4: Eldrazi aggro (2-1), Sitting down I new he was on Eldrazi. Game 1 I mulliganed an ok hand, since I knew it wasn't good in the matchup, and was rewarded with a hand that cast mystic on T2 and was swinging with Jitte on T3. He made a string of chump blockers but couldn't keep the jitte at bay. He showed me two basic wastes in game 1 which I thought was interesting. Game 2, brought in paths (despite the wastes), decay, grip, and garruk, I again mulliganed to 6. Kept trop, waste, deathrite, and his early wasteland took me off colored sources long enough for him to run me over. Game 3 he didn't do a ton. Jitte and TNN were enough.
Round 5: Grixis Delver, turbo angler (2-1), Ben is an outstanding player. I knew he was playing Grixis but was very much caught off guard by a snapcaster in game 1. In game 2 we played a low resource game trading wastelands. Luckily for me he made one glaring error in this game, on my turn I wasted him off of colored lands, but he had an angler and a wasteland of his own in play. He used his waste in his next pre-combat main phase to hit one of my trops. I floated blue. He then attempted to pass into combat. I used my floating mana and noble + second trop to cast clique. He revealed a hand with a decay (which I took), a daze and a polluted delta, along with some other cards he wasn't near casting. Had he played the delta, I could not have cliqued and he almost certainly wins. Game 3 we play another low resource game but I am able to get a better mana footing and TNN plus exalted does the job.
Round 6: D&T (1-2); At this point, I am feeling great, one of only 3 5-0's, paired against another 5-0 and based on the standings we can both double draw in. I do a poor job of explaining this however and my opponent decides he wants to play. I tilt HARD. My opponent is playing the new Thalia which is annoying for my deck, so I attempt to plow it completely missing that my opponent played a Karakas the previous turn. I later miss a vial activation with known information... just a mess. I win game 2 off of a zealous persecution and game 3 he has double waste, double port and a plow for my dork and I never do much. His sword of fire and ice did a lot of work in all three games. Crestfallen, I examine the standings for as long as possible before the next round is called.
Round 7: D&T, ID. When sitting down I know a draw locks in my opponent and puts me at >90% to top 8. Of the people on 15 points I had the highest breakers by a mile (all three categories) and even better against the people with 13 points. My opponent had 16 points, so a draw locked him in for top 8. I took that risk that a draw would put me into 8th rather than 9th (some truly weird breaker stuff would have had to happen). My strong start to the day allowed me to get away with this, making the 8th spot with room to spare.
Top8 :same D&T player from round 6 (2-0), He got me in round 6 but I played these games tight and they were not close. His success with SoFaI and new Thalia in our previous round blinded him somewhat I think. Game one I had a nice play. He had an active mystic (sofai in hand) with 3 mana. I had deathrite, stoneforge, TNN. He attempted to plow my deathrite so I cast daze to put him to a decision, get rid of my deathrite by paying for the daze or activate his mystic this turn. He tanked for a while. Without the daze, he would have been able to force me to chump with my mystic and then would have started getting hits in with the sword, racing my TNN +jitte (in hand). He let me keep the deathrite choosing to get his sword into play. My mystic blocked his so sworded guy the following turn, I then put in and equipped my jitte and attacked getting counters. A chump with my deathrite and string of nobles I drew put him too far behind to recover and a StP for the revoker he eventually put on jitte locked him out a few turns later. Game 2 he started slowly but had a needle for my two deathrites. I found the third deathrite the following turn (sigh). Triple Deathrite beat down accompanied by a string of removal spells and a Kgrip to remove the needle late in the game was enough to get the win. After round 6, I must admit this one felt very good.
Top 4 ANT (2-1), As the 8 seed I was on the draw throughout top 8. I knew he was on ANT, so I was unsurprised when my mediocre 6 card keep and scry to the bottom got killed on T2. Game 2 I mulled to 5 and thought I was truly out of it, but trop, noble, daze, canonist were enough to make my first 2 turns very good. I found a meddling mage for T3 and 2/2 beatdown did the job. Game 3 I had a very solid hand and again including a T2 canonist with counter back up, so when he didn't kill me on T1, I was well positioned and took it relatively easily.
Finals Grixis Delver, turbo angler (1-2) Rematch of round 5. Game 1 I had a strong start but his wasteland, bolt and force all on T2 put me way behind. I was able to stablize at 4 life with a mystic into batterskull and a counterspell for his dismember. G2 I mulled to 6. It was back and forth but he got it. Game 3 I kept a mana heavy hand (2 noble, tundra, trop, wasteland) figuring that as long as he didn't have forked bolt this hand would let me have the mana advantage throughout and I would be in good shape. On his T2 when he wastelanded my tundra and forked bolted both of my nobles I fell way behind. My remaining tropical island didn't cast the string of white spells I drew and when I found another land it was my basic forest. A brainstorm lock a turn later was the writing on the wall. He killed me with 2 gurmag anglers.
Other than losing my head in round 6 I am happy with how I played. I continue to love the deck, and like other deathblade decks it is infinitely tunable which is nice. Putting the same report on the other legacy discussion board.
I really like the card, but am in the same general head space as you, don't think she is better than Jace or Elspeth. I think she would excel in a metagame full of shardless bug and probably eldrazi. Basically the decks that grind you down with good creatures but have minimal mana disruption. Not sure what other common matchups she really helps. I haven't ever cast her though, so just speculating.
I played with Edric for a while using the old Bahra_ list and a few modified versions. Edric is an odd duck. It costs 3 mana and doesn't have an ETB trigger. You also have to build your deck with a lot of other, lower curve creatures to make him work well. It is cute in a GSZ deck, probably as a 1 of in Elves would be his best home, but I think there are better things to do in the Bant colors. Vendilion Clique is just a better card in most situations.
Played a bit last night. Enchantress isn't good enough for modern (too much main deck removal and when they don't have removal it is win more), however spreading seas and monastery mentor both are. I will edit this post with an updated list in a little bit.
I love that there is infinite sideboard potential in this deck so you can make powerful metagame calls, including gifts/unburial combo when you are feeling frisky.
I use to have spreading seas in the ancestral visions spot before the unbanning (Sigil cascade was a favorite of mine in standard and I have played it once in a while in modern). I am going to test it out on Thursday and Friday at my LGS. It is possible that I will want the velocity that spreading seas provides in place of runed halo or in the enchantress spot. Thanks for the suggestion!
With the return of ancestral vision, the control decks should return and the ones that cascade will take the best advantage of it. This deck will be a bit weak to other control decks game 1, but should be excellent against anything creature or combo based decks. This is draft one with the new cards. There are tons of options (walkers, clique, retreat, thopter/sword, Magus's, prison effects, etc).
With lands, aggro loam, shardless, and eldrazi all showing up pretty regularly in paper around me, I have gone to 2x price of progress, 2x spell pierce, 1x spell snare and 1x True-Name Nemesis in my 6 flex spots. I like this build a lot. Board has to have a bit more counter magic than normal, but the reach of PoP and difficulty dealing with TNN have helped immensely as the paper magic seen has shifted to slightly bigger, grindier decks.
- Daze is good in NO decks, but it is poor here with your mana base, with your 3 basics, only 3 total islands (1 of which is only a target for half of your fetches). Additionally when basing a deck around a 4 cmc spell, I prefer 19-20 non-arbor lands. Swapping at least two of those basics for underground seas would improve the mana generally and the playability of daze specifically. If you don't have them, add at least 1 watery grave.
- I like 5-7 dorks, not counting GSZ. Increases the percentage of games you have an early NO. Also dorks are green, which means they are valid creatures to sac to NO.
- GSZ is necessary here, I think, but I like it WAY better with a small white splash for the plethora of awesome hate bears (gaddock teeg, qasali pridemage, knight of the reliquary foremost)
- With dedicated NO decks, I typically want 6-7 ways to get a naturally drawn progenitus out of my hand, or 2 targets. 4 brainstorms is probably shy of what you want here. Adding vendilion clique or jace, the mind sculptor helps in this regard.
- I don't understand the inclusion of delver here as it stands. I get that cutting them makes your forces worse. If you want NO main deck, I think you are better off moving towards a shardless style BUG deck rather than a delver one. Including cards like Leovold, emissary of trest would be strong(blue and green creature, which also protects you from spot removal and disruption to a degree). I get that having two strategies can be good, but if that is what you are going for, I would put the NO package into the board. My reasoning for this is that opponents typically board way down on counter magic against delver decks which makes them much more susceptible to a card like NO post board.
I would either build a stock BUG delver deck with 1 arbor, 3 NO, and 1 Progenitus in the board or start with something more like this:
1x Birds of Paradise
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Edric, Spymaster of Trest
3x Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1x Noble Hierarch
1x Progenitus
1x Tarmogoyf
1x Vendilion Clique
Instant (15)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
Sorcery (12)
3x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Natural Order
2x Ponder
3x Thoughtseize
1x Sylvan Library
Planeswalker (1)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Land (19)
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Polluted Delta
4x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Abrupt Decay
1x Disfigure
2x Engineered Plague
2x Flusterstorm
2x Kitchen Finks
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Null Rod
This has 1 too many cards but it is a reasonable starting place.
You might also consider picking up some seachrome coasts, razorverge thickets, and/or botanical sanctums to act as pseudo-duals on the early turns when it is most important, and bring your basic count down to 4-5.
Worship: I like the power of the effect, and that it hoses some decks. That is definitely a good characteristic for sideboard cards. That said, I haven't played it, and don't have any plans to test it. If you do, post your results please.
The major change I made to this deck recently was to put 1 sanctum prelate in the sideboard in place of elspeth and a snapcaster mage in the main for my sword of fire and ice. Prelate is outstanding. The snapcaster is great against eldrazi and maverick and very good against delver. I tested Leovold, Emissary of Trest at the Richmond Classic (finished 13th). It was outstanding against Lands and ANT, but generally underwhelming. Since those matchups are already very good, I cut him. He is very good when you are in a proactive posture but poor when you are behind. He might be worth sideboarding, if I can find a way to condense my combo hate a bit more. To play Leovold properly in the main deck the mana base would need some work, for example cutting the wastelands for 2 more fetches a bayou and a savannah and adding the 4rth deathrite... not sure that is worth it.
--- NOPE --- They canceled it, so no support in the Hampton Roads Area at the moment (9/11/16)
I built the sideboard to be solid against Eldrazi and Miracles, hence the second path and two walkers. The second path should have been a dismember (one colorless mana is much better than 1 white). I also found that the opponents running land hate targeted my white sources almost exclusively, so cutting the path and avoiding double white (elspeth) spells is probably a good idea, though miracles won't disrupt your mana. New Tamiyo might be better in that spot, fine against miracles, excellent against shardless, etc... though almost any walker or card advantage spell is probably fine for the purpose.
Round 1: RUG Delver (W 2-0), Started off strong. He started with T1 goose, which is not scary. My dorks were able to give me solid mana. Threw some test spells into the maw of daze and force (stoneforge and clique) to allow me to stick library and TNN. Game 2, Brought in path, decay and flusterstorm. He again started with T1 goose and I was the bigger control deck, sitting back, putting down road blocks and taking him off of green mana.
Round 2: Lands (W 2-0), As I have said, I love this matchup. My opponent had just finished his deck before the tournament so was not yet fluent with the deck. G1 I stuck an early deathrite, followed by library and wasteland. With library I floated white source and plow. When I tapped the wasteland to play a TNN he took his chance on his turn to gamble for one combo piece and rotate for the other, making the 20/20. I untapped used the libary to draw white source + plow and put him up to 35. Wasteland and deathrite meant he never got going again, and I quickly killed him. Game 2 I brought in 2x path, 2x mage, 2x surgical, 1x RIP, 1x invasive surgery, +1 grip, +1 decay. -4 plow, -1 sofai, -3 daze, -2 mystic. Didn't see sideboard cards just built an army and disrupted long enough with waste, deathrite and 2 hard cast forces on life from the loams to keep him from doing anything.
Round 3: UW stoneblade with thought-knot (2-0), He had apparently seen me playing in the earlier rounds and sat down sulking, not wanting to deal with TNN. His mana draws were poor both games so I didn't have to do much. After seeing the decklist, it looks very interesting but I did not get to play against this deck when it was performing well. Game 2 had a memorable blow out where my one-of post board, on-the-draw daze countered his batterskull. He did well for the rest of the day, so the deck likely has chops but when we talked he said it wasn't quite there yet. One to keep an eye on.
Round 4: Eldrazi aggro (2-1), Sitting down I new he was on Eldrazi. Game 1 I mulliganed an ok hand, since I knew it wasn't good in the matchup, and was rewarded with a hand that cast mystic on T2 and was swinging with Jitte on T3. He made a string of chump blockers but couldn't keep the jitte at bay. He showed me two basic wastes in game 1 which I thought was interesting. Game 2, brought in paths (despite the wastes), decay, grip, and garruk, I again mulliganed to 6. Kept trop, waste, deathrite, and his early wasteland took me off colored sources long enough for him to run me over. Game 3 he didn't do a ton. Jitte and TNN were enough.
Round 5: Grixis Delver, turbo angler (2-1), Ben is an outstanding player. I knew he was playing Grixis but was very much caught off guard by a snapcaster in game 1. In game 2 we played a low resource game trading wastelands. Luckily for me he made one glaring error in this game, on my turn I wasted him off of colored lands, but he had an angler and a wasteland of his own in play. He used his waste in his next pre-combat main phase to hit one of my trops. I floated blue. He then attempted to pass into combat. I used my floating mana and noble + second trop to cast clique. He revealed a hand with a decay (which I took), a daze and a polluted delta, along with some other cards he wasn't near casting. Had he played the delta, I could not have cliqued and he almost certainly wins. Game 3 we play another low resource game but I am able to get a better mana footing and TNN plus exalted does the job.
Round 6: D&T (1-2); At this point, I am feeling great, one of only 3 5-0's, paired against another 5-0 and based on the standings we can both double draw in. I do a poor job of explaining this however and my opponent decides he wants to play. I tilt HARD. My opponent is playing the new Thalia which is annoying for my deck, so I attempt to plow it completely missing that my opponent played a Karakas the previous turn. I later miss a vial activation with known information... just a mess. I win game 2 off of a zealous persecution and game 3 he has double waste, double port and a plow for my dork and I never do much. His sword of fire and ice did a lot of work in all three games. Crestfallen, I examine the standings for as long as possible before the next round is called.
Round 7: D&T, ID. When sitting down I know a draw locks in my opponent and puts me at >90% to top 8. Of the people on 15 points I had the highest breakers by a mile (all three categories) and even better against the people with 13 points. My opponent had 16 points, so a draw locked him in for top 8. I took that risk that a draw would put me into 8th rather than 9th (some truly weird breaker stuff would have had to happen). My strong start to the day allowed me to get away with this, making the 8th spot with room to spare.
Top8 :same D&T player from round 6 (2-0), He got me in round 6 but I played these games tight and they were not close. His success with SoFaI and new Thalia in our previous round blinded him somewhat I think. Game one I had a nice play. He had an active mystic (sofai in hand) with 3 mana. I had deathrite, stoneforge, TNN. He attempted to plow my deathrite so I cast daze to put him to a decision, get rid of my deathrite by paying for the daze or activate his mystic this turn. He tanked for a while. Without the daze, he would have been able to force me to chump with my mystic and then would have started getting hits in with the sword, racing my TNN +jitte (in hand). He let me keep the deathrite choosing to get his sword into play. My mystic blocked his so sworded guy the following turn, I then put in and equipped my jitte and attacked getting counters. A chump with my deathrite and string of nobles I drew put him too far behind to recover and a StP for the revoker he eventually put on jitte locked him out a few turns later. Game 2 he started slowly but had a needle for my two deathrites. I found the third deathrite the following turn (sigh). Triple Deathrite beat down accompanied by a string of removal spells and a Kgrip to remove the needle late in the game was enough to get the win. After round 6, I must admit this one felt very good.
Top 4 ANT (2-1), As the 8 seed I was on the draw throughout top 8. I knew he was on ANT, so I was unsurprised when my mediocre 6 card keep and scry to the bottom got killed on T2. Game 2 I mulled to 5 and thought I was truly out of it, but trop, noble, daze, canonist were enough to make my first 2 turns very good. I found a meddling mage for T3 and 2/2 beatdown did the job. Game 3 I had a very solid hand and again including a T2 canonist with counter back up, so when he didn't kill me on T1, I was well positioned and took it relatively easily.
Finals Grixis Delver, turbo angler (1-2) Rematch of round 5. Game 1 I had a strong start but his wasteland, bolt and force all on T2 put me way behind. I was able to stablize at 4 life with a mystic into batterskull and a counterspell for his dismember. G2 I mulled to 6. It was back and forth but he got it. Game 3 I kept a mana heavy hand (2 noble, tundra, trop, wasteland) figuring that as long as he didn't have forked bolt this hand would let me have the mana advantage throughout and I would be in good shape. On his T2 when he wastelanded my tundra and forked bolted both of my nobles I fell way behind. My remaining tropical island didn't cast the string of white spells I drew and when I found another land it was my basic forest. A brainstorm lock a turn later was the writing on the wall. He killed me with 2 gurmag anglers.
Other than losing my head in round 6 I am happy with how I played. I continue to love the deck, and like other deathblade decks it is infinitely tunable which is nice. Putting the same report on the other legacy discussion board.
Edit:
Updated list
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Flooded Strand
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
1x Mystic Gate
3x Plains
1x Polluted Delta
4x Seachrome Coast
4x Ardent Plea
4x Detention Sphere
4x Journey to Nowhere
4x Runed Halo
2x Sigil of the Empty Throne
4x Spreading Seas
4x Ancestral Vision
4x Supreme Verdict
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Meddling Mage
3x Monastery Mentor
2x Pithing Needle
1x Rest in Peace
I love that there is infinite sideboard potential in this deck so you can make powerful metagame calls, including gifts/unburial combo when you are feeling frisky.
2x Arid Mesa
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Flooded Strand
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Hallowed Fountain
2x Island
1x Mystic Gate
2x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
4x Seachrome Coast
4x Ardent Plea
4x Detention Sphere
4x Journey to Nowhere
3x Runed Halo
3x Sigil of the Empty Throne
1x Stormcaller's Boon
1x Dismember
4x Path to Exile
4x Ancestral Vision
3x Supreme Verdict
2x Cryptic Command
3x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Meddling Mage
2x Pithing Needle
1x Rest in Peace